new wonderful unity car game on shockwave.com

[peel peel]

on my machine it's just unplayable... camera is doing anything, car bumps everywhere and keeps stuck in corners... adobe can really say thank you to unity webplayer developers

[Gene Endrody]

I don't really understand this post. What game? From my experience, camera code has much more to do with the developer's skills than the plug-in. I'm a Shockwave developer and don't use Unity but I certainly wouldn't pass judgment on Unity because the camera code in one particular Unity game has issues. If you've done camera code in Director, you know that they give some standard commands to work with and then it's up to you to make something elegant. I would imagine the same is true for Unity.

 

Gene

MaidMarian.com

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[CC Chamberlin]

URL?

CC

[Gaz Bushell]

Yup it's going to be down to the developer, I ve seen some nonsense in director too over the years and it never put me off.  At the end of the day though unity is acually very close to director in the way that it uses behaviours, except your behaviours are attached to gameobjects,  models cameras etc instead of just sprites in director where a 3d world is thought of as a sprite.( that may have improved I haven t used director since 11) Also the code runs much faster in unity more like as 3 or java lingo always used to struggle to process lots of things at once. But like director you get options on what language to use.    

><}> from iPhone

[peel peel]

hi guys

i'm just comparing what's made with director and what's made with unity on these game portals, and i can see unity games have systematically an uncontrollable and buggy gameplay

according to you, the reason seem to be that that guys developing online unity games are bad developers... so if unity is the best, why bad developers use it? and why good devs (infdat, maidmarian, silent bay...) keep on using director ?

i'd like to understand...

i'm interested in unity but each time a new game made with unity comes to portals, it's a complete disaster... so for the moment i don't really want to waste months of work to learn unity...

2010/2/21 Gaz Bushell <g...@fayju.com>

[peel peel]

I see another very strange point with unity :

If it's such a great engine, the unity team should have dev a good online game to advert it.. a game like maidmarian or hopeless2, faster and nicer

They didn't.

Why ?

[Marty Poulin]

Hi Peel,

For a good multiplayer Unity game check out Fusion Fall.  

Having done high end work in both Unity3D and Director in my experience Unity3D is at least as good and a better at some tasks than Director.  Director still has an edge in a few areas such and 2D and UI, but Unity3D does a much better job with production workflow for 3D.

At this point the tradeoffs are related to market share, ease of use and polish.  If you are trying to get a top end 3D experience out, you will have to consider Unity.  Just remember you are likely leaving 50% of your user base behind since they do not have the Unity3D plugin.

-Marty

[Bart Libert (EducaSoft BVBA)]

From what I understand from it, you cannot compare the quality of an
engine with what work you have seen which has been done with it.

I'm pretty sure Gene could port sherwood forrest to unity and it would
look almost the same.

If you give me the most expensive and best paint , canvas and painting
tools, then I am still going to produce rubish compared to a real
artist who you gave a piece of paper and some charcoal

Both unity3d and director have advantages and disadvantages.

2010/2/23 Marty Poulin <marty...@gmail.com>:

[Ben Pitt]

On 23/02/2010 05:01, peel peel wrote:
> hi guys
>
> i'm just comparing what's made with director and what's made with
> unity on these game portals, and i can see unity games have
> systematically an uncontrollable and buggy gameplay

Let me help you:

http://unity3d.com/gallery/
http://unity3d.com/gallery/game-list/

There are a number of valid criticisms that can be levelled at Unity.
"Uncontrollable and buggy gameplay" is not one, in my opinion.

- Ben

du...@robotduck.com

[Pascal Auberson]

It's true each has their advantages, but really Unity3d is way better
in terms of the 3d visual quality you can get, even with all the old
director undocumented hacks. Unity3d is however lacking in 2d, video &
sound support.

Pascal.

[Bart Libert (EducaSoft BVBA)]

There you have it.

2D in unity is not the same as in director and I miss it very much.

Videoquality is indeed NOT GOOD in unity3d. Currently they use ogg
theora and you really cannot compare it to flash video and such.

About audio support, I can say that unity recently changed the under
the hood soundengine to FMOD, so I expect a lot more audio
functionality in the future.

Future will tell

2010/2/23 Pascal Auberson <pas...@specialmoves.com>:

[CC Chamberlin]

See "Fusion Fall" as mentioned earlier. That's your example. It's
enjoyed heavy exposure by the Cartoon Network and sale in stores like
Target, so it's at least able to provide an experience that's up to
Cartoon Network's standards. Solidly favorable reviews from a quick
Google search: 75% on Metacritic, 5/5 joysticks from PC Game Review,
7/10 from IGN, 5/5 from MMOGamer, 296 yes to 30 no votes on PC World,
8.0 from DreamStation, 7.2 from GameZone, and 3.5 stars on Amazon.
(And I'm not omitting any negative results - every one I looked at was
positive.) And it was apparently popular enough that Cartoon Network
is making spin-off products like comics off of the game. I'd say this
qualifies it as a "good online game" by any reasonable definition.

Can you provide the URL of the unity game you mentioned earlier,
please?

Thanks,

CC

[Bart Libert (EducaSoft BVBA)]

LEGO is also creating games with unity at this moment. Its not known
yet which games, but if lego chooses unity3d, then I recall lego once
used director.

2010/2/23 CC Chamberlin <c...@nmsu.edu>:

[Outside the Box Software]

It's a shame that the only topic around here that gets any replies are Unity
threads..

Anyway remember that Gorillaz car havac demo in ~2002? It had alright
graphics for the time but the controls and physics simulation were terrible.
But as time went on Physics-based games in Shockwave improved. I imagine
some web developers are going through the same learning curve with Unity. Or
it could be Shockwave.com is picking the low-hanging fruit of Unity games
and the better games are elsewhere. Blurst (www.blurst.com) has some
impressive Unity web games that would not look as clean in Shockwave.

- Chris

[Bart Libert (EducaSoft BVBA)]

Want another nice demo of unity capability

http://starwars.lego.com/en-us/FunAndGames/CloneWars-Quest-For-R2D2.aspx

Woops, LEGO, nice stuff. A lot different then lego backlot made with
director. And that doesn't make backlot less interesting...

2010/2/23 Outside the Box Software <in...@outsidetheboxsoftware.com>:

[CC Chamberlin]

On Feb 23, 2010, at 3:24 AM, Outside the Box Software wrote:

> It's a shame that the only topic around here that gets any replies are Unity threads.

Well, it's the only thread topic that gets started that concerns all of us. Most of the other posts are about specific technical issues.

So let's change that. Anyone have any cool new/recent Director projects to show off or give a preview on? Let's see the cool things our people are doing instead of hand-wringing about what people on the Unity side are doing...

CC

[Gene Endrody]

Had another look at the chart and I know Wizards 101 is at 4-5 million. I
think they must have missed a decimal place somewhere on the chart or in the
data.

Gene

[Gene Endrody]

My messages to the list are being delayed and coming in out of order. Sorry
about that, particularly now that CC is attempting to change the topic. I
was referring to a chart on the unique monthly visitors of Fusion Fall.

http://games.venturebeat.com/2010/02/17/online-firms-and-toy-companies-clash-over-kids-virtual-worlds/

I was making a counter argument that I felt that plug-in penetration was
holiding up the success of Fusion Fall and that I felt the unique visitor
numbers should be higher, considering the backing of the Cartoon Network,
the budget, large team size, established IP and the marketing muscle behind
it. According to Venture Beat, Fusion Fall is at less than 500,000 unique
monthly visitors.Were not on the chart because we are in the 13+ age group,
but for the record, between Sherwood and Club Marian, MaidMarian.com is at
around 1.7 million monthly visitors and considering it's made by some dude
in his basement without a marketing budget, so at this point although I
think Fusion Fall is an example of a Unity MMO, it might be illustrating how
bad plug-in penetration can kill your game.

Gene

[Gene Endrody]

I'm not with you on on the "Fusion Fall" argument. According to Venture Beat
and if I'm reading the chart right, Fusion Fall is at less than 500,000
unique monthly visitors.

(Source:
http://games.venturebeat.com/2010/02/17/online-firms-and-toy-companies-clash-over-kids-virtual-worlds/
)

Fusion Fall has the backing of the Cartoon Network, the budget, large team
size, established IP and the marketing muscle behind it. Honestly I'm not
sure I'm reading the chart right because I'm shocked by how low the number
is. Were not on the chart because we are in the 13+ age group, but for the

record, between Sherwood and Club Marian, MaidMarian.com is at around 1.7

million monthly visitors with some dude in his basement as the development
team and no marketing budget (and I'm a piss-ant relative to Habbo, another
Shockwave MMO.) I think plug-in penetration rates are very important and
this continues to be very relevant to me.

When did this become a Unity list?

Gene
MaidMarian.com

[peel peel]

ve has still its place on the web

2010/2/23 peel peel <peel....@gmail.com>

well...

i tried to play fusion fall, the framerate is awfully unstable... maybe i haven't enough ram to run it... i've only 512 Mo, it's enough for all shockwave games i've seen on the web, it's enough to run the doom3/quake4 engine, but unity seems too much "modern" for my machine..

i tried to play lego star wars but it crashed my video card... i suppose it's beacause it's a 5 years old ati card

let's say unity is for the powerful modern machines and shockwave is for the shitty old machines... i guess most of web users have shitty old machines, which could explain why shockwave is more used on portals like miniclip and co... i suppose in the future unity will replace shockwave in the web, but shockwa

2010/2/23 peel peel <peel....@gmail.com>

unity is a problem for all of us :(

2010/2/23 CC Chamberlin <c...@nmsu.edu>

[Daniel G. Blázquez]

Here is a Shockwave project recently beta - released (one week ago).

3d + physics + multiplayer (not real time) + social web +  minigolf

http://www.mundijuegos.com/multijugador/minigolf/

We accept criticism. It will be in English in some days. ;)

--
Dani

2010/2/23 CC Chamberlin <c...@nmsu.edu>

[peel peel]

well...

i tried to play fusion fall, the framerate is awfully unstable... maybe i haven't enough ram to run it... i've only 512 Mo, it's enough for all shockwave games i've seen on the web, it's enough to run the doom3/quake4 engine, but unity seems too much "modern" for my machine..

i tried to play lego star wars but it crashed my video card... i suppose it's beacause it's a 5 years old ati card

let's say unity is for the powerful modern machines and shockwave is for the shitty old machines... i guess most of web users have shitty old machines, which could explain why shockwave is more used on portals like miniclip and co... i suppose in the future unity will replace shockwave in the web, but shockwa

2010/2/23 peel peel <peel....@gmail.com>

unity is a problem for all of us :(

2010/2/23 CC Chamberlin <c...@nmsu.edu>

[peel peel]

unity is a problem for all of us :(

2010/2/23 CC Chamberlin <c...@nmsu.edu>

[Marty Poulin]

Hi Peel,

Yes a minimum specs play a big part in determining the right technology to employ and how we use it.  Having put together an MMO in Shockwave I can attest that keeping the memory in check was a major task for our developers. This would have been the same issue in Unity3D.

Unity3D is NOT our problem.  With competition we can expect better offerings from Adobe and competitive price points. 

The problem we all need to address is the raising of the bar.  With each new technology and new game the expectations of the consumer goes up a notch.  In order to stay competitive we need to constantly expand our knowledge, platforms and skill to become better  developers. 

As for min spec machines.. in the US your current machine is already well below what 90% of internet users have.  This is different in each country so targeting your product and min specs is critical. 

You may want to upgrade to a newer machine and keep your old box for testing.  We keep a variety of test boxes in house and at our testing partners.  We still strive to support 512MB with less sophisticated cards, but also give a deeper experience to more sophisticated users.

-Marty

[Marty Poulin]

Hi Gene,

I agree this is a Director list first and formost.  This does mean from time to time we examine the alternatives and what that meas to our decisions of which technology to employ on each project.

While Fusion Fall has received great critical acclaim it has also not been a steller success.  While some of that can be attributed to the friction of the Unity install, the reality is that the design was not sufficient to maintain interest and promote conversion.

To put this in perspective Fusion Fall had 4 million players enter the game in the first 2 weeks. I believe they simply failed to keep players engaged and the conversion rate was low enough that it did not pay to push more customers to the product.

This is not the fault of one technology or another, simply design.

Once again, the choice of technology alone is not the determining factor for success. There are significant tradeoffs for each path.  In some cases it may be worth it to trade a level of sophistication for reduced friction for acquisition.  We develop in Flash, Director and Unity3D and work through these tradeoffs for every project.

-Marty

[Chris Evans]

If we are going to change the topic, I thought we probably should change the thread title too. Feel free to post the active Shockwave projects you're working on or just completed.

 

Dani posted this in the Unity thread:

--------------------------

Here is a Shockwave project recently beta - released (one week ago).

3d + physics + multiplayer (not real time) + social web +  minigolf

http://www.mundijuegos.com/multijugador/minigolf/

We accept criticism. It will be in English in some days. ;)

-------------------

 

As for me, I'm still actively working on our social MMO, SocioTown:

http://www.sociotown.com

 

We've been in a sort of stealth Beta for the past couple of years and we've added a ton of features. You can ride mopeds, boats, go fishing, work jobs, missions, and etc. We need to create a new youtube video that has some of these new features. We also just converted SocioTown to SW 11.5, so we're in the process of squashing bugs related to the conversion. Feel free to create an account and tell me what you think and if you encounter any problems.

 

- Chris

[Chris Evans]

With that, the sound of silence...

 

Maybe I can get this topic going: Unity, Unity, Unity, Unity, Unity, Unity!!!

--

[UNDERdog]

Hey Chris,

good to see Sociotown is still up and running!
You must have quite a steady growing userbase by now... any insights
on that?

my last director 3D project was :
http://www.underdog.be/games/heli-hell/

in the meantime also using a lot of unity... although for clients I
still did a few Director things (eg. Multi-user Quiz game installation
for info-center in Nuclear power plant :)))

Am noticing that shockwave plugin games/demos still have a MUCH higher
reach than unity plugin games/demos on www.UNDERdog.be.

cheers all!

On 24 feb, 00:39, "Chris Evans" <i...@outsidetheboxsoftware.com>
wrote:

[Bart Libert (EducaSoft BVBA)]

It is indeed all because of plugin installbase.

A lot of people allready have shockwave, almost nobody has unity and
EVERYBODY has flash.

If only Adobe would put the rest of the functions (which director has
and flash hasn't) into flash like a decent 3Dsystem and such, then I
guess that this would be the killer combination.

Its so strange nowadays. If you talk about flash, then nobody even
seems to actually know that this is just the same type of plugin like
shockwave is (ugly installation) and unity (better install then
shockwave).

Also, why on earth does adobe want to bundle software with the
installation of their plugin and then even checking the checkbox in
advance for the users. That does not give any trust in plugins at all.
It makes them think of spyware to regular users...

2010/2/25 UNDERdog <w...@underdog.be>:

[Chris Evans]

SocioTown has been under the radar for a year and a half now. We haven't
really done any meaningful promotion or advertising yet. When we first
entered Beta in '08 there was a deluge of virtual worlds also being
released. There were early indicators that we simply weren't going to get
much traction considering all the multi-million dollar VC-backed virtual
worlds that were getting the majority of media and publisher attention.

So we decided to just bear down and spend the next couple of years steadily
improving the game so it would truly be a unique product and separate from
the pack. A lot of small devs have used this tactic to become very
successfully within 3-5 years. Also fortunately for us, we started from day
one with our revenue model of subscriptions and game credits. So even though
our monthly traffic is much smaller than other online games, we are able to
sustain development with just several hundred subscribers and game credit
purchases per month. We're also at almost 100,000 registered users, which is
not too shabby either.

Ironically, a lot of the VC-backed virtual worlds from a couple of years ago
have burned through all the cash and gone out of business because they
weren't able to establish a viable revenue model for their heavy overhead.

- Chris

Hey Chris,

cheers all!

--

[Chris Evans]

The biggest improvement over the past year or so has been the Shockwave
install. I've been doing the install a ton of times lately since I just
updated my game to SW 11.5. While it's still quirky at times, it's MUCH
improved over the old Shockwave install. It's pretty much on par with Flash
now. Flash btw now offers a toolbar as well when you install it, so it's not
just a Shockwave thing. For all the bad (or rather lack of) news, the
Shockwave install process has been a very positive step forward. Though I
think Unity will always have a smoother install simply because Shockwave has
to deal with a ton of Xtras and backward compatibility components.

- Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bart Libert (EducaSoft BVBA)" <educ...@gmail.com>
To: <dirgame...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: Shockwave Showcase

[peel peel]

most of web users have shitty machines, that could explain unity's poor penetration

2010/2/23 Marty Poulin <marty...@gmail.com>

[Nonoche]

Le 26 févr. 2010 à 20:41, peel peel a écrit :

> most of web users have shitty machines, that could explain unity's poor penetration

Doesn't explain Flash's then…

[peel peel]

??? i don't understand... flash has a better portability than all other plugins because there's nothing in the flash player

2010/2/26 Nonoche <non...@nonoche.com>

Le 26 févr. 2010 à 20:41, peel peel a écrit :

> most of web users have shitty machines, that could explain unity's poor penetration

Doesn't explain Flash's then…

[Nonoche]

Le 26 févr. 2010 à 20:44, peel peel a écrit :

> ??? i don't understand... flash has a better portability than all other plugins because there's nothing in the flash player

Tell that to Steve Jobs ;¬)

[peel peel]

i fuck steve jobs

2010/2/26 Nonoche <non...@nonoche.com>

Le 26 févr. 2010 à 20:44, peel peel a écrit :

> ??? i don't understand... flash has a better portability than all other plugins because there's nothing in the flash player

Tell that to Steve Jobs ;¬)

--

[peel peel]

the mini golf game is funny i like it

2010/2/25 Chris Evans <in...@outsidetheboxsoftware.com>

[Bart Libert (EducaSoft BVBA)]

Somebody asked to see something cool made with unity.

Lets see what a big company can do with it. EA just used it to create
Tiger Woods golf online

http://tigerwoodsonline.ea.com/

As far as I know you can test some stuff for free.

2010/2/26 peel peel <peel....@gmail.com>:

[Paul Schwarz]

I love the EA golf games. And I'm excited to see what Unity can really
do. The graphics look great. But, here's what happened on my MBP:

1) Choppy audio on the intro. Really choppy, not just occasional
little stutters.
2) Crash trying to zoom into a shot.
3) Crash again when I restart trying to click through the intro.

Not very impressive, EA. I mean, how many engineers worked on this
thing so it could crash on Unity's home turf (OS X) almost
immediately? And, weirdly, the ambient loop w/ the birds squawking is
still playing while I compose this email, even though I don't have any
Safari windows open.

This is what really worries me about Unity. I don't have any
confidence in its stability. I use DMX 2004, and deliver an app that
gets used by 30 thousand different crappy school computers each week,
with very minimal tech support needed. If Unity crashes on my high-end
computer almost immediately, I have no faith whatsoever that it can be
used for large-scale distribution to schools with a huge spectrum of
specs and configurations.

I want to like it, I really do. I want something to replace Director,
because I can't use D11 and I don't see Adobe doing much. But Unity
continues to disappoint me whenever I look at it. What am I missing?
How are other companies making this decision? Is it really just my 2
machines that crash consistently w/ Unity?

Paul

[peel peel]

hi paul

i'm trying to play with unity indie (it's free)... and i remark:

- if i select a good graphic quality i have bugs...( i've never seen any hardware effect crashing the gpu in shockwave 3d.. )
- i need 30Mo of ram to display a stupid cube (that's what i need to run a small game map with director)
- the visual noob interface is awful... you need to add a hidden object to put your engine's script entry class..
- tree painter is buggy, trees are flying in the air
- PITA physic and keyboard control (if you don't use the noob ready made behaviors)... it was so simple in director
- etc...

2010/2/27 Paul Schwarz <schwar...@gmail.com>

[Paul Schwarz]

OK, so I have to be fair here. I was able (for some reason, even
though I changed nothing) play a full game of golf. It was really
impressive, give or take a few minor hiccups. I still have a lot of
reservations about Unity, but it completely kicks Director's butt in
terms of visual quality, models (the trees are gorgeous), etc. The EA
people did a great job with it.

Peel, I've played with the IDE too. I didn't find it that bad, but I
only took it for a quick test drive. There's a big learning curve with
any new platform, so I'm not too intimidated by it. I am intimidated
by crashing and huge RAM and video requirements.

Paul

[peel peel]

yes
as you say, learning unity is not so easy than advertisements say
the api is really really more complex than shockwave 3d

learning a new 3d engine is long... i'm testing a bit unity every week-end...
if you want to make pro stuff you cannot work with the indie licence cause it discards the loading of external 3d files... (and so we cannot test the 3d garbage collector with indie version)

2010/2/27 Paul Schwarz <schwar...@gmail.com>

[Daniel G. Blázquez]

Hi Paul,

I have tested the golf game. I have not seen anything that cannot be done with Shockwave.

--
Dani

2010/2/27 Paul Schwarz <schwar...@gmail.com>

[Jorge Rodríguez]

Another one here, 2D but great.
http://maxandthemagicmarker.com/demo/

Jorge

[UNDERdog]

Hey Chris,

I just wanted to thank you for sharing that information with us.

Good to see the subscription model is working for you! Ever think of
embedding the game in Facebook?
This is easy and could be interesting for you too!

We just made our first Facebook multiplayer testgame (in unity with
peer2peer-host blabla...)
http://apps.facebook.com/farm-kill/

Regards,

Wim Wouters
www.UNDERdog.be

On 25 feb, 13:56, "Chris Evans" <i...@outsidetheboxsoftware.com>
wrote:

[John Baro]

What about (relatively painlessly) porting it to iPhone?  Unity can output a complete Xcode project ready to compile for iPhone.  And iPad support is coming.  And I believe you can compile for Wii too.

But I agree, if you just want to deliver in a browser, then it's a toss up, depending on what features you most need.

John Baro

On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:16 AM, dirgamedevl...@googlegroups.com wrote:

"Daniel G. Blázquez" <dbla...@exelweiss.com> Feb 28 10:05PM +0100 ^

[CC Chamberlin]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 9:42 AM, John Baro wrote:

> What about (relatively painlessly) porting it to iPhone? Unity can output a complete Xcode project ready to compile for iPhone. And iPad support is coming. And I believe you can compile for Wii too.

Yeah, being locked out of other devices is making my Director skill set increasingly useless. For instance, my last project was a dual web and iPhone project, and we're currently working on a project that needs to be delivered on web and iPad. And there are more iPhone/iPad projects in the queue. So far, we're doing parallel development using Flash and XCode/iPhone SDK, rather than going with Unity, but I'm not sure how long I can justify every project being two projects.

I'd *really* like to see a version of Director that could export to iPhone/iPad, even if it's only a stripped-down version consisting of the Shockwave3D portion without support for sprites, stage, cast, etc. All I need is a 3D world, a way to get stuff into it, some font, sound, and interaction support, and we'd be good to go.

That would, in one fell swoop, turn Director from a dying skill set for me to a cutting-edge skill set. Practically every project that walks through my door now comes with the "how hard would it be to make an iPhone/iPad version?" query.

CC

[Marty Poulin]

Hi CC,

I doubt you will see Shockwave on the iPhone any time soon.  To my knowledge it isn't a priority for the director team, and Steve Jobs and Adobe are not exactly in love with each other.

I know it is a pain, but learning both is not a completely horrible proposition.  You may want to upgrade your skills before you become obsolete ;-)

-Marty

[CC Chamberlin]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Marty Poulin wrote:

> I doubt you will see Shockwave on the iPhone any time soon. To my knowledge it isn't a priority for the director team, and Steve Jobs and Adobe are not exactly in love with each other.

Yeah, I doubt it too. But then, Adobe has announced a Flash-to-iPhone path, which is not what I would have expected, either, so I figured, what the hell, might as well float the idea.

> I know it is a pain, but learning both is not a completely horrible proposition. You may want to upgrade your skills before you become obsolete ;-)

Heh. Yeah, I'm not sitting on my laurels. We've already got some 2D iPhone/iPad apps out the door. Eventually, I'm going to be asked to do a 3D iPhone/iPad app, and that's probably when I'll have to dive into Unity (or find some other nice third-party 3D library for iPhone).

CC

[UNDERdog]

indeed, porting to i-Phone is really easy.

We work with Unity AND Director.
It's the only way to get everything done.

:P

On 1 mrt, 17:42, John Baro <jab...@mac.com> wrote:
> What about (relatively painlessly) porting it to iPhone?  Unity can  
> output a complete Xcode project ready to compile for iPhone.  And iPad  
> support is coming.  And I believe you can compile for Wii too.
>
> But I agree, if you just want to deliver in a browser, then it's a  
> toss up, depending on what features you most need.
>
> John Baro
>
> On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:16 AM, dirgamedevl...@googlegroups.com  
> wrote:
>
>
>

> > "Daniel G. Blázquez" <dblazq...@exelweiss.com> Feb 28 10:05PM +0100 ^