Fwd: Introducing the Yaesu " System Fusion" C4FM / FDMA Amateur Radio Digital Communication System

[WB9QZB]

FOR IMMEDIATE PUBLIC RELEASE

 

Yaesu’s  complete System Fusion C4FM / FDMA Amateur Radio Digital Communication System was introducing to North America ham radio operators yesterday late afternoon at the 32nd Annual ARRL and TAPR Digital Communications Conference in Seattle, Washington. 

Yaesu’s FT 1DR Handheld and FTM 400DR mobile digital and analog dual band transceivers, already available, were discussed as well as a new key system components, the new DR-1 Dual Mode Repeater.

 

This conference is an international forum for radio amateurs to meet, publish their work, and present new ideas and techniques.

Presenters and attendees have the opportunity to exchange ideas and learn about recent hardware and software advances, theories, experimental results, and practical applications.

Attendees frequently are Amateur Radio individuals experimenting at the very leading edge of the kinds of new technology that keeps Amateur Radio constantly moving forward. 

It was our intent to show our respect to these individuals by launching the new Yaesu System Fusion C4FM / FDMA Amateur Radio digital communication system during their proceedings.

 

Yaesu encourage all interest parties to download the attached Yaesu Product Bulletin as well as our new System Fusion Product Brochure to acquaint themselves with its full capabilities.

We are certain that many will applaud the fact that System Fusion is “FM Friendly” meaning both Analog and C4FM Digital users can share one repeater and communicate with each other. 

With this one hugely important feature, Yaesu has shown their deep appreciation for their customers who for years and years have purchased their VHF and UHF Conventional FM Analog products.

Yaesu’s System Fusion provides an opportunity for a smooth transition to Digital for hams choosing to make that change without having to lose contact with their friends who may not be making the change at the same. 

 

Yaesu will release additional purchasing and availability information to their North American Dealers in the next few weeks. 

We fully expect there to be a large number of System Fusion repeaters on-the air-widely serving the Amateur Radio community by year’s end!

 

Please join us as we celebrate this very important day in Amateur Radio history!

 

Thank you.

 

Best regards,

Dennis Motschenbacher K7BV

Executive Vice President Amateur Radio Sales

 

 

 

[Buddy Brannan]

Yippee!!!!!! Another !@#$%^&!@%#!!!!!ing proprietary digital thingy! Which is probably incompatible with all the other !@#$#@%#@@^&*%$^##@@!!!!ing proprietary digital thingies. How are these proprietary digital systems compatible with the open and experimental nature of amateur radio anyway, I’d like to know? Let’s see. Stick audio in one side of this black box thingo, get proprietary digital data out the other end that only other proprietary digital things can decode. In whose freaky universe is this a good thing? Oh wait. This one.

Wow.

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "digitalvoice" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to digitalvoice...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to digita...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/digitalvoice.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[Tony Langdon]

On 22/09/13 4:48 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Yippee!!!!!! Another !@#$%^&!@%#!!!!!ing proprietary digital thingy! Which is probably incompatible with all the other !@#$#@%#@@^&*%$^##@@!!!!ing proprietary digital thingies. How are these proprietary digital systems compatible with the open and experimental nature of amateur radio anyway, I�d like to know? Let�s see. Stick audio in one side of this black box thingo, get proprietary digital data out the other end that only other proprietary digital things can decode. In whose freaky universe is this a good thing? Oh wait. This one.
It would be nice to to least have a network behind it that can support
multiple on air protocols. With all of this proprietary nonsense
looking like the amateur radio version of the Internet's walled gardens,
perhaps it is time for the amateur community to take the bull by the
horns, now that we have Codec2. and from there, put a decent networking
protocol behind it. Make it able to play as nicely as possible with the
other offerings as possible.

I don't know what they've done with WIRES-X over WIRES-II, but the
networking side of the latter is ugly and doesn't play nicely on sites
with a lot of port forwarding (a protocol that requires 10,000 UDP and
TCP ports forwarded - UGLY!).

I ran WIRES-II for a few years, until the machine it was installed on
failed (blown PSU). I never restored it, because the change in power
consumption was quite dramatic, and I never got hold of a suitable low
powered Windows box to run it on. It worked quite well, though the lack
of ability to interface external hardware/software into the system
(unlike IRLP and Echolink, which both have extensive hooks and/or APIs
for sysop modifications) was very frustrating. I had to do a lot of
assuming of the system state, which worked for the most part, combined
with some hardware based cross system lockouts (using one of the IRLP
AUX outputs).

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2013 22 Sep 01:49 -0500, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> In whose freaky universe is this a good thing?

In the board rooms of proprietary vendors who can corner the huge
amateur radio market and laugh all the way to the bank due to the
stupidity of radio amateurs who will get government grant money to fund
all of this. It's a beautiful taxpayer money laundering scheme!

> Oh wait. This one.

Indeed. How many incompatible proprietary protocols are running loose
on the amateur VHF/UHF spectrum now? I've lost count. This is pure
madness.

> Wow.

Wow, indeed. Yaesu could've stepped up to the plate and embraced Codec2
and an all open amateur based protocol and pushed in a better direction,
but chose this instead. Of course, it just wouldn't do to have
competitors sell compatible equipment now would it? Of course not!
Better to build yet another (surely patent encumbered) proprietary silo.
</sarc>

Meh. I'm sticking with FM.

73, de Nate >>

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us

[Jerry Chamberlin]

We talked around the world on cw.
Bounced off moon and sats.
Can any of these modes do better?

[James Hall]

The irony of this is if they actually embraced open standards they would be more successful. It's easier to convince someone to use something if they actually have someone to talk to. This is true, in a way, in many other industries. But it's not as much about success as it is about control.

That's why I think things like the UDR56K-4 will take over eventually. While Yeasu, Icom, etc are segmenting the market with incompatible modes, someone else will come along that can operate multiple modes and be flexible enough to use new modes that might have different benefits on demand. The UDR56K-4 could use a dvdongle to do D-Star, but also use a software modem and codec to do codec2 on the same radio. It's a software defined radio with it's own built in Linux SBC.

[Bruce Perens]

In a moment of intense irony, I won the Yaesu DV HT at the TAPR banquet.

So, I get to examine it in depth and write a review.

Obviously, the digital voice implementation is a stinker. But it's a
good FM and APRS HT with a built-in GPS, and it's the smallest one
available.

It has a serial port, and comes with their own odd serial to USB
converter which uses a connector that looks a lot like mini-USB but is not.

Thanks

Bruce

[Steve]

I can see the mindset of a voice only system, covering both analog and AMBE voice.  There are a lot of hams who have no need/vision for data networks. APRS beacons are useful to that mindset. I just don't think data+voice is really a huge demand or well interfaced together. Two different communities, two different interests.  If two users decide to transfer files over the repeater, you can bet the voice users will not be happy, and vice-versa.

[Kristoff Bonne]

Hi Bruce,

On 22-09-13 17:53, Bruce Perens wrote:
> In a moment of intense irony, I won the Yaesu DV HT at the TAPR banquet.
> So, I get to examine it in depth and write a review.
> Obviously, the digital voice implementation is a stinker. But it's a
> good FM and APRS HT with a built-in GPS, and it's the smallest one
> available.

Funny, they have you *one* radio. Congratulation you can now call CQ in
Yaesu "fushion DV" with nobody else able to come back to you. :-)





> Bruce
73
kristoff - ON1ARF

[Kristoff Bonne]

Steve,

Well, when I co-managed the D-STAR repeaters overhere, my impression is
that 99 % of the traffic on the repeater where just voice-calls on one
of the conference systems.

One option would be to the "interconnection" of all these digital
systems at that point. AllStar is a good starting point for that.

How I see it would be something like this:
- let's take a conference called "VIC" ("Very Interesting Conference").

- create multiple "rooms" for this conference:
VIC-PCM for voip users (and some echolink repeaters)
VIC-GSM for echolink repeaters
VIC-AMBE for D-STAR repeaters
VIC-AMBE+ for DMR, P25, ... repeaters
VIC-C2 for FreeDV and c2gmsk users

Create a bridge from VIC-PCM to all the other rooms to provide the
interconnection between everybody. Using a single hub-and-spoke approach
also reduces the chance of loops.


- From the conference-servers, you then connect to the repeaters, either
using the "DV" protocol if it exists (echolink, D-STAR, voip SIP, ...)
or with a raw "codec" stream (PCM, GSM, AMBE, ...). In the latter case,
it's up to the repeater to create the DV stream to be put on DV.


As said, AllStar does already provide part of this service (but -as far
as I know it- it is based on one single "room" and does transcoding).
The idea of multiple rooms is to avoid transcoding as much as possible.


As it looks now, we are going into a future of multiple DV systems all
living next to eachother. Instead of complain about that, we are
probably better of with just acknowledge this fact and look for means to
interconnect these systems, but avoid transcoding as much as possible.


73
kristoff - ON1ARF

[Matthew Pitts]

Kristoff,

Or you could call it the Amateur Radio Experimenter's Corner, which I'm sure you're aware of. A lot of what we do there is based around bridging between the various formats out there, with a current focus on D-Star, Echolink and IRLP Experimental Reflectors; there is one MotoTRBO system that is linked up on occasion as well, but it is currently done through an analog connection via AllStar Link rather than a AMBE2 data stream as we do with D-Star. I'm looking for NXDN users to join the system, and am planning to support SystemFusion if possible.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

---

From: Kristoff Bonne <kris...@skypro.be>
To: digita...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [digitalvoice] Re: Introducing the Yaesu " System Fusion" C4FM / FDMA Amateur Radio Digital Communication System

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "digitalvoice" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to digitalvoice+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Ronny Julian]

But you did confirm with them that you cannot do point to point data connections or file transfers correct?  That is what I understood.  Glad you will have a chance to check this out "for free".  I wanted to tell that guy one thing after the end of Gary's video.  "Well, you just inspired me to buy some D-Star gear!"

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "digitalvoice" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to digitalvoice+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[jdow]

There are digital modes that are significantly better.

{^_^}

[Bruce Perens]

Well, it's pretty strange. There is obviously a 1200 and 9600 TNC in it, it can do APRS at those rates. It also has a digital data mode that it can use with a yet-to-be-released camera mic, and there is a micro-SD card to which it can maybe save images. But the only documented function of the serial port is to send out data from the internal GPS, and to update the firmware.

--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Buddy Brannan]

I, for one, have no use for DStar, and I probably have even less use for this Yaesu thing. Codec2 all the way :) Analog unitl then.

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY

On Sep 22, 2013, at 9:09 PM, Bruce Perens <br...@perens.com> wrote:

> Well, it's pretty strange. There is obviously a 1200 and 9600 TNC in it, it can do APRS at those rates. It also has a digital data mode that it can use with a yet-to-be-released camera mic, and there is a micro-SD card to which it can maybe save images. But the only documented function of the serial port is to send out data from the internal GPS, and to update the firmware.
>
> Ronny Julian <k4rjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But you did confirm with them that you cannot do point to point data connections or file transfers correct? That is what I understood. Glad you will have a chance to check this out "for free". I wanted to tell that guy one thing after the end of Gary's video. "Well, you just inspired me to buy some D-Star gear!"
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Bruce Perens <br...@perens.com> wrote:
> In a moment of intense irony, I won the Yaesu DV HT at the TAPR banquet.
>
> So, I get to examine it in depth and write a review.
>
> Obviously, the digital voice implementation is a stinker. But it's a good FM and APRS HT with a built-in GPS, and it's the smallest one available.
>
> It has a serial port, and comes with their own odd serial to USB converter which uses a connector that looks a lot like mini-USB but is not.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "digitalvoice" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to digitalvoice...@googlegroups.com.

> To post to this group, send email to digita...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/digitalvoice.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "digitalvoice" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to digitalvoice...@googlegroups.com.

[Tony Langdon]

On 22/09/13 10:55 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> Meh. I'm sticking with FM.

Nah, too limiting. I'm more interested in getting behind any efforts to
create an open amateur voice/data networking spec. We can use Codec2
for voice coding, for starters. Take the good parts of what we have,
and make it better. Take the deficiencies of existing systems like
D-STAR and avoid those pitfalls in our design. With Codec2 and FreeDV
already in existence, we can also link quite effectively to HF as well
as VHF/UHF.

And where possible, make it possible to interoperate with other systems
- be the "glue" that can bind the disparate networks together, like IP
did for data networks in the 1980s.

The hard part will be convincing a manufacturer to build compatible
mobile and portable radios, but if we can get it going, maybe we can
convince them there's money to be made (which is what manufacturers need
to know). In the meantime, gateways to FM and D-STAR might suffice to
help gain traction.

[Tony Langdon]

I thought of a similar approach a few years ago, when discussing
transcoders with Skip in the context of tbd, rather than AllStar.
However, the architecture needs to be a bit cleverer. From an audio
PoV, your model is what's needed - a "mini conference" for each form of
speech coding. So far, I can identify at least:

PCM (common interlinks and directly connected RF hardware if the
conference is co-sited with an analogue repeater).
uLaw (IRLP and AllStar)
g.726 (AllStar)
ADPCM (IRLP - dominant codec)
GSM (IRLP, Echolink, eQSO)
AMBE (D-STAR)
AMBE+ (DMR, etc)
IMBE (P25 Phase 1)
Codec2 (FreeDV, etc)

However, all of these mini conferences need to appear as a single
conference from a management point of view, as well as for transferring
any text data between them Most of the digital (at the end user)
systems can handle some degree of data transfer. Echolink has a text
messaging facility, which could be carried by the data channels of the
digital networks. Text messaging would have to be out of band for IRLP
and AllStar. Also, when a system causes a problem, you need to be able
to boot that system from a common user interface, similarly for banning,
muting, etc.

[jdow]

Is it, perhaps, built around the 9600 bps APRS modulation scheme?

{^_^} Joanne/W6MKU

> an email to digitalvoice+unsubscribe@__googlegroups.com
> <mailto:digitalvoice%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> To post to this group, send email to digita...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:digita...@googlegroups.com>.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/__group/digitalvoice
> <http://groups.google.com/group/digitalvoice>.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/__groups/opt_out
> <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>.

>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "digitalvoice" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email

> to digitalvoice...@googlegroups.com.

[Nate Bargmann]

Don't get me wrong, I fully support this effort. However, I will not be
buying any proprietary digital radios to use on the amateur radio
spectrum and will stick to FM for the very few QSOs I make on 2m and up
any more until our dream system is available.

[Bruce Perens]

Me too, Nate.

I have been doing well with consulting lately, and was looking at a new HF rig. But the HPSDR Hermes boards had gone past before I had the cash, and the various alternatives, no matter how attractive, were mildly or severely proprietary. Then the TAPR board meeting went over their $100K of inventory on hand, and in the doing announced that they had 13 Hermes boards still in stock. They had one less, along with a Pennywhistle, the RX and TX filters, an enclosure, and a breakout board, before the meeting was over.

Unfortunately, not everyone can solve their problem the same way. All but the amplifier are assembled and tested but there is still some integration and enclosure building in getting this radio on the air. And after the other dozen are sold, TAPR doesn't have the right to manufacture more Hermes, due to the PCB design being under the non-commercial license. Before this went down, the TAPR executive board had moved to stop funding projects with the NCL rather than the OHL, so this will not happen again. But I think it is at least a year before TAPR is in a position to release a complete HF transceiver design for others to manufacture.

Similarly, for VHF/UHF I have been investing in Whitebox development rather than paying for someone's proprietary digital voice radio.

Thanks

Bruce

Nate Bargmann <n0...@n0nb.us> wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I fully support this effort.  However, I will not be
buying any proprietary digital radios to use on the amateur radio
spectrum and will stick to FM for the very few QSOs I make on 2m and up
any more until our dream system is available.

73, de Nate >>

--

[Bruce Perens]

The digital voice system uses a different modulation from 9600 packet.

jdow <jd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Is it, perhaps, built around the 9600 bps APRS modulation scheme?

[Marciniak, Ed]

‎I hate to point out the obvious, but we really need the link layer (modem), framing of data (format and FEC), protocol, user data (choice of codec) and everything in between to be common in order to interoperate.

A DVSI codec that does IBME, AMBE(and it's variants) costs something like 20 USD in small quantities last time I checked. What it does for a manufacturer is avoid the need for a DSP implementation along with double or triple voltage power supplies if the module didn't already need a DSP for the modem‎. The logic that needs to happen in between can fit into a microcontroller. Their choice is highly practical one even if it is not what some want or need.

IMHO, the biggest improvements of their proprietary boards would be better resistance to interference by noise, better FEC and tolerance to frequency error or drift to make something that looks good on paper work good in the real (RF) world through a better modem.

‎Given that maintaining compatibility with proprietary digital voice solutions goes counter to those goals, the best one could hope for might be to hope there is enough information available to transcode or link systems together, along with documentation of electrical interfaces if a manufacturer happens to make a suitable donor radio you'd like to run something a little more open on.

[siegfried jackstien]

And maybe a bit of echolink :-)

Dg9bfc

Sigi



> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: digita...@googlegroups.com [mailto:digita...@googlegroups.com]
> Im Auftrag von Buddy Brannan
> Gesendet: Montag, 23. September 2013 01:23
> An: digita...@googlegroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [digitalvoice] Introducing the Yaesu " System Fusion" C4FM /
> FDMA Amateur Radio Digital Communication System