Moderators of this list

[Josiah Zayner]

Are there any moderators of this list? If not can we make some.

Do the people who moderate read this list on a regular basis? If not please find someone who does to help.

That sexual harassment post is out of control please do something about it.

[Alex]

+1

Whether the allegations on either side are real or not, this is not email list business. Take it to legal council.

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[Alex]

*counsel

[Koeng]

+1

I agree. 

[Alexey Zaytsev]

Is it still going on?! Muted it weeks ago.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/54aeeda1-2d00-44d1-99f7-085e0fbc12e4%40googlegroups.com.

[Nathan McCorkle]

Moderation is for spam, which the aforementioned post doesn't seem like.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CAB9v_DFuR%2BQEB7RjVP_3iY-1mVs0tjAf%3DiMRzWoEWngpw1KGnw%40mail.gmail.com.

[leaking pen]

I think it WAS something important to bring to the attention of the community, and crap like this can't get fixed if we don't talk about it.  but tis just turning into a soap opera. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CAKgQa2NQo7vWQ1oU5qe2WBsXib%2BLUk2cyDuEnwarwZ_A9oLvvA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Josiah Zayner]

Moderators can lock discussions to prevent more posting or delete topics or posts.

If you are suggesting that the only reason somethign should be locked or deleted is if it is spam I disagree. This Jen person is using people's names and defaming them on the internet and using _Our_ mailing list to do this.

Personally, I don't want to see _Our_ mailing list turn into a place that people use to start drama or accuse people of things or make drama.

[Alex]

I think if we wanted a legitimate discussion, it started off and proceeded completely wrong. When looking to have a discussion you don't start out attacking people and being combative.

You're correct that this is an important issue. However, turning the harassment around and making it public is not the proper way to talk about it.

If we want to have a legitimate discussion about it, I propose a different thread with more general discussion instead of one who's main goal seems to be to shut down some fair.

Alex

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CAFaFt-Q6Q4K881m613yzNVi7tk3rp-ebbBVw3-1d_zLqCQhgKA%40mail.gmail.com.

[TeMPOraL]

On 20 June 2014 18:55, Josiah Zayner <josiah...@gmail.com> wrote:

Moderators can lock discussions to prevent more posting or delete topics or posts.

One little nitpick - they can't exactly do that. This is a mailing group, not a forum board; once a message is sent (and not auto-classified as spam), it ends up in peoples' inboxes and stays there, and can be replied to.

But otherwise I agree; this Jen thread has jumped the shark a long time ago.

Jacek Złydach,
http://temporal.pr0.pl/devblog | http://esejepg.pl | http://hackerspace-krk.pl

TRC - Bringing you tomorrow's solutions yesterday.

[Cathal (phone)]

I originally felt it should be aired, and I'm glad the list was open to discussion. But, I don't see any scope for improvement or mediation on this list anymore, it's turned into "We said, they said" with nebulous legal and social threats. Some of which seems wildly collateral-damage and against the spirit of this community.

At this point I don't think it's helping anyone, nor encouraging exemplary thought or openness to frank discussion. This isn't frankness anymore, just anger.

--
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[John Griessen]

On 06/20/2014 12:12 PM, Alex wrote:
> I propose a different thread with more general discussion instead of one who's main goal seems to be to shut down some fair.

Yes, and also let Jen keep posting to the list. Just don't respond.

[Jason Bobe]

On Friday, June 20, 2014 11:39:08 AM UTC-4, Josiah Zayner wrote:

Are there any moderators of this list? If not can we make some.

Do the people who moderate read this list on a regular basis? If not please find someone who does to help.

Yes, there are currently 2 moderators (Mac Cowell and myself).  Up to this point, moderation has been geared nearly 100% toward eliminating spam -- we average about 1 spambot per day.  Our only mailing list policy is that everyone's first post is held for moderation until it is reviewed by someone (typically me, typically within 24 hours). This very light moderation has worked OK for 6 years.  

This dispute is very serious and challenging in many ways for many people.  It is not clear cut to me what the appropriate actions are for the mailing list moderators in this case. It does not seem appropriate to me to ban future discussion on the matter or ban people who do choose to discuss it. It is very clear that we need to invest in moderation best practices and governance / guidelines as the list grows, as well as seek more input on this specific case.  Any recommendations for advisors or resources is very welcome.

Jason Bobe

[Josiah Zayner]

I don't think anyone was talking about banning. But what about locking the post because it is escalating and Jen is divulging personal information which itself could be considered harassment. By doing nothing you are allowing harassment to take place. 

A civil discussion about Harassment would be great but that post is not that. The post has little to nothing to do with DIY Bio or anyone who regularly participates in the mailing list.

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[Cathal (phone)]

+1 for not wanting anyone banned if avoidable. But I do think topic moderation is important to maintain the integrity and community of a list. I also follow the cypherpunks mailing list, and their "no moderation ever" approach is pretty spectacular in terms of flame-to-signal ratio.

Put another way: you moderate spam because it is a form of list abuse. If a discussion also fits the definition of "list abuse", then it stands to reason that it also deserves curation or moderation. It's up to you whether a discussion counts as list-abuse, of course.

[Dakota Hamill]

This one recent thread aside, I think the approach Jason and Mac have used has worked well.  I've never seen any problems over the past 4-5 years I've been on here, and it's actually the best list I've ever been a part of.  Many other lists and forums are filled with trolls and keyboard warriors and mods who seem to abuse their internet power because their own lives are miserable.  

I really hope there are no changes to the hierarchy (or lack there-of which seems to work out even better) on here. 

If it ain't broken don't fix it

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[Alex]

+1

Jen's is the first off-topic, hostile thread I've seen.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CAGdeWmSewYFW5eZpupC1Bf%2BT4CnC3er_yLBV7GfQDuipex1q2A%40mail.gmail.com.

[TeMPOraL]

+1, I don't think anything should be changed because of this incident; it worked well before and even the Jen thread developed much more politely than I expected.

Jacek Złydach
http://temporal.pr0.pl/devblog | http://hackerspace-krk.pl | http://esejepg.pl
(Wysłane z telefonu / sent from a phone)

[Cathal Garvey]

This list has a pretty good signal:noise ratio, and if it stays that way
generally then keep doing what's done. But cars are pretty safe until
other cars ram them, too. If someone(s) start making the list an
unfriendly place, then it falls to the mods to maintain the normally
high-signal, high-friendly quotient by intervening.

There is more to this than the noise:signal ratio in our inboxes,
though; I could easily add filters to my mail client (and do so often
enough, especially WRT to cypherpunks list..), but if someones are
posting public defamations on the list then it's harmful to them no
matter whether or not it affects my mail experience.

Now, public defamation is the risk you take for allowing free
discussion, especially of difficult topics. But if it becomes clear that
recourse is being sought and official or conventional channels are
agreed upon by both sides as in this case.. then the continued use of
the list for either or both sides to continue a catfight is no longer,
in my view, something worth enduring.

Preferable to changing the moderation system would be if both sides of
this dispute held to their agreement to seek mediation and cease using
public lists for broadsiding emails.

--
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P: +353876363185
W: http://indiebiotech.com

[Nathan McCorkle]

In the 'Jen thread' she makes up ~1/3 of the posts, this seems fine. Other list members have since split that main thread a few times. Maybe I'm fine because I use Gmail so all similarly titled emails show up only as a single row in my inbox, but I see no reason to fuss about this from a signal to noise perspective.

[Frank Pedersen]

First, my apologies for my spelling, i'm not a US native. Also apologies for writing more to this topic, but I feel I have to express a few related words.

Perhaps it would be more accepted to post things like that here if her accusations where true and there really was a problem, and not fabricated in her twisted mind and need to be center of attention. But make no mistake about her motivations, she post these things here only with the soul purpose to harm certain people and futher gain her own attention.

Seen in that perspective I personal can't understand the acceptance of her such posting in a large public mailinglist when it harms innocent people.

Seen from my seat, the obvious irony is that Jen is accusing the people in Labitat / Biologigaragen for harassment, when she is doing quite the job herself on harassing people with an infinite long flow of mails on numerous mailing lists and private mails - now going on for last couple of month - escalating to random lies, slander and threats.

Ofcourse none of her accusations is true, we are just beyond speecklessness and dead tired from her endless mails and accusations and some members including myself is running out of patience from pure frustration - It simply affects our dailylife, worklife too much - and seeing that she can just freely post whatever she pleases without some kind of moderating, it is just too much on some peoples nerves.

I personal stand by my words and guarantee that no one here that I know of have done any 'bulling' or 'harassment' thoughts her. Ofcourse people get's angry in the end, but we asked her to leave us alone numerous times. Yet she does not listen to reason, it's her world, and her world only.

This morning at work I received an long personal mail from her with endless twisted nonsense, I got angry and replied with large letters that she should seek professional help and never contact me again. Maybe that was over the top, but really, people have ther limits! Then she twists it around and writes almost the same back to me, and accuse me for having a quite harassing behavior. Everything get's twisted around here to make it look like she is a victim from the horrible people in Copenhagen Hackerspaces. It's the most sick game I have ever witnessed in my 41 years of life for sure.

I was not going to write about the specifics, only general about the moderation part. But it is hard to explain without telling anything. So again, my apologies for that.

Finally, I suggest that people just try to ignore her, or simply moderate her as was done in the Labitat primary mailing list.

Happy hacking & cheers,

Frank, Labitat.

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[John Griessen]

On 06/20/2014 06:26 PM, Frank Pedersen wrote:
> This morning at work I received an long personal mail from her with endless twisted nonsense, I got angry and replied with large
> letters that she should seek professional help and never contact me again.

Without being able to understand the whole thing going on, I would stop communicating with her,
or maybe land in jail. Too not respond is a reasonable path to take when you cannot understand
what someone wants, and don't know anything that would definitely help them.

[Jen Kotila]

I am way too busy with ESOF right now to deal with this thread but the response I sent to Frank was not intended to be sent to him personally, but rather to the new list "Space" which is for discussing such matters. The way that list is set up, if you just hit reply it replies to the individual, not the whole list (which is how Labitat Discuss works). 

I sent Frank an email stating that I have felt harassed by him ever since I came forward as every time I post something, he leaps all over me and says horrible things. See:

 http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/discuss/2014-May/013563.html

http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/discuss/2014-May/013563.html

http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/space/2014-June/000012.html

There are more, too. I was polite in my responses and asked him if he wanted to sit down and talk with me about the matter and he refused. No one who has sat down with me thinks I am lying. No one who's talked with me thinks I am. Frank is well known to have some issues in lab and everyone told me to just leave him be. In fact, some who said this said that they bully him and he doesn't even notice it. The implication being that he is perhaps not the most socially savvy among us. (It also shows just how fucked up Labitat's culture is, however, as the guys who told me that were laughing about it.) 

I feel very strongly that people who refuse to discuss this matter generally have preconceived notions and it wouldn't matter in any case if they did sit and talk. I feel that way about Cathal and Josiah here, frankly. Cathal is more sophisticated but Josiah could be Frank's clone. 

Also, it is very, very. VERY common for misogynists to try to silence victims of harassment by using tactics such as 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/You%27re_the_bully

and 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Harming_the_community

This is what Frank has done to me from the start, without listening to me at all and calling me horrible names and attacking me at every turn on the mailing list. 

He wrote this:

I honestly don't care about you and your bullshit story's. Go get some professional help, stop bordering people! AND STOP WASTING MY TIME AND DON'T WRITE ME AGAIN! CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?!! Some of us have real jobs and don't have time for your harassment.

I wrote this:

Jen Kotila <jen.ko...@gmail.com>	20 Jun (2 days ago)
to Frank

I will very gladly cease and desist all further interaction with you and hereby formally request that you do the same to me. I would like you to stop contacting me and to stop interacting with me. For the record, I consider your behavior to be quite harassing but since I have a very thick skin I am letting it go. 

Mvh, 

After this new bout of cyberharassment, all of which has been 100% instigated by him (I only ever send responses to him, I NEVER initiate email contact and that is a stone cold fact) and mine are all relatively nice in tone while his are nasty and aggressive) I asked told the board I had asked him to cease and desist contact with me and that he ignored that (he mailed me once again after I sent that mail-- which I ignored) 

It would be hilarious if it weren't so downright fucked up. Labitat has about 50 active members. I am the one of two active women. The other one is in a committed relationship with a board member. You do the math. 

Sexual harassment is very common in hackerspaces. It's an epidemic, in fact. http://missionlocal.org/2013/12/combating-sexual-harassment-in-tech/ It's also common for a victim to be mobbed and my supporters warned me that things like Frank's response might happen. 

It needs to stop or this DIY open knowledge movement will fail. 

This experiment here on DIYbio was a good run to run and I think we all learned a lot. I think that it is not the right forum for specifics and if the other side refrains from posting theirs, I will put mine here: opendiscrimination.org from now on. DIYbio ended up being a lot like Discuss, the loud macho agressive people shouting everyone else down. opendiscrimination.org would provide a safe space for victims to speak out. 

I started that organization in response to this lack in hacking's culture. We have no HR. When a victim of harassment comes forward within a community filled with misogynists like Frank and gets mobbed (there are many good people down there who believe me but are just less vocal), they have to have somewhere else to turn for justice BEFORE heading for court. Also the whole "innocent until proven guilty" is a silencing tactic too: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Innocent_until_proven_guilty

• not all harmful actions actually being illegal in the first place (for example, many jurisdictions only make sexual harassment an offense in the workplace, if then)
• the considerable time, energy and monetary burden assumed by victims who report harmful acts, in interacting with the police, lawyers and the judicial system
• evidence of considerable underreporting of harm to oppressed groups, lack of prosecution when reported, and low rates of conviction when tried
• the nation-state is a very powerful entity, typically having effectively unlimited financial resources and reserving the right to commit violence to itself, against which almost any individual person has a considerable disadvantage. It makes sense to hold such an entity to extremely strict burden of proof in exercising its power, relative to, say, a geek conference or meetup!
• the fact that in fact it may even benefit the perpetrator to face social and/or professional censure, relative to punishment by the state

In practice, insisting that the geek community only censure those who have been found guilty of harm in a court of law limits censure to a very very small number of people relative to the number of harassers and abusers within it (and within society in general).

This refrain of "go to court, go to court, go to court" is ludicrous and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the open knowledge ethos. Before I proceed, again, I have consulted with four different lawyers and they think that my case is very strong and I can countersue for libel and slander as well as charge for harassment and discrimination if I want to. 

I want to work it out in any way other than that if possible for many reasons, but prime among them are my convictions that open knowledge has the possiblity to change the world for the infinite better if it is managed properly. Open knowledge should be the alternative to the traditional structures. IF it is, we should try to solve conflicts like this as internally as possible and there should be another level to appeal to when things go really wrong in an open knowledge organization.  

DIYbio.org is not that forum, as has become clear from running this experiment. Neither was Discuss, Space didn't work either (we created that in Labitat to provide safer forum to talk about this on, but Frank and co. stormed in and made it a shouting match again). What happened here is what happened at home-- some support up front who got scared off when conflict was started by misogynists who start doubting and attacking. Yep. Same pattern. Not so heartening for open knowledge, but maybe just an artifact of the anonymity of mailing lists and the fact that the more functional and socially skilled someone is the more likely they are to believe me and the less likely they are to spend a lot of time engaging in flame wars on internet forums. They have lives outside of this mess. 

 opendiscrimination.org could be an alternative to help prevent the victim from further attacks in the naming and shaming process. More attacks aren't remotely helpful when someone is hurt and suffering and everyone who's done that ought to be damned ashamed of himself if he has any decency whatsoever. Hell, even if, nah-- ESPECIALLY -if- I were actually a "crazy" person you should be kind or try to. The lack of empathy in some humans is a terrifying thing and it does make me wonder if a truly open world is possible as how does THAT systemic problem get fixed?

Well, now I am getting too philosophical. 

I have no time for further input into this discussion here. I will learn from how my supporters ran away and didn't fight the aggressive misogynistic trolls here or on Discuss and thus only post about this in safe spaces from now on UNLESS they post in public and then I will respond. 

Then again, I did get some wonderful support here and some people went WAY out of their way to send incredibly thoughtful letters, to write to IF and Science in the City, to give encouragement, etc and that was great! I am sorry if I didn't thank some of you individually, I have been very busy and overwhelmed lately. I want to make time to do that soon, and I hope to find it after ESOF. I apologize for the delay.  

This whole movement is one big experiment. It's one of the most profound and the most risky that humanity has ever run. If we allow it to get overrun with the wrong elements in this early stage it will fail. If it is normal that women get harassed and then mobbed to the point where they leave the movement or feel compelled to start woman only hackerspaces, it will fail. If we can only openly discuss SOME things relating to it openly but not others, it will fail. If it cannot recognize its flaws and work to better them, it will fail. 

I don't want to see it fail. I want to see it grow and thrive. We need to fix this horrifying systemic problem in some way. I invite anyone who is interested in helping with that to get engaged and hack the culture by working with us at opendiscriminaton.org , not just by hacking biology. 

Regards,

Jen

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[Frank Pedersen]

Goodness.. interesting story. Well I can only shake my head.

/Frank

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[John Griessen]

On 06/21/2014 07:31 PM, Jen Kotila wrote:
> shows just how fucked up Labitat's

Please just stop Jen

[Josiah Zayner]

Seriously Jen, please stop. 

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[Maria Chavez]

I will weigh in, that to me this topic has been beaten to death and let's move on.

Maria

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[unsubscribe]

To moderators (Jason and Mac),

pls stop harassment and defamation on the mailing list! This is a typical case of cyberbullying and you're doing the entire DIYbio community disservice but allowing this to continue. Here is a good guide on  How to Lower the Risks of Defamation in Your Online Forum

I have nothing to do with this case but I'm posting from throwaway account, as I'm afraid this mentally unstable person might chase any random stranger on the internetz at will. 

To Kopenlab guys, stay strong!

Skaal from New York

[Bob Hartford]

Jen,

I'm sorry to say this like this but, if this is how you act on a regular basis, I can see why people give you a hard time. Regardless of gender...

I'm not looking for a fight. I'm just advising. This is not how you get people on your side.

Zim

I am way too busy with ESOF right now to deal with this thread but the response I sent to Frank was not intended to be sent to him personally, but rather to the new list "Space" which is for discussing such matters. The way that list is set up, if you just hit reply it replies to the individual, not the whole list (which is how Labitat Discuss works). 

I sent Frank an email stating that I have felt harassed by him ever since I came forward as every time I post something, he leaps all over me and says horrible things. See:

 http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/discuss/2014-May/013563.html

http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/discuss/2014-May/013563.html

http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/space/2014-June/000012.html

There are more, too. I was polite in my responses and asked him if he wanted to sit down and talk with me about the matter and he refused. No one who has sat down with me thinks I am lying. No one who's talked with me thinks I am. Frank is well known to have some issues in lab and everyone told me to just leave him be. In fact, some who said this said that they bully him and he doesn't even notice it. The implication being that he is perhaps not the most socially savvy among us. (It also shows just how fucked up Labitat's culture is, however, as the guys who told me that were laughing about it.) 

I feel very strongly that people who refuse to discuss this matter generally have preconceived notions and it wouldn't matter in any case if they did sit and talk. I feel that way about Cathal and Josiah here, frankly. Cathal is more sophisticated but Josiah could be Frank's clone. 

Also, it is very, very. VERY common for misogynists to try to silence victims of harassment by using tactics such as 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/You%27re_the_bully

and 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Harming_the_community

This is what Frank has done to me from the start, without listening to me at all and calling me horrible names and attacking me at every turn on the mailing list. 

He wrote this:



I honestly don't care about you and your bullshit story's. Go get some professional help, stop bordering people! AND STOP WASTING MY TIME AND DON'T WRITE ME AGAIN! CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?!! Some of us have real jobs and don't have time for your harassment.

I wrote this:





Jen Kotila <jen.ko...@gmail.com>

20 Jun (2 days ago)







to Frank



I will very gladly cease and desist all further interaction with you and hereby formally request that you do the same to me. I would like you to stop contacting me and to stop interacting with me. For the record, I consider your behavior to be quite harassing but since I have a very thick skin I am letting it go. 

Mvh, 

After this new bout of cyberharassment, all of which has been 100% instigated by him (I only ever send responses to him, I NEVER initiate email contact and that is a stone cold fact) and mine are all relatively nice in tone while his are nasty and aggressive) I asked told the board I had asked him to cease and desist contact with me and that he ignored that (he mailed me once again after I sent that mail-- which I ignored) 

It would be hilarious if it weren't so downright fucked up. Labitat has about 50 active members. I am the one of two active women. The other one is in a committed relationship with a board member. You do the math. 

Sexual harassment is very common in hackerspaces. It's an epidemic, in fact. http://missionlocal.org/2013/12/combating-sexual-harassment-in-tech/ It's also common for a victim to be mobbed and my supporters warned me that things like Frank's response might happen. 

It needs to stop or this DIY open knowledge movement will fail. 

This experiment here on DIYbio was a good run to run and I think we all learned a lot. I think that it is not the right forum for specifics and if the other side refrains from posting theirs, I will put mine here: opendiscrimination.org from now on. DIYbio ended up being a lot like Discuss, the loud macho agressive people shouting everyone else down. opendiscrimination.org would provide a safe space for victims to speak out. 

I started that organization in response to this lack in hacking's culture. We have no HR. When a victim of harassment comes forward within a community filled with misogynists like Frank and gets mobbed (there are many good people down there who believe me but are just less vocal), they have to have somewhere else to turn for justice BEFORE heading for court. Also the whole "innocent until proven guilty" is a silencing tactic too: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Innocent_until_proven_guilty

not all harmful actions actually being illegal in the first place (for example, many jurisdictions only make sexual harassment an offense in the workplace, if then)the considerable time, energy and monetary burden assumed by victims who report harmful acts, in interacting with the police, lawyers and the judicial systemevidence of considerable underreporting of harm to oppressed groups, lack of prosecution when reported, and low rates of conviction when triedthe nation-state is a very powerful entity, typically having effectively unlimited financial resources and reserving the right to commit violence to itself, against which almost any individual person has a considerable disadvantage. It makes sense to hold such an entity to extremely strict burden of proof in exercising its power, relative to, say, a geek conference or meetup!the fact that in fact it may even benefit the perpetrator to face social and/or professional censure, relative to punishment by the state

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[Jen Kotila]

Dear David, 

I have thought a lot about the criticism of my tone and my methods. The "you catch more flies with honey" line is another common silencing tactic relating to tone. 

My tone is that of someone who has faced abuse for many months. My methods are those of a despearte victim of oppression seeking justice by any means necessary. This quote from Malcolm X resonates with me.

"Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society."

 I can tell you that I never act like this UNLESS I am tortured emotionally. Which is not often and NEVER before in any job or organization I have been a part of. NEVER. I worked at a large and very well respected NGO for a decade. When I left that job, the whole staff from the janitors to the director and EVERYONE in between came to my going away party to wish me farewell. I have many letters from colleagues saying they'd miss me. Ditto for the other two organizations I am a part of here in Copenhagen: Science and Cocktails and a friend's business, which I helped him and two other guys and a bunch of their friends physically build and is now the top ranked of its category in the city. I still have a key there and they thanked me profusely for my help. In fact, I put in more hours than anyone else there in January and Feburary when it was new. 

I live to help my friends. I am financially independent and have no profit motive. I only want to help. This threatened Malthe and Emil who wanted the spotlight to themselves and this is one small part, I think of why they harassed me. I actually HATE this, I don't like the spotlight. I prefer being in a supporting role. 

Read my couchsurfing profile to see who I am . 

But there is no way in good conscience I can be silent on this matter when it is so deeply systemic  in this movement that could be revolutionary. If this movement keeps ok'ing the harassment and discrimination of women, it WILL die. Openness can only become functional via equality. I am no MLK, I am Malcolm FUCKING X. I scare the master in his nice manor home because I am free and beholden to anyone for any damn thing. I demand to be regonized as a human and to be given the respect due to me, due to ALL of us, regardless of gender, race, sex, creed, whatever. Until that happens, nothing in this world will function properly. I promise you that. 

Another quote from X: 

“Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.”

― Malcolm X

Change, it is a comin'. It's been needed for a long time. I might not win this public fight, I might terrify too many closelt and open misogynists in this process. I do not care one whit. 

I close with this:

The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you are going to lose, because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins. In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing – for the sheer fun and joy of it – to go right ahead and fight, knowing you’re going to lose. You mustn’t feel like a martyr. You’ve got to enjoy it.

–I.F. Stone

I enjoy it if it lets someone else win, even if I do not. We need this change. We need to stop pretending it doesn't happen and then defending those who perpetrate it. 

Jen

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[Alexey Zaytsev]

Please stop.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CAO5_%3Dmgc-rJECWikmQ1iLpR5BXgyfuMt1kY0Z6HSbGNkaPnz7Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Frank Pedersen]

I have read everything Jen posted online, it took me about 12 - 14 hours :-( Everything is twisted to her favor, stating prove for things, situations that does not give prove of anything. The tone that Jen is facing now is and have never been anything to do with what she claims is harassment and bullying! It is nearly the outcome of how she have chosen to repeatedly attack and accuse people online. She have not a single person to state her claims. End of story!

It is alarming in very way; people who crave so much to be center of attention and highlight and claim only ther' own good sides and others bad mistakes etc.

If you want peace in this group, moderation is the only solution, cus she will never stop.

Over and out,

Frank

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[John Griessen]

On 06/22/2014 05:39 AM, Jen Kotila wrote:
> My methods are those of a desperate victim of oppression seeking justice by any means necessary.

Then go stomp others' rights and break list rules and perhaps laws somewhere else -- (please.)

No desperado victims wanted for DIYBIO discussions.

[Alex]

+1

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[Nathan McCorkle]

On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Jen Kotila <jen.ko...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't want to see it fail. I want to see it grow and thrive. We need to fix this horrifying systemic problem in some way.

If the people you were hanging out with suck, and those weird people were tolerated by the rest of the group where you were, why did you keep going back to a place where such negativity wasn't addressed and corrected? Why didn't you make sure only to go to the maker/hacker/lab space in shared company while someone you trusted was present? Why didn't you tell us to watch ourselves sooner?

Sending out pages and pages to an internet list is not the solution. We all agree that science is awesome and we love to study it, but who hasn't experienced falling asleep when studying from a seemingly endless text-book? We get that something is wrong, but we're not a legal team... we can't verify any of this and what can we do other than heed your warning? Some people are more risk-seeking, or maybe more defensive, or maybe more vulnerable. If this was an assault issue, you probably should have contacted your local police immediately.

So IMO, if something weird happens and it seems like it might be possible for it to happen again to others, please let us know. Keep things succinct, otherwise people who glance or skim the mailing list won't miss warnings.

Thanks for letting us know, please keep us updated as/if new details/resolutions/incidents emerge.

P.S. In the U.S.A. we have a national database of sexual crimes offenders, so we take this kind of thing very seriously here:

National Sex
Offender Public Website

http://www.nsopw.gov/en/Home/About

Help and Support for Victims

http://www.nsopw.gov/en/Education/HelpSupport

[Rikke Rasmussen]

Jen: I would love to have the opportunity (I live in SF and visit Copenhagen annually) to sit down with you and hear your story through, end to end. It seems clear that you feel badly wronged, and I try to keep an open mind as to who or what has caused you to feel this way. I also think that as a woman deeply rooted in academia and technology, I understand what is like to be on the receiving end of The Evils of The Patriarchy(TM), as well as the fierce desire to avenge all those myriad slights and injustices. However: all that said, I still have to second the requests that you cease using this list as a medium for your campaign. To paraphrase Goethe:

<i>"She who fights with monsters should take heed that she herself does not become a monster."</i>

Nathan: +1 - always succint, always on point.

/Rikke

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