60m FreeDV frequency and interference

[Brian Morrison]

It's been pointed out to me that 5.3665MHz on 60m is the datamodes
frequency that has been in use since the 60m amateur experiment
started. Today I heard a FreeDV signal pop up on the frequency of an
Olivia QSO between 2 stations in the UK and Poland and obliterate it,
and have just had an email discussion with the Olivia station at the UK
end.

It seems to me that FreeDV should perhaps look at finding another
frequency on 60m to avoid this sort of QRM but in particular that any
digital voice stations should listen for other modes in use on the
listed spot frequencies before transmitting, in this case the Olivia
station was stronger than the FreeDV station here to the extent that
neither were decodable when the other was present.

Comments welcome.

--

Brian Morrison G8SEZ

[Matt Jones]

It is entirely possible that the transmitting station heard nothing, then transmitted. You may have heard everyone, but it doesn't mean the transmitter did. I'm simply pointing out that HF isn't a wire we all tap into so that we can use human csma with 100% effectiveness.

Matt

AL0R

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[Brian Morrison]

On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:54:42 -0600
Matt Jones <ma...@flyfast.net> wrote:

> It is entirely possible that the transmitting station heard nothing,
> then transmitted. You may have heard everyone, but it doesn't mean the
> transmitter did. I'm simply pointing out that HF isn't a wire we all
> tap into so that we can use human csma with 100% effectiveness.

I know, and I didn't say that everyone could hear everyone else. In this
case though a difference of 2 S-points is small enough that possibly
the FreeDV user could have heard the Olivia transmission from the UK,
but possibly not the one from Poland. The UK Olivia operator used the
expression "obliterated" to describe the effect on his QSO. I saw the
Olivia on my spectrum scope and switched to analogue mode to identify
it, I have seen quite a few Olivia transmissions on this frequency in
the last few weeks at least.

I wrote my email to raise awareness, sometimes the mode in use can be a
bit of a silo outside which we never look. 60m is also different
depending where you are, maybe the FreeDV frequency couldn't be placed
elsewhere for that reason.

Further comments very welcome.

--

Brian Morrison G8SEZ

[Keith Prosser]

why should the freedv move why dont the oilivia op go up in frequency, as you say that part of the band as been used from the start.

[glenn...@gmail.com]

Just an outside opinion.  60M has channels in the US that apparently have been taken over by digital modes and voice is about useless on those.  I have no issue with digital modes, Voice, CW, or other.  However, too many operators are not LISTENING prior to sending anything.  This includes CW use on those channels, sending right over top of conversations.  If these were Govt Stations we would be quick to lose the privilege of the use of that amazing band.  Nobody should have to do anything, if the channel is in use already, you move.  Oh.. and while operating, ALSO LISTEN, you may be interfering with other stations that have either priority or conditions changed and now have propagation to your area.  Nobody in Amateur Radio has any priority on any frequency.  Lets not lose the 60M band.

 Glenn WT3R

[Mooneer Salem]

Hi all,

As others have mentioned, definitely practice all the things we're supposed to be doing for non-FreeDV stuff when using FreeDV (ID when you're supposed to, not intentionally interfering with others already on frequency, etc.) I imagine as there's more use of FreeDV, there'll eventually be a consensus on where on 60 meters it should be used. 

BTW FreeDV isn't allowed on 60 meters in the US (§97.307(f)(14)(i) limits "phone" on that band to emissions designator J3E, aka analog SSB voice). YMMV for other countries, of course.

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/digitalvoice/c2dfb21d-933c-43dd-8f24-64e2fd6565b5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Tom Kamp DF5JL]

Hi all

USB is the regular sideband on 60m.

FreeDV on 5366.5 kHz USB is outside the band according to WRC-15
(5351.5-5366.5 kHz). So it would be a minority, if any, that would be
allowed to transmit there.



73 Tom DF5JL
HF Manager IARU Region 1

[Richard Lamont]

The OP relates to the UK-specific licensed segment between 5362 and 5374.5 kHz.

Below 5366.5 is the WRC-15 band, so the IARU bandplan applies.

5371.5 - 5374.5 is one of the traditional 'channels' still allocated in several countries and still widely used for SSB/CW.

In the UK we're lucky to have 5 kHz extra to play with between 5366.5 and 5371.5. This has traditionally been used for data modes with a 'dial' frequency of 5366.5 but is not reserved as such in the UK 5 MHz bandplan.

However, given that most data modes and freedv require less than 3 kHz bandwidth, we could split this 5 kHz chunk into two 2.5 kHz chunks with USB dial frequencies of 5366.5 and 5369.0 kHz. These could be used for any digital mode with audio between 0-2500 Hz on a first-come first-served basis.

I heard someone (in the UK) on 5366.5 kHz FreeDV 700E on Sunday mention that he'd had a FreeDV QSO with a station in France on 5366.5 kHz LSB. While within the licence for both stations, it's contrary to the IARU bandplan which reserves 5366.0 - 5366.5 kHz for narrow modes with <20 Hz bandwidth (and which is widely used for WSPR centred on 5366.2). Such QSOs could better use 5354 or 5363 kHz USB.

73,

Richard G4DYA

[Richard Lamont]

Hmmm - maybe 5369.0 is not such a good idea - when switching to SSB voice it will overlap 5371.5. Maybe 5368.5 kHz dial for FreeDV would be better, leaving hopefully enough room for Olivia etc below it.

73,

Richard G4DYA

[Matt Jones]

Ehhhhh... according to this... data is allowed in the US on 60m

https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/spectrum/table/fcctable.pdf page 134.

  US23 In the band 5330.5-5406.4 kHz (60 m band), the assigned frequencies 5332, 5348, 5358.5, 5373, and 5405 kHz are allocated to the amateur service on a secondary basis. Amateur service use of the 60 m band frequencies is restricted to a maximum effective radiated power of 100 W PEP and to the following emission types and designators: phone (2K80J3E), data (2K80J2D), RTTY (60H0J2B), and CW (150HA1A). Amateur operators using the data and RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmissions so as to avoid causing harmful interference to Federal stations.  

Matt

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[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Matt,

IANAL but traditionally FreeDV and other digital voice modes have been considered "phone" in the US and not "data", hence my interpretation re: 60 meters. (Really, Part 97 should regulate the bands a lot differently than it does now, but that's probably a discussion best suited for elsewhere.) 

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Seannon Baker]

Moneer, in relation to Matt's question, in relation to just calling it "data" what would the symbol rate be? Would it be higher than the 300 set by the FCC currently?  Also, I think the type of data is also specified for the 5 channels as well... On top of the only one station transmitting at a time, and only on the designated indicated frequencies, i.e. not just anywhere within the audio passband  like is commonly done with FT8... 

(3) Only a RTTY or data emission using a specified digital code listed in §97.309(a) of this part may be transmitted. The symbol rate must not exceed 300 bauds, or for frequency-shift keying, the frequency shift between mark and space must not exceed 1 kHz.

Seannon, AG0NY 

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[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Seannon,

The 300 baud limit has been interpreted as applying on a per-carrier basis (e.g. paragraph 2 of https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-20-963A1.pdf). Since the various FreeDV modes use multiple carriers, this means that FreeDV wouldn't run afoul of that particular restriction. The symbol rate for each mode is listed on a spreadsheet in the codec GitHub repository (https://github.com/drowe67/codec2/blob/master/doc/modem_codec_frame_design.ods).

This all said, "data" has a specific definition in Part 97 (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-97#p-97.3(c)(2)) and FreeDV would be unlikely to qualify as such by that definition.

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[glenn...@gmail.com]

Too many people do not understand what data is or simply digital.  Just because voice is digitized does not make it DATA.  Voice is voice, except for the labeling of the type of modulation it is.

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[Rick, WA6III]

Actually it might in the strictest sense of the definition

Just because some of the "Data" happens to be a digitized voice waveform, it's all still "Data"

I know that some think the FCC (or other Self proclaimed Lawyers) may claim that digital voice is actually "voice"

But has the FCC actually put this in writing?

Now to be fair, The FCC did actually mandate the "voice" mode to be used on 60m as 2.8khz USB voice and they did it for a specific reason. (to be standardized with the other NON-amateur users for emergency/contingency use)

Doesn't FreeDV , Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexed (OFDM), transmission actually include other data in addition to digitized voice making the actual designator 1K20J2W

1K20J2W--Bandwidth: 1.20 kHz

Modulation Type: [J] AM, single sideband, suppressed carrier

Modulation Nature: [2] Digital, with modulation

Information Type: [W] Multiple Formats of Data Transmitted

And I know this is not related to 60m per se', but the above emission designator should be acceptable in the non-phone bands in all the amateur bands (except maybe 60m because FCC already spelled out the allowed modes)

And just because someone at ARRL gave an opinion that digital voice is "voice" doesn't necessarily make it so.

Can someone point me to FCC written info that specifically indicates 1K20J2W as only able to be used in voice bands?

And what exactly is the emission designator for 700D if it isn't 1K20J2W

[Mooneer Salem]

The additional data in FreeDV is simply the user's callsign (if PSK Reporter reporting functionality's enabled) or a very low bit rate free-form text field otherwise. One could argue that these are "incidental" tones for alerting and thus still considered phone per § 97.3(c)(3)(5).

Also, § 97.3(c)(2) still requires the final character of the emissions designator to be 'D' in order to be considered "data" (except for the exceptions that end in "C"), which is why FreeDV still wouldn't count as such in the US. FWIW, the ARRL has considered digital voice to be J2E in the past ("Practical HF Digital Voice" in the May/June 2000 QEX).

-Mooneer K6AQ

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/digitalvoice/aba61f9d-3a46-4941-a34f-82039af80bdan%40googlegroups.com.

[Rick, WA6III]

Mooneer,

I am familiar with the ARRL's statement in QEX, and I guess they're entitled to their opinion.

It's my opinion that if there's any digital "data" that is an additional component of a digital voice mode, the last letter should be "W" or possibly even "X"

Modulation Types

The 5th character in a modern emissions designator is the modulation type. This will be the first character of a 3 character legacy emissions designator. Modulation types include amplitude modulation, angle-mdulated, pulse modulation, and combinations thereof. Modulation types not included in those categories are marked with X as the 5th category.Nature of modulating signal The 6th character of the emission designator (2nd character in legacy designators) signifies what type of data is being transmitted. Identified data transmission types are below:

• N - None
• A - Aural telegraphy, for people (Morse code)
• B - Telegraphy for machine copy (RTTY, fast Morse)
• C - Analog fax
• D - Data, telemetry, telecommand
• E - Telephony, voice, sound broadcasting
• F - Video, television
• W - Combinations of the above
• X - All cases not covered above

I completely understand your reference to "incidental tones for alerting" but I really think that was intended to be tones that might be transmitted in addition to (or preceding) analog amplitude or frequency modulated voice.

FreeDV is wholly,  a digital signal of small bandwidth and thus would be better designated with a "W"  ("W - Combinations of the above"  

It seems that the FCC  and ARRL are sort of living in the past when it comes to band plans and modes. 

In the not so recent past,  it's been discussed that our band plans should be revisited with bandwidth of signals (as opposed to actual mode)  being the primary driver.  I don't know where that has gone (or if it even went anywhere!)

I really believe there should be no limits on bandwidth (and there doesn't seem to be except for 60m [2.80khz USB])

With current band occupancy there's room for all modes (including AM and FM on lower HF bands) as long as the current specifications are upheld (Mod-index=1or less etc) 

 The ARRL has a LOT of  influence in this area but seem to be pretty much stuck in the past.

Additionally,

To the OP, please accept my humble apologies for taking this thread off the original (60M)  subject. 

I think I am inclined to agree with Mooneer, FCC specified the only "voice" mode to be used on 60m is "2K80J2E" and further restricted it to USB so as to be compatible with the other Non-amatuer users of 60m.  None of the rest of the amateur bands have this restriction.

While I think the ARRL should recommend the use of USB for standardization (with the rest of the non-amateur HF SSB world)  on ALL amateur bands for all net and contest operations, I hope the FCC never does.

After all, aren't nets and contests really "practice" for the "big-one"?  and if there was a "big-one" wouldn't "we" have other NON-amateur users operating on our frequencies using radios that do not by design have LSB capability?   While there may have been a valid reason to use LSB on 160/80/40 in the distant past, that train left the station long ago and is now sitting in a scrapyard waiting to be smelted!

But again I digress! (I do that a lot!!)

Cheers and 73,

Rick WA6III

[Tony Langdon]

Actually, I'd also like to pick up on another point. To me, the use of
"J" in an emission designator makes sense only when the source driving
the SSB modulation stage is a raw signal source, not modulated in any form.

FreeDV is actually modulated onto a low frequency carrier in the audio
range. The SSB transmitter is nothing more than a fancy image rejecting
mixer, converting the signal up to its final transmission frequency.

I think of soundcard generated digital modes as having a very low first
IF in the transmit chain (and last IF in the Rx chain).

So, I'd drop the J2 and replace it with something else that better fits
the nature of FreeDV.

Back to the original topic, I can't comment on the specifics, but it
does seem to me that sticking to J3E (analog SSB) would be more
neighbourly of us when sharing with SSB users from other services.

On 15/12/22 5:22 pm, Rick, WA6III wrote:
>
> Actually it might in the strictest sense of the definition
>
> Just because some of the "Data" happens to be a digitized voice
> waveform, it's all still "Data"
>
> I know that some think the FCC (or other Self proclaimed Lawyers) may
> claim that digital voice is actually "voice"
>
> But has the FCC actually put this in writing?
>
> Now to be fair, The FCC did actually mandate the "voice" mode to be used
> on 60m as 2.8khz USB voice and they did it for a specific reason. (to be
> standardized with the other NON-amateur users for emergency/contingency
> use)
>
> Doesn't FreeDV , Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexed (OFDM),
> transmission actually include other data in addition to digitized voice
> making the actual designator 1K20J2W
>
> 1K20J2W--Bandwidth: 1.20 kHz

> Modulation Type: [J] *AM, single sideband, suppressed carrier*
> Modulation Nature: [2] *Digital, with modulation*
> Information Type: [W] *Multiple Formats of Data Transmitted*

>
>
> And I know this is not related to 60m per se', but the above emission
> designator should be acceptable in the non-phone bands in all the
> amateur bands (except maybe 60m because FCC already spelled out the
> allowed modes)
>
> And just because someone at ARRL gave an opinion that digital voice is
> "voice" doesn't necessarily make it so.
>
> Can someone point me to FCC written info that specifically indicates
> 1K20J2W as only able to be used in voice bands?
>
> And what exactly is the emission designator for 700D if it isn't 1K20J2W
> On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-8 glenn...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Too many people do not understand what data is or simply digital. 
> Just because voice is digitized does not make it DATA.  Voice is

> voice, except for the labeling of the type of modulation it is.____
>
> __ __
>
> *From:* digita...@googlegroups.com <digita...@googlegroups.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Mooneer Salem
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 6, 2022 17:39
> *To:* digita...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [digitalvoice] 60m FreeDV frequency and interference____
>
> __ __
>
> Hi Seannon,____
>
> __ __

>
> The 300 baud limit has been interpreted as applying on a per-carrier
> basis (e.g. paragraph 2 of
> https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-20-963A1.pdf). Since the
> various FreeDV modes use multiple carriers, this means that FreeDV
> wouldn't run afoul of that particular restriction. The symbol rate
> for each mode is listed on a spreadsheet in the codec GitHub
> repository

> (https://github.com/drowe67/codec2/blob/master/doc/modem_codec_frame_design.ods).____
>
> __ __

>
> This all said, "data" has a specific definition in Part 97
> (https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-97#p-97.3(c)(2))

> and FreeDV would be unlikely to qualify as such by that definition.____
>
> __ __
>
> Thanks,____
>
> __ __
>
> -Mooneer K6AQ____
>
> __ __

>
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 4:28 AM Seannon Baker <theha...@gmail.com>

> wrote:____

>
> Moneer, in relation to Matt's question, in relation to just
> calling it "data" what would the symbol rate be? Would it be
> higher than the 300 set by the FCC currently?  Also, I think the
> type of data is also specified for the 5 channels as well... On
> top of the only one station transmitting at a time, and only on
> the designated indicated frequencies, i.e. not just anywhere

> within the audio passband  like is commonly done with FT8... ____
>
> __ __

>
> (3) Only a RTTY or data emission using a specified digital code
> listed in §97.309(a) of this part may be transmitted. The symbol
> rate must not exceed 300 bauds, or for frequency-shift keying,
> the frequency shift between mark and space must not exceed 1

> kHz.____
>
> __ __
>
> Seannon, AG0NY ____
>
> __ __

>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 23:21 Mooneer Salem <moo...@gmail.com>

> wrote:____
>
> Hi Matt,____
>
> __ __

>
> IANAL but traditionally FreeDV and other digital voice modes
> have been considered "phone" in the US and not "data", hence
> my interpretation re: 60 meters. (Really, Part 97 should
> regulate the bands a lot differently than it does now, but

> that's probably a discussion best suited for elsewhere.) ____
>
> __ __
>
> Thanks,____
>
> __ __
>
> -Mooneer K6AQ____
>
> __ __

>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 9:14 PM Matt Jones

> <ma...@flyfast.net> wrote:____

>
> Ehhhhh... according to this... data is allowed in the US

> on 60m____
>
> __ __
>
> https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/spectrum/table/fcctable.pdf
> page 134.____
>
> __ __

>
>   US23 In the band 5330.5-5406.4 kHz (60 m band), the
> assigned frequencies 5332, 5348, 5358.5, 5373, and 5405
> kHz are allocated to the amateur service on a secondary
> basis. Amateur service use of the 60 m band frequencies
> is restricted to a maximum effective radiated power of
> 100 W PEP and to the following emission types and
> designators: phone (2K80J3E), data (2K80J2D), RTTY
> (60H0J2B), and CW (150HA1A). Amateur operators using the
> data and RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the
> length of transmissions so as to avoid causing harmful

> interference to Federal stations.  ____
>
> __ __
>
> Matt____
>
> __ __

>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 3:13 PM Mooneer Salem

> <moo...@gmail.com> wrote:____
>
> Hi all,____
>
> __ __

>
> As others have mentioned, definitely practice all
> the things we're supposed to be doing for non-FreeDV
> stuff when using FreeDV (ID when you're supposed to,
> not intentionally interfering with others already on
> frequency, etc.) I imagine as there's more use of
> FreeDV, there'll eventually be a consensus on where

> on 60 meters it should be used. ____
>
> __ __

>
> BTW FreeDV isn't allowed on 60 meters in the US
> (§97.307(f)(14)(i) limits "phone" on that band to
> emissions designator J3E, aka analog SSB voice).

> YMMV for other countries, of course.____
>
> __ __
>
> Thanks,____
>
> __ __
>
> -Mooneer K6AQ____
>
> __ __

>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:49 PM glenn...@gmail.com

> <glenn...@gmail.com> wrote:____

>
> Just an outside opinion.  60M has channels in
> the US that apparently have been taken over by
> digital modes and voice is about useless on
> those.  I have no issue with digital modes,
> Voice, CW, or other.  However, too many
> operators are not LISTENING prior to sending
> anything.  This includes CW use on those
> channels, sending right over top of
> conversations.  If these were Govt Stations we
> would be quick to lose the privilege of the use
> of that amazing band.  Nobody should have to do
> anything, if the channel is in use already, you
> move.  Oh.. and while operating, ALSO LISTEN,
> you may be interfering with other stations that
> have either priority or conditions changed and
> now have propagation to your area.  Nobody in
> Amateur Radio has any priority on any

> frequency.  Lets not lose the 60M band.____
>
>  Glenn WT3R____

>
> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 2:41:25 PM UTC-5

> gw8...@gmail.com wrote:____

>
> why should the freedv move why dont the
> oilivia op go up in frequency, as you say
> that part of the band as been used from the

> start.____

>
> On 05/12/2022 18:47:17, Brian Morrison

> <b...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote:____

> Brian Morrison G8SEZ ____

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73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com