Emission Designator(s) for FreeDV

[rick]

Hi to all,

  I would like to know about Emission designator(s) for FreeDV to geta  permission  transmit at  HF and VHF in Japan.

Please advice me the emission type(s) for FreeDV, such G1D, G1E or G7W ?

 

Rick - 7L1RLL

[jdow]

Here we go again - basically it's whatever makes your equivalent of the
FCC happy. Properly speaking it's a multiple simultaneous modulated tones
mode for voice.

{^_^} Joanne/W6MKU

[Rick Wakatori]

Thanks Joanne，
　Did the FCC permit FreeDV already in USA?.
Rick 7L1RLL

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[Mark Jessop]

By my reckoning FreeDV is G7W.

G - Emission in which the main carrier is phase modulated
7 - Two or more channels containing quantized or digital information.
W - Combination of Telephony and Data transmission.

If emission designators are the same worldwide, then this should be the
same worldwide. In Australia the restrictions for standard and advanced
amateur operators are bandwidth based, not emission based[1], and FreeDV
falls well within those bandwidth restrictions.

Cheers,
Mark

[1]
http://www.wia.org.au/licenses/assessor/documentation/documents/RadcomLicenceConditions_2010.pdf

[Rick Wakatori]

Mark
Thanks for your opinion. These emission designator should be a same in the world in a case to travering with permission paper.
I thought G7W will be no argument in the world.

Rick 7L1RLL

> -----Original Message-----
> From: digita...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:digita...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Jessop
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 6:39 PM
> To: digita...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [digitalvoice] Emission Designator(s) for FreeDV
>

[jdow]

I take the high road and note that the FCC did not specifically disallow
it while allowing digital speech in general.

But note that I also support the people who take careful notice that the
FCC has made no rule regulating either how often we change frequencies
during a QSO or how long we stay on one frequency during a QSO. I figure
that makes frequency hopping quite legal, even very fast frequency
hopping.

{^_^} Joanne/W6MKU (has a 40+ year love affair with frequency hopping.)

[siegfried jackstien]

> I take the high road and note that the FCC did not specifically disallow
> it while allowing digital speech in general.
>
> But note that I also support the people who take careful notice that the
> FCC has made no rule regulating either how often we change frequencies
> during a QSO or how long we stay on one frequency during a QSO. I figure
> that makes frequency hopping quite legal, even very fast frequency
> hopping.

That would be spread spectrum mode I guess ... so fcc sure will moan about
that ... (as far as I know SS is allowed only above 220megs ... reason why
us hams can not use "ROS" on shortwave)

Overall ROS is something like mfsk (multiple single tones spread over 3kc
channel) ... only the tone coding is SS ... so I AM A HAPPY CAMPER TO LIVE
IN DL :-) ...no problems of using new modes ... (if they stay in ONE 3kc
channel EVERY mode should be allowed I think)

Dg9bfc

sigi

[jdow]

Well, when does QSYing to escape QRM become frequency hopping? It has not
really been defined. It could affect contest operations in some cases.

{^_-} Joanne/W6MKU

[siegfried jackstien]

I think that it is SS when done automatic and synced on both sides

Nobody would think it is SS if you manually tune to different qrg (after the
other ham asked you to do thatcause he has qrm on that frequency) ... but if
your rig and the other ones rig switch to other qrg synced by an automated
process then sure it is SS (and before switching to other frequency one have
to check if it is a free qrg ... one major reason why SS is not good!!)

Dg9bfc

Sigi


> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: digita...@googlegroups.com [mailto:digita...@googlegroups.com]
> Im Auftrag von jdow
> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Mai 2013 12:21
> An: digita...@googlegroups.com
> Betreff: Re: AW: [digitalvoice] Emission Designator(s) for FreeDV

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[Bruce Perens]

It would be 1K25J2E right now. Since it's software, this might change
some day.

Thanks

Bruce

[Bruce Perens]

On 5/24/2013 1:08 AM, Rick Wakatori wrote:
> Thanks Joanne，
> 　Did the FCC permit FreeDV already in USA?.
> Rick 7L1RLL
>

J2E is already permitted, so we didn't have to ask.

[Bruce Perens]

On 5/24/2013 5:07 AM, siegfried jackstien wrote:
> That would be spread spectrum mode I guess

Not our emission. It's multi-carrier, but not spread spectrum. It is
compliant with FCC Part 97.

This is not to say that Part 97 is without flaws. We have a request for
changes into FCC, and it won't be the last.

Thanks

Bruce

[Mark Jessop]

I don't believe FreeDV can be given a J3E emission designator. I'll use
the licensing of DSTAR repeaters here in Australia as an example - the
DSTAR repeater run by my amateur radio club has a emission designator of
6K25W7W [1].

Explanation of that [2]:
W - Cases not covered above, in which an emission consists of the main
carrier modulated, either simultaneously or in a pre-established
sequence, in a combination of two or more of the following modes;
amplitude, angle, pulse.

7 - Two or more channels containing quantized or digital information

W - Combination of the above (meaning telephony and data transmission I
assume)

DSTAR operates similarly to FreeDV in that there are two channels of
data: voice and text (or control data in DSTARs case). Since the voice
data is quantized and coded, it cannot have the '3', meaning 'A single
channel containing analogue information', and hence must have either a
'1', '2' or '7'. Since there are multiple channels of information, it
gets '7'.

I haven't looked too much into DSTARs modulation scheme, so I'm not sure
why it was given the first 'W', but I guess that could be applied to
FreeDV too. Since FreeDV has both voice data and the text channel, it
has to be given a 'W' for the last symbol.

So by my reckoning, FreeDV should be either 1K25G7W or 1K25W7W.

- Mark VK5QI

[1]
http://web.acma.gov.au/pls/radcom/licence_search.licence_lookup?pSOURCE=RADCOM&pLICENCE_NO=1907712
[2] http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_assets/main/lib100342/emission(rib8).pdf

[Steve]

G7W can't be used in the USA, so if you want to call it that, you will lose customers.

We use J2E and J2D for good reason over here: everything else is illegal on HF. :-)

[Steve]

USA Phone Rules:

97.3(c)(5) Phone. Speech and other sound emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; 1, 2 or 3 as the second symbol; E as the third symbol.

Also speech emissions having B as the first symbol; 7, 8 or 9 as the second symbol; E as the third symbol.

MCW for the purpose of performing the station identification procedure, or for providing telegraphy practice interspersed with speech.

Incidental tones for the purpose of selective calling or alerting or to control the level of a demodulated signal may also be considered phone.

[Bruce Perens]

Please see http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=licensing_2&id=industrial_business
This is how FCC would like you to format emission designators. On that page they designate frequency-modulated digital voice with a single carrier as F1E. Our F2E designation fits what they request on this page. This is not to say that what they want is right, it's just what they want.

IMO, emission designators aren't very useful any longer. I asked FCC to just use bandwidth in our comment on RM-11625, but I doubt they will do what we ask on the first try.

    Thanks

    Bruce

[Steve]

For the lawyers, I looked-up in the ITU:

ITU Definition Lookup

The definition of a "channel":  This definition would allow the use of BPSK and QPSK or even Morse ID, and even analog signals to be combined into a "specific radio signal in a specified portion of the RF spectrum.  So, combining all that would be a single channel.

A Television channel may have a Video portion, and a Voice portion, and a Sync portion, but it is a single channel.

A single channel carries a designation of "2"  Since you are using a SSB transmitter the first designator is "J" and since you are transmitting substantially Voice, the third designator is "E".

A NTSC Television channel substantially transmits video, and thus it is C3F, so you can see the FM audio, and sync, play no role in the designation.

Term : "Channel; radio-frequency channel"

Definition : A specified portion of the RF spectrum which carries a specific radio signal

[Bruce Perens]

This is why I really dislike that last letter "E". Our soft modem sends digital data over RF. Period. The fact that we have voice on top of that is only the momentary use of the data channel. Although the FreeDV software does not support it right now, we could easily have keyboard-to-keyboard there, or file transfers, or ASCII art.

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[jdow]

We checked for used frequencies in the 70s. If we cannot do it today,
oh well. Besides, fast frequency hopping sounds remarkably like simple
ignition noise. ALE amounts to frequency hopping if you think about it.
And so far it is legal.

{^_-} Joanne/W6MKU

On 2013/05/24 05:40, siegfried jackstien wrote:
> I think that it is SS when done automatic and synced on both sides
>
> Nobody would think it is SS if you manually tune to different qrg (after the
> other ham asked you to do thatcause he has qrm on that frequency) ... but if
> your rig and the other ones rig switch to other qrg synced by an automated
> process then sure it is SS (and before switching to other frequency one have
> to check if it is a free qrg ... one major reason why SS is not good!!)
>
> Dg9bfc
>
> Sigi
>
>

>> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----

[jdow]

I repeat that it is not J2E - UNLESS that is the juju to get it past the
idiots at the FCC, who aren't really paying any attention anyway.

{^_^} Joanne/W6MKU

[siegfried jackstien]

Ok .. a bit off topic ...

Ros sends digital data over rf ... period :-)

Single channel

Containing digital data (text)

Single tones shifted over the ONE channel (no channel hopping so in my eyes
not spread spectrum)

Wider as needed ?? maybe ... cause is not every other mode wider as a cw
note wider as needed for transmitting information ?!? (just being a bit
sarcastic here)

So ... question to all genius guys here : ... what would be designator of
"ros"??

Dg9bfc

sigi



> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: digita...@googlegroups.com [mailto:digita...@googlegroups.com]
> Im Auftrag von Bruce Perens
> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Mai 2013 16:44
> An: digita...@googlegroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [digitalvoice] Re: How FCC would like you to format emission
> designators
>

> This is why I really dislike that last letter "E". Our soft modem sends
> digital data over RF. Period. The fact that we have voice on top of that
> is only the momentary use of the data channel. Although the FreeDV
> software does not support it right now, we could easily have keyboard-to-
> keyboard there, or file transfers, or ASCII art.
>
> On 5/24/2013 9:37 AM, Steve wrote:
>
>
> For the lawyers, I looked-up in the ITU:
>

> ITU Definition Lookup <http://www.itu.int/ITU-
> R/index.asp?redirect=true&category=information&rlink=terminology-
> database&lang=en&adsearch=&SearchTerminology=&collection=&sector=&language
> =all&part=abbreviationterm&kind=anywhere&StartRecord=1&NumberRecords=50>

[Steve]

Here's a graphic.  When you transmit analog voice SSB, the FCC uses J3E, when you transmit digital voice SSB, the FCC uses J2E.

No voodoo involved.

If the intention is to transmit one channel, then all the signals and modulation methods used to perform that, are part of the channel.

A good example is NTSC television. The Audio modulation is never referred to in the emission designation, as the single channel is video.

[Steinar Aanesland]

I'm so glad I don't have to live under this FCC regime.
It reminds me of the "good" old USSR

LA5VNA Steinar

--

[Steve]

Actually, the rules are so simple, that people add complexity to make the hobby seem more scientific :-)

I think I read last week, that there are only 3 Commissioners left.  It's a dying agency. Probably will become part of the Gestapo (oops, I mean Homeland Security).

[Mel Whitten]

Joanne,

I was told many years ago by an ARRL ITU representative who attended these
ITU meetings that the designator is the BW followed by J2E. This is why J2E
is in the original FDMDV and now the FreeDV spec. Yes, the current spec
does not reflect the current BW for 1600 but it is a living doc and will be
updated as we more forward to FreeDV v1.0 and beyond.

I am perfectly happy to show DV in my logbook and at this point, the FCC is
probably too, but I am not going to ask'em.

Mel

----- Original Message -----
From: "jdow" <jd...@earthlink.net>
To: <digita...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: [digitalvoice] Emission Designator(s) for FreeDV

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[Bruce Perens]

Nomination to the Comission is a political plum and thus you will see a lot of people who are long-time supporters of the current administration picked. But the nomination also has to be approved by congress, so the people selected are in general not anathema to either party. There is one nomination currently in process.

DHS is much more likely to disappear during some future administration - actually to be folded back into DOD and department of commerce. Certainly TSA has few fans.

But this is mostly irrelevant to Amateur issues. We are handled at a bureaucratic level and mostly by one person, Bill Cross. You can go to DC and visit Mr. Cross and some of the other wireless bureau folks if you feel strongly about some issue, or call them on the phone. We did both during the push for ending code testing. There is some paperwork to be filed so that the public knows you've made the visit and can do things in opposition if that suits them. I will probably make more of these visits as part of reforming digital rules.

Thanks

Bruce

--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[jdow]

Where does the J come from when you look at the signal's spectrum? I refuse
to accept any logic that declares "because it was translated to its final
frequency from an initial audio frequency IF it is SSB" when it's a multi-
tone digital waveform. I will accept the illogic that this is what the FCC
will accept because they are dumber than dead toads (or lawyers), however.

{^_^} Joanne/W6MKU

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>
>

> channel.png
>
>

[jdow]

Doesn't it, though. That's very depressing to those who recognize this
fine detail about the BHO regime.

{o.o}

[jdow]

Ah - so the ITU believes in magic, too. Idiots.

What is it if I generate it directly at RF using a fancy digital
algorithm driving a D/A converter? Did anybody ask the null brain
creature?

{+_+}

[Tony Langdon]

On 26/05/13 9:22 AM, jdow wrote:
> Where does the J come from when you look at the signal's spectrum? I
> refuse
> to accept any logic that declares "because it was translated to its final
> frequency from an initial audio frequency IF it is SSB" when it's a
> multi-
> tone digital waveform. I will accept the illogic that this is what the
> FCC
> will accept because they are dumber than dead toads (or lawyers),
> however.

I also disagree with the J. The face a SSB radio is used is
irrelevant. For FreeDV, as well as all those digital modes, and even
MCW on SSB, the radio is merely a narrowband IF from 300 to 3000 Hz
(approximately), with image reject mixing (the SSB modulator) to start
the process of increasing the frequency to the final transmission frequency.

In any case, these days the way the FCC does things seems rather archaic
and silly to those of us who have lived under bandwidth regulation for
years.

Another example of the silliness - CW is always expressed as A1A. Fair
enough, except I happen to know that the Yaesu FT-7 generates CW by
feeding an audio tone from a sinewave oscillator into the microphone
audio path when in CW mode (I obtained that from reading the
schematic). According to the preceeding logic, that's J2A, but on air,
how would one tell the difference?

Is it J2A? Or is it A1A, with the modulation taking place at an initial
IF frequency of 700-800 Hz?

--
73 de Tony VK3JED
http://vkradio.com

[Marciniak, Ed]

The practical difference between emissions designations would be where or whether you would expect to find an incompletely suppressed carrier (or its harmonics) or opposite sideband and that depends on the details of how the signal was generated.

73,

Ed
NB0M

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Langdon [mailto:vk3...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 01:17 AM
To: digita...@googlegroups.com <digita...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [digitalvoice] Emission Designator(s) for FreeDV

[jdow]

You would have to have either an extraordinarily narrow band receiver
or an exceptionally strong signal to find the suppressed carrier on
an ICOM 756 ProII, for example.

So your reasoning makes CW on a ProII into J2A or something?
{^_^}

[Tony Langdon]

On 27/05/13 12:23 AM, Marciniak, Ed wrote:
> The practical difference between emissions designations would be where or whether you would expect to find an incompletely suppressed carrier (or its harmonics) or opposite sideband and that depends on the details of how the signal was generated.

With constant advances in technology, including DSP, the odds of finding
these are small and getting smaller all the time.

And besides, what's the difference between carrier leakage and opposite
sideband leakage from LO bleed-through and image bleed-through? They
are the same thing, except for the frequency separation from the wanted
signal.

[siegfried jackstien]

Extraordinarily narrow band receiver??? Any sdr should show that signal in
the waterfall and spectrum view I guess

If you do cw with a REAL cw transmitter or if you make it with an ssb rig
and modulating with a tone "seems" to be the same BUT if your ssb rig puts
out some carrier or unwanted sideband then there IS sure a difference

(not to count the difference when your modulating tone is not a pure sine
wave)

Dg9bfc

Sigi

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: digita...@googlegroups.com [mailto:digita...@googlegroups.com]

> Im Auftrag von jdow
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Mai 2013 22:31
> An: digita...@googlegroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [digitalvoice] Emission Designator(s) for FreeDV

[jdow]

Not at average signal levels. Given a well calibrated S meter, which I
have never seen yet in real ham gear other than maybe Collins equipment,
you have S0 noise, an SSB generated signal at 20dB over S9, and your
spurious is down around the noise level. More realistically with 20 dB
over S9 the receiver noise floor is 20 dB to 30 dB higher. ProII SSB
carrier rejection is rated at 80 dB down, supposedly. In practice it
seems to be "way the heck down there." Opposite sideband is rated at 55dB
down, very hard to see. I've not noticed a ProII or equivalent rig's
phantom carrier or opposite sideband.

Since the SSB signal is generated digitally, it can feature perfect
carrier suppression within 16 bit limits, somewhere close to 90 dB.
Some ICOM literature describing their modulation process suggested 80 dB,
so that's the figure I used. That is better than the average 455 kHz
"carrier" rejection on Collins S-Line. So is Collins S-Line JJ rather
than single J. Oh, wait, they have multiple conversion in there. Is
it JJJJ or something?

Face it. It's superstition that makes digital modes fed through a USB
transmitter from a 1.5 kHz IF an "SSB" signal rather than a proper
digital signal.

That means the ProII's FM mode is really SSB?

The spectrum produced should be what matters for the description. The
FCC is embarrassing themselves like little children with wet pants over
this. (Which attitude is why I am NOT getting involved with the creatures.
My patience with that level of foolishness is too low. I do NOT
guarantee to be politically correct for anybody at any given time.)

{^_^} Joanne/W6MKU

On 2013/05/27 03:45, siegfried jackstien wrote:
> Extraordinarily narrow band receiver??? Any sdr should show that signal in
> the waterfall and spectrum view I guess
>
> If you do cw with a REAL cw transmitter or if you make it with an ssb rig
> and modulating with a tone "seems" to be the same BUT if your ssb rig puts
> out some carrier or unwanted sideband then there IS sure a difference
>
> (not to count the difference when your modulating tone is not a pure sine
> wave)
>
> Dg9bfc
>
> Sigi
>
>

>> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----