It's Not About Stopping Thought

[Rob MacDonald]

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to throw this out there as it has been something that keeps arising for me.

I was chatting with someone the other day about beliefs vs. values.  After a while I kind of stopped contributing to the discussion because both are made of the same fabric of 'brain stuff' and they are constantly evolving.  For instance, you might value generosity or peacefulness, but these may evolve based on circumstances from our lived experience.

It also made me realize that while some purported gurus or teachers may have transcended thought, for us groundlings, it seems like 'seeing' these thoughts and impulses is where true transformation is possible.

Maybe I am the only one, but one of the assumptions on this journeyless journey has been that one day there would be a cessation of thoughts, maybe that is a possible flavor of human consciousness that is possible, just like other states of consciousness are possible with 'substances' or 'medicine', but from this perspective, the more I feel in my lived experience, the deeper that energy resonates, and it quickly triggers thoughts/beliefs.  Maybe there is a clearing out of that at some point, but for now, there's no stopping the thoughts, but thee is a clear seeing and an opportunity to let it arise and fade, instead of acting on it.  And even in the acting on it... Facebook comments on articles where people say educators make too much money still generate a reaction 😂 ... but that is okay, because that is how this living thing works.  

I guess more than anything I wanted to open the floor for others to contribute their experiences here.  

Has anyone transcended thought?  Is it a temporary state like partaking in a 'substance'?  Can one dwell there for an extended period of time?  Isn't it true that we all operate within some belief system during this human experience?

Regarding the last question, even as I write this, my belief that I see more of the thoughts as they arise and can choose a better reaction is, technically, just another belief.  😁

Anyway, submitting for your consideration.

-Rob M.

[Jeffrey Angelson]

Rob,

For me, one of the clearest shifts has been that as the sense of a solid, central “me” softens, the volume and frequency of thought often seem to soften as well.

Not that thought disappears. The mind still plans, remembers, reacts, and imagines. That seems part of being human.

But a lot of the mental activity appears connected to maintaining the self-story — replaying, defending, comparing, anticipating, managing.

As identification with that story relaxes, there can sometimes be a quieter mind. Less compulsive narration. A little more space.

Awareness also seems able, at times, to interrupt what Buddhism calls the “second arrow” before the mind builds an entire story around the initial reaction.

So at least here, the shift hasn’t been about transcending thought so much as being less entangled in it.

And with that, thought itself often seems to settle a bit on its own.

-Jeff

Jeff Angelson

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Diehard Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to diehard-grou...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAN6ZE8Jx%3D2RcKWnagj6fAOguqG33LntD9sAnAvLOvtX6chPmyw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Paul Rezendes]

Rob M.,

I’ve appreciated the emails you have been sending in as well as Jeff's emails. I would like to respond to your email.

I don't feel like I've transcended thought; there's nobody to transcend thought. There's no thinker that has control over thought, although for me these days thought can stop occasionally while meditating or not. I don't see that it makes a difference. I am aware of people who say thought has stopped for them for a week or so or maybe even longer. Not sure what they mean by thought; probably just words appearing in their heads. But we all have nonverbal assumptions, it seems to me, working in us all the time in order to navigate the world. For instance, David Bohm often pointed to the importance of these nonverbal beliefs or assumptions by saying (and I’m paraphrasing), “ When you walk across the floor in a room or an auditorium, there is an implicit nonverbal assumption that the floor is solid and you walk in a certain way. On the other hand, if you thought the floor wasn't solid, you wouldn't walk in the same way." So there are all these nonverbal under-the-surface assumptions and belief systems we operate on all the time. They help us navigate the world. I don't think we can do without history or these nonverbal assumptions.

Just my take on it.

Thanks for the emails.

Paul

[Jeffrey Angelson]

I really appreciate this.

The distinction you’re making feels important. It’s not that “I” transcend thought, because that would still imply a separate someone standing apart from thought and managing it  That is  a thought  

It also lands that we are operating with many non verbal rules, belief systems if you will. 

Jeff Angelson

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/2711B297-1FA6-43CB-B592-5884C5C0C4C0%40paulrezendes.com.

[Dan Kilpatrick]

Paul, Jeff, Rob M, and everyone,

Paul, I really appreciated what you shared here about how assuming operates in our lives. It brings up that there may be different kinds of assuming operating. One is in relation to the physical world, which you described here so well. A sort of built-in operating in us naturally, but isn't always precise either. The other is in relation to our psychology (again as you pointed out), as in assuming certain things about others and ourselves. It really is our psychology operating as this assuming. It moves in relation to itself, its own virtual reality taken to be as concrete as concrete itself.  Thanks, -Dan

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAAUbiCS--KuYcxiBHKR%3DfCNQVKutVp%2BAA4HWT%2BvxvdOEqqRweQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Paul Rezendes]

Dan,

Yes, I agree. Assumptions about the floor being solid for navigation of the planet, that's one thing. Then there are assumptions about the thinker of the thought being in control of thought, now that's something else.

Paul

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAGgGDoBzX9NgT9yeDv%3DCXNZSqMNfmhO%3DJ8-%2ByUwxkk3BA1ZWMw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Robert Harwood]

Rob,

It's not too difficult to learn how to stop thinking, but it does require persistence. If you shift attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, again and again, thoughts will slow down, and eventually thinking can stop for as long as one wishes. Thinking is just a habit, and is not necessary. Some people have no mindtalk at all, and they function just fine in everyday life. What we can call "subconscious mental processing" is doing everything, and mindtalk is just a reflective overlay. Learning to stop verbal mindtalk is like learning to speed read. Speed readers do not mentally speak the words they read. They look at a page of print  and understand what the words mean in mental silence just by looking at the words. The primary advantage of breaking the habit of reflective thoughts is that thoughts lose the power to distract and confuse. The goal of many ND traditions is called"non-abidance in mind," and in that state the mind becomes a servant rather than a master. Most people believe their thoughts and that's a big mistake. Most people also believe that they are the thinker of their thoughts, and that is the basic illusion that keeps people stuck in a meta-reality of their own creation. If one escapes the illusion of "me" it will no longer matter whether the mind talks or is silent. All the best.

Bob  

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/41CFED83-FCE3-4E9D-BEF1-31D990EB21ED%40paulrezendes.com.

[Jeffrey Angelson]

Bob,

This resonates. Particularly the shift from living in reflective thought to direct experience and seeing thoughts lose some of their authority.

I’ve found that when thinking becomes excessive or unmanaged, bringing attention to simple beingness itself — without trying to change anything — can soften identification and quiet the mind considerably. Not forcing silence, but noticing what remains when attention isn’t fully captured by thought.

For me, the interesting part isn’t whether thoughts completely disappear, but how differently they function when they are no longer automatically believed or experienced as “me.”

Appreciate you sharing this

Jeff 

Jeff Angelson

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAKsd%2B1-s%2B-ijzKKkvd-fu2efiAp7Hb3TJq5T0WUNJQAs%3DFUE%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rani Madhavapeddi]

On thoughts: 

There is a seeing that thoughts are the source of separation, conflict, anxiety, anger, and expectations. When we observe thoughts and stay with them, we realize they are not tangible; they come and go. So seeing this leads to detachment from thoughts. They don't seem so sticky.  When someone is angry/demeans/disrespects you, whatever arises as a reaction, response and reflection now does not have as much stickiness, so there may even be laughter at the whole situation. Then we pay less and less attention to thoughts and stay more in what IS. 

This need not be sequential. Meditators can be blank for long periods, even when not meditating. Some people don't think much, and don't act as much, wait for action to arise spontaneously?   (can be dubbed lazy by society ? ) ... thinking is acquired/conditioned?? 

Just my 1 cent....

rani

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAAUbiCRAUv5g3iXbeKjEt2EY7Y7piLTRS%3Dw0f_gMN68SJ7DUig%40mail.gmail.com.

[Sheri R]

Hi Rob, 

Just briefly. 

I teach meditation and one of the first things I ask people is whether they can control the lungs processing oxygen and co2. Then I ask if they control the liver producing bile? Intestines digesting - flushing toxins and absorbing nutrients. To all of these they say no. Then I point out that the role of the brain is to think thoughts and that it is NOT The goal of meditation to stop or even control thought. The intention is to stabilize the movement of attention and then thought slows down and can stop temporarily as a by-product of an effective meditation practice. You can feel people exhale with this! 

So, on that note, I don't think thoughts can be transcended any more than any other bodily function. In other words, they can not be transcended. AND, thoughts can change dramatically, ranging from slowing down to stopping temporarily for some. I would not call this transcended however. More like 'trained'. Or, perhaps working more efficiently. This has also been my personal experience. For myself, I would say my brain and its business of thinking is waaayyyyy healthier than it was years ago. 

Just my thoughts. 

With Metta, 

Sheri 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CABEbzzqNnZviHHWkgg%2BfHG2BFehR%3DWKuszD0FvbCfhK-XqNdFw%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Sheri Rink Dip.PT, Acup., RYT

[Janet Asiain]

Sheri’s post:Bob’s post::Yin:Yang 😊

I’m with Sheri here but found Bob’s observation that conscious thought is the unnecessary expression of unconscious operations extremely interesting. Is this so? It sounds “right” but would seem a difficult hypothesis to prove. Can you say more? 

For one thing, is there really a difference between unconscious and conscious operations, other than that we’re know about some but not about others (except through dreams and visions)? So that quitting thought, however you do it, might involve more than the conscious stream. 

Just musing

Janet A

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAAfzGUQEgyMu110LHEqJGiZHFBwz03spsXSjzG4TBa0p0mt%2B_Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Sheri R]

Janet and All, 

Most, if not all, extraneous habituated thought can be attributed to the default mode network. The DMN is fed by subconscious operations including memory, feelings, trauma (part of memory), beliefs, thoughts, etc. it is networked with the amygdala (part of the reptilian brain) and is the main fight/flight center of the ANS. The DMN runs without voluntary control. 

Research in reputable universities has proven the DMN (reflective thought as Bob called it) slows down considerably and the amygdala shrinks with effective meditation practices. 

So, in this sense, it’s provable. 

Nice science is catching up! 

Sheri

Sheri Rink Dip.PT, Acup., RYT

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAGdKTP6QWN7ETHSiptO%2Bip%3DbotjehqtUwvO-meq3rvdwJ_8KwA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Janet Asiain]

Thanks Sheri! I always appreciate it when science catches up —

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAAfzGUQA-Fb2b0pAM7CjNBxCAU5s1%2B4TUuJO3H8KLCyvvLmcyA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Jeffrey Angelson]

Where Janice All

Janet and Sheri,

Interesting discussion.

Sheri, I agree there is growing evidence that meditation practices can quiet reflective thought and support nervous system regulation. Science does seem to be catching up in some important ways.

Janet, your question about conscious and unconscious operations also feels important. It raises an interesting possibility: are conscious and unconscious processes truly separate things, or different aspects of the same unfolding — some known to awareness, others operating outside of it?

One thing I’ve also been reflecting on relates to anxiety and breathing.

For some people, guidance around breath may help. For others, especially when anxiety is high, simply noticing the breath without trying to correct it may allow the nervous system to settle on its own.

Many meditation traditions point toward something very simple: just observe. No correction. Nothing to do.

Thich Nhat Hanh taught monks to begin simply:

“Breathing in, I know I am breathing in. Breathing out, I know I am breathing out.”

Then awareness deepens:

A short breath is known as a short breath. A long breath is known as a long breath.

Not changing. Not fixing. Simply noticing.

Breathing fast? Notice that. Breathing slowly? Notice that too. Anxiety present? Notice that too.

Perhaps there are times to guide the breath, and times simply to witness it. Sometimes the body knows how to find coherence on its own when we stop interfering.

Hope this is helpful.

Jeff

Jeff Angelson

On Thu, May 21, 2026 at 6:50 AM Sheri R <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAAfzGUQA-Fb2b0pAM7CjNBxCAU5s1%2B4TUuJO3H8KLCyvvLmcyA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Robert Harwood]

Yes, as Sheri pointed out, neuroscientists know that the brain exhibits what is called "plasticity" and it physically changes as a result of meditation. Meditation also triggers what docs call "the relaxation response," and has many health benefits. I was fascinated to learn a few years ago that some people have no internal dialogue (mindtalk). Those people learn to distinguish the world in the same way as other people, but their minds don't talk about anything verbally. Those people are surprised to learn that most people have a voice in their heads, and have no idea what that kind of experience would be like. They interact with the world in mental silence, but they are obviously still attached to the distinctions that they were conditioned to imagine, so mental silence, alone, isn't sufficient for waking up from the consensus paradigm. I was curious to know more about those folks, but I never got a response from the two psychologists who are leaders in the field of studying mindtalk to the letters I sent them--either because I didn't include sufficient academic credentials or because my questions fell outside the scope of anything they knew about--haha.

Serious meditators sometimes fall into the state of nirvikalpa samadhi, and when that happens, everything disappears, and only pure awareness remains. It is a very blissful state, but there is no entity experiencing the bliss. Zen people call it "the falling off of body and mind" and it is an extraordinary state that can last several hours or even longer. I've speculated that NS probably loosens up the intellect in some way because people often have cosmic consciousness (kensho) events occur following periods of NS. NS usually occurs as a result of focusing attention strongly upon some specific thing, such as a single sound or the breathing process. Thoughts come to a stop, and one can feel many somatic phenomena along with a sense of everything become unified. At a certain point that I call "the threshold" a kind of internal gravity pulls awareness inwards and everything begins to disappear--the sense of selfhood, the sense of time, and finally all sense perception ceases. The "threshold" is sort of like the way one can move a piece of metal toward a magnet, and at a certain point the magnetic attraction becomes strong enough that it grabs the metal and yanks it out of one's hand. It feels like everything gets sucked into a void until only awareness with no content remains. When coming out of NS, everything seems to move in slow motion and it feels as if one is slowly coming back into a body and regaining perceptivity and proprioception again. I initially fell into that state while focusing attention upon feeling the breathing process. Years later, I found that I could close my eyes and fall into that state by focusing attention upon a single sound. It's just another strange phenomenon that can occur via intense meditation. The other common phenomena include kriya (muscles twitching and jumping) as attention becomes more intense and focused, and hallucinatory stuff (makyo). Fortunately, makyo is usually only something that occurs in tthe first year or so of meditation and then it ceases. The body/mind organism is pretty amazing!

 

Bob 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAAUbiCTmJ_jxkFA2wHLVJzipk9YtphoK8Vxe6s67CNJTBzuU2Q%40mail.gmail.com.