Anyone familiarw with 6D?

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Chris Messina

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Mar 1, 2010, 2:51:49 PM3/1/10
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In reading up on Marshall's post on Action Links today, I came across
this on a comment on RWW:

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/action_streams_a_new_idea_for_social_networks.php#comment-193615

"Centralizing You By Decentralizing Social Networking"
http://www.get6d.com

I thought this sounded pretty familiar:

"We're utilizing open standards such as microformats and the HTTP
protocol, the fabric of the web. We considered using the XMPP
protocol, but our requirement to run on most shared hosting
environments killed that idea."

http://www.get6d.com/manifesto/

Anyone have any insight into the project, or how far along it is?

Chris

Yonas Y.

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Mar 1, 2010, 3:19:38 PM3/1/10
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There seems to be a atleast four groups that are trying to do the same
thing:


Kopal: http://code.google.com/p/kopal/
Noserub: http://noserub.com/
Get6d: http://www.get6d.com/
DSNP: http://www.complang.org/dsnp/


Very interesting...! :)


- Yonas

jg

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Mar 1, 2010, 3:23:28 PM3/1/10
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What sounds familiar about it?

On Mar 1, 1:51 pm, Chris Messina <chris.mess...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In reading up on Marshall's post on Action Links today, I came across
> this on a comment on RWW:
>

> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/action_streams_a_new_idea_for_so...

Erik Bigelow

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Mar 1, 2010, 3:54:21 PM3/1/10
to Chris Messina, Diso Project
I'm quite familiar. I'm one of the builders. What would you like to know?

Erik Bigelow

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Mar 1, 2010, 9:27:26 PM3/1/10
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The big difference between 6d and the other projects above, from what
I've seen (and I'm not trying to say this disparagingly), is that we
aren't trying to create a new protocol or any new standards. We kept
it as simple as possible by using HTTP and REST to communicate to
other 6d sites. So when you start from the most basic layer it makes
it easy to build additional layers on top to communicate to any of
those disparate closed networks that let you access them via their API
or protocol. We view it as the internet and HTTP was designed for
decentralized social networking already. Why try and reinvent the
wheel?

On Mar 1, 2:19 pm, "Yonas Y." <yona...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There seems to be a atleast four groups that are trying to do the same
> thing:
>
> Kopal:http://code.google.com/p/kopal/
> Noserub:http://noserub.com/
> Get6d:http://www.get6d.com/
> DSNP:http://www.complang.org/dsnp/
>
> Very interesting...! :)
>
> - Yonas
>
> On Mon, 2010-03-01 at 11:51 -0800, Chris Messina wrote:
> > In reading up on Marshall's post on Action Links today, I came across
> > this on a comment on RWW:
>

> >http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/action_streams_a_new_idea_for_so...

Chris Messina

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Mar 1, 2010, 9:47:24 PM3/1/10
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So what specific protocols are you using? HTTP and REST only get you so far — so can you elaborate on what expect people will be able to do with 6D? 

Have you taken a look at ActivityStreams, Portable Contacts, or the OpenSocial APIs?

And, when do we get to see the source code!

@jg: in the early days of Diso, we thought that XMPP could be a part of this effort... turned out it was a bit too much to administer on commodity hosting providers, so we abandoned it. 6D says more or less the same thing on their site.

Chris

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jg

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Mar 1, 2010, 10:48:13 PM3/1/10
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There's 2 of us building 6d. I'm the other person and wanted to
respond.

We're not using any other protocols. We've organized the code
according to our understanding of REST and defined properties like
post::title, post::body, post::source, friend::name, friend::url, etc.
based on what we've found to be common terms used in apps like
Wordpress, Twitter and Facebook. While fully recognizing that this may
change since we'll want to incorporate more open and standardized
protocols in the future.

The problems we wanted to tackle are sharing posts, thoughts, videos,
and photos with your friends in a decentralized network. We've haven't
addressed activity streams yet, but we've been talking about it.

It's been hard to describe what you can do with 6d in a generic way
without seeming like Wordpress or Tumblr. At first glance, the 6d UI
is a blog. There's a public facing site where you can make posts. As
the authorized person, you can create and edit your posts, manage your
address book and follow other people who have 6d sites. Currently,
there's only 1 authorized person since theoretically, everyone will
eventually have their own (6d;)site that can send and receive
messages.

Behind the scenes, every post that's made public right now gets sent
via an HTTP POST to everyone in your address book. We're adding the
ability to pick and choose who to send the post right now instead of
broadcasting it to everyone, but it's not current functionality. Each
person you authorize to follow you gets sent a public key with which
we'll be using for encrypting the data (not done yet). This is just a
first stab at trying to identify who's sending you a message.

I've structured the code to include themes so you'll be able to theme
your site as easy as defining css for the default views. But it also
allows you to override the default views with your own views (markup).

Yes, we've taken a look at ActivityStreams, Portable Contacts and a
little at the OpenSocial APIs. But right now, we're focusing on
getting a working app first. We believe by using a RESTful approach to
organizing the code, incorporating those standards and/or features
will be easy. We do want to follow open standards, but we're trying to
get a functioning app up and running as soon as possible.

Yeah, we discussed using XMPP a lot in the beginning. We imagined a
bunch of XMPP servers as Web Servers that communicated with each other
in xml fragments and that vision was really cool. But we came to the
same conclusion given our desire to run on shared hosting
environments. Although, I personally believe that we'll get there in
the future, Web Servers communicating with each other for presence
notification and real time updates. I think that's the next evolution
where the default server configurations will have software that does
that just like Apache is a part of many a servers default
configuration. It's good to hear that others came to the same
conclusion. I think the ability to run on commodity servers is one of
the reasons why Wordpress is so popular, and PHP for that matter.

Our intent is to open source this code base. I've already open sourced
the RESTful framework (http://www.restfulchinchilla.com) that the app
is using and we'd like to get to beta status before releasing the
rest. Also, we plan on starting a business around it 6d, so we're
discussing how to do it now. We'll definitely send you the code base
to see what we're doing, but I'd like to clean up some things before
sending it to you;) The code changes a lot right now.

> > diso-project...@googlegroups.com<diso-project%2Bunsubscribe@google groups.com>

Vikrant Chaudhary

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Mar 2, 2010, 12:57:52 AM3/2/10
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While people from different projects are here, I'd like to take this
opportunity
to discuss about how are we tackling with the problem of keeping a
user signed-in across the network?
I've outlined the problem in this wiki - http://code.google.com/p/kopal/wiki/Challenge

On Mar 2, 1:19 am, "Yonas Y." <yona...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There seems to be a atleast four groups that are trying to do the same
> thing:
>
> Kopal:http://code.google.com/p/kopal/
> Noserub:http://noserub.com/
> Get6d:http://www.get6d.com/
> DSNP:http://www.complang.org/dsnp/
>
> Very interesting...! :)
>
> - Yonas
>
> On Mon, 2010-03-01 at 11:51 -0800, Chris Messina wrote:
> > In reading up on Marshall's post on Action Links today, I came across
> > this on a comment on RWW:
>

> >http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/action_streams_a_new_idea_for_so...

Steve Ivy

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Mar 2, 2010, 5:14:33 PM3/2/10
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I don't have the link on me now, but Chris posted a link today to a
Drupal consultancy that built an system for keeping users logged in
across services by using *pubsubhubbub* to push signin data around.
That's *still* messing with my head it's so awesome.

--Steve

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>

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Chris Messina

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Mar 2, 2010, 5:19:48 PM3/2/10
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Peter H. Reiser

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Mar 2, 2010, 5:37:38 PM3/2/10
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How about this one 
Peter

Erik Bigelow

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Mar 3, 2010, 11:27:03 AM3/3/10
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We've been talking about using ID's at different sites and haven't
come up with any satisfactory solutions and for our 6d project it's
not something that's the forefront in the list of things to do just
yet. While we've looked at foaf+ssl and like it for it's RESTful
nature it will require users to buy an ssl certificate which we don't
really like. :(

OpenID is something we'd really like to support, and I've been doing
some searching about how possible that is in a shared host
environment. The thing that I want to look at more when I have more
time is phpMyID which seems to be a pretty good solution for single-
user/site openID support but it doesn't seem to work with openID 2.0
at this time. :(

http://siege.org/projects/phpMyID

Anyway, it's in our minds but up in the air for now.


On Mar 2, 4:37 pm, "Peter H. Reiser" <peter.rei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about this onehttp://esw.w3.org/topic/foaf+ssl


> Peter
>
> On Mar 2, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Chris Messina wrote:
>
> > Voila:
>
> >http://developmentseed.org/blog/2010/mar/02/simple-sign-openid
>

> > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Steve Ivy <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't have the link on me now, but Chris posted a link today to a
> > Drupal consultancy that built an system for keeping users logged in
> > across services by using *pubsubhubbub* to push signin data around.
> > That's *still* messing with my head it's so awesome.
>
> > --Steve
>
> > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Vikrant Chaudhary <nas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > While people from different projects are here, I'd like to take this
> > > opportunity
> > > to discuss about how are we tackling with the problem of keeping a
> > > user signed-in across the network?

> > > I've outlined the problem in this wiki -http://code.google.com/p/kopal/wiki/Challenge

> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/diso-project?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > Steve Ivy
> >http://monkinetic.com//http://diso-project.org


> > This email is: [ ] bloggable [x] ask first [ ] private
>
> > --
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Andrew Wetzel

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Mar 3, 2010, 2:37:59 PM3/3/10
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So now we can teach WordPress this trick? http://en.blog.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/rub-a-dub-dub-in-the-pubsubhubbub/
--Andrew

Robert

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Mar 3, 2010, 4:25:29 PM3/3/10
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Or BuddyPress?  :)  (Coming from that side of things.)


--

James Walker

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Mar 3, 2010, 4:56:04 PM3/3/10
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It's absolutely brilliant. I had some early chats with the fine folks
@ DevSeed when they were putting this together and was *very*
impressed with the solution.

That's a blog to watch, imnsho...

--
James Walker :: http://walkah.net/

Stephen Paul Weber

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Mar 3, 2010, 11:13:24 PM3/3/10
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Re buying TLS certs, startssl has IE support for gratis and cacert is cool too

Sent from my Android phone. Topposted :-(

On Mar 3, 2010 11:27 AM, "Erik Bigelow" <erik...@gmail.com> wrote:

We've been talking about using ID's at different sites and haven't
come up with any satisfactory solutions and for our 6d project it's
not something that's the forefront in the list of things to do just
yet.  While we've looked at foaf+ssl and like it for it's RESTful
nature it will require users to buy an ssl certificate which we don't
really like. :(

OpenID is something we'd really like to support, and I've been doing
some searching about how possible that is in a shared host
environment.  The thing that I want to look at more when I have more
time is phpMyID which seems to be a pretty good solution for single-
user/site openID support but it doesn't seem to work with openID 2.0
at this time. :(

http://siege.org/projects/phpMyID

Anyway, it's in our minds but up in the air for now.


On Mar 2, 4:37 pm, "Peter H. Reiser" <peter.rei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about this onehttp://esw.w3.org/topic/foaf+ssl

> Peter > > On Mar 2, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Chris Messina wrote: > > > Voila: > > >http://developmentse...

> > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Steve Ivy <steve...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I don't have the link ...

> > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Vikrant Chaudhary <nas...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > While people ...

> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/diso-project?hl=en.

> > > -- > > Steve Ivy > >http://monkinetic.com//http://diso-project.org > > This email is: [ ] blog...

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/diso-project?hl=en.

> > > -- > > Chris Messina > > Open Web Advocate, Google > > > Personal:http://factoryjoe.com > > Fo...

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/diso-project?hl=en.

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jg

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Mar 4, 2010, 12:28:34 PM3/4/10
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PuSH is cool but still relies on a hub as your NotificationCenter.
We're trying to avoid dependence on a hub for notifications. Think of
6d more along the lines of peer to peer messaging without the presence
notifications. The PuSH implementation is addressing a different user
story.

On Mar 3, 1:37 pm, Andrew Wetzel <andwet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So now we can teach WordPress this trick?http://en.blog.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/rub-a-dub-dub-in-the-pubsubhu...


> --Andrew
>
> On 3/2/2010 4:19 PM, Chris Messina wrote:
>
>
>
> > Voila:
>
> >http://developmentseed.org/blog/2010/mar/02/simple-sign-openid
>

> > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Steve Ivy <steve...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:steve...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >     I don't have the link on me now, but Chris posted a link today to a
> >     Drupal consultancy that built an system for keeping users logged in
> >     across services by using *pubsubhubbub* to push signin data around.
> >     That's *still* messing with my head it's so awesome.
>
> >     --Steve
>
> >     On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Vikrant Chaudhary

> >     <nas...@gmail.com <mailto:nas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >     > While people from different projects are here, I'd like to take this
> >     > opportunity
> >     > to discuss about how are we tackling with the problem of keeping a
> >     > user signed-in across the network?
> >     > I've outlined the problem in this wiki -
> >    http://code.google.com/p/kopal/wiki/Challenge
>
> >     > On Mar 2, 1:19 am, "Yonas Y." <yona...@gmail.com

jg

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Mar 4, 2010, 12:30:24 PM3/4/10
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BuddyPress is still a centralized solution for creating a social
network. You have to setup an account in a central database to belong
that a network. 6d is focusing on a distributed implementation for
broadcasting messages instead of having to create an account on every
network that you want to be a part of.

On Mar 3, 3:25 pm, Robert <langb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or BuddyPress?  :)  (Coming from that side of things.)
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Andrew Wetzel <andwet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  So now we can teach WordPress this trick?

> >http://en.blog.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/rub-a-dub-dub-in-the-pubsubhu...


> >  --Andrew
>
> > On 3/2/2010 4:19 PM, Chris Messina wrote:
>
> > Voila:
>
> >  http://developmentseed.org/blog/2010/mar/02/simple-sign-openid
>

> > diso-project...@googlegroups.com<diso-project%2Bunsubscribe@google groups.com>

Will Norris

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Mar 4, 2010, 2:13:13 PM3/4/10
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conceptually yes, there is a distinction between the content publisher and the hub.  However, in practice they can be one and the same.  For example, take a look at the announcement about WordPress yesterday[0]... the plugin that they wrote[1] doesn't depend on a separate hub, it's built in, so it's basically a peer-to-peer model.  Depending on how you actually implement this model you could still run into problems (ie. whether or not you are queing up pings, or trying to send them all at once), but it's certainly supported in pubsubhubbub.

[0]: http://en.blog.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/rub-a-dub-dub-in-the-pubsubhubbub/
[1]: http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/pushpress/

jg

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Mar 4, 2010, 3:22:52 PM3/4/10
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I see that. I think that's awesome to have the ability to push your
posts to a roster. That's definitely what we're trying to accomplish
with 6d. I've deliberated with myself about taking the approach of
building this functionality on top of Wordpress. But ultimately
decided that I wanted to build a new app (6d) that we can build a
business model around AND promote this technique across apps like
Wodpress instead. I'm really excited to see these implementations
actually coming to reality. I like the vision of a distributed real
time web. It just seems like the natural step to the web's evolution.

On Mar 4, 1:13 pm, Will Norris <w...@willnorris.com> wrote:
> conceptually yes, there is a distinction between the content publisher and
> the hub.  However, in practice they can be one and the same.  For example,
> take a look at the announcement about WordPress yesterday[0]... the plugin
> that they wrote[1] doesn't depend on a separate hub, it's built in, so it's
> basically a peer-to-peer model.  Depending on how you actually implement
> this model you could still run into problems (ie. whether or not you are
> queing up pings, or trying to send them all at once), but it's certainly
> supported in pubsubhubbub.
>

> [0]:http://en.blog.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/rub-a-dub-dub-in-the-pubsubhu...

> > diso-project...@googlegroups.com<diso-project%2Bunsubscribe@google groups.com>

Odin Omdal Hørthe

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Mar 4, 2010, 7:29:23 PM3/4/10
to diso-p...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Yonas Y. <yon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There seems to be a atleast four groups that are trying to do the same
> thing:
>
> Kopal: http://code.google.com/p/kopal/
> Noserub: http://noserub.com/
> Get6d: http://www.get6d.com/
> DSNP: http://www.complang.org/dsnp/

And more (if I understood correctly):

GNU Social/daisychain: http://daisycha.in
OneSocialWeb: http://onesocialweb.org/

And Google Wave also, if we emphasize decentralized and deempasize the rest ;-)

Good thing I never started my own project to do exactly the same
thing. But they are all here for a reason; we see that these social
networks aren't cutting it anymore. They're not as free as they should
be, they're not decentralized like our beloved Internet.

--
Beste helsing,
Odin Hørthe Omdal <odin....@gmail.com>
http://velmont.no

Erik Bigelow

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Mar 4, 2010, 8:10:28 PM3/4/10
to diso-p...@googlegroups.com
PuSH is cool, especially with Google working on implementing this into
search, but it's still solving a different user story. It's pushing
public stories around real-time. What if I only want my friends to
see it and not the rest of the world?

I want to build 6d because I want it to be my online identity. Anyone
else that has a 6d site it will be their online identity. If they
want to turn it into their aggregator for other networks, that's
great. Or, because our idea of one user per 6d site, if ReadWriteWeb
gave each of it's editors a 6d site, and turned ReadWriteWeb into
sorta a "hub" 6d site where the editors work would all be pushed and
published, then they could.

6d is all about owning your information and identity, and getting to
choose exactly what you want to do with it. Facebook controls way to
much in their little mini-internet and can do whatever they want with
my info and I don't like that. We'd really like each instance to be
that person's OpenID server also, to log into other sites, sites that
make sense to stay centralized. That was one of my other reasons to
build 6d. I really hate having to register at every site I go to.

My vision with 6d is being able to pass messages back and forth with
my friends and peers. Publish posts to the world. And access other
sites by having that site authenticate me through my site.

Yes we'll support Activity Streams and other protocols that make
sense, but some of those things will be a layer on top of the basic
functionality of 6d. You can almost think of 6d as your email over
HTTP with the ability to make things as public or private as you want.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diso-project...@googlegroups.com.

Robert

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Mar 4, 2010, 8:49:28 PM3/4/10
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Will -- where was the Wordpress announcement?  I missed that one.

Vikrant Chaudhary

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Mar 5, 2010, 6:01:40 AM3/5/10
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I guess people started discussing something else rather than the
discussion I intended to start.
What I'm trying to ask is quite different than broadcasting or doing
simultaneous sign-in on 5 different sites.
I was actually asking about the problem of how to sign-in
automatically when you visit _any_ new domain on a distributed
network.
And while community here has taken a different route of discussion,
I'd rather start a new thread instead of polluting this discussion.
Here is the link - http://groups.google.com/group/diso-project/t/d30532cfb85a3889

On Mar 2, 10:57 am, Vikrant Chaudhary <nas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> While people from different projects are here, I'd like to take this
> opportunity
> to discuss about how are we tackling with the problem of keeping a
> user signed-in across the network?

> I've outlined the problem in this wiki -http://code.google.com/p/kopal/wiki/Challenge

Joseph Holsten

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Mar 5, 2010, 10:19:03 AM3/5/10
to diso-p...@googlegroups.com
Wouldn't that involve giving any new domain my personal information by default? Even if we're just talking about handing over a pseudonym from a big IdP with no attached attributes, that sounds like much more than I'm interested in giving to every site. Cookies are bad enough, eh?

Maybe I'm not seeing the use case you're fond of?
--
j

Chris Messina

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Mar 5, 2010, 9:28:09 PM3/5/10
to diso-p...@googlegroups.com
Replies inline.

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Erik Bigelow <erik...@gmail.com> wrote:
PuSH is cool, especially with Google working on implementing this into
search, but it's still solving a different user story.  It's pushing
public stories around real-time.  What if I only want my friends to
see it and not the rest of the world?

Nothing about PuSH requires these messages to be public. You could public-key encrypt them if you really wanted to.

PuSH just specifies a delivery mechanism for doing PubSub.

 

I want to build 6d because I want it to be my online identity.  Anyone
else that has a 6d site it will be their online identity.  If they
want to turn it into their aggregator for other networks, that's
great.  Or, because our idea of one user per 6d site, if ReadWriteWeb
gave each of it's editors a 6d site, and turned ReadWriteWeb into
sorta a "hub" 6d site where the editors work would all be pushed and
published, then they could.

This is the premise of the Diso Project. However, I don't think that it's a reasonable conclusion to force everyone down this path. I think that it should be an option provided by the marketplace, without any drawbacks compared with joining a "highrise social network". That is, if I want to live in the "countryside of the web", I should have that option; if I want to move to the city and live in a managed environment (like Facebook), I should also have that choice.

But I shouldn't be cut off from my friends if I choose one path or another.

 
6d is all about owning your information and identity, and getting to
choose exactly what you want to do with it. Facebook controls way to
much in their little mini-internet and can do whatever they want with
my info and I don't like that.  We'd really like each instance to be
that person's OpenID server also, to log into other sites, sites that
make sense to stay centralized.  That was one of my other reasons to
build 6d.  I really hate having to register at every site I go to.

You still have to provide an economic incentive for sites and site operators to implement, adopt, and invest in this technology. It's not enough to say that you want to control your own data and that people should implement technology to support that desire — there has to be something in it for the providers.

Put another way, if you are a site operator, why would you want your customers to be able to withhold basic information like contact details if you need to get in touch with them to provide them with service?

While I'm all for centralizing one's data in an identity hub of one's choosing — the alternative situation has to be as beneficial for the individual as the service providers.

We achieve this through economics of scale, lowering the cost of securing user accounts (by removing the need to handle passwords — when OpenID is used) and actually make it possible for service providers to have access to MORE and BETTER QUALITY data through standard APIs — when their customer decides to release it.

I imagine we're on the same page — but it's not a strong argument to just want to centralize and control your data — you have to also be able and willing to foment a marketplace that benefits when you have more control.
 

My vision with 6d is being able to pass messages back and forth with
my friends and peers.  Publish posts to the world.  And access other
sites by having that site authenticate me through my site.

This is essentially what WebFinger provides along with Salmon.

You should take a look at OStatus since they've already solving that problem:

 

Yes we'll support Activity Streams and other protocols that make
sense, but some of those things will be a layer on top of the basic
functionality of 6d.  You can almost think of 6d as your email over
HTTP with the ability to make things as public or private as you want.

Yep. But email really isn't good enough, because there's no "send to all" option currently... From the looks of it, 6D solves this problem — but I'd be careful about ONLY making email RESTful... there's much more social interaction design to consider in the model you're pursuing.

Chris

Erik Bigelow

unread,
Mar 5, 2010, 11:50:58 PM3/5/10
to Diso Project
Thanks Chris! Replies inline....of your inline.

> Nothing about PuSH requires these messages to be public. You could
> public-key encrypt them if you really wanted to.
>
> PuSH just specifies a delivery mechanism for doing PubSub.
>

Well part of the reason was also to keep things as light as possible.
We didn't want to use an XML solution when it seemed like the basics
of posting to friends and public could be done through HTTP/REST. It
may not be a great reason to some, but there's a few of benefits.

>
> This is the premise of the Diso Project. However, I don't think that it's a
> reasonable conclusion to force everyone down this path. I think that it
> should be an option provided by the marketplace, without any drawbacks
> compared with joining a "highrise social network". That is, if I want to
> live in the "countryside of the web", I should have that option; if I want
> to move to the city and live in a managed environment (like Facebook), I
> should also have that choice.
>
> But I shouldn't be cut off from my friends if I choose one path or another.
>

We're not trying to force everyone down that path (I think everyone
should WANT to go down this path but it's ludicrous to think everyone
will) . Part of the reason Facebook is successful is that it's free.
Our project pretty much forces you to buy a domain name and hosting
which is a show stopper for a lot of people. We just want to start
people off with the most simplified platform. I hope one of the first
things someone does is build a plugin to talk to facebook. (that
person will still have to have a facebook account though....ugh)

>
> You still have to provide an economic incentive for sites and site operators
> to implement, adopt, and invest in this technology. It's not enough to say
> that you want to control your own data and that people should implement
> technology to support that desire — there has to be something in it for the
> providers.

What would they have to invest in? I don't envision any of the closed/
centralized network has a reason to "talk" to us, but of course
they'll want to provide an API for everyone to talk to them so there
can be a plugin for 6d and hopefully they'll use some standard. (Yes
I realize the hypocrisy of me saying that ;). I'd be fine with some
standardized RESTful protocol, and maybe that's what we can work on,
or maybe we'll change how we do things.)

>
> Put another way, if you are a site operator, why would you want your
> customers to be able to withhold basic information like contact details if
> you need to get in touch with them to provide them with service?

I'm not sure how that info is withheld? There's a profile link that's
built to hold your info in hcard format. Also hopefully 6d will
launch with the ability to talk to 6d sites, and be a single-user
OpenID server.

>
> While I'm all for centralizing one's data in an identity hub of one's
> choosing — the alternative situation has to be as beneficial for the
> individual as the service providers.
>
> We achieve this through economics of scale, lowering the cost of securing
> user accounts (by removing the need to handle passwords — when OpenID is
> used) and actually make it possible for service providers to have access to
> MORE and BETTER QUALITY data through standard APIs — when their customer
> decides to release it.

Hell Yeah to OpenID!
6d can grow and be extended we don't want to limit users to our
RESTful ways at all. We just haven't built the plugin architecture
yet.

>
> I imagine we're on the same page — but it's not a strong argument to just
> want to centralize and control your data — you have to also be able and
> willing to foment a marketplace that benefits when you have more control.
>

We want 6d to grow and change with the user. We just want to provide
the most simplified starting point. It'll be open-source and PHP so
no one is locked into anything.

>
>
> > My vision with 6d is being able to pass messages back and forth with
> > my friends and peers. Publish posts to the world. And access other
> > sites by having that site authenticate me through my site.
>
> This is essentially what WebFinger provides along with Salmon.
>
> You should take a look at OStatus since they've already solving that
> problem:
>
> http://ostatus.org/
>

I'll take another look. Admittedly I haven't looked at Salmon yet.
There's a lot of these things to keep up with, and we also started
building this over a year ago in our spare time which isn't much.

>
> Yep. But email really isn't good enough, because there's no "send to all"
> option currently... From the looks of it, 6D solves this problem — but I'd
> be careful about ONLY making email RESTful... there's much more social
> interaction design to consider in the model you're pursuing.
>
> Chris
>

Like I said it's definitely not ONLY going to be RESTful. It's only
starting off RESTful, and we and others will build plugins to add more
capabilities of talking with others. Our business plan doesn't work
off of locking anyone off from doing whatever they want to their
site. That would be the path to Faildom. People will be able to
freely download it, never have anything to do with us again, and
we're fine with that. We're not greedy just hoping we can make a
decent living off this They still have a full version of the
application.

Thanks for taking the time to go through some of our thoughts but I
don't think we'd given you a full view of what we hope to achieve, and
yeah I think it is pretty well inline with what you would like.

Andreas Kuckartz

unread,
May 28, 2010, 12:17:58 PM5/28/10
to diso-p...@googlegroups.com
Chris Messina wrote (on March 2, 2010):
> @jg: in the early days of Diso, we thought that XMPP could be a
> part of this effort... turned out it was a bit too much to administer
> on commodity hosting providers, so we abandoned it. 6D says more
> or less the same thing on their site.

Today I installed an OpenFire XMPP server and the OneSocialWeb plugin on
a computer. I had not done that before and was interested to find out
how complicated and time-consuming the installation would be.

It turned out to be far more easy than I had expected. Obviously
administration involves a lot more than installation but so far I am not
convinced that XMPP is not suitable on "commodity hosting providers."

Cheers,
Andreas

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