The Morning After

[Jeffrey Angelson]

Last nights meeting left me feeling 

There comes a point where sitting by the lake, hearing birds, eating pancakes, laughing with friends, or planting euphorbia expresses the understanding more fully than another explanation of it.

What we see points to reality.
Not away from it.

Perhaps the ordinary was never hiding the sacred.
Perhaps it was revealing it all along.

Not because words are wrong.
But because life itself quietly becomes the teaching.

Jeff Angelson

[Rani Madhavapeddi]

Jeffrey,

Life IS the rest is from the mind chatter isn’t it? 

Rani Madhavapeddi Patel

On May 15, 2026, at 4:37 AM, Jeffrey Angelson <jeff.a...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeffrey Angelson]

Rani 

I agree. For me it feels that thoughts obscure LIFE. 

Jeff Angelson

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[Rob MacDonald]

And is there really anything wrong with 'mind chatter'?

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Jeff, Rani, All,

A brief question comes up here: are thoughts obscuring living, or is living also the movement of thoughts? It seems to me that when we feel thoughts obscure living, we are now back to thought needing to stop. 

It seems to me that when we are looking through thought, thoughts appear to be things that are separate or outside from where we are looking (thought). This is simply how thought views everything, can't help it, just in its nature (separating). Yet, the very arising of all these thoughts and ways of looking at everything is undivided from living, isn't it?

Nothing "wrong" with looking through thought, it's part of our consciousness. It is here as our consciousness, available to make itself apparent as it is happening in real-time, now, the only "place" it is happening, always. But this is why I can't see how thought moving gets in the way of anything, it is "what is" as it moves, even as it sees what is as being a thing separate from itself, as if from afar. The whole movement can become apparent in a wordless, undefinable way, free of any particular way of looking at it.....  

Confusion may arise when we take the content of thought to be its totality (looking through thought's reality), when thought is always arising freely and alive in the moment, now, non-separately, as actuality or living.

Just my point of view, -Dan

On Fri, May 15, 2026 at 8:44 AM Jeffrey Angelson <jeff.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Rob MacDonald]

Sent my response too soon, but perhaps the simplicity was enough said. :-)

Dan elaborated where I stop, but I also wanted to ask, Jeffrey, "What is it that feels that thoughts obscure life?"

Also, are thoughts and life separate from each other? 

Kind Regards,
Rob  

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Rob M,

I feel we are pointing out the same thing here. -Dan

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[Paul Rezendes]

Everyone on this thread,

Rob M. and Dan, you guys beat me to the punch. I completely agree with your questioning and with what you both are saying. Somehow, we think that thought, the mind, is outside of living somehow and is interrupting life's experience. But thought can't stand outside experience, can it? Can thought stand outside of being related to everything being life itself? I can remember being up on Mount Katahdin and carrying a heavy backpack and a tripod and enjoying the incredible wonders of nature all around me, and then came a thought of my young, beautiful wife, just adding to the beauty of the moment.

Rob and Dan, thanks for your input.

Paul

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[Jeffrey Angelson]

Paul, Rob, Dan,

I really appreciate what all of you are pointing to here. I agree that thought is not outside of life and cannot truly stand apart from experience. Thoughts, too, are part of the movement of living.

At the same time, it seems to me there is a difference between thoughts naturally arising within life and complete identification with the thoughts that arise. Thought itself may not be the issue so much as believing the thoughts and taking them to be who and what we are.

Perhaps the deeper root of the problem is identification with a separate self and the stream of thoughts that arise from that misidentification. From there, thought can begin reinforcing separation, fear, resistance, comparison, and psychological suffering.

But a simple thought arising in the midst of beauty — like remembering someone you love while standing on Katahdin — can itself be part of the beauty and wholeness of the moment.

Jeff Angelson

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Jeff, are there better or worse thoughts? Or is it all thought? And what is identifying, as a movement? Is it simply moving as if thought's reality is true? Just seeing it's so-called content and not it's actual movement? IOW, seeing it through thought?

Thought moves as time, yet it is timeless. This seems apparent when thought is moving for us now, which is not of time. No longer being viewed from within thought itself, which creates time and distance as experiencing.

What comes up, -Dan 

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[Paul Rezendes]

Jeff,

I think what you said here gets to the nitty-gritty of it: "Perhaps the deeper root of the problem is identification with a separate self and the stream of thoughts that arise from that misidentification. From there, thought can begin reinforcing separation, fear, resistance, comparison, and psychological suffering.”

And then what you said here fits in as well, at least for me. "But a simple thought arising in the midst of beauty — like remembering someone you love while standing on Katahdin — can itself be part of the beauty and wholeness of the moment.”

Thanks,

Paul

[Jeffrey Angelson]

Everyone 

Dan

Dan,

What comes up for me is that there probably are “better” and “worse” thoughts practically speaking. Some thoughts bring kindness, clarity, usefulness. Others reinforce fear, separation, resistance, and suffering. But they are all still thought.

So maybe the deeper issue isn’t the existence of thought but identification with it.

To me, identification seems like the movement of taking thought’s story to be reality. Not just thought arising, but living as if its interpretation is unquestionably true. The mind says “me,” “my problem,” “my future,” “my lack,” and the body contracts around the story as though it is solid reality.

And I think you are pointing to something important when you say thought sees its content but not its movement. We usually get caught in what thought is saying rather than noticing the activity itself — comparing, judging, resisting, becoming, protecting a self-image.

That movement seems to create psychological time:
“I was.”
“I should be.”
“I will become.”

Yet the actual arising of thought always happens now.

That’s what I notice more lately. Thoughts still arise, but there is less automatic belief in them. They feel lighter, less personal, more like weather passing through the field instead of commands from reality itself.

And paradoxically, when thought is seen that way, it can become part of the beauty of life too — like remembering someone you love while standing in nature. The problem doesn’t seem to be thought itself so much as unconscious identification with the self-centered movement within thought.

At least that’s what comes up here.

Jeff Angelson

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[Rob MacDonald]

Hi All,

And I'd just point out that when we focus on hiking in nature, surrounded by beauty, and have a thought arise that recalls another subjectively beautiful part of one's lived experience, doesn't say much about anything other than perhaps a connection between two things that are labeled as beautiful or pleasant.

Take Paul's example of Katahdin, maybe that is what Paul relates walking in that natural space, but maybe Paul is joined by three others... one person who broke their ankle hiking the previous year, no doubt that filter may not appreciate the simple beauty as they watch every step on the rocks, especially if it is raining or had recently rained.  Maybe another had a close encounter where they got charged by a moose or a black bear.  Every rustle of the foliage will no doubt inspire thoughts of one form or another.  Maybe the fourth person in the group has never seen a moose or a black bear and is eagerly and excitedly awaiting coming around the corner or reaching an open spot overlooking a swamp to catch a glimpse of these majestic creatures.

All four on the same trail; All four with very different thoughts that arise.  Is anyone more or less living?

I can't recall where I heard this, perhaps in a Zen talk some time ago, but the gist of the talk was about how we elevate thoughts if they evoke a pleasantness or peace, while we run or try to avoid or wrestle with thoughts that arise in moments of pain or discomfort.  Instead of creating categories for our thoughts, could we reach a point where we see the clouds in the sky as a part of the whole, instead of a storm cloud here, and a fair weather cloud there?

Peace,
Rob M.

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Jeff, couldn't agree more. 😊💜🙏

-Dan

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[Paul Rezendes]

Rob M.,

What you are pointing to is well taken.

Paul

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[Jeffrey Angelson]

Rob

Point taken 

Jeff Angelson

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Rob M, what you shared really resonates with me. It brings this up: 

can unpleasantness move through us freely, sensorially as it actually is? Just being this? Sounds like a big ask, but I wonder what happens to all this when it is free to be itself fully. And the same could be said for pleasantness, with which we have no problem but may want to turn into something lasting, holding it so it can't complete itself.

This is clearly not a doing on our part, but seems the absence of this. I guess it happens naturally in its own circumstances. So this is really only positing a possibility. But really it seems to be the nature of everything, never static. And no should or shouldn't in this, just freedom to be.

Thanks, -Dan

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[Jeffrey Angelson]

Dan

Speechless in NJ 😊

Jeff Angelson

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[Robert Harwood]

Just a quick comment about thoughts. As someone who at one time was an intense intellectual, thoughts definitely jerked me around, psychologically, and added tons of stress to my daily life. I once went to a Van Cliburn piano concert and could not enjoy the music because the mind was constantly jabbering about how amazing it was to get to hear Van Cliburn in person, what a fantastic pianist he was, and on and on. The mind's jabbering was so incessant, that I didn't think it was possible for a single moment of silence to ever occur. After I started meditating as an attempt to have more peace of mind, it took almost two years of formal sitting meditation and endless hours of informal ATA-T before the mind could become totally silent and the silence could be known directly without the mind jumping in and commenting on the silence. In the following years the mind became more and more silent until THIS, in the form of this character, could stop thinking at any time and remain silently aware--in a state that many of us call "non-conceptual awareness." 

After the illusion of being a separate volitional entity was penetrated twenty-six years ago, a subsequent minor realization occurred--that it didn't matter whether there was verbal thinking or silence because either condition was a manifestation of THIS and it was THIS that determined whatever was happening.

Two years ago I was amazed to discover that there are people who have never had a voice in the head, and those people have no idea what it would be like to hear themselves talk to themselves mentally! Haha. This shows that the internal dialogue is just a habit that arises in most humans, but is superfluous and unnecessary. When the mind is totally silent, the body continues to function intelligently and appropriately because it knows the world directly, and all distinctions of objects, qualities, and relationships have long since been internalized in the subconscious. 

Although realizations are acausal, their occurrences do seem to be strongly correlated with sustained silence in some people, and I can remember numerous realizations that occurred after silent Zen retreats or silent hikes in wilderness areas. There are also dozens of stories about scientists and mathematicians who had breakthrough realizations of a conceptual nature after taking a break from incessantly ruminating about an unresolvable issue. Poincare was a French mathematician, for example, who struggled with a problem, became exhausted by his thinking, and decided to take a break. He took his children to the zoo, and when he stepped off the bus at the zoo, not thinking about anything, the answer to his problem suddenly became obvious. This is analogous to what often happens to Zen people who ponder difficult existential questions. In the days immediately following a silent retreat, they often have big insights that suddenly occur during a moment when they are not thinking about anything particular. A deeper level of mind has resolved the issue as a result of contemplation, and the answer bursts forth unexpectedly in a moment of relaxation.

Sometimes silence can be golden!

Bob 

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[Jeffrey Angelson]

Bob

Thus is so perfect .. If you want to suffer less do these three things 

• Stop identifying with thoughts
• Slow the momentum of thinking
• Don’t automatically believe thoughts

Jeff Angelson

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Bob, All,

Bob, thanks for sharing the details of your life like this. It brings out for me the rich variety of living's circumstances, yet there can be a shared thread running through it all. And your examples of what happens when the mind is not tracking something brings out something else. One, what hits me in your life's story is that awakening was never separate from the mind's incessant activity, more like a spur that moved in your life (my interpretation). Can't see how there was one without the other.

And similarly for the scientists (by the way, this happened to me numerous times: when really going deeply into something, being immersed in it, something might suddenly come up wholly unexpectedly out of the blue in some unrelated moment). The mind's direct engagement with something again somehow seems wholly undivided from what might ultimately come through. Like the dream of a snake biting its tail being the realization of aromatic rings in organic chemistry. 

I can feel this thread moving in all that you shared...  ☺️

Thanks again, -Dan

On Fri, May 15, 2026 at 1:35 PM Robert Harwood <bob...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Jeffrey Angelson]

Dan

Dan, I have to admit the ouroboros image always gave me the creeps. And organic chemistry may have been the final thing that convinced me not to become a doctor. 😊

Jeff Angelson

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Jeff, All,

Organic chemistry was pretty dry for me. I ultimately got interested in the molecular biology of the nervous system and how it develops. Lots of interesting interactions going on, that ultimately coalesced into a self-interacting whole without separate parts. Who knew? 😉  But like most of living it was a meandering, not knowing where it was going.....  -Dan

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[Jeffrey Angelson]

Dan All

There’s an MD Zach Bruce. He left regular medicine and academics. You might have heard of him. He sounds like a Non Dual teacher but uses none of the lingo. I have read his stuff it’s interesting  

Who knew indeed? 😉

Jeff Angelson

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Thanks for mentioning him, Jeff. I may take a look.

Best, -Dan

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[Rani Madhavapeddi]

For me it was the smell of blood and that formaldehyde that kept me away! 

Ended up doing course work for Biochemistry and Nutrition but submitted thesis for only nutritional PhD. Got fed up after writing one thesis so did not submit for Biochemistry. Why don’t they just let us publish and submit 4-5 papers and be done I wonder 🤔? 

Rani Madhavapeddi Patel

On May 15, 2026, at 11:34 AM, Jeffrey Angelson <jeff.a...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeffrey Angelson]

Rani

My Masters program was done with a number of shorter papers. 

Jeff Angelson

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[Rani Madhavapeddi]

Oh that’s good ! 

Rani Madhavapeddi Patel

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[Jeffrey Angelson]

It was good in a number of ways. You had to cover a lot in a short paper. So you had to really get to the essence of whatever it was. You had to know it well so you could explain in in a concise format. We also had quizzes wvery week as well as midterms and finals 

Jeff Angelson

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[Paul Rezendes]

Diehards,

Finally got to read through all of this in between my work schedule. BobZen, your email caught my attention. Good to see you in there; sure made a lot of sense to me!

Paul

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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Jeff and Rani,

I am with you both. Writing research grants, for example, could be painful at times......  -Dan

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[Rani Madhavapeddi]

My PhD thesis for external evaluation,  was sent to Cambridge, at the Dunn Nutrition Labs. 

Rani Madhavapeddi Patel

On May 15, 2026, at 9:22 PM, Jeffrey Angelson <jeff.a...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Dan Kilpatrick]

Interesting Rani. If I have nutrition questions I know where to go. ☺️

-Dan

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