[Python-Dev] Switching to Discourse

[Petr Viktorin]

Hello,
Currently development discussions are split between multiple
communication channels, for example:
- python-dev and discuss.python.org for design discussions,
- GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
- IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
- Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.

While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
between python-dev and discuss.python.org. It seems that for most
people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
even if we don't go with that person's favorite.

The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing out.

The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
discuss.python.org.
Practically, this means:
- Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
- Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page
(https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
- And that's it?

I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org.

To be clear, discuss.python.org allows editing posts, which is frankly
handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used for
adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
few places.

We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org website,
but there are some ways to avoid it:

- For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss – it's not e-mail, but many
email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/)
for important questions and discussions.

- You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
messages locally.

However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
we make the final decision.



– Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
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[Skip Montanaro]

The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing out.

 

Personally, I think you are focused too narrowly and aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Email protocols were long ago standardized. As a result, people can use any of a large number of applications to read and organize their email. To my knowledge, there is no standardization amongst the various forum tools out there. I'm not suggesting discuss is necessarily better or worse than other (often not open source) forum tools, but each one implements its own walled garden. I'm referring more broadly than just Python, or even Python development, though even within the Python community it's now difficult to manage/monitor all the various discussion sources (email, discuss, GitHub, Stack Overflow, ...)

Get off my lawn! ;-)

Skip, kinda glad he's retired now...

[Rob Boehne via Python-Dev]

100% agree – dealing with 5 or more platforms for discussion groups is a nightmare, and I tend not to follow any of them as closely for that reason.

[Peter Wang via Python-Dev]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 9:33 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Email protocols were long ago standardized. As a result, people can use any of a large number of applications to read and organize their email. To my knowledge, there is no standardization amongst the various forum tools out there.

While I understand and somewhat agree with you, Skip, there is a "hidden" feature of Discourse that does make it a little easier to track many different forums:  You can add ".rss" to various URLs and get an RSS feed for that topic/channel/etc.

e.g. the WebAssembly group is: https://discuss.python.org/c/webassembly/28

And its corresponding RSS feed is: https://discuss.python.org/c/webassembly/28.rss

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Phil Thompson via Python-Dev]

On 15/07/2022 16:09, Rob Boehne via Python-Dev wrote:
> 100% agree – dealing with 5 or more platforms for discussion groups is
> a nightmare, and I tend not to follow any of them as closely for that
> reason.

I agree. I don't mind having to use Discourse if I want to take part in
a discussion but 99% of the time I just want to keep up to date with
what is going on. In that case I want the information to come to me - I
don't want to have to hunt for it. Can there be an RSS feed for
everything, not just PEPs?

Phil

> From: Skip Montanaro <skip.mo...@gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, July 15, 2022 at 9:26 AM
> To: Petr Viktorin <enc...@gmail.com>
> Cc: pytho...@python.org <pytho...@python.org>
> Subject: [SPAM] [Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
> The
> discuss.python.org<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscuss.python.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Crobb%40datalogics.com%7C241da9f510764bf2ba8608da666df61c%7Cfc3d8cdfd6994f23ae232659c3da4749%7C0%7C1%7C637934919720701261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DThYDKE32GfsdNG9hlvthdjnl%2B%2BmnvPUj3lM9SnsjbE%3D&reserved=0>
> experiment has been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> According to staff,

> discuss.python.org<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscuss.python.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Crobb%40datalogics.com%7C241da9f510764bf2ba8608da666df61c%7Cfc3d8cdfd6994f23ae232659c3da4749%7C0%7C1%7C637934919720701261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DThYDKE32GfsdNG9hlvthdjnl%2B%2BmnvPUj3lM9SnsjbE%3D&reserved=0>

> is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not

> discuss.python.org<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscuss.python.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Crobb%40datalogics.com%7C241da9f510764bf2ba8608da666df61c%7Cfc3d8cdfd6994f23ae232659c3da4749%7C0%7C1%7C637934919720701261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DThYDKE32GfsdNG9hlvthdjnl%2B%2BmnvPUj3lM9SnsjbE%3D&reserved=0>,

> you're missing out.
>
> Personally, I think you are focused too narrowly and aren't seeing the
> forest for the trees. Email protocols were long ago standardized. As a
> result, people can use any of a large number of applications to read
> and organize their email. To my knowledge, there is no standardization
> amongst the various forum tools out there. I'm not suggesting discuss
> is necessarily better or worse than other (often not open source)
> forum tools, but each one implements its own walled garden. I'm
> referring more broadly than just Python, or even Python development,
> though even within the Python community it's now difficult to
> manage/monitor all the various discussion sources (email, discuss,
> GitHub, Stack Overflow, ...)
>
> Get off my lawn! ;-)
>
> Skip, kinda glad he's retired now...
>
>

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> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

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[Petr Viktorin]

On 15. 07. 22 16:24, Skip Montanaro wrote:
> The discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> experiment has

> been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.

> According to staff, discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>

> is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org

> <http://discuss.python.org>, you're missing out.

>
> Personally, I think you are focused too narrowly and aren't seeing the
> forest for the trees. Email protocols were long ago standardized. As a
> result, people can use any of a large number of applications to read and
> organize their email. To my knowledge, there is no standardization
> amongst the various forum tools out there. I'm not suggesting discuss is
> necessarily better or worse than other (often not open source) forum
> tools, but each one implements its own walled garden. I'm referring more
> broadly than just Python, or even Python development, though even within
> the Python community it's now difficult to manage/monitor all the
> various discussion sources (email, discuss, GitHub, Stack Overflow, ...)
>
> Get off my lawn! ;-)
>
> Skip, kinda glad he's retired now...

And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with
client-side filtering in Thunderbird.
I do go to the site to post though. Tthat's possible by e-mail, but the
lack of standardization in reply/quoting styles and makes it hard for
Discourse to format e-mail replies nicely. (Traditional clients aren't
perfect at that either, TBH.)


– Petr (not on behalf of any group)

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[Petr Viktorin]

On 15. 07. 22 17:34, Phil Thompson via Python-Dev wrote:
> On 15/07/2022 16:09, Rob Boehne via Python-Dev wrote:
>> 100% agree – dealing with 5 or more platforms for discussion groups is
>> a nightmare, and I tend not to follow any of them as closely for that
>> reason.
>
> I agree. I don't mind having to use Discourse if I want to take part in
> a discussion but 99% of the time I just want to keep up to date with
> what is going on. In that case I want the information to come to me - I
> don't want to have to hunt for it. Can there be an RSS feed for
> everything, not just PEPs?

For everything on Discourse, the RSS feed is at
https://discuss.python.org/latest.rss
For a specific categoriy/topic, append .rss to the Web URL.

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[Barry Warsaw]

This might seem odd coming from me, but I’ve come around to supporting this move. Discourse is not without its issues, but then again, the same can be said about email. Without going into too much of my own personal preferences, I agree that the experiment has proven successful enough that there’s more value at this point in consolidating discussions.

Thank you for reaching out to see if there are any usability or workflow issues that might impact this decision. There aren’t too much for me, but I wonder if there are accessibility or native language concerns that might unduly affect other users.

One thing I didn’t see mentioned is the question of identity. There’s one side which is how folks self identify themselves on the mailing list or forum. We don’t have any prohibitions against alias or nicknames, which IMHO is totally fine. The flip side is more important, ensuring that folks identities can’t be spoofed or hijacked. In email at least, I can digitally sign my messages (such as this one), and while it’s probably true that fewer and fewer folks use any kind of email digital signature verification, at least *I* can prove whether or not I wrote something. What similar kinds of protections do we have on Discourse?

-Barry

[Mariatta]

I think this is a great change, one I've been looking forward to myself.

For authors of PEPs and discussion topics, Discourse provides better authoring experience, allowing for typo fixes and small edits.

For moderators, Discourse also provides the toolings to make their jobs easier, which is definitely lacking in mailing list.

For the readers, we get the choice of receiving emails via mailing list mode, or via rss, or by actually going to the site.

I think it's great that you've considered what's best for the different types of users here.  So thank you Petr and SC for this decision.

[Erlend Egeberg Aasland]

I support the move to Discourse. For me, the combination of GitHub, Discourse, and Discord work very well.

Looking forward to one less mailing list subscription in my life ;)

Erlend

[Ethan Furman]

On 7/15/22 08:37, Petr Viktorin wrote:

> And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with client-side
> filtering in Thunderbird.

How do you handle threading? I follow each (sub)thread through to it's end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse
has everything linear which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping around, making it hard to follow.

--
~Ethan~

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[Joannah Nanjekye]

I am -1 for leaving email due to the long history of standardization, for a platform whose future I don't know about.

When you say core development is busier, does that mean the experiment with python-dev failed? aka wasn't a success, if so why are we moving python-dev too if it's not working well? I stand to be corrected obviously.

[Barry Warsaw]

To me, that’s the biggest negative of Discourse, and I definitely prefer threaded discussions. Unfortunately though, much like top posting <wink>, I think that horse is out of the barn, what with other forums like GitHub being linear.

-Barry

[Cameron Simpson]

On 15Jul2022 11:59, Ethan Furman <et...@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>On 7/15/22 08:37, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>> And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with
>> client-side
>> filtering in Thunderbird.
>
>How do you handle threading? I follow each (sub)thread through to
>it's end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse has everything
>linear which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping
>around, making it hard to follow.

I use discourse in mailing list mode. It only looks unthreaded :-)

What actually happens is that it has its own message-ids and mangles
things, and treats some headers differently. Eg if I post to discourse,
the copy of the message which comes to me from discourse has a discourse
generated message-id, not my original message-id.

I did a bit of digging here:
https://discuss.python.org/t/why-is-the-result-after-this-function-is-called-like-this/14680/15
but have not got to submitting a bug report.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <c...@cskk.id.au>

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[Miro Hrončok]

On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes you to
> all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing messages locally.

Hello Petr,

I suppose this might be the preferred way for the old farts like me who prefer
mailing lists over a never-ending list of specific websites for each specific
thing we are participating in.

What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how to use
discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode” or what's the easiest way to
filter incoming mail into directories based on discuss.python.org categories,
how do I handle answers/threads, and finally, how to make this approach effective?

Note that I am capable of googling some of this stuff, but I am preferably
looking for your personal tips, as I always assumed you are a mail person, like
I am. If you prefer to use the RSS feeds, I am interested in tips there as well.

Thanks,
--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok

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[Stefan Behnel]

Petr Viktorin schrieb am 15.07.22 um 13:18:

> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while, and
> while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a success. The
> Core Development category is busier than python-dev. According to staff,
> discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If you're following
> python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing out.

That's one of the reasons then why I pretty much lost track of the CPython
development since d.p.o was introduced. It's sad, but it was just too much
work for me (compared to threaded Newsgroups) to follow the discussions
there, definitely more than I wanted to invest.

It's not the only reason, though, so please take a decision for the home of
CPython discussions that suits the (currently) more active part of the
development community.

Stefan

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[Petr Viktorin]

On 16. 07. 22 8:48, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which
>> subscribes you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or
>> categorizing messages locally.
>
> Hello Petr,
>
> I suppose this might be the preferred way for the old farts like me who
> prefer mailing lists over a never-ending list of specific websites for
> each specific thing we are participating in.
>
> What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how
> to use discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode”

Is this note enough?
https://devguide.python.org/developer-workflow/communication-channels/?highlight=discourse#enabling-mailing-list-mode

> or what's the
> easiest way to filter incoming mail into directories based on
> discuss.python.org categories,

Tags at the start of the Subject line work pretty well (though they can
change occasionally).

> how do I handle answers/threads,

> and finally, how to make this approach effective?

That depends on what's effective for you, I'm afraid. I read/skim
everything (except Users), so I might not need as much filtering as you.
In my experience, marking/muting a thread works about as well as for
regular e-mail threads -- the linearity is suboptimal, but not that bad.

> Note that I am capable of googling some of this stuff, but I am
> preferably looking for your personal tips, as I always assumed you are a
> mail person, like I am. If you prefer to use the RSS feeds, I am
> interested in tips there as well.

I don't use RSS feeds.

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[Petr Viktorin]

On 15. 07. 22 20:59, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 7/15/22 08:37, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>
> > And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with
> client-side
> > filtering in Thunderbird.
>
> How do you handle threading?  I follow each (sub)thread through to it's
> end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse has everything linear
> which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping around,
> making it hard to follow.

I accepted that it's linear.

I don't think I *can* do much more than accept it and move on: if
python-dev was used by everyone, rather than almost exclusively by
people who prefer e-mail (and presumably use threading mail clients),
we'd get mangled threading anyway from all the non-threaded clients.

I mean, I could grumble about threading and bottom-posting and
plain-text messages and IRC all day, but realistically, I'm not likely
to convince anyone who's not into those things already.

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[Petr Viktorin]

On 15. 07. 22 21:13, Joannah Nanjekye wrote:
> I am -1 for leaving email due to the long history of standardization,
> for a platform whose future I don't know about.
>
> When you say core development is busier, does that mean the experiment
> with python-dev failed? aka wasn't a success, if so why are we moving
> python-dev too if it's not working well? I stand to be corrected obviously.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you meant here.

The "experiment" was introducing Discourse (discuss.python.org) to see
if people would like it. It looks like they do, since the Core
Development category on Discourse is more active than this mailing list
(python-dev).

>
> On Fri., Jul. 15, 2022, 2:22 p.m. Petr Viktorin, <enc...@gmail.com

> <mailto:enc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Currently development discussions are split between multiple
> communication channels, for example:

> - python-dev and discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> for

> design discussions,
> - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
> - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
> - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
>
> While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
> between python-dev and discuss.python.org

> <http://discuss.python.org>. It seems that for most

> people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
> even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
>

> The discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> experiment has

> been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.

> According to staff, discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>

> is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org

> <http://discuss.python.org>, you're missing out.

>
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to

> discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>.

> Practically, this means:
> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org

> <http://discuss.python.org>
> - Moving discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> up in the

> devguide communications page
> (https://devguide.python.org/communication/

> <https://devguide.python.org/communication/>)

> - And that's it?
>
> I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
> discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
> auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org

> <http://discuss.python.org>.
>
> To be clear, discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> allows

> editing posts, which is frankly
> handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used
> for
> adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
> mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
> few places.
>
> We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org

> <http://discuss.python.org> website,

> but there are some ways to avoid it:
>
> - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss
> <https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss> – it's not e-mail, but many
> email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
> issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/

> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/>)

> for important questions and discussions.
>

> - You can use discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>'s

> “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> messages locally.
>
> However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
> anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
> of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
> good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
> we make the final decision.
>
>
>
> – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
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[Joannah Nanjekye]

I see I might have misunderstood, thinking a python-dev channel on discuss was not as active as the mailing list. Understood.

My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable standards.

[Skip Montanaro]

I don't think I *can* do much more than accept it and move on: if
python-dev was used by everyone, rather than almost exclusively by
people who prefer e-mail (and presumably use threading mail clients),
we'd get mangled threading anyway from all the non-threaded clients.

Don't forget that used to be the case. ;-)

Skip

[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 15/07/2022 à 17:52, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
>
> For everything on Discourse, the RSS feed is at
> https://discuss.python.org/latest.rss
> For a specific categoriy/topic, append .rss to the Web URL.

Hello,

thanks for the useful information.

However, I just tried it and I can only read the first message of each
thread. Then I have to "Read full topic" through the nightmarish web
interface with its nag screens.

Is there a way to access all posts through the mail/RSS client,
preferably with a threaded view?

Cheers,
Baptiste

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[h.vet...@gmx.com]

I think it's a great idea! :) [1]

LLVM did the same recently (though they imported all previous messages from the mailinglist, thus making them searchable in discourse) [2 - announcement; 3 - retro], and by and large, I think it was a success.

One of the comments in the retro was:
> Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed for that long.

I that it would be worth considering importing the mailing list into a separate discourse category that's then archived, but at least searchable. This would also lower the hurdle of new(er) contributors to investigate previous discussion on a given topic.

[1] https://discuss.python.org/t/what-i-miss-here-coming-from-users-rust-lang-org/13859/9
[2] https://blog.llvm.org/posts/2022-01-07-moving-to-discourse/
[3] https://discourse.llvm.org/t/response-to-the-move-to-discourse-retrospective/63159

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[Eric Snow]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:15 PM Barry Warsaw <ba...@python.org> wrote:
> I agree that the experiment has proven successful enough that there’s more value at this point in consolidating discussions.

We've only been running this experiment since 2017(?) so maybe it's
too soon to say it's a success? <wink>


-eric

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[Eric Snow]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 5:21 AM Petr Viktorin <enc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> discuss.python.org.

This seems like a net win for the community so +1 from me. (For me
personally it amounts to disruption with little advantage, so I'd
probably be -0). However, I am not python-dev and discuss.python.org
is probably a better fit for most of the participants.)

(Message threading on discuss.python.org feels like a step backward in
usability though. This is especially true with long threads, support
for which (I expect) Discourse has not prioritized.)

My only real concern is one I've brought up before when we started
splitting discussions onto DPO (discuss.python.org), as well as with
the GitHub issues migration: message archives.

I consider the ability to search message archives to be essential to
effective contribution, both in attracting/integrating new
contributors and in providing "offline" context for active
contributors. The existing archives have aided me personally so many
times in both ways.

There are relevant three aspects to archival and search that are worth
asking about here:

1. search functionality on the [archive] web site
2. ability to search using other tools (e.g. my favorite: Google
search with "site:...")
3. single archive vs. split archive

Regarding (1), currently it is relatively easy to search through
message archives on https://mail.python.org/archives/list/.... The
DPO UI search functionality seems fine.

Regarding (2), currently it's easy to search using other tools and the
results are clean (not noisy). With DPO, is that possible? (A quick
attempt was a complete failure.) Would the results be good enough?
Would they be noisier?

Regarding (3), it's a small thing but, IMHO, having a single archive
is valuable. Most notably (for me, at least), with a split archive it
becomes a little harder to make sure searches covered the full message
history of a given channel.

It would be nice if at least one of the sites could preserve *all* the
history. In the case of python-dev, either we'd forward all relevant
DPO messages to pytho...@python.org (or otherwise directly send them
to https://mail.python.org/archives/list/pytho...@python.org) or
we'd import the archived mailing list into DPO. Or maybe it would
require more work than it would be worth?

> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> messages locally.

FWIW, I've been using mailing list mode (for consumption) since we
started discuss.python.org and it's been fine. I've hit a
couple[1][2] minor annoyances, but overall I don't have any real
complaints. Mailing list mode is straightforward to configure, the
messages have a "mailing list" header set (for easy filtering), and
jumping over to the web UI to start a thread, respond (or react) is
trivial.

-eric


[1] My mobile email notifications format the messages weird.
[2] The messages are significantly noisier than regular (text) email.

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[Eric Snow]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 11:48 AM <h.vet...@gmx.com> wrote:
> LLVM did the same recently (though they imported all previous messages from the mailinglist, thus making them searchable in discourse) [2 - announcement; 3 - retro], and by and large, I think it was a success.
>
> One of the comments in the retro was:
> > Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed for that long.
>
> I that it would be worth considering importing the mailing list into a separate discourse category that's then archived, but at least searchable. This would also lower the hurdle of new(er) contributors to investigate previous discussion on a given topic.

+1

-eric

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[Cameron Simpson]

On 18Jul2022 16:53, Joannah Nanjekye <nanjeky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I see I might have misunderstood, thinking a python-dev channel on discuss
>was not as active as the mailing list. Understood.
>
>My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable
>standards.

Several of us use the email mode in Discourse. It works quite well. For
me, both python-dev and the PDO posts land in my "python" local folder.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <c...@cskk.id.au>

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[Ethan Furman]

On 7/20/22 17:35, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 18Jul2022 16:53, Joannah Nanjekye <nanjeky...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable
>> standards.
>
> Several of us use the email mode in Discourse. It works quite well. For
> me, both python-dev and the PDO posts land in my "python" local folder.

It works, but I wouldn't say "quite well" -- any thread from discourse is one long linear series of replies, and reading
them in chronological order means jumping around and trying to figure what is a reply to what.

--
~Ethan~

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[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Eric Snow writes:

> I consider the ability to search message archives to be essential to

> effective contribution[.]

+1

> There are relevant three aspects to archival and search that are worth
> asking about here:
>
> 1. search functionality on the [archive] web site
> 2. ability to search using other tools (e.g. my favorite: Google
> search with "site:...")
> 3. single archive vs. split archive

I can't speak to 1 and 2, and I can't speak to cost of resource usage
for 3, but it would be possible to have a Mailman list that has no
subscribers, prohibits subscription, and allows only a small number of
authorized posters, one of which would be the Discourse mail feed. As
long as Discourse provides the In-Reply-To header field, the current
threading algorithm would work reasonably well. I guess we would also
want to disable replies in HyperKitty (maybe that's already a
consequence of "no subscribers"?) I don't know how hard that would
be.

Steve

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[Cameron Simpson]

On 21Jul2022 10:29, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephenj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>As long as Discourse provides the In-Reply-To header field, the current
>threading algorithm would work reasonably well.

Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some
headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year"
thread:

Message-ID: <topic/17208/60568.898edf234...@discuss.python.org>
In-Reply-To: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>
References: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>

The first post has this:

Message-ID: <topic/17208.dc83577b1...@discuss.python.org>
References: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>

So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to
submit a bug report.

In essense: The `References` and `In-Reply-To` headers cite a
_nonexistent_ message-id which just denotes the thread number in the web
forum.

By contrast, the message-id itself at least is nice and unique.

_However_, someone participating in "email mode" will of course send a
message with its own distinct message-id from their source system, and
that does not survive the email->discourse->email-out process. So your
local copy of the message, if you keep one (I do) it will be a distinct
duplicate message in your mail folder. I don't expect that to change.

Anyway:
- Discourse does provide `In-Reply-To` and `References`
- they're bogus
- they can be fixed (I'll submit a bug report, someone told me how to do
that...)

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <c...@cskk.id.au>

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[Simon Cross]

I'm -1 on moving to the walled garden, but I don't expect this to change anyone's mind. I don't know if I'll move over to Discourse or not.

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cameron Simpson writes:

> Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some
> headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year"
> thread:
>
> Message-ID: <topic/17208/60568.898edf234...@discuss.python.org>
> In-Reply-To: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>
> References: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>

I'm tempted to write something uncivil, but instead I'm gonna go hug a
puppy and weep.

> So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to
> submit a bug report.

Thank you!

You may find it useful to cite RFC 5322, section 3.6.4, and emphasize
"unique" while mentioning the algorithm for populating References and
In-Reply-To presented there.

> _However_, someone participating in "email mode" will of course send a
> message with its own distinct message-id from their source system, and

> that does not survive the email->discourse->email-out process. [...]

> I don't expect that to change.

That's just plain obnoxious. Anybody who's in the CCs who
participates in "email mode" will get (practically speaking)
unfilterable duplicates, and (if there is offline discussion) a bogus
new thread.

I wonder if this goes all the way through to the backend database (ie,
the only id a message gets are its thread id, a timestamp, and some
way to ensure a total order in the case of equal timestamps), and the
only place in Discourse where the unique Message-ID appears is in the
outgoing message. In that case getting any sanity in Discourse email
could be very expensive for Discourse.

Steve

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[Stefan Behnel]

h.vet...@gmx.com schrieb am 18.07.22 um 18:04:

> One of the comments in the retro was:
>> Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed for that long.

I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have done
that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of which I
don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane seems to
have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when I subscribed".

It's really sad that Discourse lacks an NNTP interface. There's an
unmaintained bridge to NNTP servers [1], but not an emulating interface
that would serve the available discussions via NNTP messages, so that users
can get them into their NNTP/Mail clients to read them in proper discussion
threads. I think adding that next to the existing web interface would serve
everyone's needs just perfectly.

Anyone up for giving that a try? It can't be *that* difficult. ;-)

Stefan


[1] https://github.com/sman591/discourse-nntp-bridge

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[Cameron Simpson]

On 21Jul2022 13:25, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephenj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Cameron Simpson writes:
> > Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some
> > headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year"
> > thread:
> >
> > Message-ID: <topic/17208/60568.898edf234...@discuss.python.org>
> > In-Reply-To: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>
> > References: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>
>
>I'm tempted to write something uncivil, but instead I'm gonna go hug a
>puppy and weep.
>
> > So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to
> > submit a bug report.
>
>Thank you!

Bug report:

https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-email-messages-are-incorrectly-threaded/233499

>You may find it useful to cite RFC 5322, section 3.6.4, and emphasize
>"unique" while mentioning the algorithm for populating References and
>In-Reply-To presented there.

I've pointed them at it. I didn't belabor the id generation since their
ids seem ok. It's the referencing header which are broken.

> > _However_, someone participating in "email mode" will of course send
> > a
> > message with its own distinct message-id from their source system, and
> > that does not survive the email->discourse->email-out process. [...]
> > I don't expect that to change.
>
>That's just plain obnoxious. Anybody who's in the CCs who
>participates in "email mode" will get (practically speaking)
>unfilterable duplicates, and (if there is offline discussion) a bogus
>new thread.

Well, I think a number of mailing lists startyed do this to support DKIM
or DMARC or something, otherwise their message would amount to a forgery
if what they received. Never dug into it much. It's annoying, but not
nearly as annoying as broken threading.

>I wonder if this goes all the way through to the backend database (ie,
> the only id a message gets are its thread id, a timestamp, and some
>way to ensure a total order in the case of equal timestamps), and the
>only place in Discourse where the unique Message-ID appears is in the
>outgoing message. In that case getting any sanity in Discourse email
>could be very expensive for Discourse.

Personally I don't care how "expensive" it is. The email mode is, to me,
a _major_ feature of Discourse. I'm sure I'm not alone is hating forums
which require me to go to them (or, equally bad, send some kind of
summary of new things - I'm looking at you, Google Groups). That
Discourse does quite a good job of letting people participate via the
forum or email is very welcome. But it has to be done correctly.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <c...@cskk.id.au>

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[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 05:43:26PM -0700, Ethan Furman wrote:

> It works, but I wouldn't say "quite well" -- any thread from discourse is
> one long linear series of replies, and reading them in chronological order
> means jumping around and trying to figure what is a reply to what.

Sometimes, seemingly at random, Discourse will not email the first
message in a thread. No, it's not in my spam filter, I've checked.

In my experience, Discourse doesn't cope well with email replies that
use hard line breaks, breaking each line into its own paragraph -- but
only sometimes.

Discourse seems to insert blank lines between paragraphs in messages
sent by email, even in code blocks -- but only sometimes.

Even when it does't insert blank lines, Discourse seems to insert extra
carriage returns (^M) at the end of lines in messages it sends -- but
only sometimes.

Discourse seems to treat a row of hyphens (what should be a markdown
hrule) as the end of the post, and delete the hyphens and everything
after it -- but only sometimes.

Once, I've had Discourse seemingly randomly delete one line in the
middle of a code block for no apparent reason.

The bottom line is that Discourse's email works, but with a seemingly
never-ending parade of annoyances and frustrations.



--
Steve

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[Eric Snow]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 12:19 AM Stefan Behnel <stef...@behnel.de> wrote:
> I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have done
> that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of which I
> don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane seems to
> have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when I subscribed".

+1

> It's really sad that Discourse lacks an NNTP interface. There's an
> unmaintained bridge to NNTP servers [1], but not an emulating interface
> that would serve the available discussions via NNTP messages, so that users
> can get them into their NNTP/Mail clients to read them in proper discussion
> threads. I think adding that next to the existing web interface would serve
> everyone's needs just perfectly.

Perhaps the possible mirroring-to-mailman that Steve (Turnbull)
mentioned would be enough to facilitate a continuity for NNTP?

-eric

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[Skip Montanaro]

I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
discuss.python.org, just by another name? I find the similarity in
names a bit confusing.

Skip

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[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 03:07, Skip Montanaro <skip.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
> discuss.python.org, just by another name? I find the similarity in
> names a bit confusing.
>

No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
similar in purpose.

ChrisA

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[Antoine Pitrou]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 07:59:46 +0200
Stefan Behnel <stef...@behnel.de> wrote:
> h.vet...@gmx.com schrieb am 18.07.22 um 18:04:
> > One of the comments in the retro was:
> >> Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed for that long.
>
> I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have done
> that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of which I
> don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane seems to
> have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when I subscribed".

+1 as well (as in "that's what I do too").

Regards

Antoine.

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[Mariatta]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:05 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
discuss.python.org, just by another name? I find the similarity in
names a bit confusing.

 

It's not the same. discuss.python.org is an instance of Discourse.

Discord is something completely something else.

 Indeed the similarity is confusing.

[Samuel Colvin]

Hi, no I think "discord" refers to https://discord.com/

If discord is not finalised, we might also consider https://zulip.com/ which rust uses and would (based on a very quick look) appear to be more appropriate for python development's use case?

Samuel

--

Samuel Colvin

[Skip Montanaro]

> No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
> channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
> similar in purpose.

Thanks (and to the others who replied). It seems like they've tried to
make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
whatever). What's up with that? Do we really need yet another place
full of overlapping discussion channels?

Skip

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[Mariatta]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:20 AM Samuel Colvin <S...@muelcolvin.com> wrote:

If discord is not finalised, we might also consider https://zulip.com/ which rust uses and would (based on a very quick look) appear to be more appropriate for python development's use case?

We tried zulip in the past, it never got traction. I believe there was an email saying that it's no longer monitored by core devs. We also removed it from devguide.

For the core devs, Discord was chosen after discussions in the python-committers: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-c...@python.org/thread/BVPITIYRECSGCX2JUTMT7F7CCCYQSK4K/#BVPITIYRECSGCX2JUTMT7F7CCCYQSK4K

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 03:17, Skip Montanaro <skip.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
> > channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
> > similar in purpose.
>
> Thanks (and to the others who replied). It seems like they've tried to
> make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
> whatever). What's up with that?

Everything's gotta be funded somehow.

ChrisA

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[Mats Wichmann]

On 7/21/22 11:11, Mariatta wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:05 AM Skip Montanaro
> <skip.mo...@gmail.com <mailto:skip.mo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as

> discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>, just by another

> name? I find the similarity in
> names a bit confusing.
>
>  

> It's not the same. discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> is an

> instance of Discourse.
>
> Discord is something completely something else.
>  Indeed the similarity is confusing.

As the wag said,

"These are only two hard things in computer science, cache invalidation
and naming things".


Add in IP lawyers and I think naming may have advanced to being the hardest.

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[Mats Wichmann]

On 7/21/22 11:16, Skip Montanaro wrote:
>> No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
>> channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
>> similar in purpose.
>
> Thanks (and to the others who replied). It seems like they've tried to
> make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
> whatever). What's up with that?

Discord has grown up in the gaming community, its use as a general chat
platform was possibly not anticipated... as one who is not at all
affected by gamification of things (e.g. I'm utterly unmotivated by
people trying to award badges for unlocking accomplishments, etc., but I
know it's considered to work for many people) if comes off seeming
silly, but I can just ignore that part.

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[MRAB]

On 21/07/2022 18:53, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> On 7/21/22 11:11, Mariatta wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:05 AM Skip Montanaro
>> <skip.mo...@gmail.com <mailto:skip.mo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
>> discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>, just by another
>> name? I find the similarity in
>> names a bit confusing.
>>
>>
>> It's not the same. discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> is an
>> instance of Discourse.
>>
>> Discord is something completely something else.
>>  Indeed the similarity is confusing.
>
>
> As the wag said,
>
> "These are only two hard things in computer science, cache invalidation
> and naming things".
>
>

Another wag said:

There are only two hard things in computer science: cache
invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors.

> Add in IP lawyers and I think naming may have advanced to being the hardest.
>
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[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:34 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
> channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
> similar in purpose.

Thanks (and to the others who replied).

FYI this multiple responses issue doesn't come up on Discourse because the replies are shown in real-time (as is the "Skip is typing ..." at the bottom).

 

It seems like they've tried to
make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
whatever). What's up with that?

It's for "funding" a Discord server and how Discord makes money (otherwise the service is free).

 

Do we really need yet another place
full of overlapping discussion channels?

Discord isn't overlapping with Discourse. Think of Discord as replacing IRC while also providing audio chat (and other things). For instance, people who were working together to squash release blockers for b4 were chatting live on Discord.

[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 21/07/2022 à 07:59, Stefan Behnel a écrit :
>
> I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have
> done that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of
> which I don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane
> seems to have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when
> I subscribed".
>

> It's really sad that Discourse lacks an NNTP interface. […]

+1000

For this switch to accommodate all use cases, Discourse really needs a
"lurking" story.

That's lacking right now, possibly by design (Discourse developers are
quite opinionated*, and anonymous reading seemingly doesn't fit their
worldview). Maybe they can be convinced, though…

By the way, I'm still trying the RSS way, but it doesn't seem to fit the
bill (lack of a stream of posts per category).

Cheers,
Baptiste

*not meant as a criticism: opinionated is good; it just makes it more
difficult to provide the main communication channel of a wide and
diverse community.

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[Joshua Herman]

To demystify why you want to boost (I am in the python discord and other non gaming and gaming chats) it unlocks better features but the core experence of chat still exists . Basically voice chat goes up to 384kbps steams go up to 1080p quality and you get a 100MB upload limit.

I know that react and defcon use discord as a chat platform so it’s not just gaming. Having better steaming / audio chat  can be good to help people and uploads can be things like python scripts . 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 21, 2022, at 1:59 PM, Brett Cannon <br...@python.org> wrote:



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[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 21/07/2022 à 03:29, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
>
> I can't speak to 1 and 2, and I can't speak to cost of resource usage
> for 3, but it would be possible to have a Mailman list that has no
> subscribers, prohibits subscription, and allows only a small number of
> authorized posters, one of which would be the Discourse mail feed.

Hi,

If GMANE would be allowed to subscribe, that would be a perfect fit!

Cheers,
baptiste

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[Steven Barker]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 6:28 AM Petr Viktorin <enc...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 16. 07. 22 8:48, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which
>> subscribes you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or
>> categorizing messages locally.

[...]

> What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how
> to use discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode”

Is this note enough?
https://devguide.python.org/developer-workflow/communication-channels/?highlight=discourse#enabling-mailing-list-mode

[...]

So last night I tried activating mailing list mode, and I'm not remotely satisfied with the experience so far. Where mailing lists are concerned, I'm only subscribed to python-dev. Not python-users, not -ideas, not -packaging (if that's still a thing). But Discourse's mailing list mode sends me messages for all of those things in such a volume that it drowns out any discussions on topics that would have shown up on python-dev (I think one PEP discussion message came in overnight, compared to 20+ posts on other tags). After the first two -users messages came in almost immediately, I tried telling discourse to mute the tags I don't care about, but it seems not to work at all. The page with the mailing list mode toggle warns that it overrides other email settings, so I think I just get everything regardless of other settings.

If my only option is to be subscribed to a firehose of stuff I don't care about, I'm going to disable mailing list mode and if python-dev dies, I'll pretty much quit following Python's development. Now, I'm not a very important Python developer, I'm not a core dev, and my contributions are a few bug reports and a few patches over many years. But if there's no way to lurk on a modest-volume mailing list and contribute only occasionally, you're not going to get nearly as many people paying attention. I'm sure I could set up a whole suite of filters on my own end (e.g. discard any email with a subject starting with "[py] [Users]"), but that's an absurd and unnecessary burden, and it will only get worse the more categories you add to discourse (and I think the ease of adding categories is supposed to be a feature). This plan is going to drive developers like me away.

For discourse mailing list mode to be a reasonable substitute for python-dev, it needs filtering on the sending end to work. Ideally there would be a way to subscribe only to the things I care about. Maybe that exists, but it's buried in menus I don't understand (or which mailing list mode overrides).

Rather than comparing the number of posters on discourse vs python-dev, have we compared stats for how many people receive the messages?

 

[Edwin Zimmerman]

On 7/21/22 6:42 PM, Steven Barker wrote:

Ideally there would be a way to subscribe only to the things I care about. Maybe that exists, but it's buried in menus I don't understand (or which mailing list mode overrides).

Mailing list mode is not what you want.  Instead, turn mailing list mode off and set your email settings to these:



You can adjust the categories you receive email notifications for by changing your list of watched categories under the notification settings:

[Jonathan Goble]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 15:26 Baptiste Carvello <deve...@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:

Le 21/07/2022 à 07:59, Stefan Behnel a écrit :
>
> I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have
> done that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of
> which I don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane
> seems to have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when
> I subscribed".
>
> It's really sad that Discourse lacks an NNTP interface. […]

+1000

For this switch to accommodate all use cases, Discourse really needs a
"lurking" story.

That's lacking right now, possibly by design (Discourse developers are
quite opinionated*, and anonymous reading seemingly doesn't fit their
worldview). Maybe they can be convinced, though…

Lurker here. :) I lurk, both on -ideas and -dev, primarily to stay well-informed on new ideas coming down the pipeline, and occasionally (but rarely) voice my two cents.

I signed up on Discourse after this thread started, and turned on mailing list mode immediately. So far, I have no problems with that. It suits my purpose just fine once I muted the Users forum. I might mute a few others soon.

I consume the mailing lists (and now Discourse) through standard Gmail interfaces (both the web interface and the official Android app), so I cannot speak to the lack of proper threading (it's all linear anyway in Gmail). I do use filters in Gmail to label threads by list, and I found that Discourse plays nice with this: each forum, like each mailing list, has its own mailing list attribute with a corresponding "list:" search prefix in Gmail, so filtering, labeling, and organizing by forum is easy. (Example: https://snipboard.io/WGF6Qz.jpg)

[Jonathan Goble]

Mailing list mode indeed turns on the entire firehose, but you can selectively turn things off (like the Users category). If you go to a category page, click the bell icon in the upper right, and choose Muted, you'll stop getting emails from that category, even in mailing list mode. I muted the Users category almost immediately, which drastically slowed the firehose. I'm now monitoring to decide what other categories are annoying enough to mute, but the flow is slow enough when combined with my Gmail filters to not need immediate action like the Users category did.

[Cameron Simpson]

On 21Jul2022 15:42, Steven Barker <blck...@gmail.com> wrote:
>So last night I tried activating mailing list mode, and I'm not
>remotely
>satisfied with the experience so far. Where mailing lists are concerned,

>I'm *only *subscribed to python-dev. Not python-users, not -ideas, not

>-packaging (if that's still a thing). But Discourse's mailing list mode
>sends me messages for all of those things in such a volume that it drowns
>out any discussions on topics that would have shown up on python-dev (I
>think one PEP discussion message came in overnight, compared to 20+ posts
>on other tags). After the first two -users messages came in almost
>immediately, I tried telling discourse to mute the tags I don't care about,
>but it seems not to work at all. The page with the mailing list mode toggle
>warns that it overrides other email settings, so I think I just get
>everything regardless of other settings.

Aye. I jointed meta.discourse.org yesterday to submit a bug report about
the threading (which they acknowledge is a regession) and this morning I
turned off mailing list mode.

So:
- I still use mailing list mode for discuss.python.org; I'm abstractly
interested in everything, and I have an aggressive email filtering
system
- I'm not using email mode for meta.discourse.org; Gah!!!!

However: mailing list mode _is_ the firehose (minus muted topics and
categories - nb not tags).

With it off you can elect to receive messages as email for several
things:
- when you're sent a personal message (always/when away/never)
- when quoted, replied to, @ed or new activity in watched categories,
tags, topics (always/when away/never)
- there's an option for an activity summary (I set it to "weekly" for
meta.discourse.org)

So what you could do is watch the "Dev" category if you want the
equivalent of just python-dev.

I'm going to see how it plays out, but I expect that will let me get a
tightly limited email feed which I can treat like any other email list.

>If my only option is to be subscribed to a firehose of stuff I don't
>care about, I'm going to disable mailing list mode and if python-dev dies, I'll
>pretty much quit following Python's development.

As mentioned, mailing list mode seems to be the firehose. The other
"Emails" settings seem reasonably versatile to me on the face of it.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <c...@cskk.id.au>

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[Christopher Barker]

OT:

Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system “discord”?

dis·cord

/ˈdiskôrd/

noun

1. 1. 

   disagreement between people.

   "a prosperous family who showed no signs of discord"

   
   

“Naming things is hard” — but really? 

-CHB

--

Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
  - Teaching
  - Scientific Software Development
  - Desktop GUI and Web Development
  - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython

[David Mertz, Ph.D.]

I feel similarly as Steven. I'm even less important to the development of CPython than he is. But like him, switching to Discourse means I simply won't try to follow development.

Mailing list are friendly and easily manageable. In the small amount I've used Discourse, it feels unwieldy and less friendly. More importantly, it makes it "that other thing I have to go check." Email is something I will automatically examine every day.

But again, I'm not the audience who matters, which I well recognize.

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[Cameron Simpson]

On 21Jul2022 17:46, Christopher Barker <pyth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>OT:
>Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system
>“discord”?

I think it is a refreshing level of honesty about what live chat is
like. As in "discordant".

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <c...@cskk.id.au>

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[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cameron Simpson writes:
> On 21Jul2022 17:46, Christopher Barker <pyth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >OT:
> >Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system
> >“discord”?
>
> I think it is a refreshing level of honesty about what live chat is
> like. As in "discordant".

I would refine "live chat" to "full-duplex multicast media"
(especially with rampant pseudonymity). Email included. ;-)

--
Ask me about RFCs 5321 and 5322!

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[Terry Reedy]

On 7/21/2022 8:46 PM, Christopher Barker wrote:
> OT:
>
> Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system “discord”?

For games, most of which involve combat, it seems appropriate. For
CPython development, 'harmony' might be better.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Terry Reedy writes:
> On 7/21/2022 8:46 PM, Christopher Barker wrote:

> > Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system “discord”?

> For games, most of which involve combat, it seems appropriate. For
> CPython development, 'harmony' might be better.

Already taken by the GNU Mailman community:
https://www.mailmanhost.com

:-)

Steve

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[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 07:06:47PM -0400, Edwin Zimmerman wrote:

> Mailing list mode is not what you want.  Instead, turn mailing list mode off and set your email settings to these:
>
>
>

> You can adjust the categories you receive email notifications for by changing your list of watched categories under the notification settings:

I think you may have missed actually inserting the settings.



--

Steve
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[Samuel Colvin]

Reading this thread and thinking about discuss.python.org/Discourse - I'm surprised no one is advocating github discussions.

In particular organisation discussions would provide an obvious central place for discussions that would be easy to find and use for everyone.

Advantages of github discussions:

• Virtually all developers have a github account and are familiar with github & GFM
• Github provides great support for participating or watching discussion via email - Discourse is really bad at this (at least by default)
• GH discussions obviously integrate well with the rest of github - links to issues & pull requests (including other repos), discussions can be moved to other repos, issues can be created from discussions, issues can be converted to discussions - e.g. if someone creates a bug report which should really be a feature discussion
• No extra service to maintain or pay for
• GH discussions (unlike issues) provide good threading functionality without the full treeview madness of hackernews etc.

Before going "all in" with discuss.python.org/Discourse I think GH discussions should be seriously considered.

Samuel

--

Samuel Colvin

On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 at 12:19, Petr Viktorin <enc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,
Currently development discussions are split between multiple
communication channels, for example:
- python-dev and discuss.python.org for design discussions,
- GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
- IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
- Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.

While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
between python-dev and discuss.python.org. It seems that for most
people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
even if we don't go with that person's favorite.

The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing out.

The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
discuss.python.org.
Practically, this means:
- Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
- Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page
(https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
- And that's it?

I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org.

To be clear, discuss.python.org allows editing posts, which is frankly
handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used for
adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
few places.

We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org website,
but there are some ways to avoid it:

- For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss – it's not e-mail, but many
email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/)
for important questions and discussions.

- You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
messages locally.

However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
we make the final decision.



– Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council

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[Brett Cannon]

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 3:45 AM Samuel Colvin <S...@muelcolvin.com> wrote:

Reading this thread and thinking about discuss.python.org/Discourse - I'm surprised no one is advocating github discussions.

I think it's because discuss.python.org is what we decided to try years ago at the 2018 core dev sprint (so nearly 4 years ago), while GitHub Discussions would be a brand new thing to try and get people on board with.

 

In particular organisation discussions would provide an obvious central place for discussions that would be easy to find and use for everyone.

Advantages of github discussions:

• Virtually all developers have a github account and are familiar with github & GFM

Discourse lets you log in via GitHub. I'm not sure if Discourse is straight Commonmark (probably is, though, since the co-creator of Discourse kicked off Commonmark because of Discourse).

 

• Github provides great support for participating or watching discussion via email - Discourse is really bad at this (at least by default)
• GH discussions obviously integrate well with the rest of github - links to issues & pull requests (including other repos), discussions can be moved to other repos, issues can be created from discussions, issues can be converted to discussions - e.g. if someone creates a bug report which should really be a feature discussion

True, but that does make the discussion specific to the repo, which in this instance would be CPython and somewhat the language itself. This doesn't encompass something like packaging which has completely moved all development discussions over to discuss.python.org (and people have been generally happy with it). So I'm not sure if moving over to Discussions would actually lead to discuss.python.org going anywhere if you were trying to eliminate that need.

 

• No extra service to maintain or pay for

This is already true for discuss.python.org; Discourse is kindly donating the hosting on their SaaS platform.

• GH discussions (unlike issues) provide good threading functionality without the full treeview madness of hackernews etc.

Before going "all in" with discuss.python.org/Discourse I think GH discussions should be seriously considered.

If you can get people excited enough to say they are willing to give it a try, and the folks saying they are going to stop participating if/when we move to Discourse would actually stay if we moved to Discussions, then we can definitely talk about it.

-Brett

 

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[Samuel Colvin]

Hi Brett, I understand your points.

I think the main point of difference is the gap in usability between GitHub discussions and Discourse - I think it's massive, but I understand others will be less enamoured by GitHub and less frustrated by Discourse than me.

One correction:

but that does make the discussion specific to the repo

With Organisation Discussions, discussions are attached to the organisation, not a repr.

Samuel

--

Samuel Colvin

[Christopher Barker]

One thing I’ve noticed and found disappointing with discourse is that it seems to lose the markdown formatting in both emails and quoting in replies.

It really effects the readability, partly when there’s code that loses its formatting :-(

I don’t know that that affects  this discussion-/ but maybe one more big report / feature request.

And it’s one more pro for GH discussions- GH is built for code, so much more likely to support it well. 

Coincidentally, I just noticed GH discussions today — the setuptools project is using it.

[Steven Barker]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:42 PM Steven Barker <blck...@gmail.com> wrote:

So last night I tried activating mailing list mode [...]

To follow up on my own post, here's an update. I figured out that I'd done something incorrectly the first time I tried muting certain categories of posts on Discourse. I think I just failed to save my choices in the settings screen, and I got it right the second time I tried. The firehose was tamed to a reasonable rate of flow.

I do still think that experience is much worse than signing up for just the python-dev mailing list. While excluding the Users (now Python Help), Ideas and Packaging categories has cut out most of the stuff I don't care about, there are a lot of low-volume categories that I probably don't care about either, but I don't know enough about them to tell. I'd rather be able to opt-in to categories I want instead of opting out to everything I don't want. I have low confidence in my understanding of Discourse settings, but I don't currently believe that setting a category as Watched does the same thing as mailing list mode, for that category only, but I could be wrong (I've not tried it). I don't want summary emails, and that seems to be the only thing on offer. And there isn't a generalized Dev category that covers the range of topics that the python-dev mailing list does.

So to give my final takeaway: It might be possible for Discourse to replace Python-dev, even for those who wish to get their messages by email. But the user experience of signing up is vastly worse, and will need much more than a single paragraph in the dev-guide for most people to have a satisfying experience with mailing list mode (or some other mode that I don't yet know how to use).

[Zachary Ware]

On Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 19:33 Steven Barker <blck...@gmail.com> wrote:

So to give my final takeaway: It might be possible for Discourse to replace Python-dev, even for those who wish to get their messages by email. But the user experience of signing up is vastly worse, and will need much more than a single paragraph in the dev-guide for most people to have a satisfying experience with mailing list mode (or some other mode that I don't yet know how to use).

Do please write out some notes about what needs to be added/updated while it's still fresh for you; even if it's not a complete PR, I would be happy to help you get it merged into the devguide.  It's been too long since I (and probably many of the rest of us) got things how we want them to remember clearly enough what needs documentation.

--

Zach

(On a phone)

[Petr Viktorin]

On 21. 07. 22 9:01, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 21Jul2022 13:25, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephenj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Cameron Simpson writes:
>>> Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some
>>> headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year"
>>> thread:
>>>
>>> Message-ID: <topic/17208/60568.898edf234...@discuss.python.org>
>>> In-Reply-To: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>
>>> References: <topic/17...@discuss.python.org>
>>
>> I'm tempted to write something uncivil, but instead I'm gonna go hug a
>> puppy and weep.
>>
>>> So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to
>>> submit a bug report.
>>
>> Thank you!
>
> Bug report:
>
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-email-messages-are-incorrectly-threaded/233499

Thank you very much for reporting it and working with Discourse devs!

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[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 18/07/2022 à 13:45, Baptiste Carvello a écrit :
> Le 15/07/2022 à 17:52, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
>>
>> For everything on Discourse, the RSS feed is at
>> https://discuss.python.org/latest.rss
>> For a specific categoriy/topic, append .rss to the Web URL.
>
> [...]
> Is there a way to access all posts through the mail/RSS client,
> preferably with a threaded view?

TL;DR: almost there, but not there yet. A few fixes are needed in
Discourse for RSS to become a viable reading strategy.

Hi all,

reviving this old thread to try and answer my own question. For the last
month (which included a ten-day vacation), I've tried using core-dev.rss
or posts.rss (with Thunderbird). Both give a very frustrating feeling of
"almost there, but definitely not there yet":

* core-dev.rss: does its job at listing which topics get discussed. The
first post is usually enough to decide whether I'm interested or not.
Being a web browser below the surface, Thunderbird even has a "web page
mode" that permits reading the discourse thread page embedded in it
(much slower that text, but surprisingly without nag screens).

Except that threads older than a few days are scrubbed from the rss
file, even when the thread continues. So when I come back from vacation,
I not only lose past discussions (which is fair game), but also still
current ones.

Also, core-dev.rss can provide no indication when new activity happens
on a given thread, so I have to reopen them all in "web page mode"
(slowwwww) just to check.

* posts.rss: can be used efficiently together with Thunderbird's sorting
features. I first sort by "date" to find current discussions, select an
interesting post, them sort by "object" to see the full thread.

The problem is with the volume. Not only are all messages included, but
Discourse doesn't provide the "category" rss tag, which Thunderbird
could use to tag the messages.

Adding a per-category posts.rss has been a feature request to Discourse
since 2016 [1], but "hasn’t happened yet", as the Discourse developers
put it. No patch was asked for, so I presume they just see the use case
as very unimportant.

[1]: https://meta.discourse.org/t/rss-feed-for-category-latest/37192

Perhaps someone with an official status in the Python community could
approach the Discourse developers and weight in so that:

* still current threads are not so aggressively scrubbed from core-dev.rss;

and/or
* "category" tags are added to posts.rss;

and/or
* per-category posts.rss are finally implemented.

Cheers,
Baptiste

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[Cameron Simpson]

On 15Jul2022 13:26, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>To me, that’s the biggest negative of Discourse, and I definitely prefer threaded discussions. Unfortunately though, much like top posting <wink>, I think that horse is out of the barn, what with other forums like GitHub being linear.

On Jul 15, 2022, at 11:59, Ethan Furman <et...@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> How do you handle threading? I follow each (sub)thread through to
>> it's end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse has everything
>> linear which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping
>> around, making it hard to follow.

Threading on the Python Discourse should now be working correctly. This
is the good work of Martin Brennan: https://meta.discourse.org/u/martin

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <c...@cskk.id.au>

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[Barry Warsaw]

> Threading on the Python Discourse should now be working correctly. This is the good work of Martin Brennan: https://meta.discourse.org/u/martin

I’m not sure what “working correctly” means. Do you have some examples on discuss.python.org where threading is used? Is this something that previous discussions get for free or only new replies? I’m not finding much information about this feature on the Discourse site.

-Barry

[Cameron Simpson]

The email side of Discourse now correctly sets the In-Reply-To and
References headers, so that the email side discussions no longer appear
"flat" and threads can be read in order. Example View of a recent thread
from my mailer:

28Sep2022 01:58 Stone Zhong via N ┌> discuss-ideas 5.7K
27Sep2022 19:21 Serhiy Storchak N │┌> discuss-ideas 6.1K
27Sep2022 19:16 Václav Brožík v N ├> discuss-ideas 7.2K
27Sep2022 18:57 Serhiy Storchak N ┌> discuss-ideas 6.1K
27Sep2022 17:07 Stone Zhong via N [Py] [Ideas] Improve dqeue discuss-ideas 7.5K

(I sort my email a bit backwards.) This would have been a flat
nontopologically ordered grouping a few days ago.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <c...@cskk.id.au>
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[Barry Warsaw]

Oh, I see, thanks. This is for the email interface, not the web interface.

-Barry

[Victor Stinner]

What happened to this SC decision (move to Discourse)? People started
again to write on python-dev. So what's going on?

Should I reply on python-dev? Ask to move to Discourse?

Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?

Victor

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[Petr Viktorin]

On 01. 12. 22 17:28, Victor Stinner wrote:
> What happened to this SC decision (move to Discourse)? People started
> again to write on python-dev. So what's going on?

PEPs must be announced on Discourse.
For discussions you can use any medium. A list, Discord, IRC, in-person
chat...

> Should I reply on python-dev? Ask to move to Discourse?

There's no issue with replying to python-dev.
If you want to reach a wider audience than python-dev, move to Discourse.

> Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?

If people are using it, and mods are moderating it, no.


– Petr (as myself, without authority)

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[Gregory P. Smith]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner <vsti...@python.org> wrote:

Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?

I'd be in favor of this. Or at least setting up an auto-responder suggesting people post on discuss.python.org instead.

-gps

[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 02/12/2022 à 10:09, Gregory P. Smith a écrit :
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner <vsti...@python.org
> <mailto:vsti...@python.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?
>
>
> I'd be in favor of this.

Why? Californian firms won't let their employees use an unmoderated
forum for fear of liability: OK, so be it. But that's no reason to force
other people to use tools they dislike. "Modern tools" hegemonism is
little more than pure intolerance.

Or at least setting up an auto-responder

> suggesting people post on discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>
> instead.

Just put a line in the list signature stating that discussions requiring
core-dev attention should happen on discourse, and be done.

Cheers,
Baptiste

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[Brett Cannon]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 8:17 AM Baptiste Carvello <deve...@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:

Le 02/12/2022 à 10:09, Gregory P. Smith a écrit :
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner <vsti...@python.org
> <mailto:vsti...@python.org>> wrote:
>
>
>     Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?
>
>
> I'd be in favor of this.

Why?

Because in the past people have complained about having too many places to keep track of discussions (and this goes in both directions; some people don't read email regularly while others live in their inbox). Since we are promoting/pushing folks to use discuss.python.org it means this mailing list starts to feel like more of a burden/excess.

-Brett

 

Californian firms won't let their employees use an unmoderated
forum for fear of liability: OK, so be it. But that's no reason to force
other people to use tools they dislike.

We are just saying that we may, as a team, not want to be the people providing a mailing list for folks to use to discuss Python development. Or at the very least not make it feel like a requirement for core devs to monitor this mailing list like it has been in the past. If people choose to keep using email then they can choose to do so on their own, just like IRC or any other place people chat.

-Brett

[Gordon R. Burgess]

I am a long time lurker here*, a professional and educational user of
the language, a list moderator with practical exeperience managing a
engaged community of a few thousand users over the course of a decade -
and yes, I am old.

I saw what happened when the young developers there insisted that we'd
all be much happier with a threaded forum - so nice, if what you want
is to browse a web page, or to find all of the points in a (hopefully)
threaded discussion.

We were all assured that we could continue to participate in the new
forum in whatever way we wanted, and in particular that access by email
would be just as nice as ever.

That community still has a website, and I suppose people post on it,
but as I am not the equivalent of a "core dev" I have no reason to post
there, and more to the point the community has migrated away from the
comerderie that was widely experienced on the discussion lists.

The email communities died, and anyone who didn't have to "work" for
the organization went elsewhere.

So my observation is that the loudest voices for retiring an email list
(or IRC channel) will be exactly the people that don't use those
things, and seem to think no one else does either. I can readily allow
that those of you who do the work here and sort stuff out will find
utility in a threaded forum - but if you lose the list, it won't come
back. Perhaps "you" don't care - things change, and user preferences
shift. I wouldn't want my preferences to constrain how the core devs
do their work. But if you do not enjoy getting emails, perhaps you
should remember that some of us do.

Gordon

*i joined to raise an issue regarding the re library that seemed
significant to me at the time, and decided that what you all were doing
was interesting enough for me to continue to follow as it unfolded

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[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 02/12/2022 à 18:49, Brett Cannon a écrit :
>
> Since we are promoting/pushing folks to use discuss.python.org

Until now I've seen more "pushing" (with sticks) than "promoting" (with
carrots).

Since august I've been looking for a way to follow the discussions on
discourse without using the heavy and annoying web interface, or
building a whole stack of filters on my side. It's annoyingly close to
working with RSS: "posts.rss" would just need to keep entries for a
longer time, and include category information.

I regret that there seems to be zero interest in fixing those last
glitches and making RSS really work.

> <http://discuss.python.org> it means this mailing list starts to feel

> like more of a burden/excess.

The "burden" of keeping one additional list on an existing platform is
moderate. Nobody would be forced to read it, but interesting ideas would
surely be copied over to discourse at some point.

All the death clamors are way premature, and either relate to the
"sticks" tactics, or to the usual intolerance of "modern tools" converts.

Baptiste
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[Barney Gale]

Perspective from a minor Python contributor:

The only thing worse than email or Discourse is email AND Discourse. Fragmented communities are a nightmare. I don't want to post to multiple places in order to reach the devs. Its hard enough to build consensus already. The relative strengths of email vs discourse pale in comparison to the dangers of fragmentation IMO.

I prefer mailing lists personally, but theyve been losing out to web forums for 20 years now. In my view, switching solely to Discourse would help ensure the vitality of the Python community for years to come.

Barney

[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 04/12/2022 à 16:55, Barney Gale a écrit :
>
> I don't want to post to multiple
> places in order to reach the devs.

Nobody proposed that. In order to reach the devs, you use discourse (or
have someone else do it on your behalf).

Just let the "second circle" of the community keep their mailing list,
as this second circle just won't switch to a specialized, and quite
unflexible tool.

Yeah, without most core devs, this list might be more akin to
python-ideas than the old python-dev. But it makes sense to keep the
bigger following it has grown over the years.

> I prefer mailing lists personally, but theyve been losing out to web
> forums for 20 years now.

This is historically untrue. In technical communities, web forums have
been considered second class tools until some 5 years ago, with
mailing-lists being seen as lighter, more flexible and more capable.

Then they began loosing to *heavily moderated* web forums because of the
insistence on moderation. Yeah, smartphones with no capable mail client
played a role too.

Cheers,

Baptiste
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[Barney Gale]

Oh brilliant. I'll unsubscribe from this list then. It sounds like the only people using it will be those folks who think their tooling preferences are more important than creating a joined-up Python community; I can survive without their input.

On Sun, 4 Dec 2022, 19:53 Baptiste Carvello, <deve...@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:

Le 04/12/2022 à 16:55, Barney Gale a écrit :
>
> I don't want to post to multiple
> places in order to reach the devs.

Nobody proposed that. In order to reach the devs, you use discourse (or
have someone else do it on your behalf).

Just let the "second circle" of the community keep their mailing list,
as this second circle just won't switch to a specialized, and quite
unflexible tool.

Yeah, without most core devs, this list might be more akin to
python-ideas than the old python-dev. But it makes sense to keep the
bigger following it has grown over the years.

> I prefer mailing lists personally, but theyve been losing out to web
> forums for 20 years now.

This is historically untrue. In technical communities, web forums have
been considered second class tools until some 5 years ago, with
mailing-lists being seen as lighter, more flexible and more capable.

Invision Power Board, PHPBB and others supplanted mailing lists in the early 00s. Programming communities took longer because they disproportionately attract folks with strong and inflexible preferences.

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2022 at 08:20:56PM +0000, Barney Gale wrote:

> Oh brilliant. I'll unsubscribe from this list then. It sounds like the only
> people using it will be those folks who think their tooling preferences are
> more important than creating a joined-up Python community; I can survive
> without their input.

My, what a hot take you have there.

Did you consider that we already had "a joined-up Python community"
until a subset of people decided to split off to use Discuss to satisfy
*their* tooling preferences?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhaY1hRDYBg

--
Steve

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[Antoine Pitrou]

On Fri, 02 Dec 2022 18:41:44 -0500
"Gordon R. Burgess" <gor...@parasamgate.com> wrote:
> I am a long time lurker here*, a professional and educational user of
> the language, a list moderator with practical exeperience managing a
> engaged community of a few thousand users over the course of a decade -
> and yes, I am old.
>
> I saw what happened when the young developers there insisted that we'd
> all be much happier with a threaded forum - so nice, if what you want
> is to browse a web page, or to find all of the points in a (hopefully)
> threaded discussion.

Well, those developers are not so "young" for the most part :-)

Regards

Antoine.

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[Barney Gale]

On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 at 01:00, Steven D'Aprano <st...@pearwood.info> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 04, 2022 at 08:20:56PM +0000, Barney Gale wrote:

> Oh brilliant. I'll unsubscribe from this list then. It sounds like the only
> people using it will be those folks who think their tooling preferences are
> more important than creating a joined-up Python community; I can survive
> without their input.

My, what a hot take you have there.

Did you consider that we already had "a joined-up Python community"
until a subset of people decided to split off to use Discuss to satisfy
*their* tooling preferences?

I did; I think it was a mistake to start discourse without a plan for shutting down this mailing list.

Two wrongs don't make a right, though.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhaY1hRDYBg

--
Steve

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Barney Gale writes:

> I did; I think it was a mistake to start discourse without a plan for
> shutting down this mailing list.

"Start"? When it was started it was an experiment. Nobody had a
strong take on whether Discourse would really take off or not, or even
whether there might be a dual-channel mode (admittedly that was
relatively unlikely IMO then). Planning to shut down the mailing list
wasn't a good idea.

Pretty quickly a lot of conversations moved to Discourse (surprisingly
to me). But there was still a fair amount of resistance, and a number
of people requested at minimum better threading for the Discourse mail
interface, which took a while but eventually was accomplished. IMO
its only been in the last 4-6 months that shutting down Python-Dev
became a realistic option, as traffic disappeared and the biggest
common complaint about Discourse was mostly resolved[1].

AFAICS the biggest issue with keeping Python-Dev is that it allows the
hope that dev conversations will return to email, and that just seems
unlikely to me. A few people will try to use it, and they'll be
directed to Discourse after short conversations. The only real cost I
see is to the admins, and that's almost zero for the site admin. I
can't speak to the cost to moderators. If they're sick of it, I'd say
we can make the list read-only (ie, archive-only) pretty much any
time. I'd be sad, but I get the feeling that the only people left
reading it are "here for the community", not to develop code, which is
happening over on Discourse.

I'm sure it would be easy[2] to modify the list of moderation options so
that moderators can with discard spam, or send a canned "go post on
Discourse, here's an introduction to Python Discourse" message to
RealPeople[tm].


Footnotes:
[1] That's maybe a little unfair. As a Mailman dev and mailing list
fan, I've thought a lot about this, and I believe there is a fundamental
difference between the completely asynchronous mail protocol and the
much more synchronous messaging protocol imposed by most forum
software, specifically Discourse.

[2] Mailman devs would help, obviously we love Python and would be
happy to contribute back.

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[Baptiste Carvello]

Hi,

Le 05/12/2022 à 14:50, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
>
> I'd be sad, but I get the feeling that the only people left

> reading it are "here for the community", not to develop code, …
I think this is indeed true, but that's nothing to be sad about: "being
here for the community" is not wrong or shameful.

Since forever, python-dev has attracted a large following of enthusiast
Python users, who want to understand the design choices of their
preferred language. This widely shared concern for writing idiomatic
code is a distinguishing trait of the Python community (the whole
culture of "pythonic" code).

Now maybe this is a place where the mailman devs could help and make a
real difference: what if this list would become, not archive-only, but a
*read-only mirror* of those parts of Discourse that are relevant for
core development? That would mean setting up a pipeline starting with
Discourse's so-called "mailing-list mode", going through the kind of
filter stack that some core developers have been setting up for their
personal use, and feeding into this mailing list. The last part can only
be done with the powers of the mailman admins.

Being read-only would not be a problem in practice: non core-devs here
read much more than they post (as they should). Being forced to log into
a specific website is an acceptable roadblock once in a while for
posting, just not every day for simply following the discussions.

Turning this list into a relevant mirror of Discourse is the nicest
course of action for the hundreds of silent readers python-dev has
gathered over the years. All those people *won't* switch to routinely
visiting the Discourse website, no matter how much pushing and wishful
thinking the Steering Council puts into it. Shutting down the list means
kicking them away, more or less overtly.

Cheers,
Baptiste

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[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Baptiste Carvello writes:
> Le 05/12/2022 à 14:50, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
> >
> > I'd be sad, but I get the feeling that the only people left
> > reading it are "here for the community", not to develop code, …

> I think this is indeed true, but that's nothing to be sad about:

I'm sad because of the prospect of shutting down the list, because

> "being here for the community" is not wrong or shameful.

Far from it! It's why I'm here.

> Now maybe this is a place where the mailman devs could help and make a
> real difference: what if this list would become, not archive-only, but a
> *read-only mirror* of those parts of Discourse that are relevant for
> core development? That would mean setting up a pipeline starting with
> Discourse's so-called "mailing-list mode", going through the kind of
> filter stack that some core developers have been setting up for their
> personal use, and feeding into this mailing list. The last part can only
> be done with the powers of the mailman admins.

The only thing in what you've described that requires admin powers is
shutting off the default ability to post, and then enabling Discourse
to post. None of this *requires* the help of Mailman devs.

> Turning this list into a relevant mirror of Discourse is the nicest
> course of action for the hundreds of silent readers python-dev has
> gathered over the years.

This does seem like an approach that gives 95% of everybody at least
95% of what they want. (In the other 5% of everybody there are the
core devs who strongly prefer email, a constituency important beyond
their numbers, but to do their work they need to communicate with
other core devs and it seems likely 90% of them will be on Discourse,
so....)

Steve

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[Petr Viktorin]

I'd like to point out that the SC decision was *reactive*, after most
discussions moved to Discourse without SC pushing.

I liked the list myself! But as soon as most of the posts were mandatory
PEP and release notices, it stopped being useful.

> Shutting down the list means
> kicking them away, more or less overtly.

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[John Ehresman]

I’ve found that using mailing list mode to lurk on discuss.python.org works well. I’ve set up rules on my local mail client to archive what I don’t want in my inbox; I have 4 rules in place now, though I’m interested in a bit more than what was typically on python-dev.

Cheers,

John

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[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 07/12/2022 à 11:57, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
>
> I'd like to point out that the SC decision was *reactive*, after most
> discussions moved to Discourse without SC pushing.
>
> I liked the list myself! But as soon as most of the posts were mandatory
> PEP and release notices, it stopped being useful.

Well, that's only taking into account the posting side. On the reading
side, I reckon that many more people (more or less) silently read
python-dev than Discourse.

Cheers,
Baptiste

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[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 07/12/2022 à 16:11, John Ehresman a écrit :
> I’ve found that using mailing list mode to lurk on discuss.python.org works well. I’ve set up rules on my local mail client to archive what I don’t want in my inbox; I have 4 rules in place now, though I’m interested in a bit more than what was typically on python-dev.

I trust you that mailing list mode can work, once you've refined your
filter rules. Others have posted similar results.

However, each user writing their own filter rules doesn't scale well.
Most people just won't do it.

If this list really is to be shut down with no continuation, hopefully
we'll be given advance warning and allowed some more time to exchange
working, refined recipes.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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[Abdullah Nafees]

I am a new community member and extremely eager to contribute.

I am just adding my two cents here. Apart from the core-mentorship list, I have not found any other list useful. Discourse is impactful and has a quite low turnaround time. I have been answering questions in the forum and from what I can tell, people find it easy to post formatted code snippets and other media.

Regards,

Abdullah 

LinkedIn.

[Barry Warsaw]

On Dec 7, 2022, at 02:57, Petr Viktorin <enc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd like to point out that the SC decision was *reactive*, after most discussions moved to Discourse without SC pushing.
>
> I liked the list myself! But as soon as most of the posts were mandatory PEP and release notices, it stopped being useful.

Just another data point on the switch to Discourse. I was personally invested in mailing lists, having been the project leader for GNU Mailman for 20+ years (retired a few years now). Python-dev email was a central and indispensable part of my daily workflow. Gradually as more discussions moved to Discourse, so did I. I recently also turned off email notifications for GitHub and just use the GH UI for that. I absolutely love not having to slog through hundreds of emails before my first shots of caffeine, and I can now pull from Discourse or GH when it’s convenient for me. It’s also much easier to disengage for a few days and catch up later.

I have my complaints about Discourse, but for me the benefits far outweigh the negatives. My email is manageable again and I’m not going back!

That said, I don’t think python-dev should be shut down just yet, but it sure is nice to not be overwhelmed and stressed out every single day by the bloat in my Python inbox.

-Barry

[Simon Cross]

> I can now pull from Discourse or GH when it’s convenient for me. It’s also much easier to disengage for a few days and catch up later.

I have a question about how you handle multiple communities. I'm
subscribed to ~30 python-dev style mailing lists across different
projects. There is no way I can open up 30 Discourse sites each day.
Mail brings everything into one place for me, and I have things setup
so that new mail from python-dev style lists is separated from my
general inbox.

Are you not subscribed to a bunch of communities? Or is there some way
you aggregate or visit each forum that works nicely?

Regards,
Simon

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[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Barry Warsaw writes:
> I absolutely love not having to slog through hundreds of emails
> before my first shots of caffeine, and I can now pull from
> Discourse or GH when it’s convenient for me. It’s also much easier
> to disengage for a few days and catch up later.

I absolutely cannot imagine slogging through hundreds of posts in the
Discourse interface. Couldn't this be, as Baptiste suggests, a
symptom of people disengaging and there just being less traffic? Or
is it somehow being channeled better so that you're only seeing what
interests you now?

In particular I have to suspect that a boatload of those were
python-committers mails that are now basically obsolete (can't say, I
never have sought enough responsibility that I needed to subscribe to
that firehose). But that would help with python-dev/ideas too.

Steve

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[Skip Montanaro]

I have a question about how you handle multiple communities. I'm
subscribed to ~30 python-dev style mailing lists across different
projects. There is no way I can open up 30 Discourse sites each day.
Mail brings everything into one place for me, and I have things setup
so that new mail from python-dev style lists is separated from my
general inbox.

+1

I have other interests outside Python. Email filters allow me to categorize email automatically, saving messages in folders which wait for me to get around to that category.

Considering the explosion of outlets for Python discussion, I will relate a recent unfortunate incident I don't think would have happened a couple years ago. I won't name names, but I won't go out of my way to keep the parties from being discovered. Someone posted a note to the [Python Help] forum on discuss.python.org recently stating Python had an obvious memory leak. I tried to help, explaining what I thought he needed to do to demonstrate a leak. He posted a small C program which initialized, then immediately finalized the Python runtime, and basically said, "this is a memory leak." I pointed out that you need to loop over the same operation to determine if you really have a leak. Back and forth for a bit.

Finally, I said, "if you believe this to be a memory leak, then you should open an issue on GitHub." My intent was to get his argument in front of the people who really are the experts on Python's memory management. His response, "Oh, I already have, here and here and here." What a nice way to waste my time... I imagine he was trolling, but maybe he was just dissatisfied with the responses he got on GH and thought he could get someone to go to bat for him.

My thinking is this would likely have not happened in the olden days when almost all Python development/programming traffic was housed in python-list and python-dev.Granted, the Python community was smaller, but, perhaps just as importantly, a couple active core developers always seemed to keep an eye on python-list. It seems likely that someone would have seen this thread and nipped it in the bud early. "I responded to your issue a couple months ago and explained why this isn't a memory leak. Now go away." Today, I don't recall noticing core developers on the [Python Help] forum. (I could well be wrong, but the web interface doesn't make it obvious at-a-glance who's posted to a thread from the summary page. It's tiny avatars all the way down.)

The flip side of that is that if you want to ask a question about something, it's less obvious where to post that question. The fragmented community means you stand a greater chance of guessing wrong and have it not be seen by anyone who can help.

Just my 2¢

Skip