December thoughts: Santa and so on

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Developing Belief Network

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Dec 4, 2020, 11:52:38 AM12/4/20
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Welcome to all of our new members! Thank you for joining the Developing Belief Network Google group.

We thought we'd kick things off with a few "seasonal" questions related to children's developing beliefs in religious and supernatural agents. It’s officially December, which means that many children in the US and elsewhere are learning the story of Christmas—and perhaps planning for a visit from Santa Claus, flying reindeer, elves, and the like. In many places, traditions related to Santa have caught on even among people who do not celebrate Christmas.

Curious to hear from people here: If you, your child, or someone close to you believed in Santa (and the like), how long did this belief last? How did it change over childhood? What did family members and other community members do to encourage, or discourage this belief? 

And for those whose families did not participate in this tradition: Are there other traditions from your religious and cultural background that are similar? If your family was in the minority—for example, not celebrating Christmas, or not participating in the Santa tradition, in a context where most people did—how did children make sense of the differences between their own beliefs and behaviors and those of their peers?

Scholarly, anecdotal, expert, speculative, and personal comments are all welcome here.

All the best,
Kara & the DBN leadership team

The Developing Belief Network
PIs: Rebekah Richert, Ph.D., & Kathleen Corriveau, Ph.D.

Rebekah Richert

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Dec 4, 2020, 1:54:01 PM12/4/20
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Welcome everyone!

I’ll start us off with an anecdote.

I believed in Santa over the age of 10. 🤦‍♀️ I can point to the reason why easily. One xmas, when I was 5 or 6, we had to drive on Christmas Day to my grandparents house. And Santa knew & put the presents under the tree while we were at church on Christmas Eve. So we opened presents early that year. 

I remember conversations with my siblings & peers over the years who were questioning Santa’s existence. I stuck with it because I couldn’t imagine another explanation for how the presents got there.

Of course, as my mom loaded me & my 3 siblings in the car for Christmas church, my dad went in & quickly put the presents under the tree.

My mom finally told me Santa wasn’t real & explained how it all happened. I think we were both embarrassed by how fully and for how long I thought it was Santa who did those presents... 🤷‍♀️

Fun side note... told that story in a press interview once and in the hour long interview, that was the only thing the journalist reported about me 🤗

Dr. Rebekah Richert
Professor of Psychology
University of California, Riverside

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Emily Gerdin

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Dec 4, 2020, 6:13:51 PM12/4/20
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Hi everyone, 

I'm new to this email group, and very excited to be here!! Thank you for starting this cool, timely conversation. 

Has anyone studied the effects of birth order on children's beliefs about Santa and/or other similar supernatural entities? I'm curious because of my own personal experience. I'm the oldest of four, and while I have no memories of ever believing in Santa or even the Tooth Fairy, I remember always being a part of helping my parents maintain the illusion for my younger siblings. I did things like distract my younger siblings while my parents were wrapping presents, and I felt obligated to lie to my siblings to maintain their belief in Santa. So, based on my own experience, I would hypothesize that first children in a family will stop believing in Santa sooner than subsequent siblings. But I could also imagine that, due to older siblings already no longer believing, maybe younger children would typically be the ones to have shorter "Santa belief spans." 

There are some other things that I know also affected my lack of belief in Santa: I'm half Jewish and went to a Jewish preschool (though I also simultaneously went to church every Sunday, just to make matters really confusing for me, theologically). My siblings, on the other hand, all attended a secular preschool. So I would be really interested in hearing whether my lack-of-Santa belief experience reflects what's typical for first children in a family. 

Best, 
Emily 



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Emily Gerdin
PhD Candidate
Department of Psychology
Yale University


Elizabeth Bonawitz

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Dec 5, 2020, 11:43:04 AM12/5/20
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Dear all,
Great to be part of this new network! Just wanted to briefly share that folks may be very interested in work by Candice Mills, (who has a few projects on this also in collaboration with Thalia Goldstein) on exactly these topics!
Warmly,
Elizabeth

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amanda.tarullo

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Dec 5, 2020, 11:43:07 AM12/5/20
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Hi All,

What a fun topic! My daughter, age 7, still believes in Santa Claus. Last year we saw Santa at a mall and for some reason she concluded he was the one true Santa "because he's so fluffy." This raised a lot of questions for her - did he recognize me from when I was a kid? How could it be that it had been so many years since I was a kid, but he still looked the same age and was still able to walk around? She also concluded that all the other Santas - in movies, the Macy's parade, etc. - are just actors, but she met the real one. She refers back to this experience frequently, every time she sees an impostor Santa, and her older brother has been very kind about reinforcing this belief and expressing jealousy about not having met the real Santa.  She also still believes in Ratoncito Perez (a mouse who is the Spanish version of the tooth fairy). She has logistical questions about how Ratoncito Perez and the tooth fairy share duties and coordinate who goes to which kid's house. But she comes up with complex explanations that satisfy her for now. It seems like she is working really hard to assimilate evidence and make it fit her schemas so she can keep believing.

My son, on the other hand, asked at age 5 why it was that Santa was magic but no other magic was real in the world. I didn't have a convincing answer to that, and he stopped believing shortly thereafter.

Amanda

Laura Taylor

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Dec 5, 2020, 11:43:09 AM12/5/20
to Emily Gerdin, Developing Belief Network
Hi all,

Two anecdotes here: As an only child raised in a largely secular household, I believed in Santa until 10 or so. I happened to find some gifts, while helping tidy up... but pretended I hadnt seen them! Then, only to wake up Xmas morning to those being the very same gifts Santa brought (my parents always wrapped Santa gifts in its own wrapping paper they kept hidden). The gig was up.

And last year, my 2yo was petrified of Santa after a surprise visit at his daycare. He would freak out at the name or image, so Rudolph brought the gifts, and all was well. This year, the 3yo is obsessed, in the good way, with Santa (see attached). Not sure the developmental implication, but a single case longitudinal anecdote. 

Thanks for starting the conversation!
Laura 

--
Laura K. Taylor (PhD)
Lecturer/Assistant Professor
School of Psychology (Newman F212)
University College Dublin
Skype: laura.k.taylor
@lauraktaylorPHD

On 4 Dec 2020, at 11:13 p.m., Emily Gerdin <emily....@yale.edu> wrote:



Tanya Luhrmann

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Dec 5, 2020, 12:49:03 PM12/5/20
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I think there may be something to this. I never believe in Santa Claus, which has no doubt blighted my life. But my younger sisters did, the more intensely as they were later born. Cheers Tanya

HOWARD, JAMIE L.

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Dec 5, 2020, 7:46:41 PM12/5/20
to Tanya Luhrmann, Emily Gerdin, Developing Belief Network
Thanks for this interesting conversation...apologies for the length of this complicated response!

Regarding the birth order question, I am the youngest of 8 and, being of Catholic German/Polish decent, my parents held our celebration of Christmas on Christmas eve, which presents obvious challenges for the secret arrival of Santa. Those of us who were still young enough to believe in Santa were sent to our parents' bedroom, while the older ones helped my parents pull presents out of hiding spots in the attic and put them under the tree. As time went on and there were only two of us left that were made to go into our parents' bedroom, the obviousness of the situation was almost embarrassing. The last time my sister and I were made to go into hiding was a year when a sister just 4 years older than the one in hiding with me got to try her voice by yelling a hearty "ho! ho! ho!" and ended up laughing. The sister with me and I just barged out of the bedroom and said we were tired of the charade. I cannot compare our ages with those at the upper end of the sibling line with regard to their own enlightenment, but I do think we were forced to pretend longer than they were even after realizing the truth.

On a different but slightly related topic, I am interested in the correlation of the propagation and acceptance of belief in Santa (and other Christmas related myths) with that of family dysfunction such as substance abuse, physical or sexual abuse, mental illness and loss/trauma.

In previous research with converts to Islam, I was told often that one main contributor to the conversion was due to the need for structure and discipline in lives that were previously without such a regimen due to the dysfunctions named above. (ie the Qur'an is clear that my behavior should include X and not Y. I am so glad Allah cares and is measuring my deeds because my parents never did) Please pardon the possibly disrespectful leap to Allah to Santa here...recalling this research makes me wonder if the belief in Santa might also be of comfort to those who otherwise don't have a sense of anyone who "sees [them[ when [they're] sleeping," or "knows when [they're] awake." However, I can also imagine that in systems where authority is undermined by dysfunction, perhaps the intrusion of Santa's knowing all and having power to bless or to punish might be just another source of frustration or another place where trust can be broken (ie "I was good but still Santa did not answer my letter, just like my imprisoned dad.")

The flip side of this can be seen in the recent phenomenon of the "Elf on the Shelf." Rather than keeping an eye on children to make sure they are being "good", the Elf is a mischief-maker. If you are not familiar with this practice, the elf is "found" each day having gotten into cookies or indulging in other activities that children normally do, and for which they might get punished. The appeal, I have been told by a friend who did research on this phenomenon, is that the Elf serves to defuse the anxiety of the seasonal question ("Have I been good enough to get presents?") by allowing the children to vicariously experience mischief and laugh about it. Again, please forgive any disrespect about the upcoming comparison... Practicing the Elf tradition brings to mind research that I have done with Hindus in the Chicagoland area who shared regularly about their love for Krishna in child form. "He is so cute!" they told me..."See how he eats the curd without permission!" They went on to tell me that his mischief provided a sense of being known in their own mischievous parts. They assured me that it was a huge relief to have a god that did not create pressure to be something perfect, but was playful and fully connected to their human experience. If a person is raised in a fair bit of chaotic dysfunction, I wonder how a tradition that includes a chaos maker like the Elf, or a god that misbehaves like Krishna might make belief either comforting/familiar or if it would make belief difficult because of a need/desire for stability and predictability.

Thanks for starting this interesting flow of shared thought...
From: developi...@googlegroups.com <developi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tanya Luhrmann <luhr...@stanford.edu>
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Subject: Re: December thoughts: Santa and so on
 
 
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Mills, Candice

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Dec 5, 2020, 7:46:44 PM12/5/20
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Hello all,

Thanks for inviting me to be a part of this network! Elizabeth Bonawitz mentioned that I have some ongoing research projects related to Santa Claus, so I thought I'd chime in.

Last year, I noticed a few pop articles about children's beliefs in Santa. There was one on NPR's website that claimed that "when the jig is up", parents will know, and they should come clean with kids when that happens. I was thrown off by the idea that parents will magically know when it is time to change the way they respond to children's answers, and when I asked around to my friends, I heard a lot of mixed feelings about how they approached that transition. Here's the NPR article:

It made me wonder what we really understand about how children come to realize that Santa is a fictional being. So Thalia Goldstein and I teamed up for a project in which we interviewed children who had stopped believing in Santa to understand more about that process. Interestingly, although we did talk with around 50 kids, it wasn't easy to find families to participate - a lot of parents would report not knowing if their kids thought Santa was real or not. So we also conducted a much larger survey study with adults asking them to recall their memories about Santa, including when and how they came to recognize Santa was not one real being. We've finished coding both data sets and will analyze them in the next couple of months.

Just a couple weeks ago, we started a new project just for parents about Santa. For this project, parents are completing brief surveys texted to them 8 times during the month of December to share Santa-related activities and conversations. In a final survey in January, we will ask them if their child has shifted from believing in Santa to no longer believing this holiday season, and if so, we will offer them a chance to participate in our interview. I'm guessing we won't get many children who officially become skeptics this season, but if we do, it'll be interesting to have this kind of data about how the transition happened. More broadly, though, we're excited to have some data on the kinds of questions children of different ages ask during this season, as well as how parents respond to those questions. It's still very early on in this project, but we'll post updates here when we have them:

Related to Emily's questions about sibling effects on Santa beliefs, anecdotally, I can say in our adult recall data set, a number of people reported learning that Santa was not real through testimony from others, sometimes siblings. Some siblings keep secrets better than others. 😉 We'll dig in over these next couple months and I'll share what we find!

Best,
Candice

Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2020 11:05 AM

To: Emily Gerdin <emily....@yale.edu>
Cc: Developing Belief Network <developi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: December thoughts: Santa and so on

Emily Gerdin

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Dec 7, 2020, 2:06:07 PM12/7/20
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Thank you to everyone who commented on my question! Candice, it sounds like your adult recall data may speak to the question re: effects of birth order. Did you ask adults about their number of siblings/birth order? I'm so excited to hear what you find in the future! 

Best, 
Emily 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/developingbelief/SJ0PR01MB6238AC566E3774F8840BFE4488F00%40SJ0PR01MB6238.prod.exchangelabs.com.

Tamar Kushnir

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Dec 7, 2020, 2:06:16 PM12/7/20
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Hi Everyone,

Such a cool discussion! I don’t have anything scientific to add, just an anecdote. This thread brings up some childhood feelings of having been left out of the collective imagination of what I then viewed as typical American families.   I wonder if this story just sounds like a “we had to walk uphill both ways in the snow” childhood tale. But this was Corvallis, Oregon circa 1980. I think things may be very different for kids nowadays, in some parts of the US, but maybe not so different in others. Maybe some of the new research you are all working on will tell us more!

I immigrated to the US with my parents on Christmas Day of my 5th year of life (Christmas being the time non-observers like us could travel at a discount). The next Christmas (or the one after, I can’t remember, I was somewhere between ages 5 - 7 years by then), we had cultural “exchange” with an American family - we went over to their house to enjoy tree decorating and Christmas cookies, and they came to ours to like a menorah. My parents called them “Christians” - though we know now that they were Oregon hippie-atheists with holiday traditions that were essentially devoid of religious content. Back then, my young immigrant parents didn’t really understand the difference. After all (as my dad used to say) “Christ” was in the holiday name! 

In any case, my kind parents, in what I imagine to be a conversation intended to make me feel better, took me aside before the visit and let me know that there was this guy called “Santa” that their friends daughter (who later became my bestie, and was also somewhere between the ages of 5-7) would be talking about. They explained to me that Santa wasn’t “real” but that I should keep that secret to myself, because it would upset her greatly if she knew. But, they assured me, there was no such character whose sole purpose was to gift Christian children and exclude Jews. 

In Montessori school around the same time, we we learned about Santa and also his originator, St. Nikolas, and his tendency to leave coal in the shoes of “bad” children. It also meant that I was exposed to a few different ways of celebrating Christmas (Scandinavian and American). We also learned about only one kind of Jewish Hanukah, which, for American Jewish children, seemed to be about miracles and presents. Once again, this was a totally foreign concept for my dear parents, who had never given nor received gifts at Hanukah before and now had to scramble so as not to make their kids feel left out. We therefore began to receive gifts - eight days worth of warm socks and new books. None of which were from Santa.

Yes, I felt a bit excluded. To mitigate the hurt, I remember having worked on a framing for myself whereby I was the “smart” one and my American friends were foolish for believing in something so clearly false. I was also pretty happy that “we Jews” didn’t have anyone leaving lumps of coal in our shoes for our sins. I hoped I had dodged a bullet by being born different, or by having parents who were more pragmatic, or something along those lines.

It was small comfort, though, because the holiday seemed full of warmth, light, and magic. And I took every chance to participate each year with my friend and her family. All were things I craved, and missed, on leaving Israel and my loving grandparents, aunts, uncles and the rest of my extended family behind.

Years later I started dating and then married a non-Jew, non-christian American guy whose mother made me feel part of the magic. Her kids were all adults by then (except the youngest, who was 10), but Santa still brought presents for everyone. Half of each of the gifts under the tree - Christmas, 1993 - were randomly labeled “from Santa.” And that included gifts for me! 

Because of my in-laws, my kids get to have it all. They are older now, but when they were little I kept the secret from them, too, just to make sure they felt included.

Happy holidays to you all, however you celebrate,

Tamar :)

Tamar Kushnir
Associate Professor
Human Development
Co-Director, Cognitive Science @ Cornell
Beebe Hall
110 Arboretum Rd
Cornell University
Ithaca, NY 14850
tk...@cornell.edu
Faculty Page: http://www.human.cornell.edu/bio.cfm?netid=tk397
Early Childhoood Cognition Lab: http://www.ecclabcornell.com/



Lucas Payne Butler

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Dec 9, 2020, 11:35:10 AM12/9/20
to Tamar Kushnir, Mills, Candice, Developing Belief Network
Hi all,

What a wonderful thread, and thanks for inviting me to be a part of this discussion!

I'll share a couple anecdotes/thoughts, and an observation of our own children that could be interesting to ponder. 

First, when I was about 8 or so, I had the following conversation with my dad (he loves to tell this story on me):

8-year-old me: "You know that I know that Santa isn't real, right?" 
Dad: "I had a feeling that might be happening soon, yeah"
Me: "But I know that it's really important to Mommy, right."
Dad: "Yeah, that's true, she really loves Santa." 
Me: "Okay, so don't tell her I don't believe anymore. I think that would make her sad."

So there's this interesting shared fiction in which we get pleasure out of jointly pretending, even when none of us believe it. This continued until a few years ago--my dad would write a "Santa letter" each year to me and my brother, telling us all the things he was proud of us for, and signing it Santa. One year he got in trouble for trying to type it instead of write it in handwriting that looked suspiciously like his own. 

This is somewhat related to an idea that I've always found kind of nice and read about once, where the response to a child who has figured out that Santa doesn't exist, to tell the child that it's not that Santa isn't real, but he's not a person, he's all of us. We are all Santa, and it's our job to keep the magic going for the younger kids who still believe. It didn't click for our kids, but maybe it will with their baby brother. 

Finally, an observation about the belief change around Santa. Our older boys (8 and 6) have definitely started to be pretty clear on the notion that Santa doesn't exist, the older one especially. But what's funny is there seems to be a disconnect where if they're not really thinking about it, they seem to almost "forget" that they've figured that out. They start talking about Santa and what he'll bring them and where he lives, etc., and it doesn't seem like they're pretending, it's like they have forgotten that that's a pretend world separate from our own. I think by now they mostly are past it, but it's like there was an intermediate stage where they sort of sometimes had made the shift to thinking Santa was not real and sometimes didn't remember they had figured that out. 

Anyway, I hope you all are weathering the end of this crazy semester. Take care!

Luke
_________________________________
Lucas Payne Butler 
Assistant Professor
Department of Human Development & Quantitative Methodology
University of Maryland
3942 Campus Drive 
College Park, MD 20742

Lab Website: cogdevlab.umd.edu
Personal Website: www.lucaspbutler.com



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Kara Weisman

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Dec 9, 2020, 11:36:19 AM12/9/20
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Sounds like I lucked out in the way Tamar's kids did -- my mom's family celebrated Christmas to the max, leaving out cookies for Santa and carrots for the reindeer on Christmas eve (each of which would have bites taken out of it in the morning), hanging stockings that were empty when we went to bed and bursting in the morning, presents wrapped in special wrapping paper appearing under the tree overnight.  Grandparents, aunts, and uncles all participated in sustaining these beliefs (I was the oldest grandchild, so there were no older cousins to either help or hinder).  My dad, who is Jewish, just didn't participate -- but I don't remember finding this strange or noteworthy.  Christmas and Easter were Christian things and Hanukkah and Passover were Jewish things and I didn't really find that troubling or puzzling.  

Strangely I have absolutely no memory of learning that Santa wasn't real.  I vaguely remember effortfully converting my belief in Santa into a belief in the "spirit of Santa" -- some more abstract kind of human-made good will -- which sounds like something my mom might have said to comfort me.  I remember when my younger sister found out (she immediately extended the realization to the Tooth Fairy and Easter and was ANGRY), and I remember an extended period in which the whole family wasn't sure whether my youngest cousin still believed or not and so had to keep up all the traditions even when we weren't sure whether they were "needed."  I also remember a period of time in elementary school (which was nearly 100% Christian, other than me) when some kids believed and others didn't, and how I thought kids who spoiled Santa for the still-believers were very mean.  

Now, as a parent to an 18-month-old, I have no idea what our Christmas traditions will be...  I love the idea of child-like wonder and magic, and I am really enjoying the first hints of pretend play, which have just started emerging.  But I also find it kind of uncomfortable (so far) to engage in "pretend" in a one-sided way, with him not knowing that I'm pretending.  It feels slightly different to me than other traditions I'm familiar with (e.g., leaving a door open for Elijah at the Passover Seder; wishing on a star) -- which in my experience have always been presented more like metaphors and rituals from the get-go, rather than extended and elaborate make-believe.  Maybe I'm the only one to struggle with this as a parent -- neither my husband nor my mom seems to feel this way.  And in a couple of years you'll probably find me taking bites out of carrots and stuffing stockings in the wee hours anyway... 

Ho ho ho,
Kara

Sobel, David

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Dec 9, 2020, 1:57:04 PM12/9/20
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Fun thread. 

So, I was raised Jewish. I never believed in Santa growing up, so I literally have no childhood memories to share. I married an atheist, but she loves Christmas beyond measure, so we still perpetuate the Santa myth, even though our kids (11 and 9) clearly state that they no longer believe in Santa. We still do cookies, milk, and carrots for the reindeer (Lisa eats the cookies. I drink the milk and eat the carrots). When the kids were little, we would sprinkle flour from the chimney to the tree, and I would walk in it to represent footprints. 

My daughter (11) very clearly indicates that Santa isn't real. My son (9) hedges occasionally when he is not with his sister. When they are together, however, he often equates Santa not being real to the fact that last Easter, he saw me hide the Easter eggs in our backyard. So, by inference, if Dad is the Easter Bunny, it's likely that Mom and Dad are Santa (and the Tooth Fairy) as well.

-Dave

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--
Dave Sobel
Professor, Department of Cognitive, Linguistic and Psychological Sciences
Brown University, Box 1821
Providence, RI 02912
Office: Metcalf 238
Office Hours: On Sabbatical until Summer 2021

Jonathan F. Kominsky

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Dec 9, 2020, 1:57:10 PM12/9/20
to Kara Weisman, Developing Belief Network
Hi all,

What a fun discussion! My family's religious practice exists on a spectrum from secular Jewish to Reform Jewish, but Christmas was and is still an event on my mother's side because it was when everyone was free. My mother's side is a big family and mostly in academia or medicine, so finding any time that more than half of us were available was an accomplishment. Santa was part of the proceedings, though in terms of presents only the stockings were considered filled from "Santa", all sizable presents were from family members.

On that side of my family I have five first cousins, and the six of us were all born in the space of five years, 1984-1989. I'm in the middle, there are two cousins younger than me and three older than me. We saw each other frequently enough that we are very close-knit, and formed a "cousin's club" with a surprisingly well-developed organizational structure (with positions dictated by age).

Every thanksgiving and Christmas from when I was about 4 until I was about 11 we would all have a big sleepover at my aunt's house. I don't remember when it started (so probably on the early end), but somewhere in the early part of that span we decided that we would make it our mission to empirically test the existence of "Santa", which largely meant setting little traps. (This may give you an idea of the general disposition and activities of the cousins' club.)

I remember spending a lot of time talking about it with my cousins but only a few specific things we tried. The strongest memory is laying down either flour or cornmeal in the (otherwise generally unused) fireplace of my aunt's house and checking for boot-prints, and when we found them, then seeing if the boot-prints matched any of the boots of our parents, uncles, and aunts that we could find in the house (the adults, being used to us at this point, had hidden the boots they used for this well enough that we didn't find them that year). Things like that went on until I was about 8 or 9, when we decided to sleep in shifts and enough of us were old enough to sneak out and get a look at the living room at 1am undetected, and we spotted our parents filling the stockings. I don't think any of us were particularly upset about that part, but I do remember being vaguely disappointed we wouldn't need to keep plotting increasingly elaborate traps every year.

So maybe not the most traditional or representative Santa experience, but certainly one that involved engaging with the myth. We thought carefully about the mechanics of the Santa myth, and I do remember things like the adults vetoing us checking the roof for reindeer prints one year when it happened to snow. I think that it's interesting to consider how many kids might take the physical mechanics of the Santa mythos literally and at what age, but it would also be interesting to know how many kids feel driven to actually test them.

Jonathan

Kara Weisman wrote on 12/9/20 11:34 AM:

Lisa A Chalik

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Dec 9, 2020, 2:40:50 PM12/9/20
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Hi, everyone! Reading everyone's stories in this thread has been both scientifically fascinating and personally quite fun. I have one quick anecdote that I don’t think has been reflected yet…

I grew up in a strongly Jewishly-identified family - my brothers and I went to Jewish schools, we were active in our synagogue, kept kosher, etc. So even though I was fully aware of the existence of Christianity and its customs, my social sphere included very few non-Jews, and interactions with anyone who actually celebrated Christmas were very rare experiences. I thought of Santa pretty similarly to how I thought of the tooth fairy—someone that some people pretend is there, but that we all know isn’t actually real. I do, however, remember one occasion when I was probably around 7 or 8. I was with a friend who was also Jewish and from a family similar to mine, and she confided in me that she believed in Santa. She knew that he would never come to her house, because he only brought presents to Christian kids, but she did believe that he was real. And I remember thinking, “Wait. She really believes that? Okay, well, I better not ruin it for her.”

I have no idea how widespread is the phenomenon of non-Christian kids believing in Santa, especially when they don’t interact with any other aspects of Christmas or Christian culture, but apparently, it does happen.

Wishing a happy and healthy holiday season to all!

Lisa

---
Lisa Chalik
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Yeshiva University
Stern College for Women

On Dec 9, 2020, at 12:11 PM, Jonathan F. Kominsky <jonathan....@gmail.com> wrote:

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Eleanor Chestnut

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Dec 9, 2020, 3:02:24 PM12/9/20
to Jonathan F. Kominsky, Kara Weisman, Developing Belief Network
I also love this thread!  Just chiming in to say that as a fellow Jew (my mother is Jewish and my dad couldn't care less about religion, though he supported my brother's and my Jewish upbringing), I don't recall having any beliefs like this at all, or worrying about my friends' beliefs in Santa.  Instead, I remember thinking, of course this isn't real, but this is what Christians do.  I grew up in a town with a relatively strong Jewish population (in NJ), but also with a strong population of people who loved decorating their homes for the holidays, and my main Christmas memory is of driving through town in December and pointing out houses that were "Jewish" or "Christian" based on whether they had Christmas lights.  (My early understanding of religion was pretty crude.)

I also have a toddler - a 17-month-old - and I can definitely imagine playing up things like the Tooth Fairy for him when he's older.  But I see it being more like "we both know this isn't real, but it's funny to pretend that it is".  Maybe, like Kara, I'm mistaken and I'll end up being more committed... but since my parents never entertained anything like this (other than my dad's foray into parapsychology in the 1970s), I'll probably be similar.

Ellie



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Clare Conry-Murray

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Dec 9, 2020, 4:18:52 PM12/9/20
to Eleanor Chestnut, Jonathan F. Kominsky, Kara Weisman, Developing Belief Network
Interesting discussion.  Like Ellie, I have tried to make Santa kind of like the tooth fairy--where we all know he's not real, but it's still fun.  My aunt, who is Christian, didn't tell her kids too much about Santa because she didn't want to lie to them.  I'm not sure there are any harmful aspects of encouraging a belief in Santa, but I thought it was an interesting point. I took the approach of making it easy for my kids to tell that Santa wasn't real.  I used the same wrapping paper, and just never really made much effort to make him seem real.  Now that they're teenagers, I only use Santa when I want to give them socks and underwear for Christmas, so I don't have to look like the bad guy.  :)
Clare

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Tamer Amin

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Dec 14, 2020, 10:31:31 AM12/14/20
to Developing Belief Network

Thanks for all the reflections and memories on this wonderful thread.

 

I grew up in Cairo primarily. My mother is English (born into a Christian family) and my father Egyptian (born into a Muslim family); but neither of my parents were religious. We did celebrate Christmas though; this was part of my mother's upbringing and she made sure that Christmas was a big deal for us growing up. She moved to Cairo with my father right after they got married in 1964 and I think Christmas was important for her given the culture shock she initially experienced moving to Cairo. So, we had a tree, decorated it carefully, exchanged presents. There was always one present for each of us from Santa and he filled our stockings on Christmas Eve. The strongest and most joyful memories I have of Christmas as a child was waking up on Christmas morning feeling the weight and hearing the rustle of a filled stocking at the end of my bed. I certainly did believe in Santa, but I have no recollection of the moment or reason that I stopped believing.

 

I did a little poll of some family members over the last few days about their own beliefs and their children's in Santa. It was quite common for adults in the family not to remember a particular turning point. A couple commented on it being a "gradual thing". Two who could report a more precise moment remembered learning that Santa didn't exist at school. In the case of my wife's niece (growing up in Lebanon), she learned that Santa doesn’t exist a few years ago, when she was 9, when a teacher of hers at school simply asked the class: "So kids, when did you stop believing in Santa Claus?" She was quite a upset and went home and told her mother that she now knew the truth. Her mother reports that they both cried.

 

I find the gradualness of the change or the lack of recollection of a precise moment or reason that we no longer believed in Santa that many report quite interesting. A number of people said things like "I think I pretended for a while; maybe even to myself."  In contrast, both my brother and I have very clear recollections of either a particular moment or reason why we stopped or declared that we didn't believe in God. We both remember a logical argument of some kind where there was some contradiction that was just too compelling. I remember this happened with me at the age of 14; my brother said that it was clear to him much earlier than that. 

 

Our parents were very deliberate about not telling us that they didn't believe in God. They would tell us: we'll talk about when you're 15. But we were exposed to Christmas without any religious content through my mother; and my father took us to the neighborhood mosque two or three times to attend morning prayer for Eid Al-Adha; he wanted us to have this experience; there's a particular chant that is practiced before the actual prayer that was quite captivating and my brother and I both remember it very fondly. My brother tells me now that he really wondered why we didn't go more often and felt he was really missing out on something important (even though he says he never remembers a time when he believed in God). 

 

Tamer 

Harris, Paul Lansley

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Dec 14, 2020, 11:38:18 AM12/14/20
to Developing Belief Network

Thanks to Bekah for starting this thread and for the many fascinating contributions.

I don’t recall how I lost my faith in SC (it’s quite a while ago) but I do remember an interesting discussion with Andrew Shtulman on that theme. He emphasized children’s growing causal doubts about how SC managed his delivery system whereas I emphasized the increasing likelihood with age that children will encounter a skeptic – a dismissive sibling, or peer, or teacher. But the various comments suggest that there may be something to combining both ideas: i.e., as children get older, their increasing causal doubts make them more receptive to the explanations offered by skeptics.  The former factor might help to explain steadily growing doubts and the latter more abrupt shifts from belief to doubt – each highlighted by Tamer below.

 

Best, Paul

Tanya Luhrmann

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Dec 14, 2020, 12:02:47 PM12/14/20
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I have to say that the delivery system always posed a problem for me. (Does Amazon make instant delivery more or less plausible?) I remember being also more skeptical about a reindeer with an electric light bulb on his nose than a talking reindeer. 

Is there a good way to characterize the within-frame suspension of disbelief? I’ve tried to do that by talking about a paracosm with rules (for people of faith), but is there a systematic model in cognitive/developmental science about believability, outside of the testimony issue? (I like Paul’s characterization here.) Pascal Boyer talks about minimally counterintuitive beliefs—a person is more likely to believe in the spirits/supernatural if the spirit/supernatural is presented as normal, with a memorable tweak. Yes on the talking reindeer, no on the talking reindeer with a lightbulb nose, no on a god that exists only on Tuesday afternoons. Are there other models? 

To me there are two issues here—what makes the story compelling in its own terms (a good or bad story), and how the story is cognitively held (fiction or truth). 

Here’s to Christmas movies, Tanya

Meltem Yucel

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Dec 14, 2020, 2:31:31 PM12/14/20
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Hi all, 

Happy to be a part of this conversation! I'm originally from Turkey, and I was raised by Muslim parents in a majority-Muslim country. So we never actually believed in Santa Claus or magically appearing gifts. Interestingly, even though Santa Claus is not a part of our religion, we do believe that St. Nicholas existed, who is argued to be from what is now modern Turkey. 

I thought it might be interesting to share the belief discrepancy in a Muslim country between Santa Claus vs. the Saint that inspired the character. 

Happy holidays!

Cheers,
Meltem


Meltem Yucel,
Ph.D. Candidate, University of Virginia, Early Social Development Lab
Research Affiliate Intern, Cornell University, Early Childhood Cognition Lab
Student Affiliate, UNC-Chapel Hill, Center for the Science of Moral Understanding
Web  |  Twitter

Meltem Yucel

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Dec 14, 2020, 3:37:43 PM12/14/20
to developi...@googlegroups.com
Hi all, 

Happy to be a part of this conversation! I'm originally from Turkey, and I was raised by Muslim parents in a majority-Muslim country. So we never actually believed in Santa Claus or magically appearing gifts. Interestingly, even though Santa Claus is not a part of our religion, we do believe that St. Nicholas existed, who is argued to be from what is now modern Turkey. 

I thought it might be interesting to share the belief discrepancy between Santa Claus vs. the Saint that inspired the character. 

Happy holidays!

Cheers,
Meltem


Meltem Yucel,
Ph.D. Candidate, University of Virginia, Early Social Development Lab
Research Affiliate Intern, Cornell University, Early Childhood Cognition Lab
Student Affiliate, UNC-Chapel Hill, Center for the Science of Moral Understanding
Web  |  Twitter

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Carole Meyer-Rieth

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Dec 14, 2020, 4:59:20 PM12/14/20
to Developing Belief Network
Hi Everyone, 

I've enjoyed reading this discussion!  I grew up in a family with a non-practicing Catholic father (8th generation Californian with French and Spanish heritage) and an atheist mother (an immigrant from Switzerland).  Christmas and Easter were the only occasions that my father took my sister and me to the Catholic church, and I remember enjoying Mass except for my mother's insistence that I had to wear pantyhose!  In our Swiss-American family, we opened presents on Christmas Eve and Santa filled the stockings, which we opened on Christmas morning.  I caught on at an early age about Santa Claus, but I was not upset because my parents said that now I was old enough to fill my sister's stocking as long as I didn't tell her...and I got to eat Santa's cookies, drink the milk, and take a bite of Rudoph's carrot!  Our family had multiple "Santa occasions."  We celebrated St. Nicholas' day on December 6th, which was actually the most magical Santa Claus experience to me as a child because it was clear that there was no way that my parents were the ones who had left the wooden switches by our front door (thanks to our neighbors, it turned out)!  The switches had chocolates and little toys tied on them, and were never empty.  My mom told me stories of growing up in Switzerland, how Santa would indeed leave empty switches for bad boys or girls.  She remembers being terrified one year as a little girl when "Samiclaus" showed up with his large sack and gave presents to everyone in her family except her big brother.  Samiclaus insisted that he was going to take her big brother away and made him get in the sack, pretending to pull it up around him while my mother was in tears.  Eventually, she was comforted, her big brother remained at home and was given a present and a warning to be good.  As I was growing up, my mother would take us to local Swiss community Christmas parties (again with the pantyhose!) and one of the adults would dress up as Santa Claus.  All the children would gather around and be led in a Christmas carol so that Santa would come, and in he walked with bells jingling and a large book.  One of the Swiss moms would pull up a large box of stockings next to him that we knew were for all of us....but first, what did Santa's book say about us?  Inevitably, the list of things that we could improve upon was longer than what we had done well, or at least it felt that way as a child when my faults were read out loud to a room of adults and children whom I barely knew!  Some parents would make their child perform a song or a poem for Santa, which made the adults fawn over how wonderful that child was; my sister and I refused to do it.  As an adult now with children of my own, we still attend the Swiss Christmas party, but every year (except 2020!) I have had to revisit the conversation with my mother that I will NOT give Santa a list of my children's shortcomings, that this is not how I want to address their shortcomings with them in front of a room of strangers because I feel it is humiliating to a child, but I will give him a list of positive things to say.  The first year that I did this, the man who played Santa Claus and the woman who was the President of the local Swiss society took me aside and chastised me for not acknowledging that my children are not perfect, that I MUST tell him something that they should do better, but I absolutely refused to be pressured into it.  In summary, my children are well aware that no one in our family is perfect, and my daughter has never worn pantyhose. :)  My husband is a pastor and we are in the sixth year of our church plant; we celebrate Christmas and Santa brings the stockings on Christmas morning, but maintaining the Santa story was not vital to me - it has always been just for fun.  We used the same wrapping paper for Santa's presents in the stockings so the kids could figure it on their own.  I also didn't want our kids to lump Jesus in with the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus, so if they ever asked me if Santa was real, I just asked them a question like, "What do you think?" "or said, "If you want to know, I will tell you."  They said, "no, don't tell me," until one day my son said, "Yes. Yes, I really want you to tell me."  We had a conversation about it and he was not upset, he had suspected it anyway.  Our daughter was about five when she realized that the Easter Bunny's footprints outside were made with powdered sugar, and if the Easter Bunny wasn't "real," then Santa.... And she wasn't upset either, but just went along with it because it was fun.  Our kids have, however, always received a letter in their stockings from their specially assigned elf, which I have written in gold or silver on stationary for them every year.  The elf tells them a story about a polar bear getting into the candy cane factory or some other event and is always proud of being assigned as their elf to select items for the stocking (both kids casually mention every year before Christmas Eve that they want "Tuck" and "Minty" again, as other elves have tried to sub in before).  We keep all the elf letters in a box by the fireplace during Christmas, and our kids re-read them every year.  On Christmas Eve, we celebrate with my parents (and sister and niece, if they can fly in) with a fondue bourguignon and we light real candles on the tree (with a fire extinguisher nearby).  We open Christmas stockings at our house (just the four of us) on Christmas morning, then have a Christmas meal at our house with the extended family (including my parents).  Sorry, long entry, but there is a lot to say around this topic in my family!

Mona M AboZena

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Dec 15, 2020, 2:08:15 PM12/15/20
to Meltem Yucel, developi...@googlegroups.com
Hello,

Thanks for this fascinating auto-ethnographic way for us to learn more about one another and explore ways that we as children and others (perhaps including our own children) acquire beliefs about religion and the range of figures in varying forms we are invited to “believe” in.

I grew up as an Egyptian-American and Muslim daughter of immigrants in a small town in Iowa. Looking back now, I appreciate that my parents were likely navigating a considerable amount of acculturation related stress in addition to the general parenting pressures. Despite having a picture of myself sitting on Santa’s lap at our mall, I recall being told that we do not believe in Santa (and that this was among the proof that Islam was correct as surely there could not be so many Santas on TV and in stores). I must have been convinced of this because one of the few times I got in trouble as a child was in first grade when I felt compelled to let my best friend Cara in on the scam. After this, all the adults at school and home asked me not to discuss the Santa issue with other children.

Fast forward to teaching child development which has sometimes included exploring lies or ways adults “bend the truth” to children, There is almost always a student in the group who shares a similar story of telling the Santa secret.

I hope your semesters are all ending smoothly.

Best,
Mona



Mona M. Abo-Zena, Ph.D.

Assistant Professor of Early Childhood Education

University of Massachusetts Boston

Wheatley Hall Room 02-142-7

100 Morrissey Boulevard, Boston, MA 02125

Office phone 617.287.7614 | Fax 617.287.7656


Recognizing that territorial boundaries are fluid and that documentation is disputed, I acknowledge and offer respect to the past, present and future Traditional Custodians of the land on which I work and live, the Masssachusett, Wampanoag, Nipmuck, and other Indigenous Peoples.




Subject: Re: December thoughts: Santa and so on
 
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Maureen Callanan

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Dec 17, 2020, 2:59:46 PM12/17/20
to Developing Belief Network
Hi all,
I’ve really enjoyed reading these stories!  I have a brief one about my daughter - at around age 7 she was still a strong believer in Santa Claus.  I overheard her having a conversation with her  friend in another room, and the friend asked “Do you believe in Santa Claus?”  There was a long pause, and in that moment I could tell that just the wording of the question to include the notion of “belief” was new to my daughter, and even though she eventually answered “yes,” I knew that it was pretty much all over!  

Looking forward to working with you all on your exciting work on belief, and hoping for a happy new year for all of us!

Maureen

On Dec 4, 2020, at 8:52 AM, Developing Belief Network <developi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Tamer Amin

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Dec 18, 2020, 3:29:50 AM12/18/20
to Maureen Callanan, Developing Belief Network

Thanks for sharing this Maureen.

 

It just occurs to me that we don’t know much (anything?) about the development of the metacognitive concept of belief. Or have I missed a literature on this??

This would seem to be a very important area to research and include among the factors being considered in accounting for the development of natural and supernatural beliefs.

 

Tamer

 

From: 'Maureen Callanan' via Developing Belief Network <developi...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: Maureen Callanan <call...@ucsc.edu>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 9:59 PM
To: Developing Belief Network <developi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: December thoughts: Santa and so on

 

Hi all,

Oviedo

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Dec 18, 2020, 2:30:00 PM12/18/20
to Tamer Amin, Maureen Callanan, Developing Belief Network
Yes, the central issue here [on children's beliefs in fantastic personages] revolts around the process of believing in children, and probably it echoes the general process in adults, but with specific traits we need to better know.
In the last few years many studies have tried to focus on that process. For those interested in this brand - in silent competition with CSR - I would recommend the following books and papers that cover this issue from a very multidisciplinary approach:
  • Agustin Fuentes,Why We Believe: Evolution and the Human Way of Being, New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 2019 [An excellent insight from an outstanding anthropologist].
  • Hans-Ferdinand Angel, Ll. Oviedo, R.F. Paloutzian, A, Runehov, R.J. Seitz, Processes of Believing: The Acquisition, Maintenance, and Change in Creditions, Dordrecht: Springer 2017 [A collective and multidisciplinary project to deal with believing].

  • Lisa Bortolotti, The Epistemic Innocence of Irrational Beliefs, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2020 [An epistemological analysis about how work less rational beliefs].

  • Connors, M. H., & Halligan, P. W. (2015). A cognitive account of belief: a tentative roadmap. Frontiers in Psychology,5, Article 1588.doi: 10.3389/fpsyg.2014.01588. [one of the best articles published on the topic]

Since we [the Graz Creditions team] are studying the believing process, we are following closely the published literature; if anybody is interested, I would be very pleased to share these studies and offer assistance.

Please, continue this stimulating conversation!

 

Lluis Oviedo
Pontificia Universita Antonianum
E-mail: lov...@antonianum.eu

From: developi...@googlegroups.com <developi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tamer Amin <ta...@aub.edu.lb>
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2020 9:29 AM
To: Maureen Callanan <call...@ucsc.edu>; Developing Belief Network <developi...@googlegroups.com>

Slavica Tutnjević

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Dec 19, 2020, 11:43:51 AM12/19/20
to Oviedo, Tamer Amin, Maureen Callanan, Developing Belief Network
Hi everyone,

I feel like sharing this today because my son just spent a day mourning his shattered belief in Saint Nicolas. 

We live in the Christian Orthodox, Serbian part of Bosnia and St Nicolas is supposed to bring something for the kids on 19 December, and then the Santa also brings a present on 31 December. It's a weird mix because the Santa is not at all a part of the Orthodox Christmas tradition, so he gets the New Year's Eve to operate instead. Interestingly, the Santa on 31 December was the central figure during the 40 years of communism too. 
Anyway, my son is nine now, and last night he made a sock that he left near the window for St Nicolas to throw in his present. We totally forgot and this morning when he asked, I told him the truth. He's been questioning the existence of Santa and St Nicolas for quite a while so I simply thought he'd already figured it out. His older sister kind of did that - she figured it out, and made a smooth transition from believing to accepting it as a story.
Talking about it with my boy while he was crying, I asked him how he felt and why and he said: "I could figure it out and doubted but I so much wanted to believe it's true and I still do. And if it's the same for the Santa don't you dare telling me." And it was not about the gift, because he got one anyway, he is literally mourning his belief.

All the best 

Slavica 

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Mona M AboZena

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Dec 20, 2020, 12:58:06 PM12/20/20
to Slavica Tutnjević, Developing Belief Network
Hi Slavica,

Thanks for sharing your particularly timely parenting story.  I'm sorry to hear about your son's broken heart.  Whatever the reasons, it's hard for them and us.  I am hopeful that he will find some joy and new ways to channel his belief (and hope?).

Best,
Mona
From: developi...@googlegroups.com <developi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Slavica Tutnjević <slavicat...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2020 11:30 AM
To: Oviedo <lov...@antonianum.eu>
Cc: Tamer Amin <ta...@aub.edu.lb>; Maureen Callanan <call...@ucsc.edu>; Developing Belief Network <developi...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: December thoughts: Santa and so on
 
EXTERNAL SENDER

Slavica Tutnjević

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Dec 20, 2020, 12:58:18 PM12/20/20
to Mona M AboZena, Developing Belief Network
Thanks for your kind words Mona. Yes, we've talked it through and fortunately, the Santa still has the chance to save the year:)
Overestimating/underestimating younger kids while expecting them to react like their older siblings did, is a mistake not always easy to avoid no matter how conscious of that pitfall we are:)

Tanya Luhrmann

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Dec 20, 2020, 2:05:21 PM12/20/20
to Developing Belief Network
A contribution from Calvin and Hobbes:



PastedGraphic-1.tiff

Claire White

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Dec 21, 2020, 5:45:15 PM12/21/20
to Tanya Luhrmann, Developing Belief Network
Greetings everyone,

Sorry to be late to the party. What a fascinating discussion! My sister gave me some advice today that related to our childhood, and as it is related to his post, I thought I would share. She told me to make sure that I told my 3-year old son that only one gift was "from Santa" (and a moderately priced gift only) and the rest from his parents who were fortunate to be able to afford them. I can't remember this, but apparently, when we were kids (we lived in a working-class neighborhood and we were poor even by those standards), some of our friends would talk about all of the wonderful gifts that santa would bring them. Even though our parents did their best, we always wondered why Santa brought those kids the most expensive gifts and we got a bunch of smaller ones. We have never shared this with our parents (can you imagine how they would feel?) but, we thus imbued Santa with some kind of intentions and desires that made him discriminate. She felt relieved when she found out that it was our parents, after all 

Happy holidays everyone!

Claire 



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/developingbelief/27C0E27C-8C23-48E1-A309-296FBF31B38E%40stanford.edu.


--
Thanks,
Claire White 
Associate Professor, Department of Religious Studies
Secretary General of The International Association for the Cognitive and Evolutionary Sciences of Religion (IACESR).
230 Santa Susana Hall
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