Piggy-Back Keyboard

[Paul Vandervoort]

Okay...

Please note that there are three .pdf files in addition to the photos.

Paul V.

On 8/2/2012 5:11 PM, William Croft wrote:

Paul, I'd encourage you to just post the attachments to the group.  I think there would be wide enough interest and this will also archive them on the Google group site.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Paul Vandervoort <pa...@daskin.com> wrote:

Yes, I did develop a single piggy-back keyboard which I used professionally for many years with a Fender Rhodes electric piano.  I also played numerous conventional pianos with it.  It works quite well.

I recently decided to offer it for sale.  My price for the keyboard (including carrying case) is US$3,000 plus shipping.  I took some color photos of the keyboard last week.  I am sending these and additional info about the keyboard to your email address, since they are several megabytes, and I don't want to clutter the diykeyboard site.  If anyone else would like to view these files, l am happy to send them.

Paul Vandervoort

On 8/2/2012 3:15 PM, David Randolph wrote:

Dear All:

I am new to the group. In reading some past posts, I see references to a "Janko converter." Is this the same thing as the "piggyback unit" envisioned by Paul Vandervoort back in the '70s? From Contemporary Keyboard, December 1976:

Vandervoort is currently developing a piggyback unit to be set on top of any existing keyboard, so that musicians can experiment with his system conveniently and inexpensively.

Was such a unit ever developed? Is there any documented on the process for building one?

I am interested in working on a purely mechanical project like this, which I assume would be similar to what I see at https://sites.google.com/site/stephenmoseson/projects/janko-keyboard. But I would prefer an apparatus that that does not have to be glued to the piano keys, as was apparently done in Stephen's project. Has anyone built anything similar to this?

Many thanks,
Dave

[roy pertchik]

Paul, that's gorgeous!


Roy Pertchik
Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB Cert.
381 Oxford Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306
917 294 6605

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[John Moriarty]

Looks great Paul! :)

This needs to be drawn up in CAD software and 3D printed I think...

[David Randolph]

Dear Paul:

I am in awe. While it would be an honor to own such a brilliantly executed piece of keyboard history, $3K is a bit more than I can afford to spend on this project. Also, buying this gear would leave me without a project to work on. Still, thanks for sharing this. You are my new role model.

I have been looking at Paul Hirsh's piggyback solution (http://www.shapeways.com/model/221854/upright_piano_whole_tone_keyboard_adaptor.html) as something of an inspiration. Has anyone tried these adapters? I can't seem to find any pictures or videos of these actually in use. Does anyone know of any? A different design is displayed at http://improvise.free.fr/pianob.htm. Both of these designs seem like they could inspire some DIY projects. Does anyone have any suggestions for materials/approaches? Or would this be insanely difficult for a ham-fisted newbie like me?

Cheers,
Dave

[PJP...@aol.com]

Hi Paul;

 

I remember you mentioned you could write more detailed instructions on the building of the pictured

"piggy back" (for somewhere around $300.00 USD ?) - beautiful work by the way! - I might still be interested in the "Instructions Book" - ...... - You know I want the new MIDI controller already - ..... - $ is a problem for me now - maybe you could tell me how to make the nordbo into a MIDI controller?

 

regards; PaulPb

 

In a message dated 8/2/2012 9:44:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pa...@daskin.com writes:

Okay...

Please note that there are three .pdf files in addition to the photos.

Paul V.

On 8/2/2012 5:11 PM, William Croft wrote:

Paul, I'd encourage you to just post the attachments to the group.  I think there would be wide enough interest and this will also archive them on the Google group site.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Paul Vandervoort <pa...@daskin.com> wrote:

Yes, I did develop a single piggy-back keyboard which I used professionally for many years with a Fender Rhodes electric piano.  I also played numerous conventional pianos with it.  It works quite well.

I recently decided to offer it for sale.  My price for the keyboard (including carrying case) is US$3,000 plus shipping.  I took some color photos of the keyboard last week.  I am sending these and additional info about the keyboard to your email address, since they are several megabytes, and I don't want to clutter the diykeyboard site.  If anyone else would like to view these files, l am happy to send them.

Paul Vandervoort

On 8/2/2012 3:15 PM, David Randolph wrote:

Dear All:

I am new to the group. In reading some past posts, I see references to a "Janko converter." Is this the same thing as the "piggyback unit" envisioned by Paul Vandervoort back in the '70s? From Contemporary Keyboard, December 1976:

Vandervoort is currently developing a piggyback unit to be set on top of any existing keyboard, so that musicians can experiment with his system conveniently and inexpensively.

Was such a unit ever developed? Is there any documented on the process for building one?

I am interested in working on a purely mechanical project like this, which I assume would be similar to what I see at https://sites.google.com/site/stephenmoseson/projects/janko-keyboard. But I would prefer an apparatus that that does not have to be glued to the piano keys, as was apparently done in Stephen's project. Has anyone built anything similar to this?

Many thanks,
Dave

--

[David Randolph]

In an earlier post, Drew Wagner said this:

I might actually go ahead and design a piggyback that is almost
entirely cardboard.  That could be fun, since it would be cheap to go
through a lot of prototypes, or for someone to build one on a whim.

Drew, did you ever make any headway on this idea? Or with your piggyback design in general?

Cheers,
Dave

[Paul Vandervoort]

Paul PB-

Your message has gotten me to thinking about drawing up piggy-back plans.  I have mixed feelings.  It would take some time, which I would hate to commit right now.  But it looks like I may not have the piggy-back much longer.  It appears I have two possible buyers.

Making the Nordbo a midi controller would be a fun project.  You could cannibalize the sensor printed circuit boards of an existing electronic keyboard.  Each note would have to sound regardless of which of the note's two key levers was pressed.  Hence, you would probably want to mount your mechanical or optical switches on a rail mounted near the wippens, and have the switches tripped by the wippens somehow.  Designing the hardware would be a challenge, but not an insurmountable one.

Paul V.

On 8/3/2012 5:26 PM, PJP...@aol.com wrote:

[Johannes Drinda]

Hi to you Janko enthusiasts,

Yes, it all comes down to an economically viable Janko Kbd adaptation. Most young people haven't got the money to spend on a Janko converted Synth, which (sound-wise) they might not even prefer. I for instance, wouldnt want to sacrifies my Tyros for a lesser Synth, just for the sake of the Janko Kbd layout advantage.
Thus, to enjoy both advantages, I feel compelled devising my own Janko solution.
Cardboard, albeit a very economical option, yet isn't durable. I used cardboard for many of my electronics projects, but a Kbd needs to be robust to endure years of punishment.
So, for me the only promising solution is to go for wooden supports topped with (cheap China made) plastic key tops, resulting in a durable Kbd, with professional look.
Sure, that requires a bit of work... to cut these support bits and place the key tops evenly but the result will save me 1000's of dollars.
I think it would be a good idea to create a standard set of measurement of all wooden support blocks needed, which then only require adjustment in order to adapt to key sizes and key down depths of various Synth keyboards, for not all Synth keys have standard size.
My even greater worry was the lack of a specific Janko notation and I'm glad having overcome that dilemma.

Warm Regards, from Joh in sunny, but cool St'go de Chile
_____________________________________________________
Show me yours and I'll show you mine...  Here's mine:
http://jdrinda.tripod.com/ and http://www.web-und-print-design.de/drinda

---

Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 21:02:20 -0700
From: da...@tuningbell.com
To: diyke...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [diykeyboard] Re: Piggy-Back Keyboard

[David Randolph]

I was primarily interested in the cheap, rapid prototyping potential of cardboard. I think this is a fun idea to boot.

On other fronts, Paul Vandervoort has taken issue with the lack of a shortened interval in your kind of piggy-back. While I protested that the perfect is the enemy of the good, I have to admit that he has a point. And he is my new role model. . . .

So my new plan is to handle this in two phases. First we do a balanced keyboard conversion (a la http://www.balanced-keyboard.com) on some cheap MIDI controller. This has its own virtues and reduces the octave span by one key-width. We then piggyback Janko (in some invasive or noninvasive form) on top of the balanced keyboard. This should also result in a simpler piggyback design and one with the shorter octave reach we all desire.

I was really hoping for a cheap piggyback that would work (however badly) on an acoustic piano, but that seems to be a very ambitious goal, well beyond my current skills to achieve.

Cheers,
Dave


On Thursday, August 2, 2012 8:43:01 PM UTC-5, Paul Vandervoort wrote:

[Joseph Austin]

Once consideration with a Piggy-back conversion vs. a "native" Janko is the resulting key surface width.
The concern is that, if you maintain overall width of the octave, whereas the original white key width is 1/7 octave,
after conversion the key width will be only 1/6 octave--a wider key.
The conversion will preserve the distance (hand-stretch) for intervals such as octave and tenth.

One of the advantages I would hope to gain from the Janko arrangement a more compact keyboard--one more accessible to smaller hands.
In principle, while preserving the key width of 1/7 the original octave, the Janko arrangement could bring an octave and a tenth one key-width closer together,
six key-widths per octave vs. seven.

Of course preserving key-width would also require a similar reduction in the width of the back-end hardware.
I'd assume modifying an existing acoustic instrument would necessitate keeping the original octave width.
But an electronic instrument might be more easily adapted to the more compact arrangement.

I've actually converted a glockenspiel, in which all bars (white and black) were originally the same width, and did save one bar-width per octave.
But I had never played the instrument before, so I can't compare Janko with traditional.

For those of you who have actually played a Janko keyboard, which geometry do you think works better?
Would you choose wider keys, or keys closer together?

Joe Austin
DrTechDaddy.com

[pa...@daskin.com]

-------- Original Message --------
From: Joseph Austin <drtec...@gmail.com>

> For those of you who have actually played a Janko keyboard,
> which geometry do you think works better?
> Would you choose wider keys, or keys closer together?

If you make the keys a little narrower, increasing the space between them to ~5mm, then you can have the best of both worlds.  You can shorten the octave, and increase left-right finger clearance at the same time.

Paul V.
 

[Joseph Austin]

As I said in my previous post, I question whether the "balanced keyboard" approach will actually reduce the span.

Yes, you reduce the span in terms of number of keys, but do you actually reduce the physical distance?

Don't you just end up with more space between the keys?

--unless you do major modification to locater and mounting posts and possibly the hinge and switch mechanisms.

Typically, all keys have the same width at the back, 1/12 the original octave, so regardless of the arrangement, 

they would consume the same total distance along the fallboard.

If there are indeed keyboards that allow the keys to actually be pushed closer together, it would be great if somebody would post that info!

Joe Austin

DrTechDaddy.com

[David Randolph]

Dear Joe:

You are correct. The balanced keyboard's octave distance is the same as a regular keyboard.

I didn't read the fine print on the http://www.balanced-keyboard.com site:

Because these keys occupy the same physical octave width as on the standard keyboard, the Balanced keyboard has a wider bottom-row key spacing. For a Balanced keyboard created by modifying a standard keyboard (as described in the Build one section of this website), this means that the bottom-row keys will have small gaps between them.

I should have known this was too good to be true.

Ah, well, back to the drawing board.

Thanks,
Dave

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[PJP...@aol.com]

Yeah Maybe - I would have to get some help and it would cost - and I have too much to do currently (foaming at the mouth) - you've heard this story before - too much of a challenge for me now!! - but the good news is I'm working on new practice routines for advanced harmonic and melodic patterns (the completion of this writen project is in site) They will work great for guitar, 7-5 and 6-6 piano !! - although they are a bit different on each instrument........

 

At the moment I can't find the file but there were videos on youtube of a guy playing a janko 6-6 piggy back - he was a good player too (his version looked kind of crappy but it worked.) - If I can find that vid I'll post it.

 

Best regards; Paul

 

In a message dated 8/5/2012 12:30:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pa...@daskin.com writes:

Paul PB-

Your message has gotten me to thinking about drawing up piggy-back plans.  I have mixed feelings.  It would take some time, which I would hate to commit right now.  But it looks like I may not have the piggy-back much longer.  It appears I have two possible buyers.

Making the Nordbo a midi controller would be a fun project.  You could cannibalize the sensor printed circuit boards of an existing electronic keyboard.  Each note would have to sound regardless of which of the note's two key levers was pressed.  Hence, you would probably want to mount your mechanical or optical switches on a rail mounted near the wippens, and have the switches tripped by the wippens somehow.  Designing the hardware would be a challenge, but not an insurmountable one.

Paul V.

On 8/3/2012 5:26 PM, PJP...@aol.com wrote:

Hi Paul;

 

I remember you mentioned you could write more detailed instructions on the building of the pictured

"piggy back" (for somewhere around $300.00 USD ?) - beautiful work by the way! - I might still be interested in the "Instructions Book" - ...... - You know I want the new MIDI controller already - ..... - $ is a problem for me now - maybe you could tell me how to make the nordbo into a MIDI controller?

 

regards; PaulPb

 

In a message dated 8/2/2012 9:44:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pa...@daskin.com writes:

Okay...

Please note that there are three .pdf files in addition to the photos.

Paul V.

On 8/2/2012 5:11 PM, William Croft wrote:

Paul, I'd encourage you to just post the attachments to the group.  I think there would be wide enough interest and this will also archive them on the Google group site.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Paul Vandervoort <pa...@daskin.com> wrote:

Yes, I did develop a single piggy-back keyboard which I used professionally for many years with a Fender Rhodes electric piano.  I also played numerous conventional pianos with it.  It works quite well.

I recently decided to offer it for sale.  My price for the keyboard (including carrying case) is US$3,000 plus shipping.  I took some color photos of the keyboard last week.  I am sending these and additional info about the keyboard to your email address, since they are several megabytes, and I don't want to clutter the diykeyboard site.  If anyone else would like to view these files, l am happy to send them.

Paul Vandervoort

On 8/2/2012 3:15 PM, David Randolph wrote:

Dear All:

I am new to the group. In reading some past posts, I see references to a "Janko converter." Is this the same thing as the "piggyback unit" envisioned by Paul Vandervoort back in the '70s? From Contemporary Keyboard, December 1976:

Vandervoort is currently developing a piggyback unit to be set on top of any existing keyboard, so that musicians can experiment with his system conveniently and inexpensively.

Was such a unit ever developed? Is there any documented on the process for building one?

I am interested in working on a purely mechanical project like this, which I assume would be similar to what I see at https://sites.google.com/site/stephenmoseson/projects/janko-keyboard. But I would prefer an apparatus that that does not have to be glued to the piano keys, as was apparently done in Stephen's project. Has anyone built anything similar to this?

Many thanks,
Dave --

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[David Randolph]

My new plan is to build on top of a Korg microKEY 37, which (according to http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/roundup-mini-keys/14481) has keys that are 3/4" wide. If my math is correct, this should get us in the ballpark of a reasonable Janko octave length (5.14 inches, center-to-center).

You can peek into the guts of this mini-keyboard at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsn73Rh5eng. (And it is nice to know that there is an easy mod to add a sustain pedal to the thing.)

I still plan to try the balanced-keyboard conversion first. Then, when my Janko piggyback is in place, I can cannibalize this keyboard for keys to convert the 61-key microKEY model. So there is even an upgrade path in this scenario.

What does everyone think about this idea? Is it worth 80 bucks to hack on this thing? Or should I consider something else?

Cheers,
Dave

[Joseph Austin]

Paul,

I'm not sure I understand.

On my piano, a 12-key chromatic octave at the fall board is 165 mm,  13.75 mm  per key

and at the front, 6 white keys are 140 mm (about 5.5 inches), 23.33 mm  per key,

How does the 5 mm spacing fit into that?

Are you saying the individual playing surfaces should be about 18 mm with 5 mm space between?

Joe Austin

DrTechDaddy.com

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[Joseph Austin]

Dave,

Seems like a reasonable approach--can't wait to hear how it turns out!

Joe Austin

DrTechDaddy.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diykeyboard...@googlegroups.com

[Paul Vandervoort]

On 8/8/2012 5:33 PM, Joseph Austin wrote:
> Paul,
> I'm not sure I understand.
> On my piano, a 12-key chromatic octave at the fall board is 165 mm,
> 13.75 mm per key
> and at the front, 6 white keys are 140 mm (about 5.5 inches), 23.33 mm
> per key,
>
> How does the 5 mm spacing fit into that?
> Are you saying the individual playing surfaces should be about 18 mm
> with 5 mm space between?

Yes.

Paul V.

[roy pertchik]

Hi Paul,

Looking at the photos of your piggy back, am I reading right: the span
of an octave on the piggy back takes advantage of the rearrangement
(elimination of "gaps" between e/f and b/c) so the octave span is
smaller. Is that right? The back of the piggy back fans out to align
with the 7+5 spacing?
Also, in your photo, it looks like the black notes are narrower.. but
I suspect that's an illusion and that they are all the same width. Is
that right?

Roy Pertchik
Design and Construction Consultant
NYS Arch., NCARB Cert.
381 Oxford Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306
917 294 6605

[Paul Vandervoort]

On 8/8/2012 6:46 PM, roy pertchik wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Looking at the photos of your piggy back, am I reading right: the span
> of an octave on the piggy back takes advantage of the rearrangement
> (elimination of "gaps" between e/f and b/c) so the octave span is
> smaller. Is that right? The back of the piggy back fans out to align
> with the 7+5 spacing?

Yes. the octave on the piggy-back is 128mm (5.05")

> Also, in your photo, it looks like the black notes are narrower.. but
> I suspect that's an illusion and that they are all the same width. Is
> that right?

They are all the same width: 13.3mm (0.523")

Paul V.

[Andrew Wagner]

Hi Dave,

Not much more headway on the cardboard prototype, no. Here was the
Youtube video I posted about it if you haven't found it yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3HLZ1zs12g&feature=g-upl

The asymptote code for the key profiles is up on github:

https://github.com/drewm1980/asygears

The actual code is in key.asy.

After generating the hard part of the profile I manually moved some
stuff around in inkscape. key_manually_edited.pdf is the file I
printed on the laser cutter. I used double-sided tape to hold the
mockup together. To finish the carboard prototype, you could make a
couple carboard pieces that look like combs, maybe just use a thin
section of the key that bends as the pivot, and use some rubber bands
for springs.

Sorry the repository is not well named; originally I was tinkering
with the idea of using specially curved gears as the junction between
the key and a hammer for a weighted action. The idea was that you
could get pretty much any relationship between the two rotation angles
you wanted, so you could customize the feel of the keyboard as well as
the geometry. I actually succeeded in figuring out how to generate
such curves... but it would be hard to do in cardboard, and I decided
to simplify things :)

Fork it and play around with it if you like programming.

Cheers,
Andrew

[Joh Drinda]

I believe the Janko Kbd layout to offer hobby musicians the easiest way to learn and play musical instrument. I mean most of us don't aim to be a professional musician and prefer to forget about practicing scales and chords. I even converted an old 120-button accordion bass to MIDI for my Tyros3. See my accomplished Janko project, here: https://app.box.com/s/dtpe44vqqifz9xuanc1t851q8dxwgmfo