Meeting this Saturday?

[Madhu Jalan]

Hi folks,

Do we have a Dhriti meeting this Saturday? If so, can we could do it at 4pm? I have a doctor's appointment at 3pm and was hoping to come from there.

Madhu

[Charu Srinivasan]

I have a conflict at 4 pm on Saturday. In general a Sunday meeting may work better for me.

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[sharmin ahmer]

Hi Friends,
I will not be able able to make it this time..as I have some commitments.

Radha plz update me about the date for the workshop so that I arrange the venue for the same.

[Radha Rangarajan]

Dear all,

I am very upset about yet another case of a woman being assaulted last night.  I really do hope she is not too badly injured.  Can we do something for her?

In terms of the self defense workshop content, my action item was to speak to Gayatri about coming to Hyd and doing one workshop together with her.  It turns out that Gayatri is busy till May and can't make it to Hyderabad.  She is doing a course by distance learning and has class all Sundays in March and April.  Plus she has a new dog and until she is potty trained etc she can't travel:-)

We can start working on the content based on the material we have and I will work with Gayatri to make sure I remember all the moves.  We should look at how to update the content, given that the material is 20 years old.  The class is no longer offered at Stanford.  So I am unable to reach out to the instructor, though I have written to someone else asking about resources one can access.

I think one of the strengths of the workshop is the discussion on the "what if" scenarios.  Our first task could be that we compile a list of "what if" scenarios and practise the answers.  After all, there are no absolute answers in any of these situations.  But in thinking through these scenarios, we should be able to assemble a set of strategies that could help women overcome their worst fears.  These strategies can be offered in the workshop to supplement what the participants themselves come up with.  Also, we could create a reading list or a movie list to share in the workshop; we could look for multimedia material that one could use to engage the audience better. 

I am OK to meet on Sunday, from 3-4.  My house is fine, if it works for everybody.  Alternatively, we could start working through email on the content and meet next week.  If we are not meeting this weekend, all of us need to commit to working on some aspect of the content and sharing by email.

-Radha

[Suprajarao]

It is such shame , that the woman had to jump out of the running auto , putting her life at risk to escape a threat to be raped . It is very disturbing . 

Can we do a workshop and gayatri participate on Skype with us ? 

I am ok dis Sunday . 

Supraja Rao

Design house 

www.suprajarao.com

Sent from my iPad

[ranjani nellore]

Hi All, I am OK to meet this Sunday. Ranjani --- On Thu, 2/21/13, Suprajarao <sup...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Charu Srinivasan]

Can we meet at 2 instead of 3. I have music class at 4.

[Usha Vegesna]

Dear All,

 Sunday works for me too. 2 pm or 3 pm is fine. 

Regards,

Usha

---

From: Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>
To: ranjani nellore <ranjani...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Radha Rangarajan <rad...@stanfordalumni.org>; Suprajarao <sup...@gmail.com>; sharmin ahmer <sharmi...@gmail.com>; Madhu Jalan <mja...@gmail.com>; "dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com" <dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:45 PM

[Radha Rangarajan]

OK, Lets do 2 pm at my place.  We should wrap up by 3:30.

Please be on time.

-Radha

[Suprajarao]

2pm is good . 

Supraja Rao

Design house 

www.suprajarao.com

Sent from my iPad

[sharmin ahmer]

Ya its really a shameful incident..let's do our skype call with gayatri..or else as planned earlier lets design our own content..n do a dry run asap.
Plz add me too on skype..

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Tab

[ranjani nellore]

Hi, 2 p.m. Sunday works for me. Ranjani --- On Thu, 2/21/13, Radha Rangarajan <rad...@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:

[S Raju]

Hi All
 
I will not be able to attend the meeting. I will work with charu on putting the content together for the workshop.
 
Thanks
Swarna
 

---

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 19:09:44 -0800
From: ranjani...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Meeting this Saturday?

To: uveg...@yahoo.com; rad...@stanfordalumni.org
CC: charusr...@hotmail.com; sup...@gmail.com; sharmi...@gmail.com; mja...@gmail.com; dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com

[sharmin ahmer]

Hi all,

 

Sorry i will not be able to attend the meeting this time as it's my mother in law's death anniv.I hope u all understand.Please update me if anything required from my side.

If all works fine we can have our first workshop @ my place in raheja mindspace.

 

Sharmin

--
sharmin

[Preethi S Vemu]

All, I did accept the invite , but something has come up in the last minute.

I will not be able to attend this meeting.

 

Sorry about this.

-- Preethi Vemu

The Meal Algorithm

The Green Tea Evenings

The Photo Experiment

 

 

[sharmin ahmer]

Hi all

Important Update:

I have an appointment with my dr this sat morning so i m sorry as may not be able to organise the workshop.
Can we postpone it??

Sharmin

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Tab

[Charu Srinivasan]

The workshop was scheduled for 9 am to 1pm on Sunday. Is that doable?

[sharmin ahmer]

My appntmnt is @ 9 n there are some tests to be done.Wl tk atleast 2-3 hrs.Sorry but this was updated by the dr today so thght of sharing it with u all.

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Tab

[mjalan]

Sharmin - the idea was to have the meeting on Sunday.  Will that work? 

Madhu

Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: sharmin ahmer <sharmi...@gmail.com>
Date:
To: Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>
Cc: Madhu Jalan <mja...@gmail.com>,dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Meeting this Saturday?

[sharmin ahmer]

Ya i can join d mtng after 12pm
N if the training is on sunday than i think that will not be an issue..

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Tab

[Charu Srinivasan]

Confirming that we are having the workshop on Sunday at 9 am at Sharmin's  Raheja mindspace facility.

Sharmin - can you send directions to your place.

Others - please confirm if you can make it

Charu

Sent from my Windows Phone

---

From: sharmin ahmer
Sent: ‎3/‎5/‎2013 11:29 PM
To: mjalan
Cc: dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com; charusr...@hotmail.com

[Radha Rangarajan]

Dear all,

I am not sure I can do Sunday.  I am really sorry.  I have travel coming up and have too many things on my plate.  I had hoped I would be able to put the time aside to do the workshop on Sunday.  But as I work through it in my mind, I realize how much it takes to do the workshop well.  I know we just wanted to get started but I really am not in a shape to take it on.  Unfortunately, I am also unable to do the weekend of the 17th and 24th due to travel and work commitments.  So the earliest I can commit is March 30th/31st.  I know Ranjani is travelling.  Not sure about the rest.  Could you all please consider rescheduling?  

Radha

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Confirming that we are having the workshop on Sunday at 9 am at Sharmin's  Raheja mindspace facility.

Sharmin - can you send directions to your place.

Others - please confirm if you can make it

Charu

Sent from my Windows Phone

---

From: sharmin ahmer
Sent: 3/5/2013 11:29 PM

[Madhu Jalan]

Hi Folks,

I suggest those of us that are working on the content meet anyway for a couple of hours (ppt, videos, scenarios). We can meet for a dry run later in the month. I am out of town the 30/31st weekend, so wont be around. I suspect there may be others who will be out as there are 2 holidays then - holi and good friday.

Madhu

[Charu Srinivasan]

I think that is a great idea - we really need to get the content ready. 
 
I offer to host this meeting at my place at 10 AM on Sunday - we can have a working meeting till noon or so.
 
Madhu - Swarna and I had already started some work on this - we can take a look at the videos you had sent a link to and see how much of that is relevant.
 
I live in Villa 18, Hillridge Villas (second street).
 
Whoever can make this meeting, please do let us know.
 
We can reschedule the workshop dry run to later in the month.
 

---

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 11:18:18 +0530

Subject: Re: Meeting this Saturday?

From: mja...@gmail.com
To: rad...@stanfordalumni.org
CC: charusr...@hotmail.com; sharmi...@gmail.com; dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com

[Usha Vegesna]

Dear All,

 I should be able to make it for the Sunday meeting. See you all on Sunday.

Regards,

Usha

---

From: Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>

To: Madhu Jalan <mja...@gmail.com>; Radha Rangarajan <rad...@stanfordalumni.org>
Cc: sharmin ahmer <sharmi...@gmail.com>; Dhriti Hyderabad Core Group <dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: Meeting this Saturday?

[sharmin ahmer]

Is this meeting open for all or only for the people working on the content..??

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Tab

[Charu Srinivasan]

This is a working meeting for folks working on the content.

[Suprajarao]

Good luck , I'll pass , my daughter will be in town this weekend . 

Supraja Rao

Design house 

www.suprajarao.com

Sent from my iPad

[Nita Sachan]

I'm down with flu, hopefully should recover by then. I would love to join in since I missed the last meeting. However I do not want to spread the virus around. Will see how things are by Sunday,

Regards,

Nita

[Radha Rangarajan]

Dear all,

Here are some thoughts about the workshop.

1) While thinking about the introductory section of the workshop, I think we should talk about what Dhriti is, in addition to why we are doing the self-defense workshop.  This means we really need to get our thinking straight on who we are and what we will do beyond the workshop. It would be good to brainstorm on Sunday about what we want Dhriti to become.

2) On reflecting on the workshop content, I feel that we have not included any component of healing.  For women who have experienced some form of violence and have not found a way to move on, can we help start the healing from fear, guilt and anger?  Fear we are addressing but not guilt and anger.  

One aspect of being stuck in a violent experience from the past is "guilt".  A woman may have been attacked but the attacker has made her feel like she is at fault.  This is particularly true when a woman has been abused by a family member as a child.  Another aspect of guilt is feeling like you could have done more but didn't.  

Maybe we can make some room in the workshop to talk about "coming to terms with attacks from the past" and that really has to do with accepting that you did what you could in that situation, to the best of your abilities.  It also means seeing yourself as a survivor.  It also means sometimes, that you have to confront the person who attacked you. What do you think?  Is this too much? 

3) In terms of the techniques we teach, I think we can incorporate some basic yoga exercises as well.  Ranjani, can you think about this?  In fact, one of the stories I read talked about how the woman who was attacked happened to have done some deep meditation just prior to the attack and she was able to bring the entire focus of her mind to defending herself.  Yoga techniques can help stay calm in tough situations.  Would be worthwhile to include some basic breathing exercises.

4) In addition to the content we cover, we should create a resource sheet for participants to take away with important numbers.  Police women's cell, places where women who feel threatened in their own homes can go, counsellors and other info like that.  Can someone volunteer to to do this? 

5) I recently heard about an App that someone is building that allows you to program in the names of 5 people whom you trust on your phone and if you are in a bad situation, you can press a combination of 2 numbers to send out distress calls to those 5 people.  Has anyone heard about anything available to download?  Perhaps we can tell participants about this.

6) Nita, you told me that you have trained as a self-defense instructor or have taken self-defense classes when you were in grad school.  When you are feeling better, can we meet over lunch and go over the techniques that we have currently planned to include in the workshop.  

7) Usha, please do circulate the logo designs.

I am really sorry about not being able to do Sunday.  I hope you understand.  

Radha

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Suprajarao <sup...@gmail.com> wrote:

[S Raju]

Dear Radha
 
Very nicely thought through and well written, in time for Women's day !
 
Firstly, you shouldn't have to apologise so much. You have put in so much effort and we can see how passionate you are about this. The content group will meet and work on it.
 
Regarding healing, I also feel this is a very important component. Yoga techniques, breathing exercises etc will help. I will talk to a friend who has experience in this field and has designed Yoga workshops etc. I will see if she can help us with some content on this aspect.
 
Regards
Swarna

---

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:48:21 +0530

Subject: Re: Meeting this Saturday?

From: rad...@stanfordalumni.org
To: dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com

[Radha Rangarajan]

Dear friends,

Swarna, thank you!  It is good that we are a support group for each other.  

Please do talk to your friend and let us customize the content with some yoga techniques for strength and calmness.  

In talking to Haimanti yesterday, I realized that we should also include useful information such as where to buy pepper sprays in our resource sheet.

-Radha

[Charu Srinivasan]

Folks - Swarna, Madhu and I met on Sunday to create the “Instructor Manual” for the self-defense workshop.  Please find attached a copy of presentation we have created.  We prioritized getting this done over the course content notes for the participants as we will need this in time for the training workshop.

 

Here is what we suggest as next steps:

 

1. There are specific slides that we expect each person to work on - I have called out Radha, Madhu and Swarna for this.  For the What-Ifs I request Supraja and Madhu to collate the various scenarios we may want to use to seed the discussion. Even though we have called out specific people, please feel free to volunteer either reviewing or producing content.
2. Usha - once you have the logo, please send this across for the title slide. There was also a possibility that we could have you draw stick figures to illustrate a particular move - but this is not a pre-requisite for the instructor manual.
3. Once I get updates from folks, I will update the master copy and send it for reviews. All - please review the slide deck and propose content changes.
4. Radha/Haimanti - can you come up with a cheat sheet on useful information - we should incorporate this as part of the course content notes that we will hand out to participants
5. Workshop date - can we quickly converge on a date for this so we can all rally behind this.

 

Thanks,

Charu

Sent from Windows Mail

[Radha Rangarajan]

Thanks, Charu for the update.  

Were there dates proposed at the meeting?  I had suggested March 30/31.  May not be so good for everyone as it is a long weekend but we could do one run with whoever is around.  If 5 people can do it, we can give it a shot.  What do you think about April 6/7 or April 20/21.

I have found a couple of inspiring INK talks that we could try and use somehow.  Very powerful and distressing.  The first is a performance by a powerful African dramatist telling the story of rape from the perspective of a 8 year old and the second is by Sunitha Krishnan who is a survivor of gang rape and runs a shelter for women and children rescued from prostitution.

http://www.inktalks.com/discover/283/d-bi-young-anitafrika-we-women-are-warriors

http://www.inktalks.com/discover/185/sunitha-krishnan-a-year-after-tedindia

Do watch them.

Radha

[Usha Vegesna]

Dear All,

 Sorry for the delay in designing the logo. Please see attachment, converted the poster into a logo. If everyone is ok with it, than we can go with this design. Do let me know if the font, font size, tag line is ok. In the meantime I will try to design some more. 

Charu..sure I can do the stick figures. Let me know. Thanks

Regards,

Usha

---

From: Radha Rangarajan <rad...@stanfordalumni.org>
To: Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>
Cc: S Raju <sr...@msn.com>; Dhriti Hyderabad Core Group <dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 3:49 PM

[Radha Rangarajan]

Dear Usha,

Thanks!  That is really beautifully done. 

If you have other ideas, please pass them by so we can pick the best.  I think this logo conveys the nurturing side of the organization.  It would be nice to also reflect strength somehow.

A small typo - Dhriti is misspelled at the bottom.  

-Radha

[Charu Srinivasan]

I like the logo - it reminds me of the vigil picture that was a symbolic beginning. 
 

---

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:40:50 -0700
From: uveg...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Meeting this Saturday?

To: rad...@stanfordalumni.org; charusr...@hotmail.com
CC: sr...@msn.com; dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com

[Radha Rangarajan]

Dear all,

I need to know if there is any interest in doing the workshop on the 30th/31st.  Otherwise, let us move it to the weekend after: April 6/7.  Please respond either way.  If other dates were discussed, Charu, please update us.

Charu, Madhu, Swarna, thanks for the ppt.  I have not had a chance to work on it.  But it is good that we are documenting and making notes early on.

Radha

[mjalan]

Wr didn't discuss dates. I can do april 5/6 but not the march weekend. 

Radha

-Radha

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to dhritihyderabadcore

[ranjani nellore]

Dear All, Sorry for being out of the loop with my daughter's board exams and other work-related deadlines. I will out of Hyderabad until 15 April. I hope to join the group and the activities once I return. Sorry, again. Ranjani

--- On Wed, 3/13/13, Radha Rangarajan <rad...@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:

[Charu Srinivasan]

<Drithi1.jpg>

[Charu Srinivasan]

I was wondering if we could use a different image than the candlelight in the Center of the globe. I know it will be hard to converge on this. But if its not too tough to incorporate. Is there any apt imagery for inner strength. Because Dhriti will represent our attempt at connecting women with their innate strength and courage.

[Charu Srinivasan]

April 5/6 weekend works for me as well.

[Suprajarao]

I may be out of town on d weekend of 5th April .

Supraja Rao

Design house 

www.suprajarao.com

Sent from my iPad

[Usha Vegesna]

Dear All,

I do agree about having something more symbolic than the candle in the centre of the logo. 

Did a little research on what we can have that would represent strength. Do look at the attached file. 

I personally like to have the yoga theme. Will try to design something in those lines. Let me know what you think. 

Regards,

Usha

From: Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>

[Charu Srinivasan]

While I love the woman in padmaasana theme, am worried that people may think this is more around yoga. What about the symmetric image you had that has Padmaasana feel to it.

<strength.docx>

[Usha Vegesna]

 Is this the one you are talking about Charu?.....I love the symmetry. This is simple and will be easy to design. I was only wondering whether people will relate this to strength. Anyway...will try this.

---

From: Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>
To: Usha Vegesna <uveg...@yahoo.com>
Cc: mjalan <mja...@gmail.com>; "rad...@stanfordalumni.org" <rad...@stanfordalumni.org>; "dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com" <dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com>; "sr...@msn.com" <sr...@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Symbol for strength

[Usha Vegesna]

Sorry... thought I attached the file....here is the symmetric image

---

From: Usha Vegesna <uveg...@yahoo.com>
To: Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>

Cc: mjalan <mja...@gmail.com>; "rad...@stanfordalumni.org" <rad...@stanfordalumni.org>; "dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com" <dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com>; "sr...@msn.com" <sr...@msn.com>

Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:20 AM

[Usha Vegesna]

Charu...just added the symbol to the logo....sending a draft. Let me know how it looks

---

From: Usha Vegesna <uveg...@yahoo.com>

To: Usha Vegesna <uveg...@yahoo.com>; Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>

Cc: mjalan <mja...@gmail.com>; "rad...@stanfordalumni.org" <rad...@stanfordalumni.org>; "dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com" <dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com>; "sr...@msn.com" <sr...@msn.com>

Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:22 AM

[Charu Srinivasan]

Yes that's the one I was referring to.

Sent from my Windows Phone

---

From: Usha Vegesna
Sent: ‎3/‎17/‎2013 11:23 AM
To: Usha Vegesna; Charu Srinivasan
Cc: mjalan; rad...@stanfordalumni.org; dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com; sr...@msn.com

[mjalan]

Hi Usha - the logo looks really nice. But I agree with you that the strength symbol may be too small and people may not know what it represents. 

Madhu

Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: Usha Vegesna <uveg...@yahoo.com>
Date:
To: Usha Vegesna <uveg...@yahoo.com>,Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>
Cc: mjalan <mja...@gmail.com>,rad...@stanfordalumni.org,dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com,sr...@msn.com
Subject: Re: Symbol for strength

Charu...just added the symbol to the logo....sending a draft. Let me know how it looks

---

From: Usha Vegesna <uveg...@yahoo.com>

To: Usha Vegesna <uveg...@yahoo.com>; Charu Srinivasan <charusr...@hotmail.com>

Cc: mjalan <mja...@gmail.com>; "rad...@stanfordalumni.org" <rad...@stanfordalumni.org>; "dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com" <dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com>; "sr...@msn.com" <sr...@msn.com>

Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:22 AM

[S Raju]

Dear All
 
Regarding the healing component of the workshop, I got in touch with a practising Yoga therapist , Ms. Apoorva, who said she could help us with some material for the PPT. She also offered to volunteer one of her yoga teacher to do a live demo at the workshop. In case that is hard to coordinate, we could also consider including a video clip of the demonstration.
 
Apparently , her group of teachers did a healing workshop for destitute widows in warangal and the response to it was really good. The women felt better after the program.
 
Will coordinate with Apoorva and get the material incorporated in the PPT.
 
Regards
Swarna
 

---

Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:03:48 +0530

Subject: Re: Symbol for strength

From: mja...@gmail.com
To: uveg...@yahoo.com; charusr...@hotmail.com
CC: mja...@gmail.com; rad...@stanfordalumni.org; dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com; sr...@msn.com

[Nita Sachan]

Ladies,

Apologies for the lack of response till now. You all may have discussed these however I thought it would be great to utilize the social media platform to spread some of the awareness. I read this article-
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/20/education/activists-at-colleges-network-to-fight-sexual-assault.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

It seems quite relevant in reaching wider audience faster. An online platform via Facebook etc can reach wider audience which can be promoted at various colleges etc.

1. All the things that we have been discussing like self defense demos can be recorded as videos which can be uploaded onto this secure site, yoga for coping with stress. 

2. Most importantly victims can share their stories and reach out for help. Each local city can create their own online chapters which can meet once month to discuss these issues.

3. Post a list of serial offenders-linked to police database ( not sure if it's possible, it will deter perpetrators)

4. Also listing of laws regarding these issues need to be clearly laid out such that victim knows his/her rights. 

5. Listing of help groups/ support groups.

Radha will be happy to meet over lunch/ coffee to discuss some of the things,

Best

Nita

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[S Raju]

Dear All
 
I have made some changes to the PPT. Anyone adding to the PPT please add to this latest version.
 
Radha, when you get a chance , can you check if we are heading in the right direction with this. Any suggestions can be incorporated. Once I get some material from the Yoga therapist, I will add that to the PPT also. Some excerpts from the mail apoorva sent me - 
 

We can certainly add some yoga-related content to your presentation.

 

1. Yoga can help improve breathing and control over breathing. This helps us also be more aware and in charge of our emotions. So from a healing perspective, this is very valuable. When we breathe deeply and calmly, it helps to release unexpressed emotions that may have gotten stored due to a traumatic experience. Therefore, we can move past painful experiences and free ourselves from the impressions of the trauma.

 

2. Yoga, done with commitment and over time can help us improve our awareness. This not only applies at a physical level, but also at a mental level. So often, when we begin to think "it's my fault" or blame someone else or ourselves, our improved state of awareness can help us identify these thoughts and drop them. Yoga is all about the mind and cleaning/refining the mind in the end.

 

3. Yoga can help us strengthen our state of mind, so in a difficult situation, we can hold ourselves steady and focus.

 

All these can be done with simple asana and breathing practices. Yoga, I believe, can help to strengthen ourselves -- inside and outside.

 

Hope these ideas help. Let me know what the dates are and perhaps, I can come in an give a demo.

----------------------------------------------------

Radha, please let me know to whom the monetary contribution is to be given to. Missed making note of that.

 

Thanks

Swarna

 

 

 

---

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:39:54 +0530

Subject: Re: Meeting this Saturday?
From: rad...@stanfordalumni.org
To: dhritihydera...@googlegroups.com

CC: charusr...@hotmail.com; sr...@msn.com