List Standards

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Daniel C.

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Jun 22, 2009, 3:48:38 PM6/22/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
In light of the recent threads, I'd like to suggest that we adopt some
mailing list standards. I personally am fond of these:

http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html#policies

In particular the following:

* Trim your replies. If you have more quotation than original text,
think about cutting down on the quoted stuff. The list members can
look at the message to which you responded, or check the archive.
Prune that quoted text with ruthless abandon. Everyone else will thank
you for it, especially the list admin(s). Don't forget, thankful list
admins are less hasty with the unsubscribe button.

* We encourage discussion and debate, and don't mind if it gets a bit
heated. However, this does not mean you can flame other list members.
If you think someone's flaming you or being needlessly offensive, take
it up with them in private e-mail. If they get abusive, discuss it
with the list administrators (the e-mail address is in the headers of
every list message). Don't take it onto the list. Regardless of how
long you've been online, I highly recommend a reading of the
following: Avoiding Personal Conflict on Mailing Lists
(http://www.madmanweb.com/archives/0102avoiding_personal_conflict_on_mailing_lists.html)

The CSS-Discuss list has been around since 2002, is extremely high
volume (50+ messages a day) and is widely considered* to be a high
quality list with an excellent signal-to-noise ratio. The high
quality of discussion is due at least in part to their adoption of,
and strict adherence to, the standards outlined in the first link
above. If we want a similarly high quality discussion here, we should
seriously consider adopting similar standards.

-Dan C.

* [Citation Required]

Bryan Bishop

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Jun 22, 2009, 3:58:37 PM6/22/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Daniel C.<dcroo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In light of the recent threads, I'd like to suggest that we adopt some
> mailing list standards.  I personally am fond of these:
>
> http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html#policies

That looks great. Here are some from that page that I like:

# No HTML or RTF (rich text) e-mail period, end of story, full stop.
Your mail client should let you configure it so you can send plain
text messages. Make use of this ability.

In the diybio FAQ, there's a link to a page on netiquette that I
particularly like. I got the link from Eugen Leitl.

http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

"""
1. Attribution

* 1.1 How do I attribute a quotation?
* 1.2 What should be part of the attribution, what shouldn't?

2. Quoting and Answering

* 2.1 How much should I quote?
* 2.2 What should not be quoted?
* 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
* 2.4 But my newsreader places the cursor above the quoted text.
* 2.5 Why should I not attach the entire original article in the end?
* 2.6 A blank row between the quoted text and my response? Why?
* 2.7 How do I mark text I left out?
* 2.8 May I reformat the quoted text?
* 2.9 What about correcting spelling errors?
* 2.10 What's up with those "broken" special character?

3. Quotationmarks

* 3.1 Which character should I use to mark the quoted text?
* 3.2 Should I insert a space after the Quotationmark?
* 3.3 Doesn't it make more sense to use Initials as Quotationmarks?

4. How do I quote other resources?
"""

(Sadly I commonly break the quotation rules when it comes to non-email
by encapsulating large blocks of text with three quotation marks
("""). But nobody has complained or offered a better way for me to
format large blocks of quoted text of non-email stuff, so life goes
on.)

It'd be great if we could all start following these standards. This
way I can figure out who is replying to who or what. It's really hard
to understand email sometimes because of all of the top posting. And
it's even harder to follow conversations (sometimes I suspect the
conversation is becoming completely lost because nobody is doing
quotes and on top of that, nobody is* using a hierarchical mail
client, so discussion degrades rapidly).

* only the cool kids use hierarchical mail clients

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507

Jason Bobe

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Jun 22, 2009, 4:28:19 PM6/22/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
A few other rules I like, although they are not backwards compatible with this DIYbio Google Group:

(1) YOYOW: You own your own words
(2) No anonymity, a corollary of YOYOW
Via Stewart Brand and the WELL: http://www.well.com/yoyow.html

At some point down the road, I recommend that we adopt such standards for the DIYbio online community.

Also, I would be interested to hear opinions about the signal:noise ratio on the Google Group.  Personally, I feel like there is a huge and increasing amount of noise; too many posts by a few and too few posts by others.  I've found myself ignoring the group more often for these reasons and that makes me a little sad.  Are others having similar issues and are there any constructive things we could do to increase signal?  This may just be the nature of public Google Groups...      

Thanks,
Jason Bobe

Tom Knight

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Jun 22, 2009, 4:44:24 PM6/22/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, Tom Knight
On Jun 22, 2009, at 4:28 PM, Jason Bobe wrote:
> Also, I would be interested to hear opinions about the signal:noise
> ratio on the Google Group.  Personally, I feel like there is a huge
> and increasing amount of noise; too many posts by a few and too few
> posts by others.  I've found myself ignoring the group more often for
> these reasons and that makes me a little sad.  Are others having
> similar issues and are there any constructive things we could do to
> increase signal?  This may just be the nature of public Google
> Groups...      
>
I share your concern that there is far too much discussion of how to
write things down and how to communicate, and far too little on
substantive issues. This message is just as guilty of the sin as any
other, for which I apologize.

In partial penance, I'll point out that DNA 2.0 has started
distributing cloned genes in an IP-free expression vector system based
on the T5 phage promoter. This is an important step forward from the
IP encumbered T7 promoters which are widely used.
https://www.dna20.com/pJexpress.php

Bryan Bishop

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Jun 22, 2009, 4:49:53 PM6/22/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Tom Knight<t...@csail.mit.edu> wrote:
> On Jun 22, 2009, at 4:28 PM, Jason Bobe wrote:
>> Also, I would be interested to hear opinions about the signal:noise
>> ratio on the Google Group.  Personally, I feel like there is a huge
>> and increasing amount of noise; too many posts by a few and too few
>> posts by others.  I've found myself ignoring the group more often for
>> these reasons and that makes me a little sad.  Are others having
>> similar issues and are there any constructive things we could do to
>> increase signal?  This may just be the nature of public Google
>> Groups...
>>
> I share your concern that there is far too much discussion of how to
> write things down and how to communicate, and far too little on
> substantive issues.  This message is just as guilty of the sin as any
> other, for which I apologize.

I think if the software hackers were allowed to hack away, things
would naturally resolve themselves for the project. I think there are
some next steps that could be taken shortly over the horizon that
would yield more actual, uh, work getting done.

> In partial penance, I'll point out that DNA 2.0 has started
> distributing cloned genes in an IP-free expression vector system based
> on the T5 phage promoter.  This is an important step forward from the
> IP encumbered T7 promoters which are widely used.
> https://www.dna20.com/pJexpress.php

Neat. On the page it says that the physical vectors are provided
"without IP restrictions", but I don't know what that means. Do they
still own the IP? And is it really "IP-free"? It's not immediately
obvious what's going on there.

Daniel C.

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Jun 22, 2009, 5:58:22 PM6/22/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Jason Bobe<jaso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are there any constructive things we could do to increase signal?

Yes. A list admin who politely but firmly upholds standards, and
unsubscribes people who violate them after warnings, will
significantly improve the long-term well being of the list.

-Dan C.

Cliff

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Jun 22, 2009, 6:10:00 PM6/22/09
to DIYbio
There are constructive things people could do to increase the signal.
For one, people could start communicating about the things they are
actually doing.

On Jun 22, 5:58 pm, "Daniel C." <dcrooks...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bryan Bishop

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Jun 22, 2009, 6:58:01 PM6/22/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Cliff<mcli...@fiu.edu> wrote:
> There are constructive things people could do to increase the signal.
> For one, people could start communicating about the things they are
> actually doing.

For different areas of technology, there are different ways of
reporting this. In some cases it's a quick email saying, "hey, this is
what I am up to"- I liked Jonathan's recent email on that front, by
the way, about microfluidics. But the problem is that after a few
thousand emails like that, you start to lose track of everything, so
that's why we've talked about making things better in the past-
perhaps with software (I think Jonathan and I might collaborate on
some microfluidics software through this system, if he's up to it).
And software is one thing that you don't post updates to via email. I
mean, you used to attach code by email, or something, but honestly
there are tools that facilitate this group dynamic and should be used
anyway. For the open source hardware projects, other tools need to be
developed as well. Overall this helps facilitate the communication of
this engineering information.. but without all of the hassle (except
for the poor programmers who volunteer their brains).

Most projects only need one or two members for a repo to be thrown up,
but for some reason it has taken diybio especially long to get around
to figuring it out.

Bryan Bishop

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Jun 22, 2009, 7:00:33 PM6/22/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com

That sounds like it would really help clean up the noise. If things
are all in the same format, then we could be getting stuff done much
more quickly, maybe miscommunications will be reduced, and things will
move along more smoothly. But there's a difference between "banning
because of content" and "banning because procedures aren't being
followed", which are two different items that need to be addressed. In
some mailing lists, top posting is reason for a slap on the wrist, and
a ban on the second happening. Bwahah.

Mackenzie Cowell

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Jun 26, 2009, 7:26:25 AM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com
I'm all for adopting posting standards.  The main question I have about those standards is how the reply works.  Is top-posting allowed (I think gmail does this by default), or are we going to force everyone to do inline replies, or what?  I don't care, but I don't want to alienate a bunch of members who have never done anything by the gmail default before.

Additionally, I think we should consider starting another list that's *only for posting about things you have actually accomplished or asking for help with problems you are actually having*.  No extraneous discussion or cross posting.  We could call it diybio-work or something.

The list we are currently using could remain the general-purpose discuss list.

I think shop-talk list might improve the signal a lot.

Alternatively, perhaps we could start a convention of prepending a category to the message subject like "[discuss]" or "[help]" or "[lab]" or something like that.  But I like the idea of separating the messages about Doing from those that are just Talking with two lists.

Mac

p.s. Bryan, please reply in a nice manner.

Bryan Bishop

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Jun 26, 2009, 7:55:58 AM6/26/09
to Mackenzie Cowell, kan...@gmail.com, diybio
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:26 AM, Mackenzie Cowell<m...@diybio.org> wrote:
> I'm all for adopting posting standards.  The main question I have about
> those standards is how the reply works.  Is top-posting allowed (I think
> gmail does this by default), or are we going to force everyone to do inline
> replies, or what?  I don't care, but I don't want to alienate a bunch of
> members who have never done anything by the gmail default before.

I am all for top posting not being allowed.

> Additionally, I think we should consider starting another list that's *only
> for posting about things you have actually accomplished or asking for help
> with problems you are actually having*.  No extraneous discussion or cross
> posting.  We could call it diybio-work or something.

That's what I did for the open manufacturing list. We went off and
started a new list called openmanufacturing-dev, which was explicitly
only for development work. That did *not* work out. You should
consider reading the messages in the archive about that.

> The list we are currently using could remain the general-purpose discuss
> list.

So apparently general doesn't include actual work?

> I think shop-talk list might improve the signal a lot.

I think the signal is fine, but I do have to admit some of us spend a
lot of time trying to convince you and others of things that we
shouldn't have to spend time convincing you of.

> Alternatively, perhaps we could start a convention of prepending a category
> to the message subject like "[discuss]" or "[help]" or "[lab]" or something
> like that.  But I like the idea of separating the messages about Doing from
> those that are just Talking with two lists.

If anything, you should consider making the "diybio-ethics" list
instead of a "-doing" list. DIY is about doing. Many people gasp at
the prospect of putting "ethics talk" elsewhere.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507r

Eugen Leitl

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Jun 26, 2009, 7:35:58 AM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 07:26:25AM -0400, Mackenzie Cowell wrote:
>
> I'm all for adopting posting standards. The main question I have
> about those standards is how the reply works. Is top-posting allowed
> (I think gmail does this by default), or are we going to force

I would very much suggest to discourage top-posting. Gmail via browser
is perfectly capable of sending well-formatted email, especially if
you use the << Plain Text as formatting option instead of Rich Formatting.

The only point of Rich Formatting is if you want to include images inline
(i.e. not as attachement) in the post.

> everyone to do inline replies, or what? I don't care, but I don't
> want to alienate a bunch of members who have never done anything by
> the gmail default before.

I think every user, with the possible exception of those who're using
mobile devices with very small screens. We don't want to alienate
as few users as possible, and I think replies like this one are a good
compromise.

In case anyone is having a problem with this email, please tell us so.

> Additionally, I think we should consider starting another list that's
> *only for posting about things you have actually accomplished or
> asking for help with problems you are actually having*. No extraneous
> discussion or cross posting. We could call it diybio-work or
> something.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

> The list we are currently using could remain the general-purpose
> discuss list.
> I think shop-talk list might improve the signal a lot.
> Alternatively, perhaps we could start a convention of prepending a
> category to the message subject like "[discuss]" or "[help]" or
> "[lab]" or something like that. But I like the idea of separating the

Self-administering labelling doesn't really work.

> messages about Doing from those that are just Talking with two lists.
> Mac
> p.s. Bryan, please reply in a nice manner.

--
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

Mackenzie Cowell

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Jun 26, 2009, 8:24:08 AM6/26/09
to Bryan Bishop, diybio
I think the signal is fine, but I do have to admit some of us spend a
lot of time trying to convince you and others of things that we
shouldn't have to spend time convincing you of.

Bryan, I'm sorry to offend you, but I believe you are the loudest and noisiest voice on the diybio list.

You consistently post the most messages each month.  By a landslide.  You have posted 108 messages so far this month.  Compare that with the second-most prolific poster this month, dcrookston, who posted 31 messages.

You also have the the all-time record of most posts, at 711!  The person who has made the second-most all time posts is Meredith, with 171 posts.

If you need to convince people of something, do it off-list and save everyone some mind-share.

I believe your messages have a place somewhere, but I would be happy to have a list I could refer to that did not contain them.

For instance, we could try the list I suggested above, named something like diybio-dev or diybio-work.  The rule could be, don't post to diybio-dev unless you are personally responsible for the work described in the message, or something to that effect.

Why do you think openmanufacturing-dev didn't work?

Mac



Jason Kelly

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Jun 26, 2009, 8:25:12 AM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, Mackenzie Cowell, kan...@gmail.com
>> I think shop-talk list might improve the signal a lot.
>
> I think the signal is fine, but I do have to admit some of us spend a
> lot of time trying to convince you and others of things that we
> shouldn't have to spend time convincing you of.

In response to Jason Bobe's query about signal:noise -- I agree with
Jason, Tom, and Cliff that the there is an increasing amount of noise.
Not sure what the best solution is, but like Jason, I'm ignoring this
list more and it bums me out.

Thanks,
Jason

Bryan Bishop

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Jun 26, 2009, 9:35:18 AM6/26/09
to Mackenzie Cowell, kan...@gmail.com, diybio
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Mackenzie Cowel l<m...@diybio.org> wrote:
>> I think the signal is fine, but I do have to admit some of us spend a
>> lot of time trying to convince you and others of things that we
>> shouldn't have to spend time convincing you of.
>
> Bryan, I'm sorry to offend you, but I believe you are the loudest and
> noisiest voice on the diybio list.

Could you go through my messages that I have sent and label which one
is noise and which one is signal?


List standards
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/4c50d46c5d74b2eb/d/8e6dc57a9c9ab0f%3Fq%3D%2308e6dc57a9c9ab0f&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGYneK1_vtfW4lsXm40xEBGVcQFqg

How to get out of developer's rut
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/d987f968/t/8bbbc262f274b60d/d/e6f489d1cb2d8beb%3Fq%3D%23e6f489d1cb2d8beb&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNHWiuoC2KUgBrZn9_qw71nwULCyig

How creativity is being stiffled by copyright laws
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/7b502039fbac9d0d/d/d6370f83a1b210d3%3Fq%3D%23d6370f83a1b210d3&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEBuj4_8NVeW-IduQrwB984BAoplA

Replying to Jonathan re: his comments on some random video that nobody
is going to watch
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/e325839c5e0626ee/d/5e81194594ce1c61%3Fq%3D%235e81194594ce1c61&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=4&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEXbvHkwdsfl26Toy7PQXLVPRp7PA

DIY DNA synthesis notes
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/c46565aac4440bda/d/6feeeb29e4d5bc3a%3Fq%3D%236feeeb29e4d5bc3a&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=6&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGnR2Et-PdocPKRkoWOwGiP2qX5qA

Freeman Dyson on open science stuff
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/60ad896e791d2475/d/d575b005a8186115%3Fq%3D%23d575b005a8186115&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=7&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEMdR2H6nivhBQmDdgLDTe_RmHsmA

Announcement of a repository challenge thingy with monetary prizes
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/d987f968/t/4eb42af3f66ffcaf/d/90d03c0a6021f749%3Fq%3D%2390d03c0a6021f749&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=8&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGdSSi-cuCBxeK42vgwCXaC5VYGJg

Notes towards a diybio manifesto (that you others requested, by the way)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/31db4d824502b484/d/c52607293297a54f%3Fq%3D%23c52607293297a54f&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=9&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEKsU0853rudOzpE-Pt2Qeh8aWgVg

On the humble default (Kevin Kelly)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/6986bb37a731e757/d/ba38577d42a73199%3Fq%3D%23ba38577d42a73199&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=11&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNFugU-WzSrOKrtepGKbwaPf2zkdNA

Asking Jonathan for some information on his voltage supply schematics
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/9c4640db999661ee/d/83e3b9c4189dd1d1%3Fq%3D%2383e3b9c4189dd1d1&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=17&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGldmDCXiJdq-_WmygHiGzVzT5aCg

Asking Jonathan some more questions (about straws this time)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/a9b2e26c53eeeba3/d/5d0269072b905c15%3Fq%3D%235d0269072b905c15&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=20&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNFszCxBDNQGksu0dNmOOSM3nlF59g

paper abstract re: ant sleep
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/e5a0ad7df30447a9/d/149b18a675d60242%3Fq%3D%23149b18a675d60242&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=23&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNHqsoxs06P8F3Zno3MJ-P91sEEiLg

Shell interface to the fabratory (maybe the most relevant post?)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/cbe7f6b9/t/7ffc9ce38a35ae1/d/4813c06ae251603e%3Fq%3D%234813c06ae251603e&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=26&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNF_ibZlvz36XNDovs3vcmQxB2PWJA

Annoyed that someone lied (but now I'm more annoyed that he thinks I
don't want to see him write a book)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/b5933cfc86a7944b/d/d0102f786c8c696d%3Fq%3D%23d0102f786c8c696d&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=29&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNHsatbt9ehcwBwwKxZj1WNMtIahMA

Requesting Mac to install ikiwiki or gitit or something (still needs
to get done, btw- I don't know if creating a new list will get him do
it though)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/5a16dce3fc90178b/d/fed4a9ce58f23cdb%3Fq%3D%23fed4a9ce58f23cdb&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=30&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGke4cvCkl8Gr5lSbA4zrjCYfRDrg

diybio tales for children
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/5a9b8044d32d3802/d/1531612de2dbdacc%3Fq%3D%231531612de2dbdacc&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=31&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNE3_v7gHNtcjH2pcU9WU5_t0PlunA

Re: Jonathan on repositories
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/ceb0f6a3417d10d4/d/f913b6bf788d64dd%3Fq%3D%23f913b6bf788d64dd&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=34&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNFEnQ41GKVETq-PEKHnwm6I2KIrOw

Fwd re: making Slashdot
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/192d5b489d4beea7/d/382f0ec239510690%3Fq%3D%23382f0ec239510690&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=36&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEk4GW6XaVPDVTCSlaJLxchIkfMUw

Asking around about the origin of the hand-operated centrifuge
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/e2b53aecb0e9d681/d/69ef1167f33b50de%3Fq%3D%2369ef1167f33b50de&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=37&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNHMA0hMirruMhcCPr_fqxHVvllYLQ

Requesting more information about some sort of mobile fablab network
thingy (didn't get a response, argh)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/8bd31a9794b16223/d/a6d66a794b0599f6%3Fq%3D%23a6d66a794b0599f6&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=38&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEmK2g0yCYWEpYJRGKO4UdH_oo3vg

Trying to figure out why diybio isn't interested in doing anything
related to work
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/b90a6bdd5676a270/d/c2ff68bf7819c86d%3Fq%3D%23c2ff68bf7819c86d&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=39&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNHmyjr-8W90aWlUWtrPTPcN1ZRckQ

More on ikiwiki (again! this should have been solved in one email..
not twenty..)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/e14b4169b98b62aa/d/adab2960740cc2e9%3Fq%3D%23adab2960740cc2e9&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=40&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEL3713Hj9t65w72AVFMfVarlp0AQ

Personalized diagnostics
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/df9d23b60ebfbdea/d/44ce638ec325e24a%3Fq%3D%2344ce638ec325e24a&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=41&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGwOYngg_itMy9WGgSPnpxf-AgpeQ

Replying to Jonathan about repositories
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/d46936dbcaba0e09/d/ba4b91be46a07552%3Fq%3D%23ba4b91be46a07552&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=42&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGX3I9vdvEoNf_hJHgdjPn6ip1v4A

Forwarding Marnia's post that she neglected to send to everyone
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/a983ed662e80795c/d/7cb8bee2e3812957%3Fq%3D%237cb8bee2e3812957&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=46&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNHIMWO5lk1atKlYNCkxgJ0hv1VDDQ

Reminding everyone where the skdb git repository is
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/d987f968/t/ea8e68a12d0d0a92/d/61707aa7c3c9edb0%3Fq%3D%2361707aa7c3c9edb0&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=48&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNG4Dyhf9i_nUpu7CR1x5T6IvbXrcg

Full genome sequencing article
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/676942935855cb09/d/2f499603cbf8cfde%3Fq%3D%232f499603cbf8cfde&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=49&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNF5xquRqSlljDccXIXS3cBoJjDLuA

$49 digital microscope
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/3d1890d86d5366d2/d/e43177acf07c5703%3Fq%3D%23e43177acf07c5703&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=50&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGZN0fKYnb3rvcKF0GXaEsg19dAOA

Article on growing organs in the lab from Singularity Hub
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/fc145b2986fcd10d/d/2390ce5ae528ff7b%3Fq%3D%232390ce5ae528ff7b&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=51&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEt85HhRriRtHc961DA1l5GLvEEcA

An electronics toolbox for beginners (notes)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/4c2c443c6e34a422/d/6fda1407cd0de191%3Fq%3D%236fda1407cd0de191&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=52&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGFT6sDh3sdYEmHWYWbpcINqfdRvg

Link to a blog about chemicals that a chemist refuses to work with
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/a8089882835300ff/d/c8ac487066207876%3Fq%3D%23c8ac487066207876&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=54&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEoSz_4kZHSHAy0VkGe6hdrpYttTg

Asking about brain coordinate systems and spherical coordinate systems
for some perl scripts I was writing about localizing different
phenotypical expression and correlating it to regions of the brain.
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/c862e3c68a62a01e/d/2ab350c438a925ef%3Fq%3D%232ab350c438a925ef&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=58&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNFW2WLJUlmtdt9tcuyj9JPujBCizg

Discussion on patents and open source biology stuff
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/62377720a2075edb/d/8b1d37403ca95cb3%3Fq%3D%238b1d37403ca95cb3&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=59&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNE9RrtTHVZ47LcveD3Rrp56iSYSsA

Some humor about biopiracy (which, I guess, if you want to be strict,
might be considered noise)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/c37477be6b3f0fe1/d/88e693a3b5724a27%3Fq%3D%2388e693a3b5724a27&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=62&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGox6HEA4_eyQuAJaaQitQbJ9gcLQ

An article about patenting human genes (since we seem to talk about
patents so often)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/3c766c2740aecb77/d/80bdd7ae94b68b1e%3Fq%3D%2380bdd7ae94b68b1e&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=67&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNG8RBymsvYP1lqFXB0NP3VQuZKSSQ

Asking about why somebody wanted to represent my views to policymakers
or how he would plan to
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/ebe3c8206723a80b/d/f07c2c1151decd20%3Fq%3D%23f07c2c1151decd20&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=72&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGobV6i-5Glpvk72M9IFnWqk7mBsQ

Instrumentation information about an electric method of reading
"signals from the brain" (via surface electrodes)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/c8e247a8099fde08/d/c5714dd0b3e54b8e%3Fq%3D%23c5714dd0b3e54b8e&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=74&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNGH00v_F6nfR5CnjujdAcyiqbtJQg

H+ magazine (Meredith was interviewed)
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/d4b976aced6db87d/d/af11e53f7a9af953%3Fq%3D%23af11e53f7a9af953&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=75&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEu3Ytv4NdpvcWcY3Bt3tLyNHFc7w

Re: our previous discussions on using nanopores for DNA sequencing
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/a977bd0694e485bb/d/388eee06dc7e69f4%3Fq%3D%23388eee06dc7e69f4&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=76&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNHNXY4b07yZpEWS0EoyMk9BdndZ5w

Re: someone asking about the remote control of animals
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/eed9b90db8afbadd/d/ff6a789b690135be%3Fq%3D%23ff6a789b690135be&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=82&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNEJKyhRpd4zxMNtW2gaQh4C0dkvUQ

Inventory for a PCR lab
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/96c7faa7/t/8976ec39550df98d/d/12443ac3c697b9fa%3Fq%3D%2312443ac3c697b9fa&ei=FctEStf3M93llQfezJH7Aw&sa=t&ct=res&cd=85&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNFYQk4L65l4hkTjDjUt2atbcJsl4w
(actually, this was last month)

> You consistently post the most messages each month.  By a landslide.  You
> have posted 108 messages so far this month.  Compare that with the
> second-most prolific poster this month, dcrookston, who posted 31 messages.

Is this about posting too frequently or you don't like what I am saying?

> If you need to convince people of something, do it off-list and save
> everyone some mind-share.

I don't understand why you wrote that sentence in your message after
you said something about my total post count.

> I believe your messages have a place somewhere, but I would be happy to have
> a list I could refer to that did not contain them.

You can easily filter me using a reasonable email client, but honestly
I don't think there's a need to do that.

> For instance, we could try the list I suggested above, named something like
> diybio-dev or diybio-work.  The rule could be, don't post to diybio-dev
> unless you are personally responsible for the work described in the message,
> or something to that effect.

Ok, let's make a deal Mac. If we make a diybio-dev or diybio-work
mailing list, you'll start listening to your developers, you'll throw
up a development repository, you'll start not having to have the
developers explain every single detail about everything to you, and
you'll start taking your own initiative, and I'll post development
stuff over there instead of here. Okay?

> Why do you think openmanufacturing-dev didn't work?

Did you read the messages or not?

Scott Kerr

unread,
Jun 26, 2009, 9:52:14 AM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
I'm all for adopting posting standards.  The main question I have about those standards is how the reply works.  Is top-posting allowed (I think gmail does this by default), or are we going to force everyone to do inline replies, or what?  I don't care, but I don't want to alienate a bunch of members who have never done anything by the gmail default before.

This is the first list like this that I have participated in long term, I don't think it is to hard to figure out how do inline replies (assuming I am doing this right, I am right?;) )  It certainly is much easier to figure out than most of biology, (or programming.)
 

Additionally, I think we should consider starting another list that's *only for posting about things you have actually accomplished or asking for help with problems you are actually having*.  No extraneous discussion or cross posting.  We could call it diybio-work or something.

I don't think that will solve any real problems.  In my case, I would probably join both lists, not really reducing my "noise" load and I predict most people will do the same.  I am sure that "problems you are actually having" can be interpreted as almost anything that has ever been posted to this list. 

Scott


 

Mackenzie Cowell

unread,
Jun 26, 2009, 9:51:58 AM6/26/09
to Bryan Bishop, diybio
> > Bryan, I'm sorry to offend you, but I believe you are the loudest and
> > noisiest voice on the diybio list.
>
> Could you go through my messages that I have sent and label which one
> is noise and which one is signal?

No thanks. I have better things to do than to try and filter your
messages a second time.

>
> > You consistently post the most messages each month.  By a landslide.  You
> > have posted 108 messages so far this month.  Compare that with the
> > second-most prolific poster this month, dcrookston, who posted 31 messages.
>
> Is this about posting too frequently or you don't like what I am saying?

Too frequently. You are dominating the google group and I believe
single-handedly causing people to loose interest. Please post less
often, perhaps by condensing multiple posts into a single message.
Consider trying to post just once a day in addition to any threads you
reply to.

>
> > If you need to convince people of something, do it off-list and save
> > everyone some mind-share.
>
> I don't understand why you wrote that sentence in your message after
> you said something about my total post count.

True, I probably should have done it off-list. sorry.

>
> > I believe your messages have a place somewhere, but I would be happy to have
> > a list I could refer to that did not contain them.
>
> You can easily filter me using a reasonable email client, but honestly
> I don't think there's a need to do that.

Instead of filtering you, I would be happy if you filtered yourself,
or at least condensed your many messages into a single message. I am
also interested in hearing how other people feel about this.

>
> > For instance, we could try the list I suggested above, named something like
> > diybio-dev or diybio-work.  The rule could be, don't post to diybio-dev
> > unless you are personally responsible for the work described in the message,
> > or something to that effect.
>
> Ok, let's make a deal Mac. If we make a diybio-dev or diybio-work
> mailing list, you'll start listening to your developers, you'll throw
> up a development repository, you'll start not having to have the
> developers explain every single detail about everything to you, and
> you'll start taking your own initiative, and I'll post development
> stuff over there instead of here. Okay?

You are not my developer. Feel free to start your own server or
repository. I am not stopping you. I'd be happy to link to it.

>
> > Why do you think openmanufacturing-dev didn't work?
>
> Did you read the messages or not?

No. I was asking for your opinion. If you don't want to give it, how
about a simple link to the message archive.


Thanks,
Mac

--
p: 231.313.9062
e: m...@diybio.org
tw: @macowell

Bryan Bishop

unread,
Jun 26, 2009, 11:13:26 AM6/26/09
to Mackenzie Cowell, kan...@gmail.com, diybio
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Mackenzie Cowell <m...@diybio.org> wrote:
>> > Bryan, I'm sorry to offend you, but I believe you are the loudest and
>> > noisiest voice on the diybio list.
>>
>> Could you go through my messages that I have sent and label which one
>> is noise and which one is signal?
>
> No thanks.  I have better things to do than to try and filter your
> messages a second time.

A second time? What is your first time? Also, email clients can filter
messages for you, so you don't have to do it by hand.

>> > You consistently post the most messages each month.  By a landslide.  You
>> > have posted 108 messages so far this month.  Compare that with the
>> > second-most prolific poster this month, dcrookston, who posted 31 messages.
>>
>> Is this about posting too frequently or you don't like what I am saying?
>
> Too frequently.  You are dominating the google group and I believe
> single-handedly causing people to loose interest.  Please post less
> often, perhaps by condensing multiple posts into a single message.
> Consider trying to post just once a day in addition to any threads you
> reply to.

What? So do you want me to break threading?

Have you considered using the digest mode yourself?

>> > If you need to convince people of something, do it off-list and save
>> > everyone some mind-share.
>>
>> I don't understand why you wrote that sentence in your message after
>> you said something about my total post count.
>
> True, I probably should have done it off-list.  sorry.

What? I still don't understand what you were saying (and now on top of
that, I have no idea what you're talking about a second time).

>> > I believe your messages have a place somewhere, but I would be happy to have
>> > a list I could refer to that did not contain them.
>>
>> You can easily filter me using a reasonable email client, but honestly
>> I don't think there's a need to do that.
>
> Instead of filtering you, I would be happy if you filtered yourself,
> or at least condensed your many messages into a single message.  I am

For things that are not directly related, why put them into a single message?

>> > For instance, we could try the list I suggested above, named something like
>> > diybio-dev or diybio-work.  The rule could be, don't post to diybio-dev
>> > unless you are personally responsible for the work described in the message,
>> > or something to that effect.
>>
>> Ok, let's make a deal Mac. If we make a diybio-dev or diybio-work
>> mailing list, you'll start listening to your developers, you'll throw
>> up a development repository, you'll start not having to have the
>> developers explain every single detail about everything to you, and
>> you'll start taking your own initiative, and I'll post development
>> stuff over there instead of here. Okay?
>
> You are not my developer.  Feel free to start your own server or
> repository.  I am not stopping you.  I'd be happy to link to it.

You claim that you'd be happy to link to it, but you never have before
in the past. I don't know whether or not to believe you.

Believe it or not, I am a developer for diybio .. the tools, hardware
and software are for diybio, whether you understand them or not (but I
suspect you do).

>> > Why do you think openmanufacturing-dev didn't work?
>>
>> Did you read the messages or not?
>
> No.  I was asking for your opinion.  If you don't want to give it, how
> about a simple link to the message archive.

http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing

My mistake, I thought you knew where it was.

Cliff

unread,
Jun 26, 2009, 12:45:59 PM6/26/09
to DIYbio
Okay so this thread kinda illustrates the exact problem some people
are trying to describe. As I said before, I am new to this group and
I initially joined because I am a biologist and I was interested to
see what kinds of things the DiyBio community is doing as well as
contribute in any way that I can. With that said, what I am mostly
seeing is disagreement and no actual biology. Sure there are lots of
great ideas, and even some great threads but I can't help but feel
that much of what is discussed here is how to reinvent scientific
communication (and maybe even science.) The truth is (like it or
not) the field of biology already has a fairly useful framework for
communication. It may be cumbersome and some aspects may need
updating but overall biologists already freely give away much of their
work for other scientists to use via journals, articles etc.. Open-
source methodology originated in scientific thought and philosophy and
already occurs in the sciences. What this group needs is for members
to take the time and write down what they are doing and distribute
this information in an understandable way. Nobody needs special
software (the point of which eludes me) to do this. I know I am
responding to more than a few concerns in this post and perhaps I am
ignorant of some of the issues DiyBio faces. I just don't get why
there are even software discussions and open-source discussions and
communication discussions etc, etc,. I truly believe that the cart is
being put in front of the horse here. There is too much discussion on
what people could or may do, or how they will describe what they do
*if* they actually do anything...but none on what they *are* doing or
what they actually did. I realize I may be adding to the volume (and
noise) here but I thought that a partial outsiders view may shed light
on the ongoing discussions here. For any sort of open-source-type
methodology to work properly (or any of diybio for that matter),
individuals must be willing to check some of their ego at the door (I
believe this is the real problem). Science is and should be a
collaborative effort and requires a positive and cooperative attitude
to work properly. For what it is worth...

PYROcomp

unread,
Jun 26, 2009, 12:57:10 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
Nice.
Succinct.
Agreed.

REXMO

Bryan Bishop

unread,
Jun 26, 2009, 1:00:46 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Cliff <mcli...@fiu.edu> wrote:
> Okay so this thread kinda illustrates the exact problem some people
> are trying to describe.  As I said before, I am new to this group and
> I initially joined because I am a biologist and I was interested to

Hi Cliff, thanks for the comments. My replies are below.

> see what kinds of things the DiyBio community is doing as well as
> contribute in any way that I can.  With that said, what I am mostly

Contribution can be done in a few different ways, like writing emails,
updating the wiki, etc., but for some tasks (like software), updating
a wiki is not sufficient.

> seeing is disagreement and no actual biology.  Sure there are lots of
> great ideas, and even some great threads but I can't help but feel

I am not seeing any disagreement, really, except in this thread. Could
you highlight some of the disagreements?

> that much of what is discussed here is how to reinvent scientific
> communication (and maybe even science.)  The truth is (like it or

That sounds very broad and philosophical.

> not)  the field of biology already has a fairly useful framework for
> communication.  It may be cumbersome and some aspects may need

The field of open source methodology also has frameworks already too.
An open source project doesn't have to reinvent the wheel, really.

> updating but overall biologists already freely give away much of their
> work for other scientists to use via journals, articles etc.. Open-

Well, I think based off of our previous discussions, we generally
agree that articles aren't the best way to communicate things like
software. Just give me a tarball and the source code, not 10 pages of
crap that I have to read through to reverse engineer your system. etc.

> source methodology originated in scientific thought and philosophy and
> already occurs in the sciences. What this group needs is for members

In some cases it occurs, yeah, but what does that have to do with it?

> to take the time and write down what they are doing and distribute

Yeah, that'd be great.

> this information in an understandable way.  Nobody needs special
> software (the point of which eludes me) to do this.  I know I am

What special software are you talking about? The revision control
systems for wikis and software? That would be a huge debate, how are
you going to go up against all of the evidence of the success of the
revision control system from F/OSS for software development? Just
wondering .. you might have a point.

> responding to more than a few concerns in this post and perhaps I am
> ignorant of some of the issues DiyBio faces.  I just don't get why

Well, if you've read the archives, and have read the FAQ, then I think
you should be able to consider yourself up to speed.

> there are even software discussions and open-source discussions and
> communication discussions etc, etc,.  I truly believe that the cart is

There are software discussions because we've written software. There
are open source discussions because diybio is (or at least was?) an
open source project organization.

> being put in front of the horse here.  There is too much discussion on

The horse is already way ahead of the game.

> what people could or may do, or how they will describe what they do
> *if* they actually do anything...but none on what they *are* doing or
> what they actually did.  I realize I may be adding to the volume (and

Maybe you should read the commit logs sometime?

> noise) here but I thought that a partial outsiders view may shed light
> on the ongoing discussions here.  For any sort of open-source-type
> methodology to work properly (or any of diybio for that matter),
> individuals must be willing to check some of their ego at the door (I
> believe this is the real problem).  Science is and should be a
> collaborative effort and requires a positive and cooperative attitude
> to work properly. For what it is worth...

I agree :-).

Jack Bent

unread,
Jun 26, 2009, 1:38:23 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com

I might add that what I see are a bunch or earnest scientists who are interested in doing projects outside of their funded work or as a stepping stone to finding funded work.  Hearing about projects and possible collaboration are why I subscribed to this list.  Though it, I have made a few useful connections. However, there are a few people who post here that are more interested in displaying their breathtaking ignorance through stunning displays of arrogance (again, the signal to noise ratio).  Frankly, a few bad <noisy> apples are spoiling what I hoped would be a useful way to keep my eye on interesting developments outside my own lab.

 

-jack

Daniel C.

unread,
Jun 26, 2009, 3:23:15 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Mackenzie Cowell<m...@diybio.org> wrote:
> I'm all for adopting posting standards.  The main question I have about
> those standards is how the reply works.  Is top-posting allowed (I think
> gmail does this by default), or are we going to force everyone to do inline
> replies, or what?  I don't care, but I don't want to alienate a bunch of
> members who have never done anything by the gmail default before.

Alienating people is a very valid concern. I've found that the best
way to avoid making people feel unwelcome is to have the list admin
respond off-list to emails. In their response, the admin should very
politely remind them of the list standards and explain how they could
have changed their email to conform to the standards. The explanation
is important because not everyone is going to understand right away.

I would suggest that we make trimming mandatory, and bottom posting
"strongly encouraged". Mandatory meaning if they're reminded three
times in a row and keep doing it, they get unsubscribed for a "while".
Strongly encouraged would only get a reminder email, no
unsubscription even if they do it consistently.

> Additionally, I think we should consider starting another list that's *only
> for posting about things you have actually accomplished or asking for help
> with problems you are actually having*.  No extraneous discussion or cross
> posting.  We could call it diybio-work or something.

My vote would be for this list - diy...@googlegroups.com - to be that
list. I would also vote that we disallow forwards from other mailing
lists onto this list. I'm sure we all know what the other mailing
lists are by now - if we want to keep up with them, we all know how to
subscribe to them. I appreciate being kept up to date on what's
happening in other communities, but that's not why I'm on the DIYbio
mailing list.

> Alternatively, perhaps we could start a convention of prepending a category
> to the message subject like "[discuss]" or "[help]" or "[lab]" or something
> like that.

If people would actually do it, that'd be great. (I doubt that
people, myself included, are going to remember to do it.)

-Dan C.

Bryan Bishop

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Jun 26, 2009, 3:30:30 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Daniel C. <dcroo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Mackenzie Cowell <m...@diybio.org> wrote:
>> I'm all for adopting posting standards.  The main question I have about
>> those standards is how the reply works.  Is top-posting allowed (I think
>> gmail does this by default), or are we going to force everyone to do inline
>> replies, or what?  I don't care, but I don't want to alienate a bunch of
>> members who have never done anything by the gmail default before.
>
> Alienating people is a very valid concern.  I've found that the best
> way to avoid making people feel unwelcome is to have the list admin
> respond off-list to emails.  In their response, the admin should very
> politely remind them of the list standards and explain how they could
> have changed their email to conform to the standards.  The explanation
> is important because not everyone is going to understand right away.
>
> I would suggest that we make trimming mandatory, and bottom posting
> "strongly encouraged".  Mandatory meaning if they're reminded three
> times in a row and keep doing it, they get unsubscribed for a "while".
>  Strongly encouraged would only get a reminder email, no
> unsubscription even if they do it consistently.

One point that hasn't been brought up yet is that we do not know who
the actual list administrators are, or whether or not they are up to
the tasks that you outlined. Are there any moderators, and do the
moderators have any saying on what happens on the server or not?

Jason Bobe

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Jun 26, 2009, 4:04:13 PM6/26/09
to DIYbio

> I would also vote that we disallow forwards from other mailing
> lists onto this list.  I'm sure we all know what the other mailing
> lists are by now - if we want to keep up with them, we all know how to
> subscribe to them.  I appreciate being kept up to date on what's
> happening in other communities, but that's not why I'm on the DIYbio
> mailing list.

I absolutely endorse this sentiment and hope self-restraint goes into
effect immediately :)

Thanks,
Jason Bobe

Nathan McCorkle

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Jun 26, 2009, 4:13:49 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com

> Additionally, I think we should consider starting another list that's *only
> for posting about things you have actually accomplished or asking for help
> with problems you are actually having*.  No extraneous discussion or cross
> posting.  We could call it diybio-work or something.

That sounds good, or, keep the current list for that, and start another list, diybio-news or something, a lot of what Bryan posts could be over there, and he does post some very cool, and very interdisciplinary stuff (which is where bio is heading)

 
I would also vote that we disallow forwards from other mailing
lists onto this list.  I'm sure we all know what the other mailing
lists are by now - if we want to keep up with them, we all know how to
subscribe to them.  I appreciate being kept up to date on what's
happening in other communities, but that's not why I'm on the DIYbio
mailing list.

I disagree, I enjoy and feel very rewarded sometimes when Bryan has some random forwarded message from some other list.


--
Nathan McCorkle
Rochester Institute of Technology
College of Science, Biotechnology/Bioinformatics

Len Sassaman

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Jun 26, 2009, 4:21:31 PM6/26/09
to diybio, Bryan Bishop
I second Bryan's move to create a diybio-ethics list rather than move
"doing" out of "DIYBIO." Might as well drop the D.

And yes, I'm top-posting. Be grateful that Bryan and Meredith get around
to saying what I'd say before I do, thus saving me the trouble. (No, the
point isn't really about top-posting; it's about how I'm happy to let
Bryan be my bulldog and let Meredith post (sometimes with, sometimes
without) input from me, thus covering my ideas.

I suspect there's a lot of other people who are silent because they have
nothing to add beyond what the top contributors have said.

--Len.

William Heath

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Jun 26, 2009, 4:23:44 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
I agree with Nathan, Bryan rocks.  I wish he would be a little nicer but can't complain overall.  He is very needed.

Nathan McCorkle

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Jun 26, 2009, 4:35:08 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
I in fact just top posted in another thread about eDNA... it was by accident because I was compiling my message, and after typing quickly hit tab then spacebar (moving the cursor from the text box to the send box, and spacebar activating "send")

I have said this before, gmail and google groups hide top-posting automatically, so folks on other e-mail clients may have trouble. I don't think it's a horribly big deal, but I will/am trying to change my automatic ways of posting for the better of all.

Daniel C.

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Jun 26, 2009, 5:05:38 PM6/26/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Nathan McCorkle<nmz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I in fact just top posted in another thread about eDNA... it was by accident
> because I was compiling my message, and after typing quickly hit tab then
> spacebar (moving the cursor from the text box to the send box, and spacebar
> activating "send")

Failing to trim is really a bigger issue, in my opinion, than
top/bottom posting. I mean, okay, put your response wherever you
want, I can probably figure it out; but if you've got three emails in
your quoted text, figuring out what you're talking about gets a lot
harder.

-Dan C.

Josh Perfetto

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Jun 26, 2009, 9:21:15 PM6/26/09
to DIYBio Mailing List, Len Sassaman, Bryan Bishop
On 6/26/09 1:21 PM, "Len Sassaman" <Len.Sa...@esat.kuleuven.be> wrote:
> I second Bryan's move to create a diybio-ethics list rather than move
> "doing" out of "DIYBIO." Might as well drop the D.

I really don't think that's adequate. I've also found the signal to noise
of this list getting quite poor and had started paying less attention.
There's quite a lot of things besides ethics that various people on this
list want to discuss, and I don't think the solution is to stop them from
discussing it. But there's also a lot of people that are either turned off
by this or don't have the time for it, and it is a serious loss to the
community to not accommodate this.

My suggestion is to keep this list as a relatively unmoderated discussion
list for general topics and chat, and break-off more moderated, topical
lists as the need arises and the community grows. Right now I think the
following two lists are warranted:

1. Ethics - For discussion of ethical/press/safety issues (I realize those
are not all the same, but think a single list can satisfy that for now)

2. Work or Projects - For discussions about things you are actually doing (I
don't really like the name but can't think of anything better. This is a
pretty general topic and I expect it would eventually need to be split-up
further but one list is adequate for now)

Everything else (posts of general interest, basic questions, futuristic
stuff) could remain in the main/discuss list.

The point is not just to divide up the discussions, but also to establish
some new norms in these new lists (with the help of moderation if needed)
other than the norms that have evolved here, and start making more progress
in these areas rather than just general talk that doesn't go anywhere.
Anyone who excessively lowers the signal to noise ratio in these new lists
can be politely asked by the moderators to take such posts to the discussion
list.

-Josh


Heath Matlock

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Jun 27, 2009, 1:04:11 AM6/27/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
The recommendations for adopting a set of standards is seemingly something everyone who has responded has agreed upon. It doesn't matter who the admins are as long as the standards are maintained.

So what if Bryan consistently posts more than anyone on the list? He is at 112 post for this month right now, that's an average of about 4 per day. It isn't difficult to sort through 4 emails each day. Filter him if you like, but his emails are relevant, even the forwards from other lists. I think some of this tension might subside if there was a repository for the group, preferably hosted on diybio.org, since it has proven to withstand heavy loads from popular news sites.

DIYbio is about doing it yourself, what projects we are involved in or interested in tackling. So in general, projects are simply the norm and should remain on the general mailing. What else are we going to talk about on this list? Much of the discussion from the proposed projects and ethics lists would carry over to general discussion.

Heath Matlock


Eugen Leitl

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Jun 27, 2009, 12:30:55 PM6/27/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 03:05:38PM -0600, Daniel C. wrote:

> Failing to trim is really a bigger issue, in my opinion, than
> top/bottom posting. I mean, okay, put your response wherever you

Indeed, and citing properly isn't hard. Have a gander at
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

In general, if you trim your mail, use plain text ("Plain Text" in
Google mail, not "Rich Formatting", use the ">" sign to indent
cited text you're almost perfect.

> want, I can probably figure it out; but if you've got three emails in
> your quoted text, figuring out what you're talking about gets a lot
> harder.

Indeed. I also do not understand why some many smart people
have trouble grasping these three basics.

Jason Kelly

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Jun 28, 2009, 11:20:12 AM6/28/09
to diy...@googlegroups.com, Len Sassaman, Bryan Bishop
> The point is not just to divide up the discussions, but also to establish
> some new norms in these new lists (with the help of moderation if needed)
> other than the norms that have evolved here, and start making more progress
> in these areas rather than just general talk that doesn't go anywhere.
> Anyone who excessively lowers the signal to noise ratio in these new lists
> can be politely asked by the moderators to take such posts to the discussion
> list.

Strongly agree with this. I think it's worth a try to see if we can
set up a list with different norms. I agree with previous posters --
josh, jack, mac, jason bobe, tom -- that the low S/N on discuss is
losing people that would be good to keep around.

thanks,
jason

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