Publicly Funded Sudbury Schools?

[Mason McGhee]

So far I have only heard of one school in Oregon that was successfully publicly funded as a Sudbury school, has anyone heard of other schools who have been able to gain public funding or know of any that are working on it? 

Also if anyone has any resources/knowledge on how public schools receive funding I am interested in learning.

Thanks!

[Fred Schueler]

Quoting Mason McGhee <mason.a...@gmail.com>:

> Also if anyone has any resources/knowledge on how public schools receive
> funding I am interested in learning.

* in a democratic country, all public schools are run on a democratic basis.

fred.
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[Scott David Gray]

Hi Mason,

The term "Sudbury" education is as hard and messy to define as "democracy." No body has any legal or moral authority to define "Sudbury." And there are, indeed, some self-labelled "Sudbury" schools out there that do not match my criteria for a school that I would associate with that label. Sudbury is not a franchise.

There is a great deal of debate -- some of it in the archives of this mailing list -- on the pros and cons of seeking public funding.  http://www.sudval.com/05_articles.html

Without going into details (which are findable by searching), I will say that so far each effort to publicly fund a Sudbury school has ended in heartache.

We have found that, eventually, he who pays the piper calls the tune. Governments (including government agencies responsible for OKing voucher programs) like to have students take tests to demonstrate that they are succeeding by some bureaucratic standard. And, eventually, when a publicly funded school refuses to supply such measures, the funding is cut.

It's no secret that governments like tests and measures. In many cases, they refuse private schools to exist, if such private schools refuse to do such testing. In at least one case, parents and others involved in a school have found themselves facing possible jail time -- http://www.educationfutures.com/2013/03/29/is-there-no-room-for-democracy-in-dutch-schools/. Given this tendency for governments to tolerate private Sudbury schools, it should be no surprise that they are not happy to have their tax-base foot the bill for them.

Finally, I'd suggest that the Sudbury virtue of personal responsibility and effective use of resources can make it counter-productive for such a school to be funded by means other than tuition. Reliance on tuition has kept the real costs of operating such schools much, much smaller than the typical public school budget. That thrift seems to be part of who we are, and something that we would/could lose if someone else were paying the bills.

Regards, Scott

--
-- Scott David Gray
http://www.sudval.org/

[Dawn Legault]

There are two in Toronto, Ontario Canada named Aplha at the elementary level and Alpha 2 at the high school level.  I too am keen to learn how they havr achieved this.  Mason, would you share what you learn?
Dawn

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[Alex Linsker]

I live in Portland Oregon, and work on statewide policy issues. I'm interested in how any states, countries, cities, counties or districts do fund education where students have more self-organization and civic ability to learn and do what they care about than typical public schools in the U.S. 

What policies are written into the laws (the statutes)? Obviously cultural expectations matter too:  what good marketing campaigns are done by governments to promote self-leadership?

I'm leading an Oregon constitutional amendment that will get $1.5 billion more for schools each year (and other benefits), and I lead a workplace for adults (kids sometimes work here too) called Collective Agency, modeled on Brooklyn Free School and other democratic workplaces.

Thanks,

Alex

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322 NW Sixth Ave, Suite 200, Portland, Oregon 97209

[Demian Schwartz]

I live in Eugene, OR and am one of the founders of Eugene Sudbury School, which is registered with the state in a way that makes it eligible for public funding- although we operate as a private school right now. I was also a staff member of Blue Mountain School, the publicly funded Sudbury school. I'd love to get together and talk about legislation. I've met with the chair of our state senate sub-committee on education about the laws we have now and how they might make alternative models of education accessible, but am busy working at school most of my waking hours. Can I get a lobbyist?

Demian Schwartz MEd.

(541) 359-8067 cell

Sent from my iPhone

[Mason McGhee]

Dawn, I will definitely look into those schools and share what I learn.

Alex, I'm interested too! Keep posting if you learn more, I want to learn as much as I can about the policies involved with education funding (and how to change them!).

Demian, I would love to talk more about the schools' efforts in achieving public funding if you would be available to chat sometime. If you are, email me at mason.a...@gmail.com and maybe we can set something up. 

Just an overview of who I am, I'm looking to one day start a publicly funded democratic school so I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the whole process of starting such a school and the challenges that come with it.

[Martin Wilke]

Ting-Schule in Berlin (Germany) ist partially publicly funded. After 5 years* all non-state schools get public funding of about 60-65 percent of what state schools get per student. (primary schools (1-6) get funding after 5 years, secondary schools (7-13) get fundung after 3 years.) Funding does not depend on the school's concept. But the school has to get a permission to operate in the first place (since there is 10 years of compulsory schooling; homeschooling or unschooling is illegal).

Martin Wilke
Demokratische Schule X (now in our 4th year)

Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Dezember 2013 um 21:29 Uhr
Von: "Mason McGhee" <mason.a...@gmail.com>
An: discuss-su...@googlegroups.com
Betreff: [DSM] Publicly Funded Sudbury Schools?

So far I have only heard of one school in Oregon that was successfully publicly funded as a Sudbury school, has anyone heard of other schools who have been able to gain public funding or know of any that are working on it? 

Also if anyone has any resources/knowledge on how public schools receive funding I am interested in learning.

Thanks!

--

[Scott David Gray]

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Martin Wilke <martin...@gmx.net> wrote:

Ting-Schule in Berlin (Germany) ist partially publicly funded. After 5 years* all non-state schools get public funding of about 60-65 percent of what state schools get per student. (primary schools (1-6) get funding after 5 years, secondary schools (7-13) get fundung after 3 years.) Funding does not depend on the school's concept. But the school has to get a permission to operate in the first place (since there is 10 years of compulsory schooling; homeschooling or unschooling is illegal).

Hi Martin,

Ultimately, can those two things really be separated? I would imagine that (whether or not it has manifested in a terrible way for Ting-Schule, yet) the knowledge that "all schools get public funding of about 60-65%" weighs heavily in the hearts and minds of those who set and apply the standards for which schools get permission to operate in the first place. In practice, how does this work in Berlin, to keep each arm politically unaware of what the arm is doing?

Curious, Scott

--
-- Scott David Gray

http://www.unseelie.org/

[Martin Wilke]

Those people in the ministry of education who decide on the permission are probably not concerned about the financial aspects but rather about pedagogical or ideological aspects (or just that everything looks nice on the paper). If they were concered about the financial aspects they'd realize that they are actually saving money for the state (because in a state school each students costs much more).

Martin

Gesendet: Sonntag, 29. Dezember 2013 um 14:15 Uhr
Von: "Scott David Gray" <sg...@unseelie.org>
An: "discuss-su...@googlegroups.com" <discuss-su...@googlegroups.com>
Betreff: Re: [DSM] Publicly Funded Sudbury Schools?

[Jim Whiteford]

This is indeed a thorny issue. 

Those of you who have been dipping into this list for a while may remember me writing previously that it is actually against the law for a school to charge tuition in Sweden. The logic is that all children have a right to education, and as such their access to that education may not to be based on their family's ability to pay for it. There are one or two anomalies to the law, for example the school that the Monarchy sends their kids to, but otherwise... 

My logic is that if the Government insists that all kids must go to school (like Germany, unschooling and homeschooling are illegal here too), they also have a duty to make all types of school available. Shame the Department of Education doesn't see it like that ;) 

Some have suggested to me that I do my best to get support among the grassroots, and bluff my way through the various hoops and start a school anyway... But I am loathe to do that. For one thing, as a human, parent and former teacher I am proud of the Sudbury model, and very inspired by it. If I am to promote it and talk to its virtues, which I do often amongst friends and anyone who asks, I want to do it openly. If I can't really say what it's about or how it actually works, I think I have little chance in making a lasting impression on anyone. Furthermore, being more or less familiar with stories from other schools, both in the US and elsewhere, that have received public money to begin with and then had that funding chopped, I would rather seek to cement the basis of the school as much as possible in the beginning, as transparently as possible, before it is even open. (Not saying that wasn't done by those schools that weren't fortunate enough to continue with public funding, but you get my point.)  

Whereas I fully understand and appreciate your argument, Scott, in terms of thrift and in particular SVS' longevity and durability, part of me still thinks there must be another way. It is simply unacceptable to me that, in a country such as Sweden for example, a publicly funded Sudbury school cannot exist. And not simply exist, as a one night wonder, but be confident and unafraid in its right to exist. Those of us connected to this list and this model are well aware of the daily travesties that occur throughout the world in the name of State sponsored education. How can it be that the one educational model that actually is democratic, that actually fosters a sense of community as well as offering systematic support for the absolute right of the individual to determine her own course of action according to her own set of values, is the one type of school that the Government won't support? 

Well, we kind of know how that can be, how compulsory schooling came about and arguably what its actual purpose is. Nonetheless, this feeling of injustice is one of the things that motivates me. And besides, even in Massachusetts, the law stipulates that kids attend school a minimum number of hours (5?) per day, right? So even if the state doesn't pay for it, it does in some ways create a favourable basis for demand. I guess that's a good tradeoff, as far as SVS is concerned. Point I'm trying to make is, as I opened with, if you're gonna force people to go to school, is it logical or fair to also force them to pay for it?  

Jim. 

 

[Scott David Gray]

But people are forced to pay for schools run by the state -- even those of us not attending them are forced to pay for them. Public schools don't cost nothing -- and the state (reasonably!) wants to exert some authority to check up on or demand things of those contractors that it hires with it's citizen's money.

--
-- Scott Gray

[Jared Cosulich]

Out of curiosity has there ever been an attempt to open a Sudbury-like school that is publicly financed where everyone in the community (including parents and students) are made aware of the requirements imposed by the state and the community figures out how to meet those requirements (through the school meeting or something)?

I realize that this is a significant divorce from the Sudbury model. I'm just curious if anything like this has been attempted. If so, how did it play out?

[D B]

My son went to Windsor House School in North Vancouver, BC which is fully publicly funded. It has some aspects of a Sudbury-like a democratic model. One way it is different is that parental involvement is encouraged. WH had the advantage of operating under the radar for 35 years before  some bean counters noticed it and didn't like that it was not following the provincial rules. It then pressured the school district who had been ignoring us, to try and get us in line. The government underestimated the cohesiveness of the community and that it would galvanize and fight back in a very powerful and articulate way, which it did. The community found ways to compromise with the province and it with us to get around rules to survive. For example, the province insisted that report cards be written. All parents sign waivers to opt out of looking at the report cards and they are put in an office and ignored. As has always been the case, kids can request report cards and marks if they want them and/or need them for whatever reason. It has usually always been mostly older kids who want report cards so they can officially  "graduate" and go on to university or next steps in educational institutions.

And yes I would say the process of decision making was very much about the community coming together to figure out how to meet requirements and be true to our philosophy if that was possible, and we definitely came close to deciding to close at points. As one kid pointed out, all our democratic decisions have always had to be made within a set of larger laws, by-laws and rules. And they are made within a broader cultural and environmental contexts as well. He reminded us in the past of the kids saying they didn't want to be so safe and protected and we developed play rules that compromised between their stated wants and fire and health department regulations. Same was true for democratically decided rules about different kinds of substance use. Criminal law plays an important role there whether or not a school is publicly funded.

---

From: jared.c...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 15:51:48 -0800
Subject: Re: [DSM] Publicly Funded Sudbury Schools?
To: discuss-su...@googlegroups.com

[Jared Cosulich]

Specifically how did the government want the school to "fall in line". How did they want to change the school exactly?

In general are the requirements around publicly funded schools so onerous that it would be impossible to accommodate them and maintain anything even resembling the autonomy provided by a Sudbury school? I realize that the requirements change depending on where you are, so maybe that's a hard question to answer. I just don't know much about what demands come along with public financing...

[Jim Whiteford]

Yes, you're right of course Scott, and it was somewhat sloppily expressed of me. Our tax money does pay for public schools, like them or not, attend them or not. As it also pays for weapons development and deployment, health care facilities (in many countries), public transport and so on, whether we use them or not, or agree or disagree with the way they are used and managed. And we hope to have some influence over these things through our vote. Such are the complexities of democracy and politics. Nonetheless, unlike all these others that taxes normally pay for, we as individuals (especially those individuals under the age of 18), are not physically compelled to partake in these activities or systems regardless of our own will and opinion (compulsory military service aside - and even then only in the minority of countries, and several years at most, but certainly not 9 or 10 as is the case with schooling in the majority of countries across the globe.) That puts compulsory schooling in a league of its own, it seems to me. 

At this point I feel it is important to state for the record that I am not arguing that all Sudbury schools should be publicly funded, or that privately funded schools are bad. I should also say, as it has been raised in this thread already, that when I say "Sudbury school" what I really mean is SVS as a concept, and the principles, practices and ethos that the school has developed and honed, as a school, since its inception. 

Frankly, the more Sudbury schools there are, the better. How they are funded will naturally depend on the cultural, historical and political context of the culture they exist within. Because I find myself in Sweden, with two children going through school, the issue of public funding appears to be quintessential. I agree that it is reasonable for the State to have checks and controls in place for how its contractors spend its money. But I also think it is reasonable for the State to duly consider the evidence available.

If one takes SVS as an example for the model, which I have done, there is a great deal of evidence and documentation to support the view expressed at the conclusion of Legacy of Trust. That students enjoy "at the very least, the full range of life choices available to every other group of young people going out into the world. And they enjoy a childhood of freedom, respect and trust." In other words, if one were to take one's attention away from the specifics of the radical methodology that most people and virtually all governmental agencies find so unsettling,  and focus on the results instead, it would not take long to reach the conclusion that students at a Sudbury school in fact gain what most people and virtually all governmental agencies strive for  in the name of education: individuals with a profound sense of self-reliance, real experience of personal responsibility, genuine understanding of democratic community, and a tried and tested basis for their personal values. All of these things are impossible to teach, it seems to me. But they are all things that contribute immeasurably to the life of an individual, and by extension the community (familial, social, professional and so on) that these individuals choose to spend time in as adults. 

If one contrasts these things with the sorts of things that traditional schooling typically leaves its graduates with, it seems morally indefensible to me that a State, such as the Swedish one, can deny an individual the option to choose a Sudbury education if they feel that would suit them best. By all means apply checks and balances for the expenditure of funds, but do so from an informed point of view, that takes into account the evidence. In this case, that the absence of a curriculum, standardised testing and coercive "education" does not in fact result in anything negative, if applied in the way that SVS has done now for more than 40 years. And so as tuition is not an option in Sweden, a Sudbury school here would have to be publicly funded. 

And even as I write this, I am reminded of Gatto's description of the huge administration machine behind compulsory schooling, as described in an anecdote in Weapons of Mass Instruction: he refers to it as "a house of smoke and mirrors." Because actually the funding is somewhat of a red-herring. Yes, it is essential to address this problem in Sweden; and arguably it might be helpful in other countries were Sudbury schools to be eligible for public funding as other schools are. But isn't the real issue that of control? It is fundamental to the Sudbury model that intellectual freedom is absolute and non-negotiable, and isn't this something that tends to send shivers down the State's spine? And isn't this one of the reasons that compulsory schooling, founded in Prussia, ended up being so popular amongst the power brokers of nations taking off into the brave new world of industrialism? As a way of controlling or at least subduing the masses? 

Well, whether one subscribes to the conspiratorial element of the beginnings of compulsory education or not, control is a key factor of its implementation at all levels, even today. Hence the necessity for grading, testing, age segregation, timetables, bells, subjects, autocratic governance, the list is almost endless... And so, how it is paid for, is perhaps just another factor that serves to make the real issue more diffuse? 

[KarenL]

Interesting conversation!  I once tried to get a democratic public charter school approved in Minnesota (the birthplace of charter schools).  However, we were told that we could offer our own "curriculum" as long as we would test kids every other year, and show they "improved".  Like others on the list, I then had a dilemma: start the school anyway, hoping that the testing thing would work out, or give up because I didn't want our school to be judged by test scores (thereby putting pressure on kids and adults to somehow make those scores go up).  Our group decided that didn't make sense for us.  We didn't want to start it, put all that work into it, and then have it measured by methods that were counter to our school's philosophy.

Ironically, I now work for a public charter school that DOES use test scores- but doesn't pretend to be democratic, except in a loose sense.  We do require math classes, but students get to choose their own projects in the different content areas.  Their projects get judged by the amount of time and learning the students exhibit, thereby earning credits.  We do all the state tests, and some other testing (MAPP) besides.  (website is www.lovethisschool for more info)

I still wish there was a public Sudbury-type school in Minnesota, but we do have the Gaia school, a private democratic school that just started here. 

There are so many tradeoffs in this world!  What I decided with my own children was just to do my best working for alternatives, and then choose the ones that were most suited to them.  And the decisions were mainly made by my children, who used enrolling in "regular school" as their rebellion against mom's "kooky" alternatives at times.  They knew I was trying to get them the best education I could.  And in the end, that's what seemed to matter the most. 

[D B]

On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:20:45 PM UTC-8, Jared Cosulich wrote:

> Specifically how did the government want the school to "fall in line". How did they want to change the school exactly?

> 

> In general are the requirements around publicly funded schools so onerous that it would be impossible to accommodate them and maintain anything even resembling the autonomy provided by a Sudbury school? I realize that the requirements change depending on where you are, so maybe that's a hard question to answer. I just don't know much about what demands come along with public financing...

Jared,

The context of the "education" environment certainly makes a difference but I can speak to the situation I know about. It was a few years ago now but I remember some of the issues and some of them created unexpected positive results. 

1. I mentioned report cards which were always something that was considered a service available to those students who wanted one anyway. Parents always opt out of looking at them (the district requires that a paper be signed so now parents officially opt out of looking at them which is a bit of a plus). It''s actually a bit more clearly structured that kids only get one if they want one and share if they want to. 

2. Number of hours of instruction and time spent in school were other issues. We got around them by registering as an online school in a completely different district such that number of hours spent in a brick and mortar building became irrelevant. But we maintained the brick and mortar. It added flexibility for those who don't want to come to the school every day which was a plus. 

 3. There were and are legal issues related to minors banking and having responsibility for a budget and having decision making authority over certain matters. Thus, previously we had a third party organization that takes its direction from the kids and "donates" the money back to the kids. We had to do some tweaking of that system after the scrutiny and I believe the kids now hire an outside accountant for some of the "budget accountability" matters. 

4. Hiring and firing authority had to be negotiated but the job requirements are sufficiently specialized and unique that I think the kids end up hiring who they want anyway. It's unionized workplace but I can't think of a time when a person stayed when the community wanted them gone.

5. Other issues that come to mind had to do with criminal background checks of the many adults who interact in the school, tightening up of safety and attendance tracking, disclaimers forms and those sorts of things related to liability for field trips, camping, group travel, etc. Many of those were reasonable but paperwork heavy.

Turned out nothing was a deal breaker and the dialogue resulted in a certain amount of awareness and enlightenment about the school. A major upside is that because it is publicly funded, the school is accessible to whomever wants to come and not just those who can afford to pay fees. I'm speaking in generalities here and don't claim a memory or knowledge of the specifics.

---

From: jared.c...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:20:45 -0800

Subject: Re: [DSM] Publicly Funded Sudbury Schools?
To: discuss-su...@googlegroups.com

Specifically how did the government want the school to "fall in line". How did they want to change the school exactly?

In general are the requirements around publicly funded schools so onerous that it would be impossible to accommodate them and maintain anything even resembling the autonomy provided by a Sudbury school? I realize that the requirements change depending on where you are, so maybe that's a hard question to answer. I just don't know much about what demands come along with public financing...

[Florent Berthet]

I think it's not in our interest to act in an all or nothing way when launching a school. A school that is "half Sudbury" is still better than one that isn't Sudbury at all - it can even be a first step toward a 100% Sudbury school. So we should be open to tradeoffs and do what we can. It's will still be possible to do some political advocacy for the democratic model while you are running your school.

2014/1/2 D B <kam...@hotmail.com>

[Lydia Soleil]

Florent (and others),

This has been a great thread so thank you to all of you who have engaged in it.

I actually think we have to be very careful about the idea of 1/2 Sudbury.  The Sudbury model is as different from traditional education as a car is from a horse.  Both are models of education but as their core they are fundamentally different just like a horse and a car are both modes of transportation but fundamentally different. 

My husband and I are both founders of the Sudbury School of Atlanta and one of the (many) things we have been discussing lately is that those who want to advocate for the Sudbury model have to help others in society realize that it is not about public versus private education but is about a horse (traditional education) versus a car (Sudbury education).  Publicly funded traditional model education is often a basic horse in a basic stable with basic equipment and facilities (or variations on that theme depending where you live and the support for public education in your area) while traditional model private education is often a very expensive horse breed in a very nice stable with very nice equipment and facilities but in the end, both are horses.  With Sudbury, we are talking about a total paradigm shift to a completely different model of education, the car in this analogy.  It can be funded publicly (eventually) or privately but we have to get society first to understand and buy-in to a completely different paradigm of education that is not anything like traditional education in terms of means or ends.  Then we can ask them to invest in it, publicly (long-term goal) or privately (for now).  No one wanted to buy cars and pay for government (taxpayer) funded paved roadways and bridges until they believed in the paradigm of the car over the horse as the preferred mode of transport!  It's an analogy and not perfect but hopefully it resonates and makes the point.

Another important point is to focus energy where one gets the best ROI (return on investment).  We can educate folks to the best of our abilities about the two models but in the end, the best use of time is to "follow the yeses" and engage those who learn about the model and it resonates with them verses trying to convince those who are totally opposed.  After about two years of doing info sessions for prospective parents, we have gotten pretty good at distinguishing between those two sets of folks.  There are those who nod their heads during our presentation and then during the Q and A say things like  "Interesting, wow, can you tell me more about how the students learn to read, what does that look like?" versus those who doing the Q and A say "Wait, but how will they EVER learn to read?  Students need structure, instruction, curriculum, you can't just trust them to learn all those things on their own."  We don't ignore the first kind at all but we actively focus our efforts on the latter.  Often, we have one parent of each type in the same family which is always interesting!  Some of those families enroll and some don't.  How our education efforts can best be applied to society at large and politicians is another matter and something we talk about a lot!  Please share any ideas!

Relate to education and advocacy, I totally agree that those who want to advocate for Sudbury schools while running schools, any schools, should!  One note of caution is that if you are in the U.S. and have 501(c) 3 (non-profit, tax-exempt) status, you have to be careful and be sure advocacy work is being done by individuals acting as individuals not as representatives of the school as that is not legally permissible.

Best,

-Lydia Soleil, Ph.D.

Founder and Parent, Sudbury School of Atlanta

http://www.sudburyschoolofatlanta.org
 

[Florent Berthet]

Hi Lydia, thanks for your comment.

About outreaching and political advocacy, don't you think we lack a way to quickly convince people of the merits of the Sudbury model? Wouldn't it be great if we had a nice movie to introduce this concept (such as an animated movie like companies often put on their homepage). One of the first things that should appear are a proof that the alumni end up just as well - if not better - than the people who went to other types of schools. 

One way to start thinking about this is to ask ourselves "how would companies communicate on this if this was a multi-billion dollar market?".

2014/1/2 Lydia Soleil <lyd...@alum.wpi.edu>

[Jared Cosulich]

I'm not sure it's possible to "quickly convince" people of the merits behind Sudbury Valley. It's a pretty big shift from the status quo and I think people generally require more than one piece of evidence, especially if that evidence is produced by the organization itself, to legitimately change someone's thinking about something as dogmatic as education.

That said, it does seem that it would be helpful for people who want to learn more about Sudbury Valley to have a wider array of resources available. High quality video interviews with alumni might go a long way toward dispelling some of the more extreme fears that come to mind when people are first exposed to these ideas.

I'd be curious to hear from people who have been involved with Sudbury Valley for longer to know if these PR strategies have been considered or tried in the past.

[Mike Sadofsky]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+lives+of+alumni+sudbury+valley+school+&sm=12

I guess you folk are looking for more than this.

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[Jared Cosulich]

Interesting. I haven't seen these before. Are they linked to from the website?

Was there any observable effect when these were released?

 

[Matt Pazoles]

Lydia - 

Just wanted to clarify on the c3 restrictions you mentioned.  Obviously, everyone considering doing some advocacy should read up on the relevant laws (check out http://www.independentsector.org/advocacy#sthash.WLWDe6un.JL33fUnO.dpbs for a summary), but broadly, unless you're promoting a specific bill, you're fine without having to do any additional paperwork.  Loads of c3 organizations engage actively in issue advocacy (like Planned Parenthood and the ACLU) very effectively.

Matt

[Mimsy Sadofsky]

I guess "like" is for Facebook -- where it is often the wrong term.  I want to press the "like" button here -- for Lydia's analogy!

Mimsy