DIY Telomere Length Test?

[Cory Geesaman]

Is there a reliable way to test telomere length at home?  Are any procedures written up on the process that someone knows of offhand?

[SC]

http://lifelength.com

 

This can't be legit, though. They claim an resolution of 200 bp, which isn't even close to possible with in situ chromosomes.

[Avery louie]

you could try to talk to the guys at telome.  ccing one of them in this thread.

--A

On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 7:47 PM, SC <stac...@yahoo.com> wrote:

http://lifelength.com

 

This can't be legit, though. They claim an resolution of 200 bp, which isn't even close to possible with in situ chromosomes.

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[Alex Hoekstra]

TeloMe!

www.telome.com

$149 will get you a basic test, which reports an average telomere length; $299 for a premium test which reveals the full distribution of telomeres.  (The proportion of telomeres that fall below a certain length [3kb or shorter] is a strong indicator of health and senescence, and something that anyone taking a telomerase-activator or other telomere-regulating therapy should pay close attention to.)

I work for the company, and am thus obviously biased, but frankly I think it stands on its own.  In fact, I know it does.

All of our tests are saliva-based, rather than blood, and substantially less expensive than our competitors.  We mail you a saliva collection it, including a prepaid return envelope, and you send us back your samples.  We process your results and report back within weeks (right now we estimate about eight, but we're working to reduce that substantially).

Let me know if you have any questions or if I can be of any help.  I'd be happy to get you taken care of.

=)

[SC]

Wow.  This is a ridiculous scam.  Shame on you.

 

I just forwarded the URL to the FDA medical fraud division. 

[Alex Hoekstra]

Whoa.  What?

A scam?  How so?  What are you talking about?

Seriously, what gave you that impression?  I promise you that there's nothing remotely scam-like about TeloMe.  We've been in business since 2010, but have only recently begun offering our saliva-based telomere testing.

What are your concerns?  Hopefully I can address them, if you'll let me.

[Josiah Zayner]

How is the testing performed to determine telomere length?

[Alex Hoekstra]

Our technology constitutes a high-throughput adaptation of the TRF approach to telomere measurement.  We'd be happy to discuss our tech in greater detail in the near future but we are currently filing additional IP protections and cannot provide more details on the analysis tech at this time. Our analyses are done on DNA from saliva samples, which allows for simple, at-home collections and ambient shipping both domestic and internationally. More details about TeloMe - including an outline of
the difference between our Basic and Premium tests - are available on our website (http://www.telome.com/order/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=7).

[Cathal Garvey (Tablet)]

So, when can we stop discussing some patented corporate approach and resume the diy discussion suggested in the title? I, for one, don't hang around here to be marketed patented products; this is DIYbio.

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Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[vrgopal]

This is an open forum ...no need to hold back ....Many corporate researchers benefit from open fora.But for extracting money and profits they avoid discussions.Pl bringforth to opan fora all tech useful to humanity.

V.Rajagopalan

Sent from my iPad

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[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

Yes: an open forum on DIY-bio. Marketing secret, patented services is, by definition, the exact opposite of that. It's off topic.

I'm not censoring anyone here, just asking that we resume exploring reliable, open protocols for telomere length determination.

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[vrgopal]

The definition of marketing is "cosmetic cheating" Patent laws are ok till they get the expenses of the originator and some benefits to him.But strangling others in the name of patents will crush innovation.

V.Rajagopalan

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[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

I'm not "strangling" anyone, I'm saying that offering a secret and forbidden service is not "DIY Telomere Length Test", the subject of this thread.

Though, if the relationship between patents and innovation interests you, by all means look at the research on the subject. It doesn't support the assertion that patents are good for innovation, at all.

And now I'm off topic, too. I'd like to know more about telomere length determination protocols: anyone got a good one we can use, DIY?

[Josiah Zayner]

Here is what that company uses:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21085125

Lots of information on telomeres I am sure a DIY Bio protocol can be made from it.

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[Jeswin]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Cathal Garvey (Tablet)
<cathal...@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
> So, when can we stop discussing some patented corporate approach and resume
> the diy discussion suggested in the title? I, for one, don't hang around
> here to be marketed patented products; this is DIYbio.
>

play by play here:

The original question was "is there a way to test lengths at home?".

Stacy went and found a site which she said was probably illegitimate.
Looking at it, I doubt they offer services for individuals. They cater
more towards clinical tests and research developments.

Then Telome was mentioned and one of their workers chimed in with
details. They actually offer some tests and maybe an individual can
order it.

Followed by off-topic attacks.

Back to Telome's methods and Josiah finds a good article on how Telome
probably does it.

Frankly, I don't understand what went wrong after mentioning Telome.
You guys did learn something about their methods, right? Now we go
from there.

[Cathal Garvey]

Play by play:

> The original question was "is there a way to test lengths at home?".

Indeed.

> Then Telome was mentioned and one of their workers chimed in with
> details. They actually offer some tests and maybe an individual can
> order it.

Fine, they offered a remote service on a DIY-thread, thanks for that,
moving on.

> Followed by off-topic attacks.
Hardly; first they were asked "how do you do it, then?", to which we
are told their methods are secret and soon-to-be-patented. More on this
momentarily.

> Back to Telome's methods and Josiah finds a good article on how Telome
> probably does it.

I'm delighted to see peer-reviewed research rather than merely a
product pitch; that's what this thread is about, and if Telome (R) had
offered their protocols rather than merely a service on a thread asking
about *DIY* telomere protocols, I'd never have suggested we get back to
discussing DIY in the first place.

> You guys did learn something about their methods, right? Now we go
> from there.

Well, yes; and we move on. But bear in mind that in the US, you're not
allowed to use patented techniques except in very limited
circumstances. So, even though we now know as much of Telome's methods
as they've so far revealed, if they get a patent then those of us on US
soil will have to cease using that method if they want to publicly
solicit advice, unless they care to risk being sued for patent
infringement.

I say so partially in jest, to illustrate the core point; much of what
we do here is yak-shaving because we have to sidestep, or outright
break, patents and trade-secret black-spots that limit our
freedom to experiment.

So, let's use what's in the public literature and come up with some
good DIYbio protocols. And if someone patents those methods, we can
reasonably say "Actually, this is obvious to one skilled in the art, or
we'd never have done it", and send them packing.

This isn't an off-topic attack; it's an exhortation to stay on-topic
and keep making great things that help people experiment cheaply and
easily on the stuff that matters to them.

[Alex Hoekstra]

Cathal's got it right.  I'm sorry if what I said regarding TeloMe is unwelcome here, but both Avery and I thought it was relevant at least to mention.  Frankly, if you can find or come up with less expensive telomere test that gives as good or better resolution of length distribution (especially in the 3kb-and-below range) than our method, and open-sourced it, nobody here would complain - we'd just go right on doing science.

I'm not going to dissuade anyone from trying to measure their telomeres step-by-step, DIY style, but I think I'd be remiss if I didn't at least mention that I happen to work for a company that does the most affordable personal telomere testing available today.

[jlund256]

There are several assays used for telomere length determination.  Originally, DNA would be cut with a restriction enzyme that cuts in from the telomere repeat (in the subtelomeric region, I think), run on an agarose gel, and then Southern blotted and probed with telomere repeat sequence or a subtelomeric probe.

Then telomere PCR was developed which would generate a ladder of bands, one for each repeat.  Variants on this and qPCR based methods have also been developed.

A method using ordinary PCR would be the easiest to implement as a DIY project.

Here is a review:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3460641/pdf/nihms402857.pdf

And more reviews: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=link&linkname=pubmed_pubmed_reviews&uid=21663926&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pmc

Jim Lund

[Patrik D'haeseleer]

On Friday, August 16, 2013 7:05:54 AM UTC-7, Cathal Garvey wrote:

But bear in mind that in the US, you're not
allowed to use patented techniques except in very limited
circumstances. So, even though we now know as much of Telome's methods
as they've so far revealed, if they get a patent then those of us on US
soil will have to cease using that method if they want to publicly
solicit advice, unless they care to risk being sued for patent
infringement

IANAL, but as I understand it, there is an exemption for biomedical research. So whether you're using this methods for personal use, or developing novel DIY methodologies based on it, you shoudl be OK to do so without having to look over your shoulder for the patent infringement police...

Patrik

[Cathal Garvey]

Well, IAANAL, but I recall hearing that the "research" exemption is
narrowly interpreted, and pretty much only covers academic
institutions; clearly that'll be interpreted case-by-case.

DIY is not always about personal work though; what if a group were
doing telomere measurements together? As part of workshops? That's
clearly not research, and it's clearly a breach of government-sponsored
monopoly, and therefore grounds for a lawsuit.

In the case that prompted this offshoot, we actually have a staffer
from a company that aims to monopolise a method, on-list. That puts
either us, or him, in a bad position; either he is contractually
obliged as an employee to rat on the group, which risks his job if he
doesn't, or we're obliged to cease discussing methods and skills that
are now illegal by virtue of government-sponsored monopoly.

Before anyone jumps in with "innovation!" nonsense, let's leave that
aside; even though the evidence doesn't back patents at all anyway,
patents were never supposed to cover skills, only "inventions". Process
and method patents effectively privatise and monopolise skillsets,
saying "this trade belongs to this person henceforth". It's the
antithesis of what we do here, but sadly we have no recourse if someone
chooses to buy the rights to a skill from a government. We either have
to come up with other methods, or move discussions on science off-list
to avoid exposure to legal assaults from companies too afraid to keep
innovating.

[Nathan McCorkle]

Maybe we can just ask Alex if he'd sue anyone attempting this... I'm guessing he will say no as long as none of the DIYers go start their own telomere measuring company.

But really, isn't Alex a DIYer making a go at a DIY company? Unless he didn't start the thing himself.

[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

I wasn't suggesting Alex would sue anyone, rather that employees are often responsible for reporting "infringing" activities, and so either he or we could suffer as a result of patents owned by his company. Meant only as an example, not an accusation!

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Cory Geesaman]

Thanks for the responses.  I'm inclined to agree with Cathal here, the subject was "at home" tests - this necessarily negates anything that would require sending samples to an outside lab.

On another note, aren't there issues with saliva-based tests?  It might just be marketing hype from some of the companies doing telomere-length testing, but I read from a few different places online that saliva-based tests were less accurate because they could only handle a more narrow selection of cells than blood-based tests and not all cells types age at the same rate.

[jlund256]

 I would suggest completely ignoring patent issues for several reasons: 1) the DIYbio people tend to change every protocol, so chances are the what is actually done will be quite different than the patented method, 2) Bio patents are a tangled bank of overlapping and limited patent claims, so no one on the list has the specialized domain and legal experience to know whether a particular proposed project violates a patent, 3) patent lawsuits are *very* expensive and there is no money to be won from DIYbio people, so a company filing a suit would be spending $$$ for no gain, 4) there is no history of companies suing DIYbio enthusiasts.

The people on the list are mainly discussing efforts to get 1970-1980's methods to work, not building artificial hearts or engineering corn that produces truffle oil.

Jim

[SC]

The web site claims a 200 bp resolution using in situ hybridization techniques.  To put it kindly, this is an extraordinary claim. When new, unapproved medical technologies tend to make extraordinary claims without anything to back it up, I call shenanigans.

 

Sorry, my statement stands.

 

 

[Jeswin]

Which website/company are you talking about?

[SC]

I have big issues with both sites.  Having done in situ hybridization professionally for several years, I can tell you that it is not possible to measure teleomere length with any accuracy with this method.  It's not just a matter of precision, the technique itself is not meant for that purpose and is not used for "sizing".  It is typically used for marker placement.

 

I can go into specific detail about problems with each site if anyone wants a rundown.

[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

So, you might say you find it all a bit...FISHy?

Sorry, couldn't resist!

SC <stac...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have big issues with both sites.  Having done in situ hybridization professionally for several years, I can tell you that it is not possible to measure teleomere length with any accuracy with this method.  It's not just a matter of precision, the technique itself is not meant for that purpose and is not used for "sizing".  It is typically used for marker placement.

 

I can go into specific detail about problems with each site if anyone wants a rundown.