Diacritice in EditPad Lite sub Vista
muntealb
editorul de text pe care-l socotesc cel mai bun pentru a fi folosit in
loc de Notepad sau Wordpad. Este gratuit si poate lucra cu mai multe
documente pe care le deschide in taburi separate. Insa sub Vista nu
mergea cu unele diacritice, adica sh-ul si tz-ul erau afisate ca semne
de intrebare. Am incercat cu diverse codari (Options » Configure File
Types » Encoding) dar doar cu un singur font, cel pe care-l folosesc
in mod obisnuit, Arial. Asa ca i-am scris autorului softului si cu
ajutorul sfaturilor lui am reusit sa remediez problema si sa aflu cu
aceasta ocazie ca anumite fonturi nu sint bune pentru a afisa
diacriticele romanesti folosite in Vista. Redau mai jos schimbul de
mesaje :
==============================
Munteanu Alexandru Bogdan (MAB)
I have used EditPad Lite as my main text editor for more than a year
and it
is a very good program. However, it is not capable to display some
romanian
language characters. I will attach to this message two images with
the
problem. The characters not being displayed are a special "S" and "T"
that
have both in the romanian language a little comma underneath them
(romanian
uses also the normal "S" and "T" without commas). Of course if I try
to type
them EditPad replaces them with ? .
I am speaking about Windows Vista. The two
characters that are not displayed correctly by EditPad were modified
by
Microsoft in Windows Vista, they differ a little from those used in
Windows
XP (they were wrong in XP) so maybe EditPad does not recognize them.
In Windows XP EditPad works good with romanian language characters
after
setting the correct encoding in "Configure file types".
=============================
Jan Goyvaerts (JG)
I do not understand your explanation. You say that EditPad works
correctly for you on XP but not on Vista. You also say that Windows
XP
itself had a problem with Romanian characters, which Microsoft fixed
in
Vista. This sounds contradictory to me. Also, when I view EditPad
Pro's
character map with the encoding set to Windows 1250, I see the same
characters S with comma and T with comma in XP and in Vista.
Please explain exactly what Microsoft changed. A sample file would
also
be more helpful than screen shots.
If you type or paste text that uses characters not supported by the
code
page you selected with Convert|Text Encoding, then those characters
will
appear as question marks. Changing the encoding after typing/pasting
will
NOT fix the question marks. The original characters were lost. First
change the encoding, then paste.
EditPad Pro's user interface does not support Unicode, but can be set
to
the Windows 1250 code page (or any other Windows code page) upon
translation.
===========================
MAB
OK, I was wrong on the assumption that EditPad Lite (EPL) does not
display
correctly the romanian characters. It does, but half of the problem
remains,
I cannot write with EPL in romanian under Windows Vista. I think this
is a
bug in EPL, but maybe I'm wrong and you could tell me what to do.
The modification made by Microsoft in Vista :
Romanian has the normal S an T characters pronounced like in star
and
tongue, but it has also two special characters, S and T with a little
comma
underneath them that are pronounced "sh" and "tz" respectively, like
in
sheep and tzar (that is romanian does not need two letters for sh and
tz, it
has special letters for them, the modified S and T). But Microsoft has
made
a mistake in Windows (95 through XP) and the modified letters from
romanian
were displayed like they had a cedilla (
http://www.answers.com/topic/cedilla ), not a comma. The comma in the
romanian letters is not attached to S or T, but the cedilla is. So,
the
letters used by MS were not correct for the romanian language (it has
no
letters with cedillas), and they fixed that in Vista.
Under XP I use a third-party romanian language driver for the
keyboard.
With it EPL works perfect, I can write the modified letters and they
are
displayed correctly. This driver was adopted by MS and is now included
in
Vista. With it the modified letters ( â a î s t ) are displayed when
using
the \ [ ] ; ' keys (those symbols can be displayed when using RightAlt
+ the
key). Notice the s with cedilla, that is incorrect because I write
this
message in EPL under XP. The t has a comma underneath, this is
correct.
Let me explain now the big problem with EditPad : One cannot write in
romanian with if it using Vista
Romanian uses the latin alphabet, but has also 5 specific letters that
are
modified letters form the latin alphabet. Three of them (modified
"A",
another modified "A" and modified "I") are displayed correctly with
EPL and
I can write them under Vista, but two (modified "S" and "T") can only
be
displayed, they cannot be written with EPL.
I usually write in romanian, but I cannot write the modified S and T
in
EditPad. I have set in Options»Configure file types the encoding for
"any
file" and "text file" to Windows 1250 : Central European. However,
when I
open EPL and start typing all is in order, except that the modified S
and T
are displayed as question marks. This does not happen in Notepad,
WordPad,
PSPad or AbiWord. Maybe there is some setting that will permit me to
write
in romanian with EPL, I don't know, but I have not set anything in
the
afore-mentionned text editors.
Now the weird part. I have attached a sample file to this message
(the
translation made by me for GreatNews - http://www.curiostudio.com/ ).
If I
open it in EPL it is displayed correctly and when I start typing in
it, I
could type the modified S and T correctly. But if I open a new tab
next to
the translation file the modified S an T are displayed as question
marks.
Why I cannot open a blank file in EPL and start typing and the
modified S
and T would display correctly and not as question marks ? I use the
Romanian
(Standard) keyboard provided by Windows Vista as default (but same
thing
happens if I use English as keyboard default and switch to Romanian).
=========================
JG
I understand now. The reason you can't type S-with-comma or T-with-
comma
when you have selected code page 1250 is that this code page does not
contain those letters. It only contains S-with-cedilla and
T-with-cedilla. Microsoft did not change the code page. They can't,
because doing so would change all S/T-with-cedilla into S/T-with-comma
in
all legacy documents.
To type S/T-with-comma, you will need to use a text encoding that
contains
S/T-with-comma in its character set. You can either use Unicode, or
ISO-8859-16.
A change I can easily make is to make EditPad Pro use S/T-with-cedilla
whenever you type or paste S/T-with-comma into a file using code page
1250. This will give you XP behavior on Vista when using code page
1250.
I noticed that some fonts, like Arial Unicode MS, display S/T-with-
comma
instead of S/T-with-cedilla when EditPad Pro requests a S/T-with-
cedilla
character. So depending on the font you use, you may still see the
correct character (comma), even though the code page represents a
different one (cedilla).
My recommendation, however, would be to use UTF-8 for all your
Romanian
documents. That way you won't get any mixups between comma and
cedilla
versions.
EditPad's user interface can only use the Windows code pages, so we'll
need to select a font that displays S/T-with-comma instead of
S/T-with-cedilla.
============================
MAB
The problem was solved based on your advice.
I use Arial for my writings, so after installing EPL I always set the
font
to Arial. I did this for EPL in Vista but as I said it did not work
with
S/T-with-comma that were displayed as question marks. In your last
message
you said that there may be a problem with the font used or/and the
encoding.
So I set the encoding to UTF-8 and switched the font inside EPL to
Segoe UI,
the new font used by MS in Vista. And it worked, the S/T-with-comma
were
displayed correctly. Now the weird part. I switched back to Arial
inside EPL
and this time it also worked, that is S/T-with-comma were displayed
correctly. I don't know what happened but I can now use Arial inside
EPL
under Vista so all is OK for me. However I noticed that other fonts
(like
Courier) continue to display S/T-with-comma as question marks.
===============================
Eddy Petrișor
Hash: SHA1
muntealb wrote:
> EditPad Lite ( http://www.editpadlite.com/editpadlite.html ) este
> editorul de text pe care-l socotesc cel mai bun pentru a fi folosit in
> loc de Notepad sau Wordpad. Este gratuit si poate lucra cu mai multe
> documente pe care le deschide in taburi separate. Insa sub Vista nu
> mergea cu unele diacritice, adica sh-ul si tz-ul erau afisate ca semne
> de intrebare. Am incercat cu diverse codari (Options » Configure File
> Types » Encoding) dar doar cu un singur font, cel pe care-l folosesc
> in mod obisnuit, Arial. Asa ca i-am scris autorului softului si cu
> ajutorul sfaturilor lui am reusit sa remediez problema si sa aflu cu
> aceasta ocazie ca anumite fonturi nu sint bune pentru a afisa
> diacriticele romanesti folosite in Vista. Redau mai jos schimbul de
> mesaje :
[..]
> I do not understand your explanation. You say that EditPad works
> correctly for you on XP but not on Vista. You also say that Windows
> XP
> itself had a problem with Romanian characters, which Microsoft fixed
> in
> Vista. This sounds contradictory to me. Also, when I view EditPad
> Pro's
> character map with the encoding set to Windows 1250, I see the same
> characters S with comma and T with comma in XP and in Vista.
>
> Please explain exactly what Microsoft changed. A sample file would
> also
> be more helpful than screen shots.
[..]
Data viitoare îţi recomand să le arăţi:
http://debian-l10n-ro.alioth.debian.org/random-bits/Romanian%20diacritics.txt
- --
Regards,
EddyP
=============================================
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein
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muntealb
EditPad.
Problema cu afisarea ş-urilor si ţ-urilor s-a rezolvat in masura in
care acest lucru era posibil cu diferitele codari existente.
====================
Jan Goyvaerts (JG)
I've made the change I mentioned in my previous reply.
I have uploaded a special debug version of EditPad Pro.
I would appreciate if you could download it and let me know if it
allows
you to type S/T-with-comma into files using code page 1250. Remember
that
this code page technically only supports S/T-with-cedilla, so when you
type S/T-with-comma, S/T-with-cedilla may be displayed instead. This
depends on whether the font you're using accurately depicts the
character,
or if it was "fixed" to support Romanian using code page 1250.
Typing into a Unicode text file should correctly show S/T-with-comma.
If
you get a rectangle instead, you need to select another font. Some
fonts
support S/T-with-cedilla but not S/T-with-comma.
To run the debug version, first terminate your copy of EditPad Pro
with
File|Exit. Make sure EditPad Pro's icon is not visible next to the
system
clock. Then extract EditPadProDebug.exe from the .zip file and run
it.
We'll probably release a new version of EditPad Pro on Monday, so it
would
be nice if you could try this over the weekend.
==============================
Munteanu Alexandru Bogdan (MAB)
I have tested the debug edition of EPP.
-Windows Vista :
-Keyboard driver [Romanian (Standard)] that is default under Vista and
is the
best.
-Font Arial
Results :
-Encoding UTF-8 and ISO-8859-16 : when I type I get only S/T-with-
comma, so
it's correct and it's the best option for romanian documents. It works
with
Arial, Verdana, Segoe UI, etc. but not with Courier. By using Courier
one
gets only question marks.
-Encoding Windows 1250 : when I type I get only S/T-with-cedilla, it's
not
correct, it's not the best option, but it can work. (I have tried
with
Arial, Verdana, Segoe UI, the results are the same)
-Encoding ISO-8859-2 : when I type I get only question marks, so it'
the
worst option.
My suggestions :
-There is a problem with the default font in EditPad, namely Courier.
If
someone (let's say a romanian) installs EP and sets the encoding to
UTF-8
but leaves Courier as the font it will not work good in romanian under
Vista
and the person will blame EditPad and not the font. So maybe you
should
change the default font to Arial.
-Some romanians have surely used the encoding ISO-8859-2 for their
documents
and they cannot edit them with EditPad under Vista. Maybe you should
do for
this standard what you did for Windows 1250 so that EditPad could
process
this files (S/T-with-cedilla instead of question marks).
=============================
Jan Goyvaerts
> There is a problem with the default font in EditPad, namely Courier.
On Windows Vista, EditPad uses Consolas as the default font. Consolas
can
display S-with-comma and T-with-comma. It will also display T-with-
comma
when EditPad Pro attempts to draw T-with-cedilla. S-with-cedilla is
displayed when EditPad Pro attempts to draw S-with-cedilla.
(S-with-cedilla is used in Turkish, so I guess Microsoft doesn't want
to
"fix" that one.)
On XP and earlier, EditPad uses Courier New as the default, since
Consolas
is not included with those operating systems.
> Some romanians have surely used the encoding ISO-8859-2 for their
> documents and they cannot edit them with EditPad under Vista.
Thank you for pointing this out. I've made the same change to
ISO-8859-2
to substitute S/T-with-cedilla for S/T-with-comma.
I have also made the opposite change to ISO-8859-16. If you type
S/T-with-cedilla into an ISO-8859-16 file (e.g. using the broken XP
keyboard driver), you'll get S/T-with-comma instead of a question mark
as
in previous versions of EditPad.
The combined result is that if you convert a file from Windows 1250 or
ISO-8859-2 into ISO-8859-16, all S/T-with-cedilla will be
automatically
changed into S/T-with-comma. (In previous versions of EditPad, they'd
be
changed into question marks.)
I've updated the debug version with these two additional changes.
==============================
Munteanu Alexandru Bogdan
I have tested EP Debug Edition under Vista with the 4 encodings
(UTF-8,
ISO-8859-16, Windows 1250, ISO-8859-2) and the 2 drivers (Romanian -
Standard and Romanian - Legacy) that are important for the romanian
language. The modified S/T are displayed as S/T-with-comma (when the
encoding supports it) or S/T-with-cedilla. When an adequate font is
used
there are no more question marks, regardless of the combination
encoding - driver that can be chosen. Of
course the best option remains an adequate font (Arial, Verdana,
etc.),
UTF-8 or ISO-8859-16 encoding and the Romanian-Standard keyboard
driver
(which is the default one), this combination always produces S/T-with-
comma. But the other encodings
also work and there are no more question marks.
The only time when question marks (or rectangles) appear are when
someone uses Courier or
other non-supportive font under Vista. I have tested Courier New and
it
displays correctly S/T-with-comma.
I think all is in order now. Edit Pad is the best text-editor in my
opinion
and now it is fully compatible with the romanian language.
Cristian Secară
> I have uploaded a special debug version of EditPad Pro.
Și unde se află acest upload ?
> -Encoding Windows 1250 : when I type I get only S/T-with-cedilla, it's
> not correct, it's not the best option, but it can work. (I have tried
> with Arial, Verdana, Segoe UI, the results are the same)
Adică cum nu e corect ? Caracterele trebuie să fie afișate cu sedilă
dacă fișierul text este codat CP-1250. Dacă în loc de sedile apare
altceva, înseamnă că nu mai e CP-1250.
La fel și pentru ISO-8859-2.
Cristi
Alexandru Bogdan Munteanu
From: "Cristian Secară" <or...@secarica.ro
> Și unde se află acest upload ?
>
>> -Encoding Windows 1250 : when I type I get only S/T-with-cedilla, it's
>> not correct, it's not the best option, but it can work. (I have tried
>> with Arial, Verdana, Segoe UI, the results are the same)
>
> Adică cum nu e corect ? Caracterele trebuie să fie afișate cu sedilă
> dacă fișierul text este codat CP-1250. Dacă în loc de sedile apare
> altceva, înseamnă că nu mai e CP-1250.
> La fel și pentru ISO-8859-2.
Nu e corect in sensul absolut al afisarii diacriticelor romanesti, adica nu
e cu virgula, ci cu sedila, ar fi trebuit sa fiu mai specific. Oricum JG a
inteles la ce ma refeream, asta se vede din ultimul lui mesaj.
Nu i-am cerut acordul lui JG pentru a posta adresa versiunii respective, asa
ca am sters-o din mesaj.
Am testat versiunea si i-am trimis concluziile mele, pe care le-am publicat
si pe lista. Practic nu am mai avut nici o problema sub Vista sau XP.
JG a scris intr-unul din mesaje ca probabil va scoate luni (adica miine) o
noua editie de EditPad Pro care va contine si modificarile facute ca urmare
a sesizarii mele. Deci o vei putea descarca daca nu luni oricum in cursul
saptaminii viitoare.
P.S. Daca vrei poti sa incerci NoteTab Light (
http://www.notetab.com/ntl.php ), un alt editor bun care mie mi s-a parut
(am testat doar pentru foarte scurt timp) ca sub Vista ar avea acelasi
comportament ca EditPad, adica nu afisa S/T cu virgule.
Cristian Secară
> Nu e corect in sensul absolut al afisarii diacriticelor romanesti,
> adica nu e cu virgula, ci cu sedila, ar fi trebuit sa fiu mai
> specific. Oricum JG a inteles la ce ma refeream, asta se vede din
> ultimul lui mesaj.
Săracu' JG nu ştiu ce a înţeles, sau ce a făcut că n-am cum să probez
acum (la ce foloseşte că ai postat asta dacă nu se poate folosi/testa
la momentul postării ?), dar tu ai afirmat un nonsens. Ai zis aşa:
„Encoding Windows 1250 : when I type I get only S/T-with-cedilla, it's
not correct, [...]”.
Păi dpdv al limbii române stricte fireşte că nu este corect, nici nu
poate fi, şi ar fi incorect să fie altfel. Codarea CP-1250 şi ISO-8859-2
nu satisfac cerinţele limbii române. Dacă el face nu ştiu ce artificiu
ca să fie afişate caracterele corecte dpdv al limbii române atunci când
codarea este CP-1250, foarte rău, înseamnă că violează codarea ca să
zic aşa.
Oricum discuţia de acolo este confuză. Nu este clar când se face
referire la caractere şi când la glife.
Cristi
--
Cristian Secară
http://www.secarica.ro/
Alexandru Bogdan Munteanu
From: "Cristian Secară"> Săracu' JG nu ştiu ce a înţeles, sau ce a făcut că
> acum (la ce foloseşte că ai postat asta dacă nu se poate folosi/testa
> la momentul postării ?), dar tu ai afirmat un nonsens. Ai zis aşa:
> „Encoding Windows 1250 : when I type I get only S/T-with-cedilla, it's
> not correct, [...]”.
> Păi dpdv al limbii române stricte fireşte că nu este corect, nici nu
> poate fi, şi ar fi incorect să fie altfel. Codarea CP-1250 şi ISO-8859-2
> nu satisfac cerinţele limbii române. Dacă el face nu ştiu ce artificiu
> ca să fie afişate caracterele corecte dpdv al limbii române atunci când
> codarea este CP-1250, foarte rău, înseamnă că violează codarea ca să
> zic aşa.
> Oricum discuţia de acolo este confuză. Nu este clar când se face
> referire la caractere şi când la glife.
JG nu a facut nici un artificiu care sa fie impotriva codarilor mai vechi.
Singura chestie pe care a facut-o a fost sa rezolve problema legata de
aparitia unor semne de intrebare sau dreptunghiuri in loc de Ş/Ţ-cu-sedila
in codarile Windows 1250 : Central European si ISO-8859-2. Asta am remarcat
eu sub Vista (draiverul Romanian-Standard), cind tastam Ş/Ţ cu aceste codari
nu imi apareau litere, ci simbolurile mentionate mai sus. In mod evident era
vorba de un bug in EditPad, care din cauza asta nu lucra bine cu acest
draiver. JG a facut in asa fel incit acum imi apar in loc de acest simboluri
literele Ş/Ţ cu sedila, care nu sint corecte in mod absolut, dar sint
utilizabile si deci acum documentele scrise mai demult cu aceste codari pot
fi editate sub Vista in EditPad. Chestia cu simbolurile in loc de Ş/Ţ a
ramas sub Vista doar pentru anumite fonturi (putine de altfel, de ex.
Courier sau Bookman Old Style). Sub codarile UTF-8 si ISO-8859-16 literele
Ş/Ţ sint afisate corect, cu virgulita.
E prima oara cind ma lovesc de asa ceva. Tu te-ai ocupat de aceste chestii
de multa vreme, poate ar trebui sa scrii un mic articol pe situl tau pentru
a semnala situatia. Sint multe editoare de text in uz, iar pentru ca eu
folosesc EditPad am remarcat bugul, dar in mod sigur este prezent si la
altele. Sint aproape sigur ca situatia este intilnita si in NoteTab, daca e
asa poti sa-l contactezi pe autor si sa i-o expui mai coerent decit am
facut-o eu cu JG. Oricum acesta mi-a mai scris un mesaj ieri seara si mi-a
zis ca noua versiune de EditPad va fi lansata in seara asta.
Cristian Secară
> JG a facut in asa fel incit acum imi apar in loc de acest simboluri
> literele Ş/Ţ cu sedila, care nu sint corecte in mod absolut, dar sint
> utilizabile si deci acum documentele scrise mai demult cu aceste
> codari pot fi editate sub Vista in EditPad.
Asta sună ok, dacă la tastarea caracterelor corecte românești programul
forțează introducerea caracterelor corecte pentru codarea curenă a
documentului.
> Chestia cu simbolurile in loc de Ş/Ţ a ramas sub Vista doar pentru
> anumite fonturi (putine de altfel, de ex. Courier sau Bookman Old
> Style).
Courier nu este un font care vine cu Vista și cred că nici Bookman Old
Style. Dacă o iei așa, majoritatea fonturilor existente în lume nu
conține glifele asociate caracterelor ș și ț cu virgule. Abia dacă le
conțineau pe alea cu sedile.
Cele de la Adobe care au sufixul „pro” sunt însă corecte.
Eddy Petrișor
Hash: SHA1
Alexandru Bogdan Munteanu wrote:
> E prima oara cind ma lovesc de asa ceva. Tu te-ai ocupat de aceste
> chestii de multa vreme, poate ar trebui sa scrii un mic articol pe situl
> tau pentru a semnala situatia. Sint multe editoare de text in uz, iar
Vezi primul paragraf:
http://wiki.debian.org/L10N/Romanian/CommaTransition
- --
Regards,
EddyP
=============================================
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein
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Eddy Petrișor
Hash: SHA1
Eddy Petrișor wrote:
> Alexandru Bogdan Munteanu wrote:
>> E prima oara cind ma lovesc de asa ceva. Tu te-ai ocupat de aceste
>> chestii de multa vreme, poate ar trebui sa scrii un mic articol pe situl
>> tau pentru a semnala situatia. Sint multe editoare de text in uz, iar
>
> Vezi primul paragraf:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/L10N/Romanian/CommaTransition
>
M-am apucat să scriu o pagină dedicată acestui scop la
http://wiki.debian.org/L10N/Romanian/I18NIssues
Acum este decât un schelet. Am idei pentru fiecare din întrebările
de acolo, dar nu mă supăr dacă cineva se apucă să adauge informaţii.
- --
Regards,
EddyP
=============================================
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein
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