Fw: Like Dalits, the Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should have Their own Priests
173 views
Skip to first unread message
Ashok T. Jaisinghani
May 9, 2011, 4:53:31 AM5/9/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Ashok T.
Jaisinghani
Cc: Aditi Banerjee ; Bhagavaandaas
Tyaagi ; Hindu American Foundation ; Mihir Meghani (HAF)
; sandesh ; The Indian Post
Sent: 27 Apr 2011 3:29 PM
Subject: Fw: Like Dalits, the Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should have
Their own Priests
Like Dalits, the
Kshatriyas & Vaishyas
Should have Their own
Priests
For
thousands of years, the worst atrocities have been committed against the
untouchable lower castes in India at the behest of the extremely arrogant
Brahmins. Many Brahmins want to continue the highly divisive hereditary
caste system because they staunchly believe that their caste is divine, and they
must be worshipped as the Gods on Earth by all the other castes of the Hindu
community.
The
bigoted Brahmins still advocate and justify the discrimination based on the
hereditary caste system, discrimination against women, untouchability, the
Devadaasi system of prostitution and practice of adultery, polygamy, slavery,
the custom of Satee, etc. They also continue to oppose the appointment of
priests and teachers from the lower castes. Even today, many Brahmins
refuse to accept reforms, which call for the eradication of many wrong
beliefs and evil practices among the Hindus.
The bigoted
Brahmins continue to believe in their own divinity and advocate
the worship of Brahmins as the Gods on Earth who can treat all
the working class people as Shudras or hereditary slaves. They also want
all the Hindus to drink cow's urine and eat bullshit. In short, the bigoted
Brahmins want to bring back the same old fascism and totalitarianism of their
bigoted ancestors. If they have their way, such bigoted Brahmins can
only bring many more misfortunes and disasters to
India.
Treacherous Divide & Rule Policy of
Brahmins
For their own extremely selfish interests,
many Brahmins have followed the Divide And Rule Policy ever since they created
the caste system in ancient India many thousand years back. It does not matter
for such selfish Brahmins whether the highly divisive caste system has always
weakened the Hindu community and even brought India under the rule of foreigners
for many centuries.
The caste system of the bigoted Brahmins
had prevented the majority of the Vaishyas and Shudras from fighting
against the invaders. Why are the Brahmins
indulging in just empty talk about the teachings of the Bhaagvad Geeta,
Puraans and Upanishads, when the lower castes among the Hindus have been
terrorized for many centuries due to the extremely evil ideology
of Brahminism?
Raavan Symbolizes Debauchery of Brahmins
We must remember
that in the great epic, Raamaayan, the most evil Brahmin King Raavan is
described as the descendant of Brahma, whom all the Brahmins worship
as their God and ancestor. The Brahmin King Raavan symbolizes the worst
debauchees among the bigoted Brahmins who believe in and practise polygamy,
abduction, rape, adultery, fraud, murder and other crimes.
There are many cranks among the Brahmins who still want
all the Hindus to believe that their debauchee Brahmin ancestors were
responsible for saving and preserving the great culture and spiritual
heritage of the Hindus! Could such debauchee Brahmins have provided
the proper leadership to the Hindus? Yet, these Brahmin debauchees
have the great gumption to give sermons on the lofty virtues and
benefits of Brahmacharya, which is the name they use for
celibacy that they themselves don't
practise.
Why did
Godse kill Mahatma Gandhi?
The whole
world knows about the crime of the TERRORIST Nathuram Godse who killed Mahatma
Gandhi. Many Brahmins still consider Nathuram Godse as one of the greatest
patriotic heroes of India, whose idols are worshipped by the bigoted
Brahmins, especially in the state of Maharashtra.
We should note that Nathuram Godse
was NOT the ONLY Brahmin who had conspired to kill Mahatma Gandhi. A
number of bigoted Brahmins were part of the Nathuram Godse gang who had hatched
the Brahmin conspiracy to murder Mahatma Gandhi.
The blame for the Partition of India is
still wrongly being put by the bigoted Brahmins on Mahatma Gandhi who was
absolutely against the Partition of our country. The other top leaders of
the Indian National Congress had actually decided to partition India without
even consulting Mahatma Gandhi. The real facts of History prove that it was
Jawaharlal Nehru, Vallabhbhai Patel and other Congress leaders who forced
Mahatma Gandhi to accept their decision to partition India.
As the leader of the
Interim Government and the Constituent Assembly, Jawaharlal Nehru was the main
person who was legally responsible for the Partition of India, but the bigoted
Brahmin Nathuram Godse could never even dream about killing another Brahmin
like Nehru for the crime. After the Independence, the bigoted Brahmins decided
that somebody had to be blamed for the Partition of India and must be killed for
that crime.
So the
bigoted Brahmin Nathuram Godse chose to kill Mahatma Gandhi only because he
was a lowly Vaishya who had become too important and too popular for the
comfort of all the bigoted Brahmins. By killing Mahatma Gandhi, Nathuram Godse
actually helped a fellow Brahmin, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, to
consolidate the rule of Brahmins over India.
What
can the Hindus of other castes expect from the Brahmins who
proudly worship the bigoted Brahmin Nathuram Godse who murdered Mahatma
Gandhi? Many of the atrocities committed against the
lower castes and outcastes are also a form of terrorism, which has been
practised for thousands of years due to the evil ideology of the Brahmins.
Even if they have the most pleasant manners, many
Brahmins are mentally and ideologically some of the most merciless fascists and
totalitarians in the world. Such cunning Brahmins know how to make use of their
knowledge of Psychology to exploit the people of other castes.
Like any other human
being, Mahatma Gandhi too was not a perfect person. Even though he was
called the Father of the Nation by his followers, Mahatma Gandhi could never
have been perfect like what God is believed to be. One of his biggest
faults was his inability to see through the flattery of the most cunning Brahmin
like Jawaharlal Nehru, who knew how to use Gandhiji for achieving his own
selfish goals. Jawaharlal Nehru had succeeded in using Mahatma Gandhi even
to become the first Prime Minister of free India, though the majority of
Congressmen had preferred Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, a Kshatriya, for that
post.
Some centuries back, the Brahmin Peshwas had usurped
power from the Maratha kings who were the descendants of Chhatrapati Shivaji,
the founder of the Maratha Empire.
With
the help of their Divide And Rule Policy, the cunning and crafty Brahmins
are always conspiring to grab power from the Kshatriyas and steal the wealth of
the Vaishyas. The bigoted Brahmins believe that all the laws and regulations
made by them are meant only for the other castes to follow. The same laws and
regulations do not apply to the Brahmins who can break them at any time it
suits them.
Brahmins worship Mass Murderer
Parshuram
How evil is the ideology of Brahminism can be very
clearly understood from the story of the Brahmin called Parshuram, who had
killed all the Kshatriyas of the world. According to Hindu
mythology, Maharishi Parshuram was a mass murderer and a TERRORIST who
killed all the Kshatriyas 21 times. The bigoted
Brahmins feel extremely proud while referring to the GENOCIDE of Kshatriyas
committed by Maharishi Parshuram, whom the Brahmins consider as one of their
greatest ancestors. Why do the Brahmins proudly worship
their most ruthless mythological ancestor who had committed the total genocide
of the Kshatriya caste?
One can only guess how cruel and evil Brahminism can
be from the story of the mass murderer Parshuram, who can be described as a demon many times more evil
than even another monster Brahmin called Raavan. Should it be surprising to
know why the Brahmins very proudly worship the monster
Maharishi Parshuram as one of their most important
Gods?
The bigoted Brahmins have been very cunning in comparing the
extremely ruthless mass murderer Maharishi Parshuram with the most highly
revered Hindu Gods like Raam and Krishna! After all, Maharishi Parshuram was a Brahmin who could commit mass
murders, and still be considered right by the bigoted Brahmins, because the
Brahmins believe that they can never be wrong. Is it not clear that the Brahmins
believe in practising GENOCIDE?
Bigoted Brahmins have
planned
GENOCIDE of 400 million
Hindus!
Most of the Kshatriyas don't even know
that many of the bigoted Brahmins are their enemies. Does the
story of the mass murderer Maharishi Parshuram not indicate that the bigoted
Brahmins are the worst enemies of the Kshatriyas? Unfortunately, most of the
Kshatriyas have not yet realized that many Brahmins only have contempt
and hatred for the Kshatriyas. There are many Brahmins who consider the
Kshatriyas to be inferior human beings, and are constantly working against the
Kshatriyas just like they are working against the interests of
Vaishyas, Shudras and the untouchable outcastes.
Recently, the bigoted Brahmins have come out with their most diabolical
plan that can cause the world's worst GENOCIDE, in which the Brahmins
want 400 million Hindus to die while killing 200 million Indian Muslims and
Christians in a total communal war in India.
When the bigoted Brahmins have hatched a massive
conspiracy against the Hindus, Muslims and Christians of India, why
should we miss the chance of making the whole world know the real
nature of the extremely evil leaders of such Brahmins? We should get
the bigoted Brahmins discredited and condemned by all the people of the world,
including the majority of Hindus. The most dangerous criminals among the bigoted
Brahmins must be fully exposed to prevent the start of a total communal
war, which might cause the deaths of 600 million Indians.
Bigoted
Brahmins Practise Character Assassination
To denigrate the royal family of Marathas, some
bigoted Brahmins had even dared to cast aspersions on the character
of Jijabai, the revered mother of Chhatrapati Shivaji who had founded the
Maratha empire. In recent times also, such Brahmins have deliberately and
maliciously resorted to their evil practice of character assassination of
the great leaders from other castes such as Mahatma Gandhi, Dr. B. R. Ambedkar,
Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose and many
others.
Why do
the dogmatic Brahmins claim that they have the right to insult all
the Hindus of other castes and think that they are going to get away with
all their nonsense? Why should such dogmatic Brahmins expect respect from others
when they make derogatory comments about persons of other castes? We must expose
them for their extremely offensive campaign of vilification and character
assassination, which they have been continuing against others for a
long time.
To understand my point more
clearly, you should read what a Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader, Prof (Dr)
Radhasyam Brahmachari has said about the father of Raam who is the most revered
God of the Hindus:
"It also seems to me that
Dasharath was not the biological father of Ram and
his three brothers. Their biological father was Rishi Hrishyashringa."
According to Prof Radhasyam Brahmachari, Raam and his three
brothers were the illegitimate sons of a Brahmin called Rishi Hrishyashringa.
Does he mean to say that the most
revered God of the Hindus was a bastard son of some Brahmin called Rishi
Hrishyashringa!
Why has he started a dangerous controversy, which can prove to be
more explosive than the one created by some objectionable references
in James Laine's book about Chhatrapati Shivaji, his mother Jijabai and the
Brahmin called Dadoji Konddev?
While
the controversy about the Brahmin Dadoji Konddev, caused by the Brahmins who
assisted James Laine in writing his book, is mainly restricted to
Maharashtra, the highly dangerous controversy that Prof Radhasyam
Brahmachari has created about Raam's biological father is likely to affect all
the Hindus of India and the rest of the world.
Why should we not
condemn such dogmatic Brahmins, who have criminal intentions, merely because
they belong to the Brahmin caste?
Bigoted
Brahmins Deliberately Provoke Us
The
bigoted Brahmins cannot have the right to launch extremely offensive campaigns
of vilification and character assassination against the Hindus of other
castes. Two years back, I had advised
them to stop their offensive tirade against me if they didn't want me to
retaliate. Instead of listening to my advice, they
just vilified me more and more, laughed at me and challenged my ability to
do anything against them. By now, I have written many articles against the
perverted beliefs and practices of the dogmatic Brahmins, which have already
been published on many websites. I cannot withdraw my articles against the
bigoted Brahmins because the articles are on the websites that belong to
others.
The modern Hindus
cannot accept the bogus belief of any Brahmin like Aditi Banerjee who,
in her letter to the Hindu American Foundation, has falsely stated,
"Manu . . . was our first law-giver and the
forefather of all humans and all Hindus, and various of our Hindu scriptures."
Who is Aditi Banerjee to claim
that Manu was the forefather of all humans and all Hindus? Can she prove
what she claims about Manu?
Was Rishi Manu the biggest
polygamist in History, due to which the Brahmins call him the forefather of
all humans? During the time he lived, did all the women become
the wives, keeps and prostitutes of Brahmin Manu? Were all the other men of
Brahmin Manu's time only a pack of hijraas (eunuchs), who
neither married any women nor produced any children? Or did the Brahmin called
Rishi Manu kill all the other men and married all the women?
Aditi Bannerjee should
read the forwarded article, Excerpts from Ancient
Brahmin Literature written by K. V. Narasimhan, to
understand how the extremely evil Manu Smriti
denigrates the women and the Shudras, who are described as hereditary
slaves that cannot be freed from slavery. Manu Smriti contains some of the most
rotten things any person can think of. The full article is being forwarded by a
separate email.
Aditi Banerjee has
justified the primitive belief of dogmatic Brahmins, which explains that the
lower castes suffer from the inequality based on hereditary discrimination
because of the Karma of their previous births. That is the most well-known way
that the bigoted Brahmins have been justifying the atrocities that are
being committed against the lower castes for thousands of years. Such a
hereditary discrimination, based on the belief in the principle of Karma of
previous lives, is still being proudly considered by the bigoted Brahmins
as the very foundation of Hinduism! Due to this false belief, the dogmatic
Brahmins have been openly declaring that they shall never agree to any major
reforms in the Hindu community.
The following are some
of the most atrocious Laws of Manu Smriti, and one from Atri
Smriti, as mentioned in the Excerpts from Ancient Brahmin
Literature:
A Brahman male can have any woman in the universe. (Manu XXVII-6 & 9).A hundred-year-old Kshatriya must treat a ten-year old Brahman boy as his father. (Manu 11-135).Those who educate Sudras and women will go to hell. (Manu III-156).Sudras and women are unfit for education. It is not necessary that they should know the laws and codes, and hence need not be taught. Violaters will go to ASAMVRITA HELL. (Manu IV-78 to 81).Killing a woman, a Sudra or an atheist is not sinful. Woman is an embodiment of the worst desires, hatred, deceit, jealousy and bad character. Woman should never be given freedom. (Manu IX-14, 17 and V-14, 47).Women are the most faithless. (Manu XVII-12).A girl must be under the care of her father, in youth under the care of her husband, and in old age under the care of her sons. She should never be free and independent. (Manu V-148).None of the acts of a woman can be taken as good and reasonable. (Manu X-4).Even if someone frees a Sudra from slavery, he continues to be slave as he is created for slavery. Nobody has the right to free him. (Manu VIII-56 & 59).A Brahman male by virtue of his birth becomes the first husband of all women in the 'universe'. (Manu III-14).Five husbands to a Hindu woman (Atri Smriti-190):i. Soma (Moon)ii. Gandharvaiii. Agniiv. Brahmanv. Husband.A bride's first night is with Brahman as the first three are notional.
According to the Laws of Manu, it can be argued that the Brahmin King Raavan did
nothing wrong when he abducted Seeta, the consort of Bhagwaan Raam. It can also
be argued that Bhagwaan Raam was wrong in killing the Brahmin Raavan for getting
back his wife Seeta. The Brahmins consider themselves to be more divine
than even the Gods and Goddesses! As a mere Kshatriya, even Bhagwaan
Raam could be considered as inferior to the Brahmin Raavan, if the Laws of
Manu were used!
It should also not be surprising that many
Brahmins still believe that Nathuram Godse had a divine right to kill any
Vaishya like Mahatma Gandhi, and that the Indian Courts had no right to order
the hanging of a Brahmin like Nathuram Godse. According to the Laws of
Manu, a Brahmin cannot be punished for murdering a low-caste
Vaishya.
How could any Brahmin
like Nathuram Godse be punished for killing just one Vaishya when,
according to the Hindu mythology, Maharishi Parshuram could exercise his divine
right to commit the genocide of Kshatriyas by killing all the Kshatriyas 21
times! It also just did not matter how many Kshatriya
women became widows due to the mass murders committed by the Brahmin
Parshuram.
Should the modern Hindus still
accept the extremely evil ideology of the bigoted Brahmins, which believes
that the Brahmins are free to rape and kill because the Laws of Manu exempts
them from being charged and punished for such crimes? Is there any
sense left in the heads of those who believe in Brahminism?
Vedas, Upanishads,
Vedangs,
Puraans are Plagiarized
Works!
The Brahmins publish many books and magazines, even on the
internet, which are meant to serve the interests of ONLY their own caste. The
Brahmins cannot have the sole right to publish their own views and still object
to the other castes making their views known. The bigots among the Brahmins
still wrongly believe that they have a monopoly over all the knowledge and
information concerning all the Hindus.
Why should the
Brahmins have a monopoly over information when they are known to distort
facts and falsify History on a massive scale? Even the Vedas, Upanishads,
Vedangs and Puraans are highly plagiarized books that have collections or
compilations of knowledge, which have been copied from the writings of
Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras, Buddhists, Dravidians, Persians, Greeks, Romans,
Egyptians, Chinese, Jews, Christians, Babylonians, Mesopotamians, etc, without
the writers of Vedas acknowledging all the original sources.
The
credit for the knowledge in the Vedas, Upanishads, Vedangs, and Puraans is
given mainly to a few Rishis, Munis or the Brahmins who compiled the
ancient books. The credit is not given to the thousands of original
authors, scientists and mathematicians from the other castes, like the
Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras of India, or from the different
races and communities of other parts of the world. Can all the
knowledge of the Vedas, Upanishads, Vedangs and Puraans be a monopoly of
any single caste like that of the Brahmins?
The
worst victims of plagiarization by the Vedic writers were the Buddhist
scholars, philosophers, mathematicians, medical scientists, astronomers,
discoverers and other scientists. The Vedic Brahmins had cheated the Buddhist
intellectuals on a massive scale in the world's largest and most glaring fraud
of plagiarism. Practically, all the literary and scientific works of the ancient
Buddhist intellectuals were misappropriated by the Vedic Brahmins.
We should
know that the numeral 'zero' was invented during the Buddhist rule in India. It
seems that even the study and practice of Yoga was turned into a Science by
the ancient Buddhists. Many of the ancient statues of Buddha show him meditating
in yogic poses. The Science of Yoga could have been developed in the ancient
Buddhist universities of India, which taught their students how to
meditate.
The Buddhist scholars, philosophers, mathematicians and
scientists were the greatest intellectuals of ancient India because the
Buddhist Universities of that period were the best in the world. Students from
all over the world had been coming to India to learn in the Buddhist
universities.
Spiritually and intellectually, Buddhism was the greatest religion of
ancient times, due to which it spread to many countries of Asia. But because of
the belief of Buddhists in non-violence, the Buddhist kings got
defeated in the wars imposed by the extremely violent foreign invaders, who
finally succeeded in destroying the benign rule of Buddhists in India. The
most glorious period of the Buddhist Civilization was also thus brought to an
end in India.
It is not
surprising that one of the greatest thinkers of modern India and the world, Dr.
B. R. Ambedkar, the Father of the Indian Constitution, became a Buddhist during
the last part of his life. Following the example of Dr. Ambedkar, millions of
low-caste Hindus have become new converts to the great religion of Buddhism. As
Buddhism does not believe in the caste system, the new converts have found an
easy way to escape from the evils of the caste system.
The
plagiarism by the Brahmins had gone unnoticed for many centuries because the
Brahmins had written their books in Sanskrit, which is a language that the
common Indians and foreigners had found very difficult to learn in a short
time. Only the idle and parasitic Brahmins could easily spare a lot of time
to learn that language. The use of Sanskrit was a very suitable means for the
Brahmins to keep their act of massive plagiarism a secret for such a long
period.
We must also know that literally the
word "Veda" can mean a "collection of knowledge" or "compilation of
information." In practice, a Veda can mean a "book of knowledge." It is not
necessary for the Vedas to be any sacred or divine books, which
many Brahmins falsely claim. As knowledge can be good or evil, holy or
unholy, the Vedas too contain some literary works that are good and also some
other works that are evil. The Vedas contain prayers and praises to Gods and
Goddesses, but they also contain curses and threats.
Using the knowledge in the Vedas, the Brahmins can preach and practise
discrimination based on the extremely evil caste system, untouchability, etc.
The Brahmins are just trying to flatter their own caste, when they describe
the Vedas as holy or divine books. It is the word "Divya" which means
"Divine" in English. The Vedas were never named as Divya Veda, which can
mean Divine Knowledge or Divine Books.
HAF
should not Compromise on Appointment of Priests
Should the
dogmatic Brahmins believe that they have an absolute right to work against the
interests of the majority of Hindus, Buddhists and other communities?
Should all the Hindus accept the extremely evil Brahmin
ideology, which is against the interests of Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Dalits?
Should only the Brahmins have their own separate ideology based on their most
evil caste system, which they are still propagating through their own
institutions and temples by employing only the Brahmin teachers and the Brahmin
priests?
Aditi Banerjee's extremely furious and vicious tirade against the
Hindu American Foundation clearly indicates that the bigoted Brahmins are never
going to accept the appointment of Dalit, Kshatriya and Vaishya priests in the
temples under the control of Brahmins. The Forwarded Message with Aditi
Banerjee's Comments on HAF's Report: "Hinduism: Not Cast in Caste" is shown
below this message.
The bigoted Brahmins consider all the other castes as
inferior. The people of other castes should actually consider the Brahmins as
inferior people because many of them are just useless and lazy parasites like
the beggars, exploiters and extortionists, who still follow the perverted and
primitive religious beliefs and practices of the Dark Ages of 5000 years
back.
The
Kshatriyas and Vaishyas should be ready to learn some good things from the
modern Dalit leaders who now have their own Dalit ideology, which they are
spreading through Dalit teachers in Dalit schools and through Dalit priests in
Dalit temples.
The Kshatriyas too should follow their own Kshatriya
Dharma, which they should spread through their own Kshatriya schools and
Kshatriya temples, and they should employ Kshatriya teachers and Kshatriya
priests for that purpose. Similarly, the Vaishyas can also follow their own
Vaishya Dharma, spreading it through Vaishya schools and Vaishya temples, which
should employ Vaishya teachers and Vaishya priests. Like the Dalits, the
Kshatriyas and Vaishyas should recite their own prayers to their Gods and
Goddesses.
There shall then be no need for the Dalits, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas to
deal with the bigoted Brahmin priests.
To prevent discrimination against women, who
form about 50 per cent of the Hindu population, the Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and
Dalits should also train and appoint many female priests. The leaders among
the Hindu women can actually themselves take the initiative to start this work
of training female priests on a large scale. The female priests should prove to
be more suitable for catering to the religious needs of the female devotees
belonging to the Hindu community.
Ashok T.
Jaisinghani.
Editor & Publisher:
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.Nutritionist-No-1.com
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.SindhiKalakar.com
Editor & Publisher:
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.Nutritionist-No-1.com
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.SindhiKalakar.com
_________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: S. Kalyanaraman
Sent: 19 Dec 2010 11:20 PM
Subject: Fwd: Comments on HAF's Report: "Hinduism: Not Cast in Caste" -- Aditi Banerjee
--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Aditi Banerjee <bane...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:57 PM
Subject: Comments on HAF's Report: "Hinduism: Not Cast in Caste"
To: "Mihir Meghani (HAF)" <mi...@hafsite.org>
Cc: Rajiv Malhotra <rajivmal...@gmail.com>, Gautam Sen <gauta...@gmail.com>, "S. Kalyanaraman" <kaly...@gmail.com>, Ram Sidhaye <indi...@gmail.com>, "Nagendra S. Rao (Google)" <nagend...@gmail.com>
Dear Mihir,
Attached and pasted below are my personal comments on HAF's report on caste
in the form of an open letter to you. I sincerely hope that you will work with
others in the community to address the serious concerns raised here and
elsewhere.
Regards,
Aditi
_______
Aditi
_______
Dear Mihir,
I’m sure that by now you’ve received a barrage of emails re the HAF report
on caste. I won’t be redundant by repeating criticisms that have already
been issued, though I am in general agreement with the serious concerns raised
by Rakesh Bahadur, Rajiv Malhotra, Dr. Gautam Sen, Dr. Kalyanaraman, et
al. I did, however, want to express my personal comments on the
report.
For the reasons given by others in their comments as well as the
reasons set forth below, HAF must immediately withdraw the report and reissue it
only if and when it substantially incorporates the revisions to be provided by a
select group of scholars that address the community’s grave concerns and
objections. There are many ways to achieve this, and surely we
can find a way to structure such a process that would be satisfactory to you as
well as the other concerned parties. This is absolutely critical and
urgent for the sake of the Hindu community as well as for HAF’s sake, or else
this may turn out to be a rift within the community that cannot be mended.
Here are my main objections to the report (to the extent not covered by the
other comments):
(1) Despite being 160+ pages long, it is not at all clear what
HAF’s position is on the issue of caste. There’s so much CYA language
going in all directions that the report ends up simultaneously saying too much
and saying nothing at all.
For example, the report states that it is the position of HAF that “We
believe in equal religious and spiritual rights for all Hindus, including a
priesthood that is open to all Hindus.” (p. 56) The report also refers to
a 2006 press release by HAF, where HAF stated: “The Hindu American Foundation
(HAF) welcomed [sic] the a order of the government of the Indian state of Tamil
Nadu allowing all Hindus with the required training and qualification to become
archakas (priests) in temples regardless of caste.”
Does this mean you (as an advocacy group) will openly call for the
government of India to interfere (even more than they are already interfering)
in the internal affairs of temples to enforce some quota or other
variant of affirmative action for non-Brahmin Hindus?
If not, are you demanding that temples themselves do this?
Are you arrogating to yourself the authority to tell temples how to conduct
their internal affairs?
Let’s leave India out of it, since you are the Hindu “American”
Foundation. Will you undertake such intervention for American
temples? Also, since the report states ad nauseum that HAF opposes
birth-based discrimination, I presume as a logical matter this includes
gender. Is it HAF’s official position that the “priesthood” (which is an
inaccurate term since there is no institutionalized “priesthood” in Hinduism but
rather various sampradayas and paramparas and mathas that have their own rules)
should be open to women? Will you call for governmental interference to
ensure such measures are taken in individual temples?
If the answer is yes that you are going to undertake such
interventions, then it is important for us to know this. Please address
where you get the mandate or authority to make such decisions on behalf of Hindu
temples / sampradayas / paramparas / mathas. (Citing the 13
statements appended to your report by various swamis does not count here as a
CYA, as it is not clear that any of them had the opportunity to read your report
in full before giving their statements.)
If the answer is no, that you are not advocating such intervention, and
that the report instead is just intended as a general summary of HAF’s policy
position on caste and recommendations for the community and various Hindu
leaders and institutions to consider, then I have one simple question which is
also my next objection:
(2) What was the point of HAF releasing this report? To the
extent any internal reforms are urged by you to be undertaken, why not make
these recommendations privately and directly to the concerned parties rather
than rebuffing them publicly (other than out of a fear you wouldn’t get brownie
points from the US government and other secular institutions / progressive
groups you appear to be cozying up to in return)?
To the extent any position on caste had to be taken by you as an
advocacy group in the public arena, there were many different ways the same
effect could have been achieved without inflicting the severe collateral damage
the report has unleashed.
You could have simply made a one-paragraph statement like the following:
“We believe in the rule of law and that under law, each individual has
equal dignity and must be treated equally, and therefore discrimination should
be thoroughly prohibited by law (except to the extent required to undo past
inequities). We believe the internal laws of India are robust enough to
prevent birth-based discrimination along the lines of caste, and to the extent
there are problems enforcing the laws, that is a matter of law enforcement and
we support full prosecution of the laws in ending caste discrimination.
While, in some respects, this is also a social issue, we applaud the efforts of
those grassroots organizations that are working to eradicate social divisions
and we will continue to support their efforts. To that effect, we
particularly acknowledge the efforts of [cite groups] to banish the ills of
social divisions and discrimination. We will work together with Hindu
groups and acharyas to work towards the upliftment of the downtrodden.”
What does your 170-page report achieve in terms of elaborating a suitable
policy position that the paragraph above does not? Why would such a
paragraph not suffice for the same purpose of addressing people in debates,
etc.? Why waste 100+ pages on copying and pasting news links and random
quotes from the Hindu scriptures to offer some kind of mea culpa on behalf of
Hinduism that is self-serving for your purposes and to make some unilateral and
arrogant demand for the “rejection” of various Hindu scriptures? How was
any of this at all required for the simple purpose of adopting a clear and
appropriate policy position on caste discrimination? Which
brings me to my next and biggest objection:
(3) HAF does not have the authority or competence to make
statements about the position of caste in Hinduism; to demand that Hindu
acharyas conform their teachings to HAF’s policy position; or to demand that
Hindus actively reject portions of Hindu scriptures and teachings that do not
conform to HAF’s whitewashed, politically correct preferred version of
Hinduism.
Had the report been confined to an argument based on civil rights or law
for more measures to ensure the prevention of discrimination against lower
castes, I would not object to the issuance of the report. What I
do object to is HAF claiming to definitively conclude that caste-based
discrimination or birth-based hierarchy (whatever those terms mean) are not
inherent to Hinduism and that to the extent any teachings or scriptures say to
the contrary, such teachings and scriptures must be rejected.
In taking this position, HAF has crossed a line
and seriously overstepped its bounds.
The report takes this position baldly: “HAF supports the reanalysis
and subsequent rejection of any and all teachings that promote caste-based
discrimination and birth-based hierarchy. … Hindu religious and spiritual
leaders must take the lead in ensuring that those parts of the various
scriptures that promote notions of caste-based discrimination and a birth-based
hierarchy are explicitly denied any authority in the minds of their
followers.”
First of all, HAF’s discussion of how caste is not inherent to Hinduism is
shallow and grossly oversimplified. Stating that everything is Brahman and
therefore birth-based differences are irrelevant is a disingenuous answer.
Even the most Advaitin of Advaita Vedantins adhere to the principle that while
the physical world has no fundamental reality it has transactional validity—or,
as in the movie Inception, when in the dream world, the rules of the dream world
are operative and have operating reality—and that when operating on the
vyavaharika (mundane world) level, one has to take into account the world one
encounters, the reality one sees.
Our rishis saw that people are not “born equal,” in the sense that we come
into the world with different gunas (characteristics) and aptitudes and are born
into a variety of circumstances in accordance with our karma from past
births. We see this reality all the time. We see people born into
vastly different circumstances—some rich, some poor, some healthy, some gravely
ill. What our rishis recognized is that these differences are not random
but rather are a product of karma accrued through past lives resulting in the
current incarnation. One way of responding to and acknowledging these
self-evident differences was through the social institutions of jati and varna.
HAF’s position that everything is Brahman and therefore no
birth-based differences exist is extremely shallow and intellectually lazy. Such
a position strikes at the very root of the core principles of karma and
reincarnation that are foundational to Hinduism.
Does HAF reject the principles of karma and reincarnation when it eschews
the concept of birth-based differences?
Acknowledging such birth-based differences is not tantamount to
calling for discrimination; it is a metaphysical ontology that is fundamental to
the Hindu worldview. One can have this worldview and still agree that
there should be no discrimination as a legal and social matter. However,
this worldview that takes into account differences at birth cannot be discarded
just because it is inconvenient to HAF.
If one wants to say that there may be birth-based differences but that
there should not be birth-based discrimination, that is easy enough to say
without having to make all these verbal gymnastics of saying Hinduism does not
believe in the relevance of birth-based differences—such a statement can in any
case be contradicted in a number of places, not just in quotes from the
scriptures but through the analysis of various stories from the Puranas which
generally show that people are affected by nature AND nurture and that gunas
inherent from birth do impact the development of an individual although are not
necessarily determinative. Perhaps such a worldview does not
conform to your Westernized mindset of inherent equality, etc., but just because
you don’t like it, just because it may not be politically correct enough for
you, does not mean you can arrogantly and unilaterally revise Hinduism to say
what you wish it says.
Presenting a table of scriptures that tabulate what % (based on word or
shloka count) talks about caste (which again is not mappable onto the scriptures
as there is no equivalent word for “caste” in Sanskrit) is irrelevant and does
not prove anything. Hinduism is not a religion of the book; it is a
religion based on traditions transmitted through sampradayas and paramparas that
are in conformity with the scriptures but not confined to them. Thus, such
a verse-counting analysis is shallow and misleading at best. Nor is it at
all necessary as the ills of caste-based discrimination can be wholly addressed
through legal means and social reform without getting into these thorny issues.
I could live with all of the above had HAF not made the brash and
unforgivable and totally unacceptable demand that certain portions of our
scriptures must be rejected by our acharyas and by the Hindu community. That is
a fundamental attack on Hinduism, no less an attack just because it happens to
come from a “Hindu” organization.
It is true, as HAF states, that the Smritis “by their very nature and
intent, are recognized to change with space and time and do not necessarily
teach Hinduism’s eternal spiritual truths.” (p. 1). However, that does not
mean one can cherry-pick among the texts to pick out verses they like and call
them the real Hinduism and discard the others. Such reinterpretations
are the province of spiritual giants such as Veda Vyasa, Adi Shankara, etc., who
have the spiritual advancement and tapobala to institute such evolutions within
Hinduism. It is not a grant of license for political organizations to
selectively cherry-pick their favorite bits of our scriptures.
As described above, HAF has called for the rejection of any part of a
scripture that promote notions of birth-based hierarchy. Again, it is not
at all clear what constitutes birth-based hierarchy in HAF’s mind. Per Vishal’s analysis, at least some verses of various
Vedas discuss some notion of caste. Is it HAF’s view that such portions of
the Vedas are to be rejected by Hindus? Is HAF asking Hindu acharyas to
reject Vedic shlokas, which are the very fountainhead, the most sacrosanct of
the sacrosanct sources of Hindu dharma?
HAF cavalierly dismisses and denigrates the Manu Smrti, casually saying
that since no one reads it anyway, it’s irrelevant and therefore can be safely
dropped and dismissed. Presumably, HAF’s call to reject scriptures
advocating for “birth-based hierarchy” would entail rejection of the Manu Smriti
and other Dharmashastras.
I will not reject the Manu Smriti and I will
not reject any portion of Hinduism’s sacred scriptures, whether Shruti or
Smriti, just because it is not in conformity with HAF’s policy position.
All of Hinduism’s scriptures are revered and venerated and sacrosanct.
They are not dead texts to be surgically carved up with unfavored parts to be
exorcised at whim.
In its arrogance, HAF has denigrated the faith
of a billion people. It is not necessary to read the Manu Smriti to have
faith and reverence in it. Being a Hindu is not a textual exercise—it is
shraddha in our traditions, in our scriptures, in our rishis and forefathers
through the ages. Hinduism hasn’t survived because of intellectual
analyses. Hinduism has survived because of the faith of its people, the
reverence of the masses for our scriptures, our rishis, our pantheon of devas
and devis. HAF is trampling on the faith of traditional Hindus by brashly
demanding that acharyas reject portions of the scriptures that HAF
dislikes.
I will tell you who Manu is to me.
He is our first law-giver; he is our first forefather; he and his descendants
are the rulers of our universe. Every morning, when I sit
for puja, I invoke the rishis and the forefathers, and I feel his presence in my
shrine room among all the other great sages and rishis and divine beings who
line the corridors of the Hindu pantheon. I have bowed before him in
remote temples in the Himalayas, and I have felt his blessings fall upon
me.
Perhaps for HAF the Manu Smriti is just an old
book, Manu just an old dead guy. But for me, and for millions of others,
the Manus, the rishis who gave us our scriptures, and the scriptures themselves,
are living manifestations of the Divine. They are accepted as Divine, and
we have abiding faith in their wisdom, in their divinity, in the blessings
conferred by them. We will not turn our backs on them or on any part of
them.
Anyone who attacks Manu attacks Hinduism.
We fought against Doniger for attacking Rama and the Ramayana. I
will fight anyone who attacks Manu or the Manu Smriti and calls for them to be
exorcised from Hinduism. This does not mean that the words of Manu Smriti
are to be applied literally; but it also does not mean that the Manu Smriti is
to be rejected. There is a fine line between the two.
HAF has overstepped its bounds grossly, and if it persists in
calling for the rejection of portions of Hindu scriptures, then it can no longer
present itself as a Hindu advocacy group that speaks for Hindus or presents a
Hindu voice. It is acting no differently than Doniger and others
of her ilk who have also grossly distorted Hinduism to suit their own
proclivities.
Many of us opposed Doniger when she attacked Hinduism; I have no hesitation
in opposing HAF when it attacks the Dharmashastras and the Hindu dharma by
maligning Manu, who was our first law-giver
and the forefather of all humans and all Hindus, and various of our Hindu
scriptures. We must have conviction in our own
dharma. I will not apologize for our Shruti and our Smritis. I will
not apologize for Manu. Let us live by the rule of law, certainly; let us
not practice discrimination. But I will not reject a single word of our
scriptures.
The issue here is bigger than one report about caste. It is about the
soul of HAF. What does HAF stand for? Will it be an organization
that stands for Hinduism and Hindus, or will it make the compromises it must to
advance its own interests and to curry favor with the political and media
mainstream? If HAF is willing to throw away parts of our scriptures to
suit its purposes, what else that is Hindu will be discarded to suit HAF’s
convenience? Where does the line get drawn? This is just one report
on caste—but what will come next?
HAF with the issuance of this report has sadly
pitted different factions of the Hindu community against each other. In
this, you have shamefully divided the Hindu community.
Not because anyone advocates caste-based discrimination but
because the report has been so clumsily put together, so damning in the
inconsistent and ill-defined positions adopted and the reasoning used, so
politically lethal to the interests of Hindus here and abroad, that people are
being forced to take an opposing stand in order to mitigate the damage to the
causes dear to our hearts.
If HAF is willing to work with the community,
the damage can be somewhat rectified. But if HAF turns its back on the
community, then we will have to turn our backs on you forcefully and explicitly.
As Rakeshji said in his email, it is hurtful to have to turn against one’s
own people. We would all prefer to instead work together. But dharma
is bigger than any individual or any organization. If HAF persists
in distorting Hinduism and calling for the exorcism of certain portions of Hindu
scriptures that you find inconvenient, then you are standing for adharma,
notwithstanding the fact that you all may be Hindus by birth or
self-identification. Dharma is bigger than any individual or
organization. If, for the sake of dharma, HAF must fall, then so be it.
This is not a passing storm that will subside when tempers cool. Be
assured that if you persist in this way, many of us stand ready to ensure that
your funding is cut and that your ability to inflict such damage on the Hindu
cause in the future is severely curtailed.
Sincerely,
Aditi
Banerjee
Rajesh Patil
May 9, 2011, 7:03:16 AM5/9/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com, thetriba...@yahoo.com
Shri Ashok JaiSinghani
You are creating confusion amongst Hindus and trying to divide them; The motive behind this division is known to every reader !!
You state that "Bramhins worship Raavana " This is blatant LIE !!! I have not seen any Bramhin worshiping Raavan !!! They are worshiping Raam, Krishna, Shiva, Goddess Laxmi, Ganesh, Durga etc...
Raam JanmaBhumi case is going on in the court. Your timing for this mail circulation raises an eye of suspicion about your motives behind such acts of yours.
Who ARE YOU ? ARE YOU A HINDU ?
Please answer
Rajesh
You are creating confusion amongst Hindus and trying to divide them; The motive behind this division is known to every reader !!
You state that "Bramhins worship Raavana " This is blatant LIE !!! I have not seen any Bramhin worshiping Raavan !!! They are worshiping Raam, Krishna, Shiva, Goddess Laxmi, Ganesh, Durga etc...
Raam JanmaBhumi case is going on in the court. Your timing for this mail circulation raises an eye of suspicion about your motives behind such acts of yours.
Who ARE YOU ? ARE YOU A HINDU ?
Please answer
Rajesh
Koenraad Elst
May 9, 2011, 10:57:53 AM5/9/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com
Dear Rajesh and others,
It seems you aren't aware who you're getting worked up about. Go check his www.wondercures.com charlatan website. Ashok T. Jaisinghani is a malignant madcap who teaches that sex causes constipation. His kind of sex, perhaps. I'm not sure there is a way of meaningfully arguing against his evil-spirited nonsense. It is at any rate counterproductive and ridiculous to spend exclamation marks and capitalized outcries on him. Reading him is only useful for getting a magnified view of the intrinsic madness of what passes for secularism in India.
But to give everyone his due: even Jaisinghani makes sense sometimes. Lately he remarked that "praying to Mecca" is an impossible commandment that the Muslims never really manage to implement. The straight line marking the direction in which they pray, actually points into space, follwoing a tangent along the earth's curved surface. The Muslim commandment presupposes the belief in a flat earth.
Best regards,
KE
Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 16:33:16 +0530
Subject: Like Dalits, the Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should have Their own Priests
From: pati...@gmail.com
To: desi...@googlegroups.com
CC: thetriba...@yahoo.com
It seems you aren't aware who you're getting worked up about. Go check his www.wondercures.com charlatan website. Ashok T. Jaisinghani is a malignant madcap who teaches that sex causes constipation. His kind of sex, perhaps. I'm not sure there is a way of meaningfully arguing against his evil-spirited nonsense. It is at any rate counterproductive and ridiculous to spend exclamation marks and capitalized outcries on him. Reading him is only useful for getting a magnified view of the intrinsic madness of what passes for secularism in India.
But to give everyone his due: even Jaisinghani makes sense sometimes. Lately he remarked that "praying to Mecca" is an impossible commandment that the Muslims never really manage to implement. The straight line marking the direction in which they pray, actually points into space, follwoing a tangent along the earth's curved surface. The Muslim commandment presupposes the belief in a flat earth.
Best regards,
KE
Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 16:33:16 +0530
Subject: Like Dalits, the Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should have Their own Priests
From: pati...@gmail.com
To: desi...@googlegroups.com
CC: thetriba...@yahoo.com
Rabinder Koul
May 9, 2011, 11:49:41 AM5/9/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com, Rabinder Koul, thetriba...@yahoo.com
Mr. JaiSinghani ji needs some education, both inn elementary Dharma and some education on how to think on your own. He has colonized mind, thinking knowing english is being educated.
Ravindra Koul
अस्मद्रूपसमाविष्ठ: स्वात्मनात्मानिवारणे
शिव: करोतु निजया नम: शक्त्या ततात्मने
Trishool
May 9, 2011, 11:49:45 AM5/9/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com, thetriba...@yahoo.com
| Rajesh Ji, This loud mouth Ashok, spoke nonsense about suffering Hindu Kashmiri pundits long ago, and I had confronted him, It seems he is a converted fanatic Muslim, with name, to mislead others, as usual. I think, he should be leached. His name reflects that he is Sindhi, from well respected Sindhi family, living abroad. Regards, Lal Gehi --- On Mon, 5/9/11, Rajesh Patil <pati...@gmail.com> wrote: |
Ashok T. Jaisinghani
May 9, 2011, 4:52:31 PM5/9/11
to Rajesh Patil, desi...@googlegroups.com, tribal tribune
Rajesh Patil Jee,
You should read
the old correspondence of more than 3 years back, which is shown below, to
understand how some arrogant Brahmins had used the crook called Koenraad Elst to
deliberately provoke me to write articles against them. I was reluctant to write
on the subject of the failures of Brahmins, but some articles were posted
on the Internet by some bigoted Brahmins accusing me of being anti-Hindu. I was
forced to respond by writing against the bigoted Brahmins who could see
absolutely nothing wrong in what they had been doing for thousands of years.
I have not said that the Brahmins worship Raavan, but I have
certainly mentioned that the Brahmin King Raavan symbolizes the worst
debauchees among the bigoted Brahmins who believe in and practise polygamy,
abduction, rape, adultery, fraud, murder and other crimes.
I have also
certainly mentioned that the Brahmins worship the mass murderer called Maharishi
Parshuram, the Brahmin TERRORIST who killed all the Kshatriyas 21
times.
Ashok T.
Jaisinghani.
___________________
----- Original Message -----
From: Ashok T.
Jaisinghani
To: Shakti List ; Deva
Samaroo ; Dr. Satish Prakash - Maharshi Dayananda
Gurukula ; panditaindrani ; Dr. Madhukar
Ambekar ; Atul
Sehgal ; aryayou...@yahoogroups.com ; Ayodhya Prasad
Tripathi - Aryavrt Government
Sent: 04 Mar 2008 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Shakti-L: 232] Re: Truth about Failure of Brahmin
Ideology & Leadership
Hello Everyone,
I did not expect
Koenraad, and his crony G P Srinivasan, to show such arrogance
that they have made fun of my views on the "Truth about Failure of Brahmin Ideology & Leadership."
Their highly inflated egos definitely deserve to be deflated. That shall be
done soon.
I am preparing my
article on the subject, which shall be send to a number of discussion groups and
hosted on a number of websites in a few days. If Koenraad and
Srinivasan want to read my article, they should wait till it appears on the
internet. They shall not get the copies of my article directly from me.
Ashok T.
Jaisinghani.
Editor & Publisher:
Editor & Publisher:
----- Original Message -----From: GP SrinivasanSent: 04 Mar 2008 9:20 PMSubject: [Shakti-L: 232] Re: Truth about Failure of Brahmin Ideology & LeadershipDear KE,I hope you are fine and back to normal. he has not propduced any proof. Lets us hope some sense prevails. How was your Delhi Infinity foundation summit? What did you present? I understand they released 10 volumes of ancient science and technology. Where is it availble.Best,GP.SRINIVASAN
On 3/4/08, Koenraad Elst <koenra...@hotmail.com> wrote:Note, everybody, that Ashok Jaisinghani once more fails to provide his proof.
KE
From: asho...@sancharnet.in
To: koenra...@telenet.be
CC: shak...@googlegroups.com; devas...@hotmail.com; satish...@yahoo.com; i_ram...@yahoo.com; drmna...@yahoo.co.uk; atul...@yahoo.com; aryayou...@yahoogroups.com; arya...@gmail.com; in...@hinduforum.org
Subject: [Shakti-L: 213] Truth about Failure of Brahmin Ideology & Leadership
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:20:54 +0530Truth about Failure of Brahmin Ideology & LeadershipHello Koenraad,In your email of March 3, you have written, "After the torrent of abuse you've poured out here, that proof is indeed overdue. Let us hear it." You have doubted my ability to prove that Brahminism, which believes in the evil caste system, moorti poojaa and cow worship, was the main reason for the defeat of the Hindus at the hands of small armies of the Islamic and Christian invaders.I am sure that the Brahmins don't want the other Hindus to know how their bogus ideology and hypocritical leadership became the main reasons which made the Hindus lose power in India to foreign invaders. Are you really sure whether your Brahmin friends want you and others to know the truth?As you are a foreigner, who does not know what is really in the minds of the Brahmins on this subject, please consult your Brahmin friends before giving me an answer.Regarding an explanation of the reasons why the Sasanian and Byzantine empires collapsed in no time before the Muslim onslaught, I am not bound to give you any answer. I have not studied the history of the Sasanian and Byzantine empires.With regards,
Ashok T. Jaisinghani.
Editor & Publisher:
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.SindhiKalakar.com_______________________----- Original Message -----From: "koenraad.elst" <koenra...@telenet.be>To: "Shakti List" <shak...@googlegroups.com>Sent: 03 Mar 2008 3:06 AMSubject: [Shakti-L: 171] Re: {UnitedHinduFront} Re: THE ARYA SAMAJ IS NOT ANTI-HINDU - THEARYASAMAJ HAS MADE HINDUISM STRONG
On Mar 2, 9:48 pm, "Ashok T. Jaisinghani" <ashok...@sancharnet.in>
wrote:
>
> If what Rabinder Koul says is right, can we know how the poor beggars called Brahmins succeeded in grabbing massive amounts of wealth and great power for thousands of years in India?
>
Dint of hard work? Same question goes for the oppressed and
downtrodden Shudras, such as the Nandas and Mauryas (with their
Brahmin strategist Chanakya), and Shivaji.
> I can prove that Brahminism, which believes in the evil caste system, moorti poojaa and cow worship, was the main reason for the defeat of the Hindus at the hands of small armies of the Islamic and Christian invaders. Brahminism caused the downfall of many Hindu rulers of India.
>
After the torrent of abuse you've poured out here, that proof is
indeed overdue. Let us hear it. Among other things the proof would
have to include an explanation for why the Sasanian and Byzantine
empires collapsed in no time before the Muslim onslaught while
Brahminical India held out for centuries.
Incidentally, as KS Lal has documented, the invading Muslim armies
were anything but small. Unlike the Hindu kshatriyas, the Muslim
rulers had vast standing armies, including slave soldiers.
>> Idol worship is wrong, anti-Vedic and outrightly improper. It is an
>> affront to God and hence it is a sinful practice. This was the
>> message conveyed by Swami Dayanand because he could see the harm which
>> had befallen the people of India (Aryavarta) by being entrenched in
>> idolatory.
Same question: please tell us how idolatry *caused* all this harm. In
the Bible, whence you or your Arya Samaj source borrowed this un-Vedic
claim about idolatry, it is Yahweh who punishes the Israelites for
their "lapses" into idolatry. Wha
<BR
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
To post to this group, send email to shak...@googlegroups.com
To
unsubscribe from this group, send email to
shakti-l-u...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this
group at
http://groups.google.com/group/shakti-l?hl=en
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
______________________________
Ashok T. Jaisinghani
May 9, 2011, 6:16:17 PM5/9/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com, Rajesh Patil, tribal tribune
The following
correspondence of nearly 3 years back proves how stupid and cowardly
Koenraad Elst is. Koenraad Elst is a hypocrite who is an enemy of the Hindus.
Ashok T.
Jaisinghani.
__________________
To: Koenraad
Elst
Cc: Dr Jagadish C Majumdar ; Hindu Council UK ; Dr. Satish
Prakash - Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula ; Dr Rajiv
Arora MD - Sanatan Dharma ; ranjeet singh ; Dr Raj Pandit
Sharma ; TRIBUNE (India) ; Free Press Journal
Sent: 09 Aug 2008 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Koenraad Elst, the Pest
Re: Koenraad Elst, the
Pest
Stinking Stupid Coward Koenraad,
You have chosen to side
with those bigoted Brahmins who are the enemies of 98% of the Hindus belonging
to other castes. You are anti-Hindu precisely because you are supporting the
bigoted Brahmins and Brahminism against the majority of Hindus. It seems that
you have still not read some of my articles against the bigoted Brahmins to
understand the reasons why I support all the Hindus of other castes who are
against the perverted ideology of bigoted Brahmins.
You
are a self-declared coward - a crying, defeated, cribbing cowardly pseudo-Hindu.
A promiscuous foreigner like you comes to India to satisfy his
lust by having fun with many Hindu girls just like Krishna, but you do not
like to live like Raam. If you have been on the battlefield, have you died for
any Hindu cause or suffered any injuries? The big cowards like you only make
tall claims about your so-called great sacrifices for the Hindus. Why should I
be seen with any coward like you? You should stop interfering in the affairs of
the Hindus. Why should a bastard foreigner like you try to give instructions or
orders to Hindus.
It is beneath my dignity to discuss the findings of my
original research in Nutrition with any idiot like you who supports the
perverted beliefs and practices of bigoted Brahmins like the hereditary caste
system, discrimination against women, untouchability, etc. I don't discuss the
details of my original research in Nutrition with any confirmed lunatic
cowards or stinking stupid swines like you.
I am not surprised by your statement
that you had lived in a madhouse for many years, and that you escaped
from there to come to India.
The wonders of science shall not bow before the false glory of primitive ideas. All the holy men use modern gadgets like electric lights, TVs, telephones, computers, cars, trains, planes, refrigerators, air-conditioners, etc, etc. So why should the so-called holy men launch tirades against the scientists whose inventions they are using for their enjoyment? There are many ungrateful rascals like you in this world.
To idiots like
you, the fellows like Acharya Ramdev, who advocate the drinking of cow's urine
and eating of cow-dung to cure all diseases, are not quacks. If you blindly
follow the primitive Sanatan Dharma, can you inform me how much cow's urine you
drink, and how much cow-dung you eat, every day? You must be a stinking
swine.
Regarding my original
research in Nutrition, you have written, "it transpires that they threw
your contributions into the dustbin never to spend another thought on
them." It makes me laugh even louder at your idiotic comments and those
of your lunatic supporters. Do you know what is the
ranking of my website www.wonder-cures.com?
The top search
engines have been ranking my website as No. 1 in the world among more than 5
million websites and urls in the category of wonder cures.
You can never change that
fact. You can keep farting all your life, raving and ranting against my original
research in Nutrition, but it is not going to make any difference to facts. You
can just go on farting all the way to your final destination of HELL.
Ashok T.
Jaisinghani.
Editor & Publisher:
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.SindhiKalakar.com
Editor & Publisher:
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.SindhiKalakar.com
_______________________
-----Original Message-----
From: Koenraad Elst <koenra...@hotmail.com>
To: <asho...@sancharnet.in>, <agni...@gmail.com>, <nkk...@gmail.com>,
<ramgo...@yahoo.com>, <drmna...@yahoo.co.uk>,
<devinde...@btopenworld.com>, <bimal_...@vsnl.com>,
<keshav...@yahoo.com>, <psab...@hotmail.com>,
<ramesh....@hfb.org.uk>, <koenra...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Koenraad Elst, the Pest
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 22:55:33 +0200
Ashokji,
Several of the addressees of your latest posts have written to me
off-list to warn me against any interaction with Ashok Jaisinghani, whom they
describe as a mean-spirited madman. No, Ashokji, not sickly pale-faced people
like myself, but properly dark-skinned native Hindus as preferred by you.
However, being a contrarious European, I will ignore their admittedly wise
advice, and engage you anyway.
One reason not to let you get off the hook is indicated by yourself
in your tirade against orthodox medicine:
>RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus <
I can only laugh at the crazy
comments made by the ignorant fellow like Koenraad Elst about my research in
Nutrition. Let me tell the Crying Coward Koenraad that it is a stale joke for
anyone to refer to my original research in Nutrition as quackery. For years,
many fellows had tried to prove me as a quack, but all had failed. Even the most
confident Allopathic doctors and medical scientists, who tried to prove my
research findings as wrong, only got big frights when they visited my websites
on Health. After reading my articles on Nutrition and Health, they preferred to
become silent about my research, as they began to have doubts whether they were
the real quacks themselves. The frightened fellows now don't have the courage to
say anything about my research. <
I admit that when I first accused you of quackery, I had done so
without reading your work as a "nutritionist". I simply extrapolated from your
behaviour on our forum where you have amply demonstrated that you are a con-man,
never giving a straight answer, changing the subject when cornered, ever opening
new fronts of foul interchange without ever proving any of your numerous strange
claims. I just assumed that if you were a con-man here, you would logically have
to be a con-man there as well. But on second thought, I ought to consider the
possibility that you are a split personality, and that maybe you do make good
sense in your nutritionist work. So I gave it a closer look.
Quite a bit of the jargon you use is from orthomolecular medicine
and perfectly legitimate. However, many claims you make are not supported by the
orthomolecular school nor by any other school of medicine. Your positing a link
between malaria and AIDS will be dismissed by many medics, but there might be
something to it, though in the opposite sense from what you claim. In
ethnomedicine, it has been found that black Africans are genetically protected
from malaria (though at the cost of being susceptible to sickle-cell anaemia),
while a sizable percentage of white Europeans is genetically protected against
AIDS. There need not be a link, but if there is one, it would seem that immunity
against AIDS is inversely proportional to immunity against malaria. But I'll let
that pass, it's specialistic stuff, beyond my and obviously also beyond your
competence. A point on which most readers can form their own opinion, though,
simply from experience, is the connection you posit between having plenty of sex
and getting constipated. What kind of sex is it that you indulge in? For most
people, the procreative system and the digestive system are fairly
separate.
You claim, in victorious tones, that many medics have grown silent
after interacting with you on your strange medical theories. No surprise there.
Exactly like the Hindu members from this forum who wrote to me to tell me that
interacting with you is useless, they will have concluded that the whole
exercise was pointless. I don't think they secretly conceded that you were right
after all. If you were, then it would have been in their own interest to take
your theories, put them in more academic form, publish them (with a little
footnote mentioning you to cover themselves against allegations of plagiarism)
in a proper forum, and get worldwide credit for this bright new breakthrough.
Instead, it transpires that they threw your
contributions into the dustbin never to spend another thought on
them.
At least this may explain why I feel compelled to write this,
hopefully final, reply to your rant. When the people you attack, whether medics
of "pests" like me, abandon the discussion in despair, you merely feel
vindicated and cry victory. Many years ago I've worked in a madhouse and I've
seen your kind of reasoning often enough there.
As for me being a "crying coward", I have
reread the sentence in my own post that led to this comment of yours. I merely
stated the fact, well-known in Hindutva circles, that I paid a high price in
terms of professional opportunities by siding with the Hindus. Had I sided with
the Muslims and secularists, I would have had the comfortable career of a
William Dalrymple. This is simply a fact, and there was not a word of
complaint accompanying my statement of that fact. Nothing "crybaby" there.
Indeed, if I could start all over, I would still choose the Hindu side. Maybe
it's my idiosyncratic tendency of being drawn to lost causes; or maybe I just
hope to be remembered as someone who chose the good over the profitable.
Anyone who cares about the Hindu cause would take the information
about my professional reversals not as a reason to launch a personal attack on
the messenger, but as an occasion to contemplate the implications for the
position of the Hindu movement. For my case is merely one instance of a general
rule: taking a pro-Hindu line is detrimental, taking an anti-Hindu line is
highly profitable. What does that say about the Hindu movement's public
relations? If the US supplies weapons to Pakistan which end up being used to
kill Hindus, or if the US refuses a visa to Narendra Modi, then these are
tangible consequences of the anti-Hindu mood among the India-watchers, which in
turn is a consequence of the misery they would experience if choosing the Hindu
side and the rewards they can reap if joining the anti-Hindu camp. The negative
reward for being pro-Hindu, the positive reward for being anti-Hindu, and the
fact that Hindus are getting killed in Ahmedabad and elsewhere, these things are
intimately connected. But those vital questions don't interest you. It is said
that great minds focus on ideas, mid-level minds focus on events, and small
minds focus on people. We here have never seen you contribute anything at the
level of ideas, only self-indulgence in your petty attacks on
individuals.
As for "coward", I don't claim to be a hero,
far from it, but I have participated in a number of battles of some
importance to the Hindu cause (Ayodhya, the Nazi allegation against Savarkar and
Golwalkar, the Aryan invasion debate). One side-effect of having been on the
battlefield is that I know who else was there, and by implication also who was
not there. I have never seen you there. I have never heard of any single
contribution of yours to any Hindu struggle. If a coward is someone who hasn't
run away from the battlefield, you indeed are not a coward, simply because you
have never come anywhere near a battlefield in the first place. As for me, I
have never run away from a confrontation in the survival war of Sanatana Dharma.
Conversely, several secularists and Muslims have excused themselves from debates
when informed that I would be in the panel. This is of course very small merit
compared with the Indian soldiers who defeated the Pakistani army in Bangladesh
1971 or Kargil 1999, but it is something, and thus it is more than your nothing.
All you have done is cyber-heroics, and this not even to cyber-feign attacks on
the enemy but merely to attack Hindus and pro-Hindu outsiders.
Koenraad is an absolute liar
when he states, "Since his dirty mind, which sees only dirt in the Puranas, must
perforce see dirt wherever it looks, . . ." I have never read any Vedas,
Puranas or Upanishads, and I don't intend to read them, because I don't have the
time or even the inclination. So where is the question of my mind wanting to see
any dirt in the Puranas, which I may never read? Of course, I do sometimes come
across the comments made by others on these books.<
So, your statements and allegations are based on mere hearsay. Good
that you say this yourself. So now we know we don't have to take you seriously.
But my assessment of the mentality that sees dirt in the Puranas stands: whether
from reading or from hearsay, your understanding of stories such as Krishna's
seducing the Gopi-s betrays a particular mentality. The vast majority of Hindus
have heard that story numerous times and have never concluded from it that they
should engage in immoral behaviour. Their mind is pure and consequently their
understanding of the story is pure as well. You, by contrast.
Modern Hindus want to give up
their wrong beliefs and practices, but the idiot called Koenraad wants the
Hindus to continue them. He thinks that he should be treated like some kind of
God by the Hindus because of his white skin. So he wants a right to command the
Hindus and their leaders to work according to his dictates.<
On the contrary, I merely second the healthy good sense of hundreds
of millions of ordinary brown-skinned Hindus. And there is nothing wrong with
their listening to the Krishna stories as stories. Some Hindu reformers try to
cast the Hindu scriptures in the Quranic mode as a set of commandments, as if
Krishna were commanding all listeners to become
adulterous. Well, that's a mistake.
adulterous. Well, that's a mistake.
It is clear that the late
Sitaram Goel had politely given the best advice to Koenraad to stop interfering
in the affairs of Hindus. Koenraad should have listened to the advice of Sitaram
Goel, and even left India, but idiots like him don't listen to good
advice.<
You really have a point here. It would have saved me this whole
exchange.
And this will then be my last word to you.
Kind regards,
Dr. Koenraad Elst
__________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: "Ashok T. Jaisinghani" <asho...@sancharnet.in>
To: <agni...@gmail.com>,
"Naresh Khanna" <nkk...@gmail.com>,
"ramgopal gupta" <ramgo...@yahoo.com>,
"Dr Madhukar Ambekar" <drmna...@yahoo.co.uk>,
<devinde...@btopenworld.com>,
"Bimal Mohanty \(AHWAN\)" <bimal_...@vsnl.com>,
"Keshav Acharya" <keshav...@yahoo.com>,
"Prem Sabhlok" <psab...@hotmail.com>,
"Ramesh Kallidai" <Ramesh....@hfb.org.uk>
Cc: "Koenraad Elst" <koenra...@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:03:10 +0530
To: <agni...@gmail.com>,
"Naresh Khanna" <nkk...@gmail.com>,
"ramgopal gupta" <ramgo...@yahoo.com>,
"Dr Madhukar Ambekar" <drmna...@yahoo.co.uk>,
<devinde...@btopenworld.com>,
"Bimal Mohanty \(AHWAN\)" <bimal_...@vsnl.com>,
"Keshav Acharya" <keshav...@yahoo.com>,
"Prem Sabhlok" <psab...@hotmail.com>,
"Ramesh Kallidai" <Ramesh....@hfb.org.uk>
Cc: "Koenraad Elst" <koenra...@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:03:10 +0530
RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy
of Hindus
I can only laugh at the
crazy comments made by the ignorant fellow like Koenraad Elst about my research
in Nutrition. Let me tell the Crying Coward Koenraad that it is a stale joke for
anyone to refer to my original research in Nutrition as quackery. For years,
many fellows had tried to prove me as a quack, but all had failed. Even the most
confident Allopathic doctors and medical scientists, who tried to prove my
research findings as wrong, only got big frights when they visited my websites
on Health. After reading my articles on Nutrition and Health, they preferred to
become silent about my research, as they began to have doubts whether they were
the real quacks themselves. The frightened fellows now don't have the courage to
say anything about my research.
Koenraad is an absolute liar when he states, "Since his dirty
mind, which sees only dirt in the Puranas, must perforce see dirt wherever it
looks, . . ." I have never read any Vedas, Puranas or Upanishads, and I
don't intend to read them, because I don't have the time or even the
inclination. So where is the question of my mind wanting to see any dirt in the
Puranas, which I may never read? Of course, I do sometimes come across the
comments made by others on these books.
Modern Hindus want to give up their wrong beliefs and
practices, but the idiot called Koenraad wants the Hindus to continue them. He
thinks that he should be treated like some kind of God by the Hindus because of
his white skin. So he wants a right to command the Hindus and their leaders to
work according to his dictates.
It is clear that the
late Sitaram Goel had politely given the best advice to Koenraad to stop
interfering in the affairs of Hindus. Koenraad should have listened to the
advice of Sitaram Goel, and even left India, but idiots like him don't listen to
good advice. Read the stupid comments made by Koenraad about the Hindu leaders,
religious thinkers and organizations in his letter shown below. His stupid
comments about the Hindu leaders and religious thinkers should be forwarded to
their supporters.
Koenraad the Pest
Do you know who
is Koenraad Elst?
He had left behind his wicked West;
Who came to India merely as a guest;
Crooked man now has permanent nest.
He had left behind his wicked West;
Who came to India merely as a guest;
Crooked man now has permanent nest.
Koenraad has become a
hated pest;
As a Hindu, he thinks he is the best;
Let all Hindus know this joker's jest;
As the pseudo-Hindu, he is stupidest.
As a Hindu, he thinks he is the best;
Let all Hindus know this joker's jest;
As the pseudo-Hindu, he is stupidest.
Koenraad Elst is one
big fat lazy bum;
All day long, he can drink a lot of rum;
Writing trash, he didn't make big sum;
So he sheds many tears to fill a drum.
All day long, he can drink a lot of rum;
Writing trash, he didn't make big sum;
So he sheds many tears to fill a drum.
Ashok T.
Jaisinghani.
Editor & Publisher:
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.SindhiKalakar.com
Editor & Publisher:
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.SindhiKalakar.com
________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: Koenraad Elst <koenra...@hotmail.com>
To: "Ashok T. Jaisinghani" <asho...@sancharnet.in>, <agni...@gmail.com>
CC: Naresh Khanna <nkk...@gmail.com>, ramgopal gupta <ramgo...@yahoo.com>,
Dr Madhukar Ambekar <drmna...@yahoo.co.uk>, Devinder Thakur
<devinde...@btopenworld.com>, "Bimal Mohanty (AHWAN)" <bimal_...@vsnl.com>,
Keshav Acharya <keshav...@yahoo.com>, Prem Sabhlok <psab...@hotmail.com>,
Ramesh Kallidai <ramesh....@hfb.org.uk>
Subject: RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:07:02 +0200
Ashok Jaisignhani, the "nutritionist" who makes a living by selling quackery to the gullible, shows a lot of interest in my financial situation. That is the main focus of his latest screed, focusing on what was only an afterthought in my own latest, which was focused on the phenomenon of the reinterpretation of scripture in the service of non-scriptural doctrines.
Since his dirty mind, which sees only dirt in
the Puranas, must perforce see dirt wherever it looks, it also imputes
all kinds of things to me, such as my being a "failed gold-digger". He must be
very stupid indeed to think that anyone could believe there was money to be made
by scholarly writing. The intellectual scene is just not his world, and he
cannot avoid projecting the mentality of his own conmen circles onto the world
of research and debate. Anyway, fools can play a useful role once in a
while, such as providing an occasion to explain a few things I normally don't
discuss.
After my first couple of books, Sita Ram Goel started warning me not to take my involvement with India too seriously. He predicted that India was not going to do me any good. I didn't listen, I felt just too inviolved with the Hindu cause to leave it alone ("because you were Indian in your past life", Hindus tell me). He also recounted how the Hindu leadership is not even able to recognize friend from foe, and cited cases where friendly criticism meant to correct and enhance the Hindu movement's performance (such as by Girilal Jain) was violently rejected.
I have criticized the Hindu movement whenever I saw it doing things
that went against the Hindu interest or damaged its own chances for victory. I
was to learn that this was not appreciated, for the movement has more pressing
priorities than victory. For example, many self-proclaimed vanguard factions,
including the Arya Samaj and the RSS, are more interesting in posturing as
superior vis-a-vis other Hindus than in advancing the common good of the Hindus.
Goel told me, after my first discussion with VHP spokesmen: "You might as well
have talked to my wall." Eighteen years later, that is my over-all feeling about
the effect of my work on the movement that could have benefited from it: they
prefer to listen to their own self-praise than to any hard research that they
could use for the cause they claim to be serving.
Oh, but now I catch myself discussing strategy and victory, when Ashok was only interested in money. So, let's talk money. I never knew how to turn scholarship into money, I never even considered such a thing possible, and I can't say my experiences in India have proven me wrong. Yet, even if I don't know the method to get there, the target of making money from my writing would have been a decent and good one. Had I become rich by disproving the secularists' position on the Ayodhya temple's history, or disproving that Golwalkar was a Nazi, or making the AIT establishment admit that their champion Michael Witzel's decisive "proof" of the AIT from the Baudhayana Shrauta Sutra was mistaken (to name but a few of the things that I have achieved and that none of the Hindutva writers has), then the Hindu movement, which never understood the value of historical evidence or of winning a historians' debate, would have respected me and taken my work seriously. They have no respect for a scholarly job well done, for they couldn't recognize one when they see one. Witness their glorifying the worst nincompoops crowing victory about winning the Aryan invasion debate which in reality is anything but won all while ignoring the sterling scholarship being produced by unpretentious but bright and hard-working scholars, both Indian and Western. Witness their sabotaging of their own effort at rewriting the history textbooks in 2002 and how they made a laughing-stock of the very notion of Hindu history-rewriting. So, with only the historical evidence I had gathered and the logic with which I had shown its implications on the Ayodhya c.q. the Aryan Invasion debate, I had no chance of making an impression on the Hindu leadership. One of the consequences is that their Ayodhya policy (to the extent they still have one) is conducted as if there had never been pro-temple evidence. They still frame their demands in pitiable terms of "respecting Hindu snetiments" rather than "respecting firmly established Hindu property rights", thus grossly weakening their position vis-a-vis their secularist and Islamic opponents. Well, when I look back on this tragi-comical failure of the Hindu leadership, i find I must admit i share in the blame. I should have found a way to impress the value of methodologically sound evidence and of framing their demands in the correct terms. I couldn't have done that by arguing.
But looking at the likes of Ashok, it now transpires that i could
have done it by becoming wealthy. That more than anything else would have made
them respect me. And then maybe they wouldn't have spurned the argumentative
weapons I was providing them with. Imagine if Ashok with the dollar signs
in his eyes would have had to concede that I had become "a successful
gold-digger". He would then still not read my arguments, he would still be
unable to function at that level, but he would respect them.
I am good friends with a handful of Hindus who are bright, true lovers of knowledge, and who recognize a worthwhile argumentation when they see one. But those people don't take part in internet discussions, free-for-alls where flaming hotheads soon crowd out the people who have anything to say. As an impatient Westerner, i have a hard time watching nonsense fly by and miss the chance to expose it for what it is. It's about time I learned the Oriental attitude of ignoring stuff you can't really change, such as people's stupidity.
Enjoy the projection of your own dirty mind on the Puranas, on your fellow Hindus who are not wannabe-iconoclasts, and on outsideres who prefer the richness of genuine Hinduism to the impoverished and distorted version put out by certain ignorant fanatics.
I am good friends with a handful of Hindus who are bright, true lovers of knowledge, and who recognize a worthwhile argumentation when they see one. But those people don't take part in internet discussions, free-for-alls where flaming hotheads soon crowd out the people who have anything to say. As an impatient Westerner, i have a hard time watching nonsense fly by and miss the chance to expose it for what it is. It's about time I learned the Oriental attitude of ignoring stuff you can't really change, such as people's stupidity.
Enjoy the projection of your own dirty mind on the Puranas, on your fellow Hindus who are not wannabe-iconoclasts, and on outsideres who prefer the richness of genuine Hinduism to the impoverished and distorted version put out by certain ignorant fanatics.
Cheers,
KE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: asho...@sancharnet.in
To: agni...@gmail.com
CC: koenra...@hotmail.com; nkk...@gmail.com; ramgo...@yahoo.com;
drmna...@yahoo.co.uk; devinde...@btopenworld.com;
bimal_...@vsnl.com; keshav...@yahoo.com; psab...@hotmail.com;
Ramesh....@hfb.org.uk
Subject: RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:26:03 +0530
RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of
Hindus
Agniveer Jee,
In his letter of July 15, Koenraad Elst has
written, "Ashok Jaisinghani, a self-declared "nut" and reportedly a convert to
Christianity, is right: I am an enemy."
In spite of being a
foreigner, only an idiot like Koenraad Elst can think of having a right to
declare persons like me as Christians. By calling me a Christian, the joker is
pretending to know more about me than I know myself. Who has given a right to
such an outsider to declare any Hindus as Christians?
Koenraad is a
Failed Gold-Digger
He has also written, "But you are totally wrong
about my writing about and pro Hinduism in order to make "millions". Choosing to
side with the Hindus against their numerous enemies has been the worst career
move imaginable."
According to his own confession, Koenraad is a
gold-digger who has failed to make big money in India in spite of all his
efforts.
He has further written, "Siding with you people
has cost me an academic career and only given me poverty and numerous social and
professional difficulties. And now I have to wonder why I've ever done
it."
He regrets coming to India because he could not
get the riches he expected. He thinks that he has a right to become rich because
he has done a great favor to the Hindus by coming to India and writing about
Hinduism.
Coward Koenraad can
Cry!
After reading his letter, I am sure that the
coward Koenraad has been shedding many tears. However, I shall never offer even
a handkerchief to him to wipe his tears, as he has declared himself as my enemy.
Agniveer Jee, can you offer him a handkerchief?
I just cannot feel sorry for the crying coward
Koenraad because he has constantly chosen to support those bigoted Brahmins, who
are working against the rights and interests of all the Hindus who belong to the
other castes. He has been behaving just like any bigoted Brahmin who does not
believe in the basic equality of all men and women. Koenraad believes in and
justifies casteism, inequality, womanizing, polygamy, vulgarity and other such
practices mentioned in some of the ancient scriptures.
Ashok T.
Jaisinghani.
Editor & Publisher:
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.SindhiKalakar.com
Editor & Publisher:
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.SindhiKalakar.com
________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: Koenraad Elst <koenra...@hotmail.com>
To: Ashok T. Jaisinghani <asho...@sancharnet.in>, Agniveer <agni...@gmail.com>
Cc: Naresh Khanna <nkk...@gmail.com>, ramgopal gupta <ramgo...@yahoo.com>,
Dr Madhukar Ambekar <drmna...@yahoo.co.uk>,
Dr Subramanian Swamy <il...@sify.com>, VHP (New Delhi) <vishw...@gmail.com>,
Pioneer (New Delhi) <pio...@del2.vsnl.net.in>,
ORGANISER Weekly
<edi...@organiserweekly.com>,
Free Press Journal <f...@vsnl.com>
Subject: RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:51 PM
Ashok Jaisinghani, a self-declared "nut" and reportedly a convert to Christianity, is right: I am an enemy. In particular, I am an enemy of those people who, like the self-declared non-Hindu fraction among the Arya Samajis, want to censor Hindu scripture. The story of Krishna seducing the milkmaids never struck me as an instance of "vulgarity". Nor does the picture I have hanging in my room of Ganesha embracing the Shiva Lingam, which the vulgarity-suspicious among you would unmask as his father's penis. Millions of Hindus worship the Shiva Lingam, which Muslims writers used to decry as a dildo used by Hindu women for highly carnal purposes. Millions of Hindus enjoy Krishna Lilas without feeling revolted by the story's alleged vulgarity. I can understand that the Victorian Christian translator Griffith concealeed the sexually explicit parts of the Rg-Veda in a Latin rather than an English rendering, but I never heard of traditional Vedicists who refused to face the Vedas' contents. Until I met the Veda-toting Arya Samajis, who swear by the Veda but impose non-Vedic contents on the pages between the cover labelled Veda. I am on the side of those ordinary innocent-minded Hindus who didn't know better than to respect and enjoy their traditional lore. They don't take Krishna's adventures as a commandment to go womanizing. It is only you, Agniveer and Ashok, who wear vulgarity-coloured glasses and therefore see vulgarity everywhere. Because of your dirty mind, you see dirt everywhere.
We are dealing here witha fundamental problem of how people deal with the religious tradition into which they were raised. If you censor your own revered scriptures, it means you don't believe in them (which is a legitimate option, but please be honest about it) and have already mentally replaced them with something else. Thuse, all premodern scriptures without exception contain plenty of sexism, classism and other forms of inequality. If you have come to espouse modern egalitarianism, you have the option of accepting the fact that you have grown away from the norms of your ancestors. If you think inequality is wrong, then say openly that Manu was wrong, that the casteism appearing from the Yajur-Veda and Upanishads onwards was wrong, that your scriptures were wrong in this regard. Christians and Jews don't have a problem with this. They know that their scriptures condone slavery and that they themselves reject it, simply because they find it normal that times change and norms change accordingly. That is a concession to realism, essentially counter to the Biblical commandments. Hinduism has often been praised as more flexible and open to variety and change, but now it is you borderline Hindus who turn out to be inflexible in the extreme: on the one hand you want to be in tune with the changing norms of today, on the other you want to read your scirptures quasi-Biblically as a set of commandments, so to reconcile their unmodern norms with your own modern sensibilities, you start distorting the scriptures which you claim to hold sacred.
What MF Hussain has painted, is not scenes from Hindu scripture. I am not aware of any Ramayana passage showing Sita getting off on Hanuman's monkey tail. Hussain's work is indeed vulgarity and meant to insult Hinduism. i don't think the Purana author meant to insult Hinduism or Hindu women when he had Krishna seduce them by the dozens. Nor do millions of Hindus see anything objectionable there. They see it as either just a story, or they resort to the metaphorical explanation given by many Babas, viz. that the Gopis represent the souls who are all of them eager for Krishna's love. If you can only see vulgarity in that story, the problem is not in the story but in the eye of the beholder.
So, Ashokji, you are entirely right about my being an enemy, viz. of forgers who in their hubris think they know better than the Rishis (so far, a genuine possibility) and who even have no respect for the Rishis (that's less justifiable), and therefore try to alter the compositions of the Rishis.
But you are totally wrong about my writing about and pro Hinduism in order to make "millions". Choosing to side with the Hindus against their numerous enemies has been the worst career move imaginable. In a recent review of one of my Dutch publications, I read that "KE, had he avoided coming out as a critic of Islam, would by now have been a celebrity intellectual". Siding with you people has cost me an academic career and only given me poverty and numerous social and professional difficulties. And now I have to wonder why I've ever done it. If I commit myself to a cause, it means I want that cause to come out victorious. You people, by contrast, have turned ou simply not to mean business. One infamous capitulation I've witnessed at close quarters is the Ayodhya movement, which got millions of Hindus walking and hundreds killed. After building up such momentum, the Hindu party just threw it away in an illusory bid to stay on the safe side with the norms laid down by the secularist enemies. The only thing the Ayodhya movement has achieved is the demolition of the Babri Masjid, and for that one its leaders have apologized, "darkest day of my life" and all that. As for the Arya Samaj, it started out bravely with a mission of reconverting the Indian Muslims, but now I find it reduced to espousing all the fashionable values laid down by Hinduism's more assertive enemies (monotheism, iconoclasm) and effectively attacking fellow Hindus. You people don't want to win. You want to get kudos from the missionaries for at least, while still living in the darkness of Paganism, attacking polytheism and idol-worship, two characteristic components of Hinduism.
Kind regards nonetheless,
KE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: asho...@sancharnet.in
To: agni...@gmail.com
CC: koenra...@hotmail.com; nkk...@gmail.com; ramgo...@yahoo.com;
drmna...@yahoo.co.uk; il...@sify.com; vishw...@gmail.com;
pio...@del2.vsnl.net.in; edi...@organiserweekly.com; f...@vsnl.com
Subject: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:12:54 +0530
To: agni...@gmail.com
CC: koenra...@hotmail.com; nkk...@gmail.com; ramgo...@yahoo.com;
drmna...@yahoo.co.uk; il...@sify.com; vishw...@gmail.com;
pio...@del2.vsnl.net.in; edi...@organiserweekly.com; f...@vsnl.com
Subject: Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of Hindus
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:12:54 +0530
Koenraad Elst is an Enemy of
Hindus
Agniveer Jee,
You are absolutely right in
doubting the intentions of foreigners like Koenraad Elst, who has openly
declared that the Hindus should feel proud of the vulgarity, nudity, sexual
perversions and adultery, which are found in some ancient works of
India.
There is not much difference
in the mentalities of a pornographic painter like M.F.Hussain and Koenraad
Elst. If Hussain can boldly paint the nude pictures
of Hindu Gods and Goddesses, we should not be surprised if one day Koenraad also
comes out with a new book containing the nude pictures of many Hindu Gods and
Goddesses. If the Hindus in India protest and burn copies of his book, he would
tell his publishers that "they should market them more among the Western
audience."
The fair-skinned foreigners like Koenraad
believe in exploiting the gullible Hindus through flattery. A useless writer
like Koenraad wants to make huge amounts of money by selling his books on
Hinduism with the help of short-sighted Hindu leaders, who can be easily
flattered by the white-skinned Europeans and Americans.
The fair-skinned flatterers like Koenraad Elst
actually are the enemies of Hindus, as they can easily deceive us by becoming
Hindus and pretending to be our friends. Many such adulterous foreigners come to
India just to have a lot of fun by fooling around with many Hindu women. They
practise adultery openly and get away by extolling the great virtues of ancient
Hinduism or Sanatan Dharma.
The adulterous Europeans and
Americans can claim to worship Krishna and even try to follow Krishna
through the practice of polygamy by having many Hindu wives, concubines and
girl-friends. By declaring that they are following in the footsteps of Krishna,
such fair-skinned foreigners can get the licence to enjoy a life full of any
number of adulterous relations with Hindu girls and married
women.
It does not matter to such foreigners even if
they break up many Hindu families in the process of their unlimited enjoyment of
sex.
Ashok T. Jaisinghani.
Editor & Publisher:
www.Top-Nut.com Top Nutritionist
www.Wonder-Cures.com
www.SindhiKalakar.com
________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: Agniveer <agni...@gmail.com>
Subject: {UnitedHinduFront} Re: Not end but re-start debate.
To: Unitedhi...@googlegroups.com,
aryasamaj yahoogroups <aryasam...@yahoogroups.com>,
aryayouthgroup <aryayou...@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 19:35:28 -0400
1. This is the problem with contemporary western indologists. What can you expect out of Vedic interpretations by perverts who find illicit relations, watching nudity, premarital sex in childhood etc "healthy"! That speaks volumes of the mental setup that reigns these people. And we make Hindutva champions of such mindsets!
We either trash this pervertism or all
those texts which call for Brahmcharya and morality as basis of rightful living
(more so during first 25 years).
2. This Hindutva champion is now
proclaiming that "Dhol Ganvaar...." means beating women. That was exactly what I
was saying - it is such ideology that Arya Samaj would fight against, regardless
of who believes in these - a sanatani or arya samaji.
Seeta Mata and Pt Sharma ji are
requested to debate this with Sri Elst who has been presented on the group as an
Hindutva/ Sanatan Dharma champion. I am totally with you that regardless of what
Tulsidasji meant, taking such a meaning of this verse as given by Sri Elst in
implementation is blatantly disgusting.
3. Sri Elst agrees that there are no
interpolations in Purans and ManumSmriti and that these verses which are vulgar
and unscientfic do exist and also that this should make us pride. Rest of us,
let us be vocal if this be our stand - should we accept such trash. If yes, let
us debate. If not, please clarify that a Hinduism which is truthful/ Vedic in
spirit considers his ideology as trash and pervertism. There can be no middle
way.
4. Sri Elst - please do not try to
divide rest of us and enjoy at their expense. Because even if I quote such
verses, you have already stated that there is nothing wrong with them and they
be accepted with grace.
As an indologists thriving on Indian
texts for profession and otherwise, you know the details in details I assume.
This further implies that you want to dig the grave for the practical
contemporary hinduism which derives inspiration from Vedas and considers
Brahmcharya and equality of caste and women as essential elements and is
blatantly critical of vulgarity, incest, immorality and characterlessness. You
would then create an enviornment where any kind of loose morals or inequality
would be justified from Shastra perspective. For an external indologist having
nothing more than a professional-academic interest in Hinduism or Vedas, these
things are non-serious for obvious reasons as stated by your own views
above.
And then you would want us to be
liberal enough to take crude jokes, images on toilet papers, shoes etc of our
legends with spirit and enjoy. because going by your logic these Purans etc are
source of our culture and if these contain these, what is wrong in accepting the
same today! At least you would make us believe that our role models were not
clean character and this would rock the very foundation of our cultural
base.
My intention is not to win debates with
my family members and feel winner. My goal is to make them realise truth and
warn them of dangers of accepting people like you as well-wishers who consider
pornography as healthy.
The obvious contradictions have clearly
surfaced now. The critical point here is not to provide verses from Purans as
proof to provide you some masala, but whether any followers of Ram, Krishna,
Parshuram, Tulsidas would agree to view that you have presented - that lewdness
is healthy, that any vulgar, unjust, immoral trash if found in our literature is
something we should be proud of?
Om
Agniveer
Agniveer
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 5:01 AM,
Koenraad Elst <koenra...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > 2. Geeta Press does not dare to publish unabridged Shiva Puran and
> > Brahma Vaivart Puran and most Tantra texts. This is because they are
> > too vulgar and insult Krishna etc of lewdness and illicit relations
> > with his engaged auntie. Check out original Purans from some other
> > indological publisher like Motilal Banarasidass, Venkateshwar Press or
> > from indologits like Koenraad Elst etc.
> >
>
> In that case they should market them more among the Western audience.
> We think it's cute, young Krishna exploring all that life had to offer.
> You call it lewd, we call it healthy.
>
> > 3. Do not deny the fact that Purans contain such contentious verses.
> > Because fact remains fact. AT best you can either accept all this crap
> > as mark of our great culture or reject it as trash. Any other way will
> > be mimicing ostrich who starts digging its face in ground when a
> > danger comes to it.
> >
> Yes, it is a sad sight, the denial by Hindus of parts of their scripture
> that are not in tune with current fashions. Prudery is common, so you
> reject the "lewd" parts. Equality is the norm, so you deny the grossly
> non-egalitarian parts. Someone here, some Sharma or Pandit, just denied
> that Tulsidas declared that "drums, villagers, servants, animals and women
> are fit for beating". He claims that instead of "beating" Tulsidas meant
> "instruction". How silly can you get? Some reformer, probably an Arya
> Samaji (well-represented among Guyanese Hindus), tried to counter the idea
> that girls shouldn'"t be sent to school, so he imposed a false reading on
> this text. But liars, no matter how well-meaning, tend to make mistakes
> and get caught out, in this case by overlooking that "instructing drums"
> doesn't make sense.
>
> > please answer:
> > a. What if Purans contain vulgar verses and stories insulting our
> > legends and dehumanizing women, shudras etc. Will you still accept it
> > or not? Be clear and then I shall start giving proofs.<
>
> We should accept such verses in the sense that we should accept the reality
> of their existence. We need not accept them nor any other verses in the
> sense of meekly swallowing them. This whole problem of distorting the
> meaning of verses or denying their scriptural status wouldn't arise if you
> hadn't gotten stuck in this medieval attitude of crawling before ancient
> authority. The Vedic rishis didn't quote scripture, they thought for
> themselves.
>
> > c. DO you believe in complete Manusmriti. I gave link from
> sacredtexts.com site?
> >
> Same problem: "believe". The Manu Smrti is (as Steve Farmer puts it) just
> data. An interesting glimpse into social norms in the early Common Era,
> very post-Vedic, very pre-modern, neither Vedic nor applicable in the modern
> age. But it does have the virtue of explicitly acknowledging that its rules
> are open to change.
>
> > I openly challenge anyone to prove me that Purans and Manusmriti are
> > free from vulgarity, superstitions. <
>
> Hey, anyone is innocent until proven guilty. If you accuse those poor
> scriptures of vulgarity, the burden of proof is entirely upon you. That's
> one of those unpleasant traits of internet flamers: they boss everyone about
> to come and furnish them proof for this, that and another thing. No,
> Agniveer, it's up to you to prove the vulgarity of the Puranas. Come and
> enliven this list with all those explicit words and stories as proof of
> your allegation.
>
> > Om
> >
>
> Om!
>
>
> > >> > > Also read how krishna spent night with Kubja.
> > >>
> > >> > > - Shiva Puran - On origin of linga, how Parvati accepted it, how
> > >> > > SHiva pleased a prostitute devotee, and many other
> > >>
> > >> > > - Other Purans - Trinity raping a woman, Brahma getting erect on
> > >> > > seeing Parvati while conducting her marriage with Shiva, Brahma
> > >> > > -Saraswati relation and how Brahma got curse etc etc
> > >>
> > >> > > Bhagvat Puran - Read Chapter 10 on Raas Leela - how gopis kissed
> > >> > > Krishna, about their dresses, exchange of eaten Paans, etc etc.
> > >>
>
> Isn't that wonderful, the Puranas mirrorring real life including its sexual
> dimension? Fortunately, the Vedas are just as full of "lewd" and
> "vulgar" passages. In Griffith's translation, these are put separately at
> the back of the book and rendered in Latin rather than English, so that
> ladies who hadn't been to Eton wouldn't understand their explicit message.
> As for "shishnadeva", it is part of a description of the enemy Dasyus and
> is meant as an insult, something like "cocksucker".
>
>
> > >> > > Please read clearly what Dayanand has said - he said that one may
> > >> > do Niyog if there is desperate need for children.
> > >> > But better if one stays brahmchari
> > >> > > and do service of society and meditation. But one should never get
> > >> > > into prostitution, illicit relations etc.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > He has always re-emphasised that staying Brahmchari and doing
>> > >> > exactly what your aunt did is the best option.
>> > >> >
> > >> * Read Satyarth Prakash again
>
> Extolling celibacy is quite un-Vedic. The Vedas want you to pay off your
> debt to your ancestors by procreating. They don't treat women as equal with
> men but they nonetheless have a healthy appetite for women and extol the
> harvest of their wombs. That is why shramanism was abhorred as anti-social,
> a form of biological parasitism where the sangha cannot produce its own
> membership but had to recruit from families who had wisely not chosen
> celibacy.
>
> This is one of many instances of Dayananda preaching post-Vedic and
> non-Vedic practices all while calling them Vedic. Just like Hindu
> astrologers selling Hellenistic astrology as "Vedic astrology". Or
> cookbooks presenting recipes with potatoes and tomatoes and other vegetables
> imported from America by the Portuguese in the 16th century as "Vedic
> cooking".
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> KE
>
>
wrote:
>
> > 2. Geeta Press does not dare to publish unabridged Shiva Puran and
> > Brahma Vaivart Puran and most Tantra texts. This is because they are
> > too vulgar and insult Krishna etc of lewdness and illicit relations
> > with his engaged auntie. Check out original Purans from some other
> > indological publisher like Motilal Banarasidass, Venkateshwar Press or
> > from indologits like Koenraad Elst etc.
> >
>
> In that case they should market them more among the Western audience.
> We think it's cute, young Krishna exploring all that life had to offer.
> You call it lewd, we call it healthy.
>
> > 3. Do not deny the fact that Purans contain such contentious verses.
> > Because fact remains fact. AT best you can either accept all this crap
> > as mark of our great culture or reject it as trash. Any other way will
> > be mimicing ostrich who starts digging its face in ground when a
> > danger comes to it.
> >
> Yes, it is a sad sight, the denial by Hindus of parts of their scripture
> that are not in tune with current fashions. Prudery is common, so you
> reject the "lewd" parts. Equality is the norm, so you deny the grossly
> non-egalitarian parts. Someone here, some Sharma or Pandit, just denied
> that Tulsidas declared that "drums, villagers, servants, animals and women
> are fit for beating". He claims that instead of "beating" Tulsidas meant
> "instruction". How silly can you get? Some reformer, probably an Arya
> Samaji (well-represented among Guyanese Hindus), tried to counter the idea
> that girls shouldn'"t be sent to school, so he imposed a false reading on
> this text. But liars, no matter how well-meaning, tend to make mistakes
> and get caught out, in this case by overlooking that "instructing drums"
> doesn't make sense.
>
> > please answer:
> > a. What if Purans contain vulgar verses and stories insulting our
> > legends and dehumanizing women, shudras etc. Will you still accept it
> > or not? Be clear and then I shall start giving proofs.<
>
> We should accept such verses in the sense that we should accept the reality
> of their existence. We need not accept them nor any other verses in the
> sense of meekly swallowing them. This whole problem of distorting the
> meaning of verses or denying their scriptural status wouldn't arise if you
> hadn't gotten stuck in this medieval attitude of crawling before ancient
> authority. The Vedic rishis didn't quote scripture, they thought for
> themselves.
>
> > c. DO you believe in complete Manusmriti. I gave link from
> sacredtexts.com site?
> >
> Same problem: "believe". The Manu Smrti is (as Steve Farmer puts it) just
> data. An interesting glimpse into social norms in the early Common Era,
> very post-Vedic, very pre-modern, neither Vedic nor applicable in the modern
> age. But it does have the virtue of explicitly acknowledging that its rules
> are open to change.
>
> > I openly challenge anyone to prove me that Purans and Manusmriti are
> > free from vulgarity, superstitions. <
>
> Hey, anyone is innocent until proven guilty. If you accuse those poor
> scriptures of vulgarity, the burden of proof is entirely upon you. That's
> one of those unpleasant traits of internet flamers: they boss everyone about
> to come and furnish them proof for this, that and another thing. No,
> Agniveer, it's up to you to prove the vulgarity of the Puranas. Come and
> enliven this list with all those explicit words and stories as proof of
> your allegation.
>
> > Om
> >
>
> Om!
>
>
> > >> > > Also read how krishna spent night with Kubja.
> > >>
> > >> > > - Shiva Puran - On origin of linga, how Parvati accepted it, how
> > >> > > SHiva pleased a prostitute devotee, and many other
> > >>
> > >> > > - Other Purans - Trinity raping a woman, Brahma getting erect on
> > >> > > seeing Parvati while conducting her marriage with Shiva, Brahma
> > >> > > -Saraswati relation and how Brahma got curse etc etc
> > >>
> > >> > > Bhagvat Puran - Read Chapter 10 on Raas Leela - how gopis kissed
> > >> > > Krishna, about their dresses, exchange of eaten Paans, etc etc.
> > >>
>
> Isn't that wonderful, the Puranas mirrorring real life including its sexual
> dimension? Fortunately, the Vedas are just as full of "lewd" and
> "vulgar" passages. In Griffith's translation, these are put separately at
> the back of the book and rendered in Latin rather than English, so that
> ladies who hadn't been to Eton wouldn't understand their explicit message.
> As for "shishnadeva", it is part of a description of the enemy Dasyus and
> is meant as an insult, something like "cocksucker".
>
>
> > >> > > Please read clearly what Dayanand has said - he said that one may
> > >> > do Niyog if there is desperate need for children.
> > >> > But better if one stays brahmchari
> > >> > > and do service of society and meditation. But one should never get
> > >> > > into prostitution, illicit relations etc.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > He has always re-emphasised that staying Brahmchari and doing
>> > >> > exactly what your aunt did is the best option.
>> > >> >
> > >> * Read Satyarth Prakash again
>
> Extolling celibacy is quite un-Vedic. The Vedas want you to pay off your
> debt to your ancestors by procreating. They don't treat women as equal with
> men but they nonetheless have a healthy appetite for women and extol the
> harvest of their wombs. That is why shramanism was abhorred as anti-social,
> a form of biological parasitism where the sangha cannot produce its own
> membership but had to recruit from families who had wisely not chosen
> celibacy.
>
> This is one of many instances of Dayananda preaching post-Vedic and
> non-Vedic practices all while calling them Vedic. Just like Hindu
> astrologers selling Hellenistic astrology as "Vedic astrology". Or
> cookbooks presenting recipes with potatoes and tomatoes and other vegetables
> imported from America by the Portuguese in the 16th century as "Vedic
> cooking".
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> KE
>
>
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "United Hindu Front"
group.
Related websites : http://shehjar.kashmirgroup.com
: http://www.hindujagruti.org
: http://kashmirgroup.com
To post mail at: Unitedhi...@googlegroups.com
Unsubscriptions: Unitedhindufro...@googlegroups.com
Visit this group at:
http://groups.google.com/group/Unitedhindufront?hl=3Den
********************************************************
Views and opinions expressed are only of the persons posting the mail
Related websites : http://shehjar.kashmirgroup.com
: http://www.hindujagruti.org
: http://kashmirgroup.com
To post mail at: Unitedhi...@googlegroups.com
Unsubscriptions: Unitedhindufro...@googlegroups.com
Visit this group at:
http://groups.google.com/group/Unitedhindufront?hl=3Den
********************************************************
Views and opinions expressed are only of the persons posting the mail
and not of the Owner/Moderator of UHF
group. Anyone who wishes to
unsubscribe from this group can do so by sending an email to
Unitedhindufro...@googlegroups.com
********************************************************
unsubscribe from this group can do so by sending an email to
Unitedhindufro...@googlegroups.com
********************************************************
----- Original Message -----
From: Koenraad
Elst
Sent: 09 May 2011 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: Like Dalits, the Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should
have Their own Priests
Dear Rajesh and others,
It seems you aren't aware who you're getting worked up about. Go check his www.wondercures.com charlatan website. Ashok T. Jaisinghani is a malignant madcap who teaches that sex causes constipation. His kind of sex, perhaps. I'm not sure there is a way of meaningfully arguing against his evil-spirited nonsense. It is at any rate counterproductive and ridiculous to spend exclamation marks and capitalized outcries on him. Reading him is only useful for getting a magnified view of the intrinsic madness of what passes for secularism in India.
But to give everyone his due: even Jaisinghani makes sense sometimes. Lately he remarked that "praying to Mecca" is an impossible commandment that the Muslims never really manage to implement. The straight line marking the direction in which they pray, actually points into space, follwoing a tangent along the earth's curved surface. The Muslim commandment presupposes the belief in a flat earth.
Best regards,
KE
It seems you aren't aware who you're getting worked up about. Go check his www.wondercures.com charlatan website. Ashok T. Jaisinghani is a malignant madcap who teaches that sex causes constipation. His kind of sex, perhaps. I'm not sure there is a way of meaningfully arguing against his evil-spirited nonsense. It is at any rate counterproductive and ridiculous to spend exclamation marks and capitalized outcries on him. Reading him is only useful for getting a magnified view of the intrinsic madness of what passes for secularism in India.
But to give everyone his due: even Jaisinghani makes sense sometimes. Lately he remarked that "praying to Mecca" is an impossible commandment that the Muslims never really manage to implement. The straight line marking the direction in which they pray, actually points into space, follwoing a tangent along the earth's curved surface. The Muslim commandment presupposes the belief in a flat earth.
Best regards,
KE
Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 16:33:16 +0530
Subject: Like Dalits, the
Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should have Their own Priests
Shri Ashok JaiSinghani
You are creating confusion amongst Hindus and trying to divide them; The motive behind this division is known to every reader !!
You state that "Bramhins worship Raavana " This is blatant LIE !!! I have not seen any Bramhin worshiping Raavan !!! They are worshiping Raam, Krishna, Shiva, Goddess Laxmi, Ganesh, Durga etc...
Raam JanmaBhumi case is going on in the court. Your timing for this mail circulation raises an eye of suspicion about your motives behind such acts of yours.
Who ARE YOU ? ARE YOU A HINDU ?
Please answer
Rajesh
You are creating confusion amongst Hindus and trying to divide them; The motive behind this division is known to every reader !!
You state that "Bramhins worship Raavana " This is blatant LIE !!! I have not seen any Bramhin worshiping Raavan !!! They are worshiping Raam, Krishna, Shiva, Goddess Laxmi, Ganesh, Durga etc...
Raam JanmaBhumi case is going on in the court. Your timing for this mail circulation raises an eye of suspicion about your motives behind such acts of yours.
Who ARE YOU ? ARE YOU A HINDU ?
Please answer
Rajesh
shrigopal sharma
May 10, 2011, 12:32:45 AM5/10/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com, Om Sharma
All humans,
Please, stop arguing and fighting in the name of religion and old writings. Be wise to live in harmony and peace.
Discrimination on the basis of religion, casts, or gender is not acceptable. Please, think, express, and work for the betterment and welfare of the humanity.
With regards,
Shri Sharma
Please, stop arguing and fighting in the name of religion and old writings. Be wise to live in harmony and peace.
Discrimination on the basis of religion, casts, or gender is not acceptable. Please, think, express, and work for the betterment and welfare of the humanity.
With regards,
Shri Sharma
From: Koenraad Elst <koenra...@hotmail.com>
To: desi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 7:57:53 AM
Subject: RE: Like Dalits, the Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should have Their own Priests
Srinivasan Arudi
May 10, 2011, 3:32:04 AM5/10/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com, Rabinder Koul, thetriba...@yahoo.com
Mr. JaiSinghani,
By doing so what is the achievement? The true essense of being a brahmin is pocessing brahma gyan, if Dalit / Kshatriyas & Vaishya Priest gets Brahma gyan, he will also be called Brahmin.
From: Rabinder Koul <arr...@ameritech.net>
To: desi...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Rabinder Koul <arr...@ameritech.net>; thetriba...@yahoo.com
Sent: Mon, 9 May, 2011 9:19:41 PM
Subject: Re: Like Dalits, the Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should have Their own Priests
By doing so what is the achievement? The true essense of being a brahmin is pocessing brahma gyan, if Dalit / Kshatriyas & Vaishya Priest gets Brahma gyan, he will also be called Brahmin.
Caste is supposed to be based on the nature of work and Brahma gyan that is attained not by brith alone.
Request you to write things which are useful to people.
Have a nice day!
Srinivasan Arudi
Advocate
From: Rabinder Koul <arr...@ameritech.net>
To: desi...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Rabinder Koul <arr...@ameritech.net>; thetriba...@yahoo.com
Sent: Mon, 9 May, 2011 9:19:41 PM
Subject: Re: Like Dalits, the Kshatriyas & Vaishyas Should have Their own Priests
Rajesh Patil
May 10, 2011, 7:52:53 AM5/10/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com
Ashok Ji
Your writings are truly Anti-Hindu. Its not JUST an Accusation as you state. Its a FACT.
Although, I am NOT a Bramhin by Birth, but I am a Hindu and your writings definitely harm my religious feelings.
Please note that Bramhins neither supported Raavan nor denied that "he was a Bramhin".
On one side you say that all the Hindu scriptures were in possession of Bramhins then they could have very easily tampered the scriptures and could have shown Raavana to be a Non-Bramhin !!.
But they did not do so !!! They could have "created" ALL the Avataars to be Bramhins only !! But lo - they kept almost every Avataar to be Kshatriya or Non-Bramhin !!! Even the ParashuRaam was a Kshatriya !!!
Now, about ParashuRaam's story of killing of Kshatriyas - You are mentioning Maharshi ParashuRaam but I am referring to Lord ParashuRaam (7th Avataar of Lord Vishnu). Although, he was Born as a Bramhin, he was a Kshatriya by Guna and Karma.(Refer BhagavadGeetaa --- ChaaturVanam Mayaa Srushtam ...). He actually killed 'Crooked weapon wielders' - whom today we call as Terrorists (since in old days - the term 'Terrorist' was not there -- hence they were referred as Kshatriyas as they were wielding weapons.).
Actually, you need to have ParashuRaam today to kill all Jehadis, Crusaders and to those who cause confusion in Humans !!!
Please circulate this to all whom you had originally marked the mail to..
Rajesh
Your writings are truly Anti-Hindu. Its not JUST an Accusation as you state. Its a FACT.
Although, I am NOT a Bramhin by Birth, but I am a Hindu and your writings definitely harm my religious feelings.
Please note that Bramhins neither supported Raavan nor denied that "he was a Bramhin".
On one side you say that all the Hindu scriptures were in possession of Bramhins then they could have very easily tampered the scriptures and could have shown Raavana to be a Non-Bramhin !!.
But they did not do so !!! They could have "created" ALL the Avataars to be Bramhins only !! But lo - they kept almost every Avataar to be Kshatriya or Non-Bramhin !!! Even the ParashuRaam was a Kshatriya !!!
Now, about ParashuRaam's story of killing of Kshatriyas - You are mentioning Maharshi ParashuRaam but I am referring to Lord ParashuRaam (7th Avataar of Lord Vishnu). Although, he was Born as a Bramhin, he was a Kshatriya by Guna and Karma.(Refer BhagavadGeetaa --- ChaaturVanam Mayaa Srushtam ...). He actually killed 'Crooked weapon wielders' - whom today we call as Terrorists (since in old days - the term 'Terrorist' was not there -- hence they were referred as Kshatriyas as they were wielding weapons.).
Actually, you need to have ParashuRaam today to kill all Jehadis, Crusaders and to those who cause confusion in Humans !!!
Please circulate this to all whom you had originally marked the mail to..
Rajesh
Rajesh Patil
May 10, 2011, 8:01:50 AM5/10/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com
Thanks Dr Koenraad
Such people make lot of noise and create confusion. Someone should retort them lest they think they are right and make others also believe that way.
But I would request the forum moderator to screen the insulting words of Mr Ashok JaiSinghani.
With Warm Regards
Rajesh
Such people make lot of noise and create confusion. Someone should retort them lest they think they are right and make others also believe that way.
But I would request the forum moderator to screen the insulting words of Mr Ashok JaiSinghani.
With Warm Regards
Rajesh
Ashok T. Jaisinghani
May 10, 2011, 4:34:01 PM5/10/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com, Rajesh Patil, tribal tribune
Rajesh Patil
Jee,
The TERRORIST Brahmin Parshuram had also murdered his own mother
mercilessly, besides killing all the Kshatriyas 21 times. Like the
bigoted Brahmins, you too want the mass murderer Parshuram to be worshipped as
an avataar of God.
Do the Hindu religious scholars have any sense left in their heads when they ask
the Hindus to worship any terrorists and mass murderers like the Brahmin
Parshuram, who threatened and killed lakhs of people belonging to his own
community?
Ashok T.
Jaisinghani.
Editor & Publisher:
Editor & Publisher:
__________________________
Dirgha Raj Prasai
May 10, 2011, 10:33:11 PM5/10/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com
Please, don't try to minimize the history and reality-
Hindus Cultural Traditions and Beliefs in Nepal
By Dirgha Raj Prasai
Nepal was bigger during the ancient time. ‘Himwatkhanda-Nepal’
extended from Bramhaputra in the East to Hindukush in the west,
Kailash Mansovar in the North and Ganga in the South. In time the
‘Himwatkhanda Nepal’ disintegrated into many smaller nations. The fact
is mentioned in the Prayaga archive of Samudra Gupta, the son of
Bikramaditya, that ‘Nepal’ is a place lying in between Kamrup (current
Assam) and Karkarpur (current Kumau). We can infer from these facts
that Himwatkhanda Nepal in the ancient times was bigger than what is
today. This area of the Himwatkhanda is the golden land. A veteran
Rishi (Hindu’s ascetic Guru) in a special Vedic scripture has
mentioned about Himwatkhanda, “Bharatbarshe Utarayane Himalaya Tate
Swarnabhumi, Swarnabhumi,” meaning ‘the northern part of Bharatkhande,
the Himalayan mountains is the golden land and just haven’. We can
draw inference as to the greatness of this land. Kalidash in his
‘Kumaar Sambhav’ has mentioned, “The land from Eastern Himalayas to
the Western Himalayas is the Arya land.” Before the Muslim and English
regime, Bharatbarsha had comprised 25 nations. After the unification
of India by East India Company, then India was called Hindustan. But,
before the King, the creator of greater Nepal- Prithvi Narayan Shah
1800 B.S (Bikram Sambat era) had said- ‘Nepal is the real
'Hindusthana' at 1800 Bs (1753, AD)
During the time when Himwatkhanda Nepal remained a unified country the
current powerful nations were divided into many smaller nations.
Bismark had unified Germany, which had existed in the façade of many
smaller nations, a hundred years after Nepal’s unification. Italy was
also divided into many smaller nations a hundred years before Nepal’s
unification, which was transformed into a greater Italy by good sons
as Kabur and Gyalibhardi. Japan came out of the dark-age under the
leadership of its King after Mehiji restoration hundred years after
Nepal’s unification. Two decades before the unification of Nepal the
now superpower America was a British colony. Prithvinarayan Shah had
already unfurled the flag depicting the Sun and the Moon and unified
the small kingdoms into a Himwatkhanda Nepal to save the tradition of
this area. The Sanskrit language was the popular language of ancient
Nepal and India. A famous Scholar Max Mucller has written in his book-
'India-What Can it teach us'-' Sanskrit no doubt has an immense
advantage over all other ancient language of the East. In a certain
Sense we are still speaking and thinking Sanskrit or more correctly
Sanskrit is like a dear aunt to use and she takes the place of a
mother who is no more. Let us take a brief look at additional evidence
to help verify the ides that Sanskrit was the original language of the
world, and that it is connected with numerous countries and cultures.
Latin and Persian are dialects of Sanskrit. Greek has borrowed a lot
from Sanskrit. French & English are full Sanskrit words, roots and
speech forms.
So, the identification of Himwatkhanda Nepal is associated with the
ancient Vedic Hindu religion. May all be happy in the world and let no
one suffer from disease and be sad. May no one keep ill will towards
another being.May all be liberal and compassionate? All humans of the
world are our relatives. ‘Basudhaiv Kutumbakam’. May all receive equal
amount of food, relation and shelter. Let us become a liberal
character of compassion and be active for omnipresent. May all worlds
be well? 'OM- Shanti' is Vedic Hindu customs cleansed indicative. The
welfare and happiness of all is the supreme system which is the belief
of the Vedic Hindu society. Dr. Basudev Krishna Shastri writes,
“Hindus worship the Sun. The light that emanates from Sun is common
for all. Without water no living being can survive. This is everyone’s
right. Such things are beyond divisions, and consumed by all as per
their necessity. For the prosperity of human life there must remain
equal right and prerogative among us. No one should be hindered from
contributing to their nation. So it is mentioned in the Veda, ‘Let us
all rise for national awareness.’” This shows that Hindu religion is
the vehicle that would show path to all human societies. Bramha-
Bishnu-Maheshwor (the three Lords) is the guidance of Vedic Hindu
life. In the ancient, Vedic Hindu religions the supreme is the ocean
where anyone can swim anyhow.
Vedic Hindu ancient religion is the devotee of Panchadev (the five
Gods). ‘OM’ is the follower of Vedic Hindu Panchadev. A suffering man
will remember one of the Pachayan Devs (the five Gods). Panchayan
means- it is compulsory to worship the Gods Ganesha, Devi, Surya,
Shiva and Bishnu. If one of them is discriminated while carrying out
the ritual of worship then the worship will not be complete. However,
some Hindu communities have developed their own definition which has
created controversy in the ancient Hindu beliefs. We are all the same.
We Hindus and Buddhists do not want to invite controversy and dispute.
Nepal is stable as a Hindu and Buddhist nation. Our respect to our
compatriot is based on the ancient Vedic Hindu religion. Our concern
and that of Buddhists’ corresponds to each other.
Swami Chandresh says, “It is clearly mentioned in all Hindu scriptures
as Geeta, Vedas, Yoga and Tantras that this particular religion is
supposed for all people of the world. Hindu religion does not believe
in creation of factions and conversion of religion. It believes in
turning an animal-like man to a human and a human to God. In
accordance with all Hindu scriptures a man earns his pride, power,
knowledge and money through Karma. The Vedic Hindu religion was born
of intense meditation, Yoga and deep interpretation of knowledge and
truth carried out by Rishis (sages) in the steppes of Himalaya. It
will be unwise to compare Nepal’s social conditions with Indian
cultural lifestyle. India has been influenced by Muslim religion and
Christian rule which had forced them into a slavish mentality for many
centuries, and they have been forced to live in compulsion, and have
been defiled.” We Nepali people are somewhat fortunate in a sense that
sovereignty of Nepal has not been defiled by foreigners.
‘Athmana Pratikulani Paresam nasamacharet’ meaning, ‘Don't do so for
others which you dislike to do or talk’. This is the chief policy of
Hinduism. But, a concerning crisis seen in the Hindu communities is
the growth of Vaisnav religion, Krishna Pranami, Jain, Shikh along
with different definitions and interpretations of religious Gurus has
created crisis in the Hindu communities. This has plunged the Hindu
religion into controversy. There have been foul attempts to create
artificial lacking in the ‘OMKAR’ (followers of OM).
A Hindu priest Keshav Dahal has analyzed the defects in the Hindu
belief in his book ‘Swadharma Nirnaya’ saying, “Those following the
Baisnav will not recognize other Gods save Bishnu. Those of Baisnav
Dharma drink the water which has rinsed a Guru’s feet and body. If the
wife is Baisnav then what the husband has touched will not be used in
a sense that it may defile. If the husband is Baisnav what his wife
cooks he will not touch. If a son is Baisnav then he will not
recognize his parents following the ancient Hindu religion. A Baisnav
despite changing his Gotra (ancestoral identity) will become a Gotri
whom has not fallen of the religious status. He does not carry out
the final rituals of his parents. In a final ritual of Baisnavs, they
must be present, no other. There are many examples of this causing
rifts in the family members; differences rising between son and
father, brothers and sisters, and relation between wife and husband
ending up.” Likewise, those following the Krishna Pranami do not
worship any Gods other than Krishna. They discard worshipping the
idols. They only worship the pictures of Krishna. It is said that
those following the ancient Hindus marrying with a person following
the Pranami will have to spend days weeping. In Nepal OM Shanti
religion or Bramhakumari has been growing for few years. In this
religious belief living together is forbidden. Those following this
belief are made to speak against the ancient Hindu religion. A woman
following this belief will have to live a life of spinster while a man
will have to live a bachelor. So the ‘OMKAR’ family of the ancient
Hindu religion is facing crisis. Following the Vedic Hindu Pachayan
Devs (the five Gods), Jain and Shikh are following their own beliefs.
Many Hindu families have even stopped speaking due to this aura of
competition that has pervaded the ancient Hindu religious communities.
Due to the presence of evil imperialism the ancient Hindu religion has
failed to organize itself. ‘Panchayan’ is the religion of any Hindu.
Those deciding to follow Baisnav, Krishna Pranami or Bramhakumari must
not detach themselves from the mainstream Hindu religion. In order to
make this possible the religious Gurus must not disseminate illusion
among their followers in an unacceptable way. The religious followers
that have grown with Rigved, Yarjuved, Arthaved and Samved recitals
should not distort the truth of Srimad Bhagwat Mahapurana, and try
attaining an imaginary enlightenment.
It is inappropriate to pollute the Hindu ocean by choosing the path of
four streams when the main stream is available. We must reach
understanding to rid the Hindu religion of the defects that were
advertently or inadvertently born of us. There are people (some
foreigners and brokers) wanting to destroy our civilization and create
division within us. It is our duty to be alert of these things. We
don’t need the knowledge of foreign religions. Hindu world is in
itself sufficient and Vedic Hindu religion is the pioneer of world’s
civilization. The reality is that in Hindu world, we need only to
evaluate the ‘Bishnu Avatar’ then we will find the world in it. The
ten avatars (incarnation) of God Bishnu, in order are- Matsyaroop
(Fish), Kurma (tortoise), Baraharoop (pig), Narsighroop (lion and
man), Baman (pigmy), (Brahman), Parashuram, Rama, Krishna, Buddha. We
can infer that ancient Vedic Hindu religion has remained creative in
guiding the civilization and human life. Hindu’s faith lies in
Bhramha- Bishnu- Maheshwor. In this way it has the ancient Vedic Hindu
religion bestowed its guidance in the growth of civilization and human
life?
We are proud to be Nepali. We want to be free of foreign intervention
pertaining to our national unity, our traditional culture, and we will
be free. Since the ancient times democracy has been a system that has
been exercised and recited in Himwatkhanda. We have been adopting as
the chief policy of giving equal opportunity to all to exercise their
freedom, and we have tried to provide food and shelter for all.
Religious freedom is our belief. Everyone has the right to follow
their own religion. However, by showing the attraction of money,
Christians have been alluring people to convert their religion; they
have become one of the destroyers the foundation of Hindu religion,
which we regard as enemies. Against such people all Hindu world must
unite. We must all know that to bring secularism is to invite war.
Regardless of who we are; Rai, Limbu, Magar, Gurung, Newar, Brahman,
Chetri, Kami, Damai, Sarki, Maithali, Bhojpuri, Awadhi among others,
we are all either Hindu or Buddhist. Some Sherpa, Tamang and Newars
are affiliated to Buddhism. No matter who follows what Pashupatinath
and Swayambunath lay in the same world?
Hindu religion is highly liberal in nature. Whether one worships an
idol or one is either vegetarian or non vegetarian we are all Hindus.
Hindus are free to live as they see fit. This religion is regarded as
highly democratic and liberal. However, there are conspiracies in
Nepal against Hindu and Buddhist religion. The Indian government
should realize the facts. We Nepalese people must act to retain our
identity. The ancient Vedic Hindu religion must drape these religions
that have chosen to go against humanity with the cloak of civilization
and harmony. Long live- 'Hinduism' in all over the world.
Email:dirghar...@gmail.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
kp.mishra
May 11, 2011, 2:01:48 AM5/11/11
to desi...@googlegroups.com
THE LORD SAYS JADA JADAHI DHARMASYA GLANIRBHABATI BHARAT .............................BINASAYA CHA DISKRITAM TADATMANAM SRIJAMIHAM. HENCE PARSURAM WAS NOT A TERRORIST ,HE KILLED THE OPPRESSORS AND SINNERS AND NOT KSYATRIYAS AS SUCH. ANYWAY HE IS NOT WORSHIPPED BY HINDUS.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages