external speaker hum, Disklavier Mark IV

[Lloyd Randolph]

After a long hiatus, I'm resuming my attempt to diagnose and fix this problem. Thanks, Geoff, for your follow-up inquiry (quoted below), and apologies for my delay in responding.

Unplugging audio cables from the output jacks of the I/O center stops the hum - but only temporarily. When I plug the cables back in, the hum resumes. That is so whether I have plugged in Yamaha's original-equipment speakers, MSP3D, or other speakers with a separate amplifier, and by using other wiring.

Put differently, when the speakers (whether the original ones or separately powered add-ons) are turned on, the hum is audible even during songs played solely by the piano's acoustic features.

In other words, when I play a song with midi tracks not played by my Mark IV's acoustic piano, e.g., a song with a track set to play as a midi with a string bass or drum set, I hear a hum. This hum is more evident on the left channel.

As noted in my original inquiry, I recently replaced the Mark IV's original hard drive with a solid state drive.

Given all this, I'm suspecting that the hum arises from some component(s) creating sounds from sources other than the piano's acoustic elements, i.e., by "playing" the midi tracks using electrical or electronic capabilities.

Does that preliminary diagnosis make sense to others in the group?

Is it likely that the hum comes from the failure of a card in the I/O or loose connection there?

What steps do you recommend that I purpose to further diagnose and correct this problem?

If a failing card is causing the hum, could I replace it by opening the I/O? With what should I replace it?

Thanks,

Lloyd

On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 10:47:13 PM UTC-5 gwar...@bigpond.com wrote:
Does the hum stop if you unplug the audio cables?

[Owen Sayers]

Hi Lloyd

Many years ago I had a problem with a hum in an audio set-up, not disklavier, that turned out to be a loose earth connection.   Could that be related to your recent alterations?

Owen

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From: disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com <disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Lloyd Randolph <lhr...@gmail.com>
Sent: 22 January 2024 16:29
To: Disklavier Support Group <disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: external speaker hum, Disklavier Mark IV

 

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[Spencer Chase]

Most hums in audio circuits are cause by ground issues, either missing or redundant grounds causing ground loops. Nose caused by ground loops can usually be eliminated with an isolation transformer or device. These separate the grounds completely between the input and the output. The signal is passed through without a physical common ground. Here is one on Amazon. There are many others that are fancier looking and cost a lot more. I would probably try something a little more expensive if you are concerned with fidelity. Also 

https://www.amazon.com/RECOIL-2-Channel-Isolator-Designed-Eliminate/dp/B08HMYJZ5V/ref=sr_1_9?crid=RIQVR5ZJ80WK&keywords=audio+isolation+transformer&qid=1705951421&sprefix=audio+iso%2Caps%2C198&sr=8-9

if the problem is noise generated internally by a hardware failure it will still be passed along. using the isolation transformer is a good way to eliminate ground loops as the cause and a cheap test. 

my Sprinter van had horrible hum if I plugged in external audio sources. I had the same problem with my Toyota Forerunner. In both cases the isolation transformer completely eliminated the noise. 

------ Original Message ------

From "Owen Sayers" <owen....@gmail.com>

To "disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com" <disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com>

Date 2024-01-22 11:10:27 AM

Subject Re: external speaker hum, Disklavier Mark IV

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/disklavier-support-group/CWXP123MB513205C221FDA581ACD88C82AE752%40CWXP123MB5132.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Lloyd Randolph]

Thanks, all.

Before replacing my Disklavier's hard drive, I tried this ground loop isolater:  Amazon.com: PYLE-PRO Compact Mini Hum Eliminator Box-2 Channel Passive Ground Loop Isolator,Noise Filter, AC Buzz Destroyer, Hum Killer w/ 2 1/4-Inch TRS Input and Output for 2 Mono /1 Stereo Signal - PHE300 : Musical Instruments

Unfortunately, it didn't eliminate the hum, so I'm wondering if a different one would have any better result.

Thoughts?

[Spencer Chase]

not likely  any isolator should work the only difference might be the quality of the audio passed. if the hum persists it is not caused by an IO caused ground loop.. there could be an intern al ground loop. hmmmm.. i think there was a mention of adding a solid state hard drive that caused the problem or maybe i am remembering another case? is is possible ? that the drive power connection is causing a ground loop?  the drive is not connected to the audio circuits but who knows. maybe try a separate power supply for the SSD?  If this is one of the replacement type drives it should be fairly easy to give it its own power supply. if it is a small one it probably only needs 5 volts. 

------ Original Message ------

From "Lloyd Randolph" <lhr...@gmail.com>

To "Disklavier Support Group" <disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com>

Date 2024-01-23 7:46:38 AM

Subject Re: Re[2]: external speaker hum, Disklavier Mark IV

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/disklavier-support-group/ece53135-9122-4f05-a3eb-e80cd794ac9dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Kevin Goroway]

Did this problem start when you put your piano back together after replacing the hard drive?  If so, I'd suspect that you missed a screw, or didn't tighten a screw and you've got a bad ground in there now.  As I recall (it's been ages) one of the peripheral cards installed in there was responsible for the audio I/O.  Cards generally have a screw on the top edge as part of their mounting, but it's also a ground path to the chassis.  Check that one in particular?

-Kevin

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/disklavier-support-group/ece53135-9122-4f05-a3eb-e80cd794ac9dn%40googlegroups.com

.

[Lloyd Randolph]

Thanks, all, for the helpful insights and suggestions concerning the hums now audible in the speakers connected to the Disklavier of my circa-2004 piano (an DGC1M4).

Hums in these speakers preceded (and in part prompted) my replacement last year of the Disklavier's hard drive, so (in response to Kevin's question) I don't think inadequate reassembly triggered the hums - but I'll have a look. 

If, as Jim suggests, an I/O board's capacitor may have failed, how would I confirm this? And how would I fix it? Where might I locate a replacement board for my existing I/O?   

I'm beginning to wonder if I should replace all of my piano's electronics. 

I hesitate to do this because of the expense and the opinions of some knowledgeable folks that the replacement (perhaps to a DKC-900) would have less flexibility and capability than my existing Disklavier (at least when the latter is properly functioning). 

Have others in the group made this transition already? If so, did the results please you? And how did you transfer your existing files onto the replacement?

Lloyd

On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 2:41 PM Jim Fitzwilliam <jfitzw...@netscape.net> wrote:

I believe that the source of your problem is probably a capacitor failure in the I/O board. 

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[Spencer Chase]

are there documents such as schematics and or component block diagrams? what do you mean by audio board? are you playing audio encoded MIDI files that have one stereo channel as accompaniement and the other the encoded MIDI?  so is the audio board just passing through audio from the WAV file you are playing or is it a synthesizer that you use to generate other instruments as accomp?

i am not familiar with DKV terms. if you only want to play one channel of audio and send one to the DKV as audio encoded MIDI you can get by without the audio board if it is generating hum. 

how loud is the hum did it appear suddenly or gradually?

if you are using the "audio" board as a synth for accomp then you are stuck with it and need to replace it if it is defective. if it only passes through audio you should be able to split the channels outside of the DKV and use your own amp and speakers. Cheaper than all new electronics. 

are you located where a Yamaha tech could check it out? Any decent electronics tech with a scope and schematics could figure it out but who knows what support information Yamaha provides. Some companies are great others are not.

And yes, a bad bypass capacitor could cause hum. Is this a common mode of failure for your model? Can you find information on recapping the board? 

------ Original Message ------

From "Lloyd Randolph" <lhr...@gmail.com>

To disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com

Date 2024-01-23 2:35:23 PM

Subject Re: Re[2]: external speaker hum, Disklavier Mark IV

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/disklavier-support-group/CAC6y6BKjAk2DhEgMhOKuC%3D-BUqys7-w%3DsC96OUgnvKJsNyrCrA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Geoff Ward]

LLoyd

I would take the power supply to an electronics service guy and let him/her check for bad capacitors and the existence of hum.  Some of these guys are very good and with more equipment than just a multimeter they can do all kinds of tests with or without a circuit diagram.

 

Cheers

 

Geoff

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[Spencer Chase]

A schematic makes it easier to trace but a simple scope is really all it takes to find the source of noise most of the time. You can get a PC scope for very little. The hard part is learning how to use it :)

The most common failure for all electronics today is connections, then passives like cheap capacitors.  I remember when Apple made a whole line of expensive Macs that mostly failed after about 2 years because they used cheap capacitors. All you had to do to fix them was find the caps with no brand names on them and replace them :) 

------ Original Message ------

From "'Geoff Ward' via Disklavier Support Group" <disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com>

To disklavier-s...@googlegroups.com

Date 2024-01-23 9:25:56 PM

Subject RE: Re[2]: external speaker hum, Disklavier Mark IV

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/disklavier-support-group/001c01da4e85%24cf059f40%246d10ddc0%24%40bigpond.com.

[Lloyd Randolph]

Thanks again for the advice from various of you on how best to solve the problem of audible hums in my external speakers.

I am very pleased to report that Jeremy Carlson of Carlson Keyboard Specialties LLC (the contractor I engaged) solved this problem by replacing my Disklavier's I/O unit. Initially he thought he could just replace a bad board in the I/O but concluded after further tests that he should replace the entire unit. 

Replacing the entire I/O cost much less than "upgrading" to a DKC-900. 

Jeremy advises that for non-upgraded Mark IVs, Yamaha has not provided a better controller or app than the (very antiquated) PRC100. Do you know of any apps for an Android device that I could use to control the piano? I'm aware only of Droidklavier. (I mostly rely on DKVBrowser on Windows to control my Disklavier-a wonderful solution except when I need to be close to the piano.)

Thanks again,

Lloyd

Lloyd

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[Howard McNally]

Loyd, I have an old Mark IV and need help connecting my PC to the Disklavier running a  program to play downloaded midi files. I know I had a cord to connect my pc, what is it. What program did you use on your pc to run the midi files? 

Appreciate any advice you can give me.

Best regards

Howard

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[Lloyd Randolph]

Howard,

On the side of the Mark IV Disklavier nearest the keyboard, you should find a jack labeled "LAN." See photo below. This jack accepts an ethernet cable. Without speculating, I can't say what cord you previously used, but I suspect that's the type you previously used to connect this to your PC. In my set-up, I do this indirectly (by plugging into my network) but if your PC has an ethernet jack, I suppose you could plug the cable into your PC directly. 

As mentioned below, I mostly use dkvBrowser to play midi files stored on my Disklavier. You can find more details about it here.

Lloyd

[Stu Miller]

Good work, Lloyd!  Thank you. 

Stu 

On Feb 1, 2024, at 10:16 AM, Lloyd Randolph <lhr...@gmail.com> wrote:



Lloyd

<20240201_105039.jpg>

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[Geoff Ward]

Lloyd,

Glad you got it fixed.

On how to interface with DKV Mark IV, I do it differently to most people.

Firstly, I keep all my midi files on my laptop, rather than the HDD of the DKV – I just find the PRC 100 too tedious.  Had I discovered DKVBrowser when I first bought my Mark IV, I might well have used that with material on the HDD.

So, I keep my midi files in numerous folders on my Windows laptop, which is connected to the Mark IV wirelessly using an M-VAVE MS1 Mini Wireless Adapter.  On the laptop, I use either VanBasco Karaoke Player or Cakewalk Pro Audio v9 to play or edit midi files.

I have also copied many of my midi file folders to an iPad Pro (which I also use mainly to display sheet music) and can play them using the Sweet Midi iPad app, also connecting via the M-Vave adapter.

 

I have also mounted a Netgear network extender under the piano and connect the piano to the internet using an Ethernet cable.  With this connection I can use DKVBrowser or Disklavier Radio to play midi files.  I do have some midi files on the DKV HDD – those that came with the piano and some Musicsoft + Audio files. 

 

I am actually experimenting at the moment with making my own midi + audio/video files, using music tracks from Youtube and Spotify, extracting the piano sound, converting it to a midi file, then converting it to an “analogue” midi file and recombining it with the other sounds from the original audio track.  How do I do this?  Have a look at the programs and utilities available for this purpose on Spencer Chase’s website - https://www.spencerserolls.com/ and look for the link For those who want information and tools for using Audio to MIDI click here 

 

I am also playing around with synchronised midi and video using the OMNI input on the Mark IV.  How do I do this?  Download a video of a pianist, extract the audio, extract the piano using FADR (https://fadr.com/  - if there are other instruments present, such as vocal, bass and drums), convert the piano sound to midi using the audio to midi utilities from Spencer’s website, converting the midi to analogue midi using MIDI2pianoCD (http://www.kinura.net/mid2pianocd/ ), then inserting the analogue midi as the LH audio track of the original video (in a video editor – Adobe Premiere Pro) with the rest of the original audio (minus the piano) in the RH audio track.  The HDMI output from the PC is connected to the TV and the headphone socket is connected to the OMNI IN sockets of the Mark IV.  The piano plays the midi piano component and the TV sitting on top of the piano plays the video and the rest of the audio.  I’m not there yet, but getting close. 

 

The alternative (for which I have had success) is to create a digital midi from the video clip, play that through Cakewalk and play the video through Windows Media Player (with audio muted) and synchronise it manually at the start of play (not that hard to do to get perfect sync).

 

I hope that this is of interest.

 

Kind regards

 

Geoff Ward

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[Lloyd Randolph]

Thanks, Geoff.

I'm dazzled by the complexity of your objectives and of your means for pursuing them! 

I hope you'll get what you're trying to do to work, and when you do, that you'll send me a sample.

Lloyd

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/disklavier-support-group/002f01da5556%24838f3580%248aada080%24%40bigpond.com.

[Howard McNally]

Loyd,

My bad news is my controller is older than I thought.  I have a midi -in and a midi-out , two rca plugs and that’s it. I must have had a midi to pc cord that allowed me to play downloaded midi files.  For example, the catholic publisher of the daily masses and all kinds of songs.  All the songs in the hymnal  were available on their website including midi files.

I guess I have to upgrade 

Howard

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