Religion

[Paul Rezendes]

Dear Diehards,

I had a request from one of our members about traditional religious affiliations. I have been working with people in self-inquiry for well over four decades now. I have heard a lot of heartbreaking stories about people's addiction, for a lack of a better word, to various religious traditions. Some of them have been heartbreaking stories. I have heard a lot of stories about the trauma and friends and family members left behind when people have left their traditions, really heartbreaking stuff. I have watched a lot of people struggle with this. Both Paulette and I were brought up strict Catholic. One of the things I remember most is how I was told over and over that once a Catholic, always a Catholic. I would never not be a Catholic, no matter what I did, no matter how much I renounce Catholicism, I would always be a Catholic. When I left that behind there was much residue for many years before it all just went silent. There are many stories out there. Some of my story on this subject is in my book The Wild Within. This person was hoping that we could share those stories together and look into them and the hold these traditions have on us. The person also noted that this is not often talked about in the Diehards these days. So I thought I would put it out there. It would be great if you could share your stories with us and shed some light on your process as you left these various religious identifications. Or maybe you haven't left and are struggling with it all. How do you deal with the people around you who are so committed to the tradition while you are questioning it? I think it would be helpful to many, so please chime in. Looking forward to seeing what some of you have to share.

Paul

[terrilc...@aol.com]

Paul,

Good suggestion. The topic of religion seems to be one that simmers under the surface of a lot of conversations. In addition to those who left a religious tradition and those who still struggle with one, there are those who are still affiliated with a religion and do not struggle with it, but see the many connections between that religion and the spiritual path. But that religion must have a place for "openness" -- something that those who follow a strict Catholic or Evangelical Christian theology often struggle with. My Christian religious background involves openness, questioning, exploration and dissolution of the "false self," and learning from the Christian mystics.  A quote from the 13th century Christian mystic, Meister Eckhart, just crossed my path today: "Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language."

This "bundle of experiences" is currently a Presbyterian (USA) [considered liberal, mainline] seminary student, and the more I study church history, theology, and ancient Hebrew and Greek scripture, the more parallels I see between the mystic tradition flowing through Christianity-- as well as through the other world religions -- and our 21st-century spiritual endeavors of self-inquiry and openness to the infinite. Mystics over the centuries include many women, for example, Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), Julien of Norwich (1342-1416), and Teresa of Avila (1515-1582) up to contemporary Christians included in the mystic tradition: Kathleen Norris (1947- ), and Cynthia Bourgeault (1947- ).

At times, our conversations seem to involve some former Christians who come from a very rigid religious background, which has not been my experience. I try not to interject too much of my own religious tradition into conversations because the topic tends to bring up uncomfortable experiences others have had with religion. So I will stop here...

But I do appreciate everyone's openness as we all go about "languaging" together each week. Thank you, all.

Blessings,

Terri

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[STEVE Simpson]

Whew! Paul, thanks for the 'poke' 🙂 🙂

First let me say I don't want to press my experience of Christianity on anyone else. what I mean is - if Christianity works for you .... that's great. I have no interest in pushing my experience on anyone else. In fact, if you are still a believer of it, I have to admit a bit of envy.

I was raised Presbyterian/Baptist (the differences are inconsequential, tho many others may disagree) from age 0 to adulthood. I had many 'mystical' experiences during this time and attributed them all to the 'faith'. I swallowed it all, hook, line and sinker as we say in the South.  

---

From: diehar...@googlegroups.com <diehar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Rezendes <pho...@paulrezendes.com>
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 10:05 AM
To: Diehards google <diehar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Religion

 

Dear Diehards,

I had a request from one of our members about traditional religious affiliations. I have been working with people in self-inquiry for well over four decades now. I have heard a lot of heartbreaking stories about people's addiction, for a lack of a better word, to various religious traditions. Some of them have been heartbreaking stories. I have heard a lot of stories about the trauma and friends and family members left behind when people have left their traditions, really heartbreaking stuff. I have watched a lot of people struggle with this. Both Paulette and I were brought up strict Catholic. One of the things I remember most is how I was told over and over that once a Catholic, always a Catholic. I would never not be a Catholic, no matter what I did, no matter how much I renounce Catholicism, I would always be a Catholic. When I left that behind there was much residue for many years before it all just went silent. There are many stories out there. Some of my story on this subject is in my book The Wild Within. This person was hoping that we could share those stories together and look into them and the hold these traditions have on us. The person also noted that this is not often talked about in the Diehards these days. So I thought I would put it out there. It would be great if you could share your stories with us and shed some light on your process as you left these various religious identifications. Or maybe you haven't left and are struggling with it all. How do you deal with the people around you who are so committed to the tradition while you are questioning it? I think it would be helpful to many, so please chime in. Looking forward to seeing what some of you have to share.

Paul

[STEVE Simpson]

sorry for the break. this GD laptop sends messages out prematurely. Ok, the rest

On March 3 2010 my 'faith' fell away. I didn't ask for that to happen and didn't somehow engineer it. Suddenly I just saw that almost all the stuff I'd been told/taught was false. I spent the next 3 days with my mind stunned and absolutely quiet.  I clung to the Jesus thing (believe on me and your sins will be forgiven and when you die you'll go to heaven) for another year or so. When that was seen through as false, I entered a great spiritual vacuum and went searching for what is 'really real'. Eleven years later I find I'm no closer to the answer than when this started. 

I will say this is the most painful, frightening and agonizing experience of my life. Turning from my 'faith' has resulted in the loss of my marriage, my relationship with some of my children and many sleepless nights. I Truely didn't consciously desire to 'see' the falseness of a comfortable belief system. But god damnit ..... i did. 

I look forward to seeing perspectives from others in the group

s

---

From: diehar...@googlegroups.com <diehar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of STEVE Simpson <ssimp...@msn.com>
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 2:03 PM
To: diehar...@googlegroups.com <diehar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Religion

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CO6PR02MB78096D7D4A25E0E041635777C0429%40CO6PR02MB7809.namprd02.prod.outlook.com.

[Dennis Wilke]

I don’t respond much to these Diehards email threads, but I certainly enjoy reading all the insightful and often entertaining comments. Thanks for letting me “lurk”!

I am a practicing Catholic, having intentionally “reactivated” my faith about 10 or 12 years ago. My lukewarm Catholic upbringing left me feeling unattached to the Church for the first 40 or so years of my life. But getting back engaged with Church is what sparked my current spiritual search path.

I must admit that my views on things are evolving every day. And I don’t necessarily go in for all the dogma and traditions of Church teachings. But I have met so many wonderful priests and laypeople that have really stretched my faith, my mind, and my capacity for love. I really have great compassion for the Catholic Church, which after all, is simply a very human institution trying to emulate a divine source.

I’m not immune to or unaware of the many negative effects the Catholic Church has had on the world over 2000 years. But I do see some “truth” in the Mass and the teachings, for certain. And I am inspired by the many Catholic mystics.

I think any “movement” is going to have a very hard time staying true to the original mission and message after 2000 years. I wonder what the TAT conferences will be like in the year 3973?! Lol!

Anyway, I might change my mind, but for now I’m content to take the parts of Catholicism that resonates, and pay less heed to the parts that don’t.

Thanks for letting my chime in.

Dennis

Dennis Wilke

President

Rosedale Technical College

On Apr 26, 2021, at 2:12 PM, STEVE Simpson <SSIMP...@msn.com> wrote:



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[Paul Rezendes]

Dear Terri, Steve, Dennis, and Diehards,

Terri, I would have to agree that the mystics in different traditions and cultures were often pointing to the same thing. Thomas Merton was quick to point this out. It seemed to him that the Buddhist, the Taoist, and people like Saint John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila were really pointing to the same thing, although they had very different ways of pointing and articulating things. What I'm concerned about is these religions that are very dogmatic and authoritarian. They are not very open at all. I'm aware of a lot of people in these traditions and have watched when someone within one of those dogmatic authoritarian traditions starts to question things and the people around them. They may be shunned or pushed out. This is what Steve was pointing to in his email. How does one deal with that? How does one deal with that when your family, your children, or most of your friends are locked into a dogmatic authoritarian principle that you are starting to question? You are really not allowed to question. I can see, Dennis, how you are making peace with this. You probably don't have people around you pressuring you in a certain direction, while others do. Those are the people that I'm concerned about. They are having a difficult time. I have heard many stories from some people whom I am very close to that are similar to Steve’s. Is it possible that these beliefs systems are creating more of a problem than they are intending to fix? Lots of wars have been fought over these beliefs systems. It seems to me people who are attracted to authoritarian belief systems are seeking security within those communities. If you start to question things, people start to feel insecure. You become a threat to them. Things can get real messy. Things may even get messy here as we start to go into this a little more. But let's see what people have to say.

Paul 

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[Bruce Coles]

Hi Paul,

 

This is a really challenging question.  There is a context to my response that is important for understanding, but with which I will likely struggle to articulate concisely and with sufficient clarity.   But here goes:

 

I was raised without any religious teachings or indoctrination.  I believe it was not a conscious decision on my parents’ part; it was just something they didn’t give much, if any, thought to.  Despite that even at the age of five I was pondering questions about the truth of our existence and trying on my own to ferret out answers.

 

Despite the lack of religious grounding, I was very culturally aware, however.  I was descended from Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe.  Most of my Great-grandparents and grandparents had fled to this country to escape the pre-holocaust pogroms that were ravaging their villages in Belarus, Russia, Poland and Germany.  None of my family had the benefit of much education – I was the first to graduate from college – and there was no religious discussion to speak of but there was a strong sense of culture that was often manifested through a characteristic humor and an occasional nod to traditional practice.

 

I had experienced firsthand the sting of antisemitism both as a child and as an adult, the latter mostly from friends and colleagues who did not know my background as they voiced their biases, sometimes in my home as dinner guests.  As a child I struggled with the why of the vilification and the negative stereotypes including wrestling with the thoughts of self-loathing that can arise through those circumstances.

 

One experience that I still recall vividly was the rebuke I received from the father of one of the few Jewish friends I had as a teenager.  This man was a professor at the local state college who had earlier in his young adult years struggled with his faith and then came to embrace it ardently.  He did not think much of me as it was clear he thought I was neither academically nor intellectually sufficient and, further, it was evident I was not "Jewish enough" to suit him.  One day he turned to me and said challengingly, “How can you possibly have an identity without embracing Jewish religious teachings and traditions?”  While I tried to be respectful, I promptly answered him by saying, “Because I am a human being.”  As you can imagine that answer was not met with favor.  But the experience gave me a pervading sense that I did not fit or belong either in the world in general or within the the Jewish world as I understood both at the time.

 

One last contextual event that is important to understanding where my perspective on your question spring from occurred at the age of nine.  My first real hero was Martin Luther King.  But it was not his theology that captured my deep admiration, it was his morality, ethics, and espousal of universal compassion that reached deep into my soul.   And on August 25^th, 1963, I sat transfixed as he gave his iconic, I Have a Dream speech.  Tears were streaming down my young face as he said, “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.” He spoke to a deep  desire that burned strong in my heart to live in a world of love and compassion that embraced the full diversity of humanity. 

 

The possibilities of that time, the Civil Rights and peace movements and the subsequent tragedies of the string of assassinations of those I thought would open the doors to that world I longed for shaped how I thought about the question of religion.

 

By the time I was a teenager, I was really tired of all the “othering” and it seemed that in many instances religion contributed to that or that the teaching of religion were perverted to justify it.  I saw a world where the three religions of the Near East, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam had 3 different names for the same biblical god, yet they could not open up to each other.  And I saw intrafaith division and rancor, as well.  Their myths of participation pertaining only to the “in group,” while the “out group” was viewed as “other.”

 

I also felt that the religious myths were based on a view of the universe that belonged to the 1^st millennium and not in accord with the world I was living in.  And finally, I felt that they were not in accord, and more specifically, not in relationship with Nature.  

My attempt to make sense of all these “isms” was that there was a lot of truth when they are looked at metaphorically and allegorically.  Through metaphor these different teachings could, in my mind, serve to open one to the idea that we are more than we think we are – that there are dimensions to our being and potential for realization and consciousness that are not included in the concept of self.  That our lives are much deeper and broader than our thoughts can conceive and that what we are living is just a fractional inkling of what is really within us. That is, it seemed to me, the power of metaphors of the religions of the west and the mythologies of the east. 

But it also seemed to me that when folks chose to interpret them as facts, trouble seemed to naturally follow.  It was this othering, this conjuring of opposites, that was antithetical to my sense of unity and desire for relationship with the diversity of life and humanity, that ultimately I could not reconcile with the various doctrines that have emerged from thought. 

 

I want to approach the close by saying, I do not denigrate religion.  Every person has a unique perspective on the nature of the divine and their journey of understanding.  Every person has a right to find an aspect of myth that relates to his/her own life in order to, as Joseph Campbell says, “…realize what a wonder the universe is, and what a wonder you are, and [experience] awe before the mystery” and follow that in a manner that is fulfilling and brings a sense of joy and peace.   I clearly understand that I am an extremely limited and fallible human being whose depth and breadth of knowledge and experience is such that I have no clue as to what ultimate truth is and that no thought, particularly no thought of mine, is capable of capturing the transcendent that is unknowable and unknown.  Again, to quote Campbell, “The mystery of life is beyond all human conception… The ultimate mystery of being is beyond all categories of thought… They can only be misunderstood with thought.”

 

I have come to a place where it seems to me that thought can only ‘refer to things’ which ultimately can’t really be thought about.  Instead, I have sought for a way of experiencing and feeling awe and wonder at – instead of trying to understand – the world in order to “open [myself] to the transcendent that informs it and at the same time forms [myself] within it.” [Yes, Campbell again, as he is much wiser and more adept at articulating these concepts than me.]  Basically, as I approach my 67 winter, what I have is a deep sense of gratitude and awe at being alive and waking each day to the mystery of it all along with an abiding respect, love and compassion for life including humankind.  So, I hope the above is not viewed as an indictment of anyone’s beliefs.  It is just my attempt to respond, Paul, to your question.  So, if somehow I have offended then I apologize for the inadequacy of my words to convey what is in my heart.

Best regards,

Bruce

 

 

 

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[Robbie Iacovazzi]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for bringing this subject up … I hope you don’t regret it after this post 😉

I was brought up in a household where science and logic were a religion, and there was very little direct contact with religious traditions. If I did go to Catholic church with my grandmother, I found services very mechanical and uninspiring. So, for most of my adult life I really felt like I was beyond any deeply imprinted “religious” conditioning.

In 2017, there was an innocuous incident that happened that deeply exposed my denial of being transgender. This experience brought the realization that “second hand religious indoctrination” has long been a very real source of suffering for me.  What has been emerging over much of the past four years for me are feelings of shame, guilt and fear from an image that being divine and transgender are mutually exclusive. It has become very clear to me that much of my life has been a struggle to be worthy enough to bridge what appeared to be an irreconcilable divide between my myself (unlovable trans person) and love (trans exclusive).

With the recent Vatican letter to the U.S. Congress reaffirming the Catholic organizations stance that “biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated.” Therefore, “it is one thing to be understanding of human weakness and the complexities of life, and another to accept ideologies that attempt to sunder what are inseparable aspects of reality.” My reaction to this at first was extreme distress … then there was an unshakable calm. There was the observation that what this ancient “religious” organization is professing as some absolute truth … is not my truth. Now, I avoid the Catholic Church for the same reason I don’t often shop at Walmart … in my mind they both can have insensitive and destructive business practices that I don’t want to promote or be subject to.

I love many stories of Jesus and find many insightful passages in the Bible, but I read them without blind faith. I had a dear friend that used to tell me that religions offer sign posts, but are not meant to be hitching posts. Amen to that.

Thank you for listening.

Blessings,
Robbie

[Sheri R]

  Dear Paul, Teri, Steve, Dennis, Bruce and All, 

Paul, this is a very challenging question on so many levels. 

For me, this type of dialogue is at the heart of what we talk about here every week. This is the  living aliveness of Awakening, every bit as whole as the empty aliveness.  

I've started this email many times, and it seems almost too large to give words to, so I'll keep it short. 

Like Steve, the fallout with the church was very, very messy; bridges were burned, relationships irreparably damaged, and that particular inner compass lost forever. I was uncontrollably angry and just didn't (couldn't) back down until there was nothing left. 

I was somehow beyond myself. 

That's what it took to get beyond the hope, the belief, the faith and, most importantly, the love of that religion. I had to go beyond to 'know'/'see'/'understand' the way the mystics did, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, etc. 

Today, I have no problem calling myself a christian. I also have no problem being told by christians I am not a christian. I'll take their word for it as they are more knowledgeable about their doctrine than I.  

The most telling marker that the fallout from the destruction was the 'right' thing, is the sincere ability to be interested in and listen to how and why people love their religion. There is real interest in that, in trying to feel into what the person is desiring from their religion, how it fulfills them, challenges them, informs their lives.   

This is not some utopian  happy ending or blissful state of peace and compassion. It's just clear seeing.  

Thank you all for sharing your stories and backgrounds. They are all so rich, honest....diverse!

With love, s

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--

Sheri Rink Dip.PT, Acup., RYT

[Saima Yousuf]

Thank you Paul, for pointing to this dilemma, and all the Diehards for sharing their past dealings with religion and current view.

I resonated with all I have read so far, and I agree the mystics of all traditions have been pointing to the same thing.  However, many mystics were burned, drowned, etc for heresy/blasphemy.  They were always fighting an uphill battle by living Truth.  Which brings us to Paul’s inquiry: 

How does one deal with parents, spouses, children, friends, etc who are shunning you because they are locked into a dogmatic authoritarian principle that you are starting to question (vocally)?

When someone within one of those dogmatic authoritarian traditions starts to question things and the people around them. They may be shunned or pushed out. This is what Steve was pointing to in his email. How does one deal with that? How does one deal with that when your family, your children, or most of your friends are locked into a dogmatic authoritarian principle that you are starting to question? 

First off, I really resonated with Bruce’s description of “us verses other” feeling when looking from the standpoint of religion.  I have questioned this dogmatic exclusivity since I was a teenager.  I debated older cousins when they said people of all other religions will go to hell.  It just didn’t jive with me that the indescribable Energy that created the Universe, billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, would create human diversity only to punish people for all eternity just for practicing something they were born into?  

Coming from a Muslim household, I was told that we have the “perfected book - the Quran” which came after the Torah, the Bible, and Gospel (and the belief is that they’ve all been manipulated by man.) And “we” have the actual “Word of God”, which was passed miraculously by the Angel Gabriel to Prophet Mohammad (he couldn’t read or write, thus a miracle).  And that it was ordained by God that this covenant shall never be adulterated.  The book is divinity in written form.  We cannot question it - it is blasphemous.  Now, there are beautiful passages in their such as, “I am closer to you than you’re jugular vein.” However, there’s an awful lot of Old Testament wrath, Biblical stories (can be great metaphors) and men getting laws, rules & regulations.

For example, in this last paragraph, if I was around Muslim community, my sin would been have been corrected that I must write “Peace & Blessings on to him” after using Prophet Mohammed’s name.   

Right now is Ramadan, so my family fasts from before sunrise to sunset. No food, water, or medicine, nothing injested - (only if you’re healthy enough to fast though.) I also fast but I do it in the spirit of being more aware of my bodily sensations, or just Aware of Awareness.  Every weekend there are family gatherings.  Prayers. My mother making sure I have fasted and prayed.  My mother in law asking how many fasts have I kept so far (out of 30)? Quran being played on speakers in the house and people discussing how we can live more piously by being like the Prophet. (Use the Buddha to seek the Buddha... opposite of Huang Po).

It’s these types of authoritarian principles and policing of each other in a personal boundary-crossing manner that gets to me.  I guess I’m in the early stage of cutting off attachments. I have opted to stay silent and go with the flow for now.  I cannot really question anyone, it leads to too much cognitive dissonance and ruins relationships.   So I’ve decided to wait it out, until

something (don’t know what) takes this pretending away or allows me surrender and compassion for them. 

I love the poetry of Rumi (who was a Muslim scholar) which points to the Truth so profoundly.  He also used Biblical references, so I tell myself to be open to it all.  But I must admit, I get upset.  (Then I get upset at the “I” getting upset!)

I wish I could be like some of you who have come to a place of acceptance and allowing other people to practice their faith happily.  I long for this equanimity. I think I’m still stuck in anger and resentment.  Perhaps it has to do with the immense guilt and shame I was brought up with?

Thank you to this group which has helped give clarity. 

🙏🏼

Love,

Saima

NonDual Couch

On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Paul Rezendes <pho...@paulrezendes.com> wrote:

Dear Terri, Steve, Dennis, and Diehards,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/86E075E8-67BC-4933-9C3D-30A50798050C%40paulrezendes.com.

[Paul Rezendes]

Bruce and Diehards,

Wow, very powerful! I carefully read every last word, sometimes with tears flowing. I so much appreciate your email, and I'm so glad you took the time to write it. I found a lot of meaning in it.

With appreciation and love,

Paul

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/CAF%2B97ffLo49dXnD_BteV4CVhaXsZv7ub13e_PzNPZZR4yyqg2w%40mail.gmail.com.

[Paul Rezendes]

Dear Diehards,

Thanks to all of you who have contributed so far to this thread. I have also got some private emails. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed at the moment. I have been touched deeply.

More later…

Paul

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diehard-group/A812BE13-FB00-452F-856E-73523E58F965%40gmail.com.

[Paul Rezendes]

I am forwarding this email for Matt. For some reason he was not able to post it. See below.

Paul

Begin forwarded message:

From: Matthew McGuire <mcgu...@icloud.com>

Subject: RE: Religion

Date: April 27, 2021 at 6:13:39 AM EDT

To: pho...@paulrezendes.com

Hello Paul,

Apologies for contacting you via this email but I wanted to respond to your Diehards post on religion. I don't have permission to respond to a Diehards post so I am sending it directly to you. I've been hesitant to email you so perhaps this will break that ice.

I am not much of a participator, but this subject burns deep. I feel a strong desire to comment, countered by anxiety that my conditioned image will take over anything I write, especially in review and editing. It has been an exhausting mental fight lately, overanalyzing and seeing image’s hand in everything.

My first memories from childhood are of sitting at the kitchen table with my Catholic father and Methodist grandfather, listening to them animatedly argue over the Bible and who was/was not going to Hell. I attended catechism and completed the Eucharist and confirmation before my parents relaxed. Around age 12, while falling asleep one night, I had a flash of awareness that there was no God and that everything said about God was a lie. The realization terrified me. I had the exact same flash of insight several times in adolescence, each time causing terrifying panic. My mind ran away.

At age 14, I read Bertrand Russell’s books Conquest of Happiness and Why I am not a Christian. That led to R. G. Ingersoll and other agnostic writings. I labelled as agnostic until 19 when I had a religious conversion into fundamental Christianity. I attended church 3 times a week and knocked doors on Tuesdays. After a year I became aware that I did not feel God in my heart. So, I started reading existential philosophy again and ended up moving back towards agnosticism.

At age 22, on a turbulent flight from California to Okinawa, I had a “fear of death” religious experience that reunited me with Christianity. Interestingly, the first thing that came into view upon opening the door to my assigned room in Okinawa was a large open Bible. The next 25 years I struggled between Christianity, existentialism, and depression. What finally gave some certainties were two books by Ernest Becker: Denial of Death and Escape from Evil. Becker thought the main driver behind human behavior was realization of a death that could occur at any time for any reason. He saw culture countering anxiety from the realization of death by providing a vehicle for value and meaning. Feeling a person of value in a world that has meaning is the key to self-esteem. The more you fit the cultural illusion, the less uncertainty and the better you feel about yourself. This paragraph summarizes his view:

“Everything cultural is fabricated and given meaning by the mind, a meaning that was not given by physical nature. Culture is in this sense “supernatural,” and all systematizations of culture have in the end the same goal: to raise men above nature, to assure them that in some way their lives count in the universe more than merely physical things count.”

Becker was a gut punch. He turned out the lights and left me in the dark at the abyss. Becker’s answer was to follow Kierkegaard and take a leap to become a Knight of Faith. The idea is “because the religious is absurd and cannot be understood, it cannot be approached rationally. There is no way we can think matters through and convince ourselves that it is the right step to make. Instead, we must put our faith in God and make the leap”. So that is what I try to live even though I know it is an illusion.

Somewhere in there Krishnamurti and nondualism came along, and another paradigm shift occurred. I had not looked at the world in terms of suffering the way K does and it causes me to see humanity in completely different terms. It encouraged the “leap of faith” approach in terms of giving meaning and value in a purposeless world. If I live in a dream world that is illusion within illusion, and Christianity is the illusion within the illusions causing so much suffering, and my image is a lie…what do I do? When the lights went out it did not leave me feeling one with the universe, just alone. I feel awake in the sense that I see the illusion, but it is just intellectual. I am still caught in seeking value and meaning to comfort my conditioned image even though I know it is an image.  

What drives me these days is the story of Paul Atreides from the book Dune, when he fought foes wearing force shields. The only effective combat method was the deft and precise use of a handheld dagger, but only if moved slowly enough. I see right-wing conservatives in this way. Shielded in an illusion that is exceptionally dangerous to humanity’s ability to continue in whatever this total movement is. I see the language of Jesus as the dagger used in deft and precise ways to penetrate broken minds in a way that allows love to conquer hate. It gives a sense of purpose until nonduality kicks me in the head if it ever does. Until then, I think it fair to say I live a pragmatic variation of Pascal’s Wager.

Thanks for the opportunity to purge all of that.

Matt

 

 

[pho...@paulrezendes.com]

Dear Diehards,

I have carefully read through all your emails on this thread. I am so moved, I am without words at the moment. I think it all speaks for itself in many ways. For now I am silent. Let's see what else comes up.

Paul

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[Janet Asiain]

Diehards, 

I am amazed and on the verge of feeling overwhelmed by the deep truth-telling that is going on in this thread. Deep gratitude for and to those who have shared such profound stories with such coherence and perspective. 

Janet

Sent from my iPhone

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[Ben Brennan]

I wa brought up in a strict Catholic family.   I became quite involved in it all and for a while even wanted to become a priest.  

In my early teens I became more and more fascinated in science.  One evening, around the dinner table, I wanted to discuss the topic of evolution, geology and things that seemed to go plainly against the book of Genesis. 

My dad was always the go-to person on questions of faith, and to my immense disappointment  he just wouldn’t engage me in any meaningful  way, choosing only to contradict me, shoot me down and say ‘if that’s what the bible says, then it must be true’.

This was the beginning of the end of faith for me.   I didn’t realise at the time how traumatic this was, because it led to the collapse all beliefs in scripture and in particular the end of the relationship I had with Jesus... or more correctly with the words of Jesus.

Sadly, this was also the beginning of the end in my total faith in my parents.   I felt betrayed and cheated somehow.   It’s odd because I hadn’t remembered  the magnitude of it until I began writing this email.

Many years later, after a period as a militant atheist, I realised the atheists didn’t have the answers either.  

I eventuality discovered yoga and trained as an instructor.   I subsequently discovered TAT and eventually realised how similar the Yoga Sutras were to the Tao Te Ching and other books.  

Then I discovered Bart Marshall’s ‘Christ Sutras’.   I cried when I read the verses of  Jesus laid out this way.   Suddenly I felt reconnected with my youth and the words of Jesus, and could clearly see how similar these sayings were to other such perennial wisdom.

I related this story to Bart a few years back.   He cried too.  I felt somehow reunited with my childhood faith.   Somehow that small boy knew the truth in the words... that small boy knew somehow that Jesus had had a ‘becoming’ that led him to behave the way he did.    

Jesus didn’t say “I know the Truth”...

He said “I Am the Truth”

Ben 

“For the light of the body is the eye. If, therefore, your eye is single, your whole body is light.” 

Sent from my iPad

On 27 Apr 2021, at 15:45, Paul Rezendes <pho...@paulrezendes.com> wrote:



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[Paul Rezendes]

Ben and Diehards,

Ben, thanks for your email. I hope others chime in as well. It has been quite something to read peoples' experiences with traditional religion. I think it all says something on its own, very eye-opening.

I also had someone else email me privately to explain or to point out how the opposite can happen, in other words: one might be living in a household with friends and acquaintances who have no beliefs systems and when one starts to go into religion, they also could be shunned and pushed out and not accepted, because they are looking into Buddhism, Christianity, enlightenment, etc.

Thanks everyone for your contributions to this dialogue group.

❤️

Paul

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[JIM PETERSON]

Dear Diehards and Paul,

 

I’ve been traveling and haven’t been able to participate in the “religion” thread as I would have liked.  I’ve read all of your contributions to Paul’s question about the influence of religion avidly.  I have been moved by them and learned from them.My own story, it seems to me, will not add much, but who knows. I now see that this is a little long.  So I won't be offended if you decide not to read it.

 

My father’s mother was Jewish, and his father was Baptist.  My father’s mother played piano/organ in the synagogue on Saturday and the church on Sunday.  My father loved and adored his mother.  He fought relentlessly with his father.  When my father’s mother was on her deathbed, she called my father in to speak to her one more time.  She asked him to press his face close to her so she could whisper to him.  She told him to never become a Christian.  She made him promise.  And since he loved her so much, that promise hung over his head for the rest of his life.

 

So my father was ambiguous about religion.  He appeared to me to be basically agnostic.  But I always felt he had more affection for the Jewish people who continued to be a part of his life than he did the Christians.  My father was a successful businessman, and the Christians were pushy, always asking him to donate money for various projects—always trying to get him to accept Jesus as his savior and join the church.  The Jewish people didn’t want anything from him.  They were more welcoming and happy to see him.  I witnessed all of this as a kid.  My mother was a Christian, but not a thoughtful one.  She needed some beliefs to help her feel secure and hopeful, and the church worked in that way for her.  Otherwise, she didn’t really think about it.  But she did make me go to church on Sundays, and to Sunday school, at the Baptist Church where she went.  When I became a little older, I chose the Presbyterian Church because I liked the minister.  But I was never really a Christian in those early days.  I enjoyed some of the Bible stories, but the beliefs about Jesus as the one and only son of God didn’t have much impact on me for a long time.  Sometimes a dramatic rendering of the Crucifixion did get to me emotionally, and that may ultimately have made a difference.  Some Sundays, I weaseled my way into staying home and watched football with my father.  I enjoyed that more.

 

But when I got to high school, I began to question pretty much everything.  I was a pain in the butt.  I became afflicted with questions about the meaning of life, and really the only game in town was Christianity.  Buddhism, Hinduism, Zen, Taoism, philosophy etc. were all far flung mysteries if I had even heard of them at all.  A dynamic young doctor and his wife ran a Young Life Club and I started to attend and they took me under their wing, as they did with many of the kids who were searching for answers. They are still alive and I keep in touch with them.  They were really helpful to me.  They had their evangelical agenda, but they also got me into seeking more purposefully for answers.  They won me over.  I converted and soon became a high school evangelist in my own right, going to youth groups at other churches and talking with them about Jesus.  I was good at it and “won souls for Jesus.”  I was, for a while, one of those self-righteous, evangelical Christians who could see the world only in a very narrow way.  I had an answer for any challenge.  I had to win as many souls as possible because they were going to suffer in hell forever if I didn’t.  It was a duty, a responsibility.  It’s so amazing for me to remember who I was back then, how locked up my mind and heart were.

 

Then I went to college and started a Young Life Club at a big high school there.  After a meeting where I had preached the fundamental message of Jesus as Savior, one of my favorite members came up afterwards and asked, “Do you mean to say that my Jewish mother, who is the most wonderful person in the world, is going to suffer in hell forever because she doesn’t believe in Jesus?”  All I could say was, “Who are we to question the will of God as the Bible shows it to us?  Your mother has time to respond to Jesus.”  He just looked at me for a moment, and then he said, “If that’s what you’re teaching, then I’ll never attend another one of these meetings.”  He turned and walked away and I never saw him again.  That night I went over it in my mind and I remembered how my father felt about his own Jewish mother.  I realized that I didn’t like what I was teaching, and from that point on I began to question my beliefs.  Over the next few years many of my Christian beliefs began to fall away.  They began to feel genuinely insane to me.  I hung on to Jesus as the son of God and the Savior.  Then I stumbled across a book by Krishnamurti, and he truly shocked me out of my Christian trance state.  I was around 20 or 21.I began to read and study Eastern religion and philosophy and really anything I could get my hands on that I thought might help me figure out what was going on.

 

From that point to now, I suspect my story is similar to many of yours.  I’ve had a number of teachers and I’ve read just about everything.  The Christian mystics like Meister Eckhart and St. John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila and others like Richard Rohr have shown me how to once again see the ways that Christianity can be a powerful path for some people.  But I will never go back to belonging to any particular religion.  I was angry at Christianity for a long time because I thought it and its leaders had used “belief” as a way to take control of me.  That’s a little paranoid, but there is some truth to it.  Marx wasn’t far wrong when he said that religion it the opiate of the masses.  And I’m very careful not to make “non-duality” another religion that I follow blindly.  I see that the statements of non-duality teachers can easily become beliefs, underlying assumptions, or “authoritarian principles,” especially if I lose touch with Openness.  Since getting stuck in Christianity for those years, being “unstuck” seems right to me.  I have no religious beliefs, nor do I believe that beliefs are wrong.  The trap is always trying to close on us, it seems.  I suppose the words that work best for me now—and you will be familiar with them—are openness, clarity, compassion.  I am careful about the word “Truth” because it tends to crystallize immediately whatever it is applied to.  “What is” is more direct and visceral to me.  “This.”

 

So that’s it, and it’s too long.  If you haven’t read this, I don’t hold it against you.

 

Much love and gratitude for the Diehards.  Thanks for asking the question, Paul.

 

Jim

 

Paul

I wish I could be like some of you who have come to a place of acceptance and allowing other people to practice their faith happily.  I long for this equanimity. I think I’m still stuck in anger and resentment.  Perhaps it has to do with the immense g uilt and shame I was brought up with?

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[Paul Rezendes]

Jim and Diehards,

Thanks for your input Jim and the input of others here on this thread. I think it really all speaks for itself. 

Truly interesting stories. I know of others out there who haven't spoken who have some really interesting stories themselves. Maybe they will chime in as well.

Thanks, everybody.

Paul 

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[STEVE Simpson]

thanks for firing this up, Paul ! the thread has been very interesting and helpful

s

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From: diehar...@googlegroups.com <diehar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Rezendes <pho...@paulrezendes.com>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 1:46 PM
To: Diehards google <diehar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Religion

 

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[Paul Rezendes]

Good, glad to hear it…

Paul 

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