WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

[ramans shriman]

shri gautam ji must also study the vedic monumental  book Nayay  Darshan written by his great...great... great..great ..great.... grand  father Maharishi  Gautam  to stop doing vitanda vaad on this forum. --- On Mon, 5/23/11, Bhavesh Merja <bcm...@gmail.com> wrote: श्री गौतम जी, वैदिक त्रेतवाद को समझने के लिए आप यजुर्वेद के ४० वें अध्याय का (अथवा ईशोपनिषद  का) प्रथम मंत्र "ईशा वास्यम..." पर स्वतन्त्र चिंतन करें | आपको तीनों सत्ताओं का बोध हो जाएगा | जैसे कि - १ ईश्वर (God) - जो अखिल जगत में व्यापक है | २ जगत = सृष्टि (Universe = Prakriti) - जिसमें पूर्वोक्त ईश्वर व्यापक है | ('व्याप्य' के बिना 'व्यापक' नहीं हो सकता |) ३ आत्मा (Soul) - त्याग पूर्वक भोग करने का तथा धन की लालच न करने का जिसे उपदेश किया गया है | इस उपदेश की आवश्यकता न तो सर्वज्ञ ईश्वर को है और न ही जड़ - अज्ञ - ज्ञान-शून्य जगत को है | इससे अल्पज्ञ जीवात्मा की सत्ता सिद्ध होती है, जिसके लिए उपदेश की अपेक्षा रहती है | यह तो मात्र एक उदाहरण है | वेदादि शास्त्रों में ऐसे कई प्रमाण हैं, जो ईश्वर-जीव-प्रकृति के त्रेतवाद का प्रतिपादन करते हैं | आप भी व्यवहार में त्रेत वाद ही का पालन करते हो - आत्मनिरीक्षण करने से पता चलेगा | विवाद करते रहना भिन्न बात है | = भावेश मेरजा On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 1:13 PM, GOUTAM CHATTERJEE <gchatt...@gmail.com> wrote: To Sri Bhavesh Merja from Goutam Chatterjee – Ref. yr. reply Sat, May 21, 2011. Subjects: (A) WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND? (B) Arya Samaj also says: "The mother should suckle the child only for the first six days." "It is best, therefore, for the mother not to suckle her child. Plasters should be applied to the breast that will soon dry up the milk." (A) 1. One means to say that Trait-vaad is the primary view of religion, not the advanced one. It is as ‘true’ as the Bachchon-Ka-Khel Khel apparent logic and Geocentric view due to optical illusion that the Earth is the centre of the universe and that the Sun goes round the Earth and it is not the Earth that goes round the Sun. At the most it may be as ‘true’ as the Heliocentric view which is a bit more sophisticated explanation by standards of children’s play and worldview. 2. You already know, “Jeeva Brahmaiva Naaparah” (“Jeeva is very much Brahman, not separate!”) The Aatman is not separate from the Infinite/Brahman. A confusion only occurs when an egoic/dualistic mindset conceives oneself (the ego) to be Brahman (god) or as separate from god. The point is that it is a confusion to impute that an individual/separate self truly exists apart from the whole at any time or can be equal to the whole, albeit this confusion is not uncommon. This is a large (but common) error, since Brahman is non-dual and universal (non-egoic). One way to word this, is that one's true nature is the non-dual universal and transpersonal timeless Self. In short, the atman, as a separate/independent self is an illusory error – a misconception and fancy (vikalpa). In the universalized state one sees all things in the self and the self in all things – one becomes aware of one’s being everywhere, aware directly of the different planes, their forces, their beings. Self-Realization is the knowing – in body, mind, and soul – that we are one with the omnipresence of God; that we do not have to pray that it come to us, that we are not merely near it at all times, but that God’s omnipresence is our omnipresence; that we are just as much a part of Him now as we ever will be. All we have to do is improve our knowing. 3. From the Vyaavahaarik (Satya) standpoint man can talk of the World of 'Matter' (that is the gross form of Energy [SHAKTI]; Physics also says that matter and energy are inter-convertible) and the World of 'Spirit' (Consciousness/SHIVA), though the former is a gross manifestation of the latter. The World of matter/energy is characterized by unceasing and incessant activity, which teaches us, that so long as we are in this world, 'inaction' will be the grossest sin. The world of the spirit/consciousness on the other hand, symbolizes glorious physical inactivity where the Self delves deep to contemplate upon the experience of its own effulgent Being (Sachchidananda = Sat+Chit+Ananda=Existence-Consciousness-Bliss). Man also knows that the best activity is possible only against a substratum of stable equilibrium or stability. The art and science of a truly successful life lies in pursuing the above two opposing objectives of the 'body' as well as the 'soul' to as greater a degree of perfection as possible. The Greatest Teacher of this art and science of life was Bhagwan Sri Krishna whose teachings were bequeathed to us through the Srimad Bhagwad Gita. (B) 4. Now I would like to know your views about Swami Dayanand’s ‘best’ gaenaecological/medical prescription in the Satyarth Prakash (The Light of Truth) Chapter 2 titled “The Upbringing of Children” (i.e., denying the baby the mother’s milk after ‘six days’ even under normal circumstances and also rendering the mother dry by ‘plastering’ her breasts after ‘six days’ of lactation and breastfeeding). The above-referred paragraph reads: “The mother should suckle the child only for the first six days, thereafter the wet-nurse; but the parents should see that the wet-nurse gets good food and drink. If the parents be too poor to afford a wet-nurse, cow's or goat's milk diluted with an equal quantity of water should be used; and such drugs as are productive of intellect, energy, and health should be added to the milk after being well soaked in pure water boiled, and strained. After confinement the mother and the child should be removed to another room, where the air is pure, and which is well furnished with scented and beautiful things. They should move about in a pure atmosphere. When neither the wet-nurses nor milk (cow's or goat's) can be procured, the parents should do what they think best at the time; but they must remember the child's body is made up of the elements derived from the body of the mother, which fact accounts for the mother getting weaker after each confinement. It is best, therefore, for the mother not to suckle her child. Plasters should be applied to the breast that will soon dry up the milk, by following this system the woman becomes strong again in about two months. Till then the husband should have thorough control over his passions, and thus preserve the reproductive element. Those that will follow this plan will have children of a superior order, enjoy long life, and continually gain in strength and energy so that all their children will be of a high mental calibre, strong, energetic, and devout. The woman should have her reproductive organs properly seen to, and the husband should practice continence.” (The Hindi version reads: “…Prasutaa kaa doodh chhah din tak baalak ko pilaawey….doodh rokne ke liye stan ke chhidra par ush aushadhi kaa lep kare jisse doodh sravit na ho. Aise karne se doosrey mahine mein punarapi yuvatii ho jaatii hai…”),   Do all ‘practising’ Arya Samajis enforce it on their babies and its mother? If yes, Why? If not, Why?   You know, the Ayurvedic practice, common Hindu practice and nevertheless the modern medical science recommends for mothers to breastfeed for six months or more, without the addition of infant formula or solid food. After the addition of solid food, it advises mothers to continue breast-feeding up to a year, and can continue until two years if mutually desired by mother and child. It says, mother’s milk is the healthiest form of milk for babies. There are a few exceptions, such as when the mother is dry or taking certain drugs or is infected with human T-lymphotropic virus, HIV, or has active untreated tuberculosis. Breastfeeding promotes health and helps to prevent disease. Artificial feeding is associated with more deaths from diarrhea in infants in both developing and developed countries. The World Health Organization (WHO) and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) emphasize the value of breastfeeding for mothers as well as children. Both recommend exclusive breastfeeding for the first six months of life and then supplemented breastfeeding for at least one year and up to two years or more. According to experts, benefits for the infant include greater immune health, fewer infections, protection from SIDS, higher intelligence, less diabetes, less childhood obesity, less tendency to develop allergic diseases (atopy), less necrotizing enterocolitis in premature infants, other long term health effects, less overweight, etc. Benefits for mothers include bonding, hormone release, etc. The AAP says: “Extensive research using improved epidemiologic methods and modern laboratory techniques documents diverse and compelling advantages for infants, mothers, families, and society from breastfeeding and use of human milk for infant feeding. These advantages include health, nutritional, immunologic, developmental, psychologic, social, economic, and environmental benefits.” -         Goutam Chatterjee------------------ On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Bhavesh Merja <bcm...@gmail.com> wrote:   Sri Goutam ji, Sorry ! I can't afford to spare time to comment on your all such lengthy posts. Why don't you put your thoughts in brief and point wise so that same may be considered worthy of comment? You have full freedom to reject Trait-Vaad and accept Adwait-vaad. But then in essence you may not remain Jeeva; you are then Brahman! I think Brahman should not  get involved in such debates. = Bhavesh Merja --------------- On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 7:59 PM, GOUTAM CHATTERJEE <gchatt...@gmail.com> wrote:   To Sri Bhavesh Merja from Goutam Chatterjee: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND? [‘Traitvaad’ (Trinity) means: eternally existing three fundamental entities: God, Soul and Matter. God is the ‘efficient cause’ only. However, the thought pattern revealed in the Rgveda and developed in the Upanisads holds that God is the ‘efficient cause’, ‘instrumental cause’ and the ‘material cause’ of the universe. The latter view is treated as more authentic and more universally accepted than others.] Let’s briefly examine the different stands of Hindu Cosmogenesis and the problems of Pain and Evil: (A-1) (a)  One knows there is a view that there is the eternal God, and there is eternal nature and there are also an infinite number of eternal souls. This is the first stage in religion. It is called dualism (Dwaitavaad), the stage when man sees himself and God eternally separate, when God is a separate entity by Himself and man is a separate entity by himself and nature is a separate entity by itself. This is dualism, which holds that the subject and the object are opposed to each other in everything. When man looks at nature, he is the subject and nature the object. He sees the dualism between subject and object. When he looks at God, he sees God as object and himself as the subject. They are entirely separate. This is the dualism between man and God. This is generally the first view of religion. The Arya Samaj celebrates it as Traitavaad=Trinity. (b) Then comes another view. Man begins to find out that if God is the cause of the universe and the universe the effect, God Himself must have become the universe and the souls, and he is but a particle of which God is the whole. We are but little beings, like sparks of a mass of fire, and the whole universe is a manifestation of God Himself. This is the next step. In Sanskrit, it is called Vishishtâdvaita. Just as we have this body and this body covers the soul, and the soul is in and through this body, so this whole universe of infinite souls and nature forms, as it were, the body of God. When the period of involution comes, the universe becomes finer and finer, yet remains the body of God. When the gross manifestation comes, then also the universe remains the body of God. Just as the human soul is the soul of the human body and mind so God is the Soul of our souls. We all have heard this expression in every religion, "Soul of our souls". That is what is meant by it. He, as it were, resides in them, guides them, is the ruler of them all. In the first view, that of dualism, each one of us is an individual, eternally separate from God and nature. In the second view, we are individuals, but not separate from God. We are like little particles floating in one mass, and that mass is God. We are individuals but one in God. We are all in Him. We are all parts of Him, and therefore we are One. And yet between man and man, man and God there is a strict individuality, separate and yet not separate. (c)  Then comes a still finer question. The question is: Can infinity have parts? What is meant by parts of infinity? If one reasons it out, one will find that it is impossible. Infinity cannot be divided, it always remains infinite. If it could be divided, each part would be infinite. And there cannot be two infinites. Suppose there were, one would limit the other, and both would be finite. Infinity can only be one, undivided. Thus the conclusion will be reached that the infinite is one and not many, and that one Infinite Soul is reflecting itself through thousands and thousands of mirrors, appearing as so many different souls. It is the same Infinite Soul, which is the background of the universe, that we call God. The same Infinite Soul also is the background of the human mind which we call the human soul. (i)                According to this view, the atman is not separate from Brahman. A confusion only occurs when an egoic/dualistic mindset conceives oneself (the ego) to be Brahman (god) or as separate from god. The point is that it is a confusion to impute that an individual/separate self truly exists apart from the whole at any time or can be equal to the whole, albeit this confusion is not uncommon. (ii)              This is a large (but common) error, since Brahman is non-dual and universal (non-egoic). One way to word this, is that one's true nature is the non-dual universal and transpersonal timeless Self. In short, the atman, as a separate/independent self is an illusory error – a misconception and fancy (vikalpa). (iii)            In the universalized state one sees all things in the self and the self in all things – one becomes aware of one’s being everywhere, aware directly of the different planes, their forces, their beings.     (A-2)  Hindu Cosmology (in the words of Swami Harshananda of RKM) This world in which we live, move, and have our being as it were, has been spurring the imagination of philosophers for millennia, about its origin and evolution. It will be an interesting, nay, even fascinating, experience to go through the various accounts of creation given in the Hindu scriptures and philosophical works. The Rgveda had dealt with this subject in a few hymns but there is no attempt at giving a cogent theory and well-reasoned philosophy. Before srsti or creation, Deva or God alone existed. He is our father. He desired to create. He manifested this world out of himself and entered into it (vide Rgveda 10.81.1; 10.5.7). The famous Purusasukta (Rgveda 10.90) describes the whole creation as having come out of the Purusa or primeval Being, using the allegory of a sacrifice. Allied Vedic works like the Braahmanas hold similar views. The Taittiriya Braahmana by implication declares (2.8.9.7) that the Deva is both the material and the efficient cause of this universe. The words ‘Visvakarmaa’ (one, whose work this world is), ‘Hiranyagarbha’ (golden egg) and ‘Prajaapati’ (lord of beings) have also been used in this work to denote the Creator. In some of the Vedic accounts of creation, primeval waters form the first product from which subsequent creation takes place. We thus see two streams of thought here: one advocating evolution of the world from God and the other, creation by God. Accounts of creation usually contain accounts of sustenance and dissolution (sthiti and pralaya) also. The Upanishads which contain more specific references to creation, generally follow the Vedic thought pattern. Before creation, Brahman, also called Aatman or Sat, alone existed. It desired to become many and created tejas or fire, ap or water and anna or earth. They are the three fundamental elements from which the whole creation came out (vide Chhaandogya Upanishad 6.2). Some other Upanishads trace the evolution of the world from the Aatman through the panchabhutas or five fundamental elements (vide Taittiriya Upanishad 2.1; 2.6) and others like the Prasna (1.4), through the creation of matter and spirit (rayi and praana). There are also accounts according to which the individual souls have sprung from Brahman like sparks from the fire (Mundaka Upanishad 2.1.1). The idea that Brahman, having created the world, has entered into it and controls it from within, is also advocated (Taittiriya Upanishad 2.6). The epics and the puraanas give their own, variegated, accounts of creation. In one pattern of descriptions, Visnu or Naaraayana brings forth Brahmaa (the four-faced creator) who subsequently creates the various worlds (numbering 3 or 7 or even 14) and their denizens out of himself. In another set of descriptions, Naaraayana creates a golden egg (Hiranyagarbha) which starts floating on the primeval waters. He himself animates it, breaks it into two, forming the earth and heaven. The Purusa or Prajaapati that comes out of it then creates all beings. The Creator dividing himself into two, the male and the female principles, and their union giving rise to the whole creation is also found in some descriptions. In fact this theory is based on similar descriptions found in Upanishads like the Brihadaaranyaka (1.4.2-4). The Sad-darsanas or the six philosophical systems, also discuss this question and give their own theories. The Nyaaya and Vaisesika schools state that Isvara or God creates the world out of the eternal substances like atoms, space, time, ether, mind and souls. He is also responsible for the sustenance and dissolution of the world. The Saankhya and the Yoga systems posit the theory that prakriti or primeval nature (consisting of the three gunas of sattva, rajas and tamas) evolves by stages into this world due to the will of Isvara (God) and the presence of the purusas or individual souls. This theory is echoed in some of the puraanas also. The Purvamimaamsaa system considers the world and souls to be eternally there – neither created nor destroyed – but regulated by karma (unseen effects of actions done). The Vedaanta system just organizes the philosophy of the Upanisads. The Advaita Vedanta of Sankara (CE 788-820) considers the world as an illusory appearance in Brahman, the real substratum. Though the general theory of creation given in the Upanisads is accepted, it is given only an empirical status. The theistic schools of Vedanta, of Raamaanuja (CE 1017-1137) and of Madhva (CE 1197-1276) on the other hand, accept the reality of creation and the created world. It is thus seen that there are so many varieties and types of description of the creation process that it is difficult to put forward any definite theories. However, the thought pattern revealed in the Rgveda and developed in the Upanisads may be treated as more authentic and more universally accepted than others. Summarized briefly, it states that God the Absolute, creates the world out of himself, out of his own will, sustains it and rules over it, and dissolves it at the end of a cycle. This cycle of creation, sustenance and dissolution goes on eternally. The whole purpose of creation is to give the jivas or the individual souls in bondage, one more chance for redemption and liberation from transmigration. This being the main theme of Hindu philosophy and religion, it has not paid much attention to the details of the process of creation. (A-3) Sri Aurobindo’s Theory of Creation (in brief) In The Life Divine and elsewhere Sri Aurobindo argues that humankind as an entity is not the last rung in the evolutionary scale, but can evolve spiritually beyond its current limitations associated with an essential ignorance to a future state of supramental existence. This further evolutionary step would lead to a divine life on Earth characterized by a supramental or truth-consciousness, and a transformed and divinised life and material form. Sri Aurobindo speaks of two movements in the creation process: that of involution of consciousness from an omnipresent Reality to a universe of forms, and an evolution upward through creation and man. Involution The process by which the Energy of creation emerged from a timeless, spaceless, ineffable, immutable Reality, Sri Aurobindo refers to as the Involution. In that process the Reality extended itself to Being/Existence (Sat), Consciousness (that generated a Force) - Chit; and Delight (Ananda)-- self enjoyment in existing and being conscious. Through the action of a fourth dimension, Supermind (i.e. Truth Consciousness), the Force (Chit) of Sat-Chit-Ananda was divided into Knowledge and Will, eventually formulating as an invisible Energy that would become the source of creation. Through its own willful self-absorption of consciousness, the universe would begin as Inconscient material existence. Evolution The process of conscious existence emerging out of the Inconscient is referred to in The Jeevan Divine as evolution. Initially, it emerges gradually in the stages of matter, life, and mind. First matter evolves from simple to complex forms, then life emerges in matter and evolves from simple to complex forms, finally mind emerges in life and evolves from rudimentary to higher forms of thought and reason. As each new principle emerges, the previous stages remain but are integrated into the higher principle. Humanity represents the stage of development of mind in complex material forms of life. The higher development of mind in the mass of humanity is not yet a secure possession. Reason and intellect still do not dominate the life of most human beings; rather, mind tends to be turned to the purposes of the life principle, which is focused on self-preservation, self-assertion, and satisfaction of personal need and desire. But evolution does not cease with the establishment of reason and intellect; beyond mind are higher levels of a spiritual and supramental consciousness which in the nature of things must also emerge. This higher evolution is described as a dual movement; inward, away from the surface consciousness and into the depths, culminating in the realization of the Psychic Being (the personal evolving soul); and then upward to higher levels of spiritual mind (Higher Mind, Illumined Mind, Intuitive Mind, and Overmind), culminating in the final stage of supramentalisation. Whereas these higher levels of consciousness have been attained in particular individuals, they must eventually emerge more universally as general stages in the evolution. When they do emerge, there will come the embodiment of a new species on earth that will be once again united in consciousness with Sachchidananda. (For details, read Annexure-I titled “Reality Omnipresent” by Sri Aurobindo)     (B-1) God Being All-Good, Who Created Pain and Evil? With kind authorization as published in ‘New Race’, Footnotes to the Future, Institute of Human Study, Sri Aurobindo Centre for Advanced Research in Integral and future Studies, Pondicherry, India Sri Aurobindo  God being All-Good, who created pain and evil? If we say that pain is a trial and an ordeal, we do not solve the moral problem, we arrive at an immoral or non-moral God, – an excellent world-mechanist perhaps, a cunning psychologist, but not a God of Good and of Love whom we can worship, only a God of Might to whose law we must submit or whose caprice we may hope to propitiate. For one who invents torture as a means of test or ordeal, stands convicted either of deliberate cruelty or of moral insensibility and, if a moral being at all, is inferior to the highest instinct of his own creatures. And if to escape this moral difficulty, we say that pain is an inevitable result and natural punishment of moral evil, – an explanation which will not even square with the facts of life unless we admit the theory of Karma and rebirth by which the soul suffers now for antenatal sins in other bodies, – we still do not escape the very root of the ethical problem, – who created or why or whence was created that moral evil which entails the punishment of pain and suffering? And seeing that moral evil is in reality a form of mental disease or ignorance, who or what created this law or inevitable connection which punishes a mental disease or act of ignorance by a recoil so terrible, by tortures often so extreme and monstrous? The inexorable law of Karma is irreconcilable with a supreme moral and personal Deity, and therefore the clear logic of Buddha denied the existence of any free and all-governing personal God; all personality he declared to be a creation of ignorance and subject to Karma. In truth, the difficulty thus sharply presented arises only if we assume the existence of an extracosmic personal God, not Himself the universe, one who has created good and evil, pain and suffering for His creatures, but Himself stands above and unaffected by them, watching, ruling, doing His will with a suffering and struggling world or, if not doing His will, if allowing the world to be driven by an inexorable law, unhelped by Him or inefficiently helped, then not God, not omnipotent, not all-good and all- loving. On no theory of an extracosmic moral God, can evil and suffering be explained, – the creation of evil and suffering, – except by an unsatisfactory subterfuge which avoids the question at issue instead of answering it or a plain or implied Manicheanism which practically annuls the Godhead in attempting to justify its ways or excuse its works. But such a God is not the Vedantic Sachchidananda. Sachchidananda of the Vedanta is one existence without a second; all that is, is He. If then evil and suffering exist, it is He that bears the evil and suffering in the creature in whom He has embodied Himself. The problem then changes entirely. The question is no longer how came God to create for His creatures a suffering and evil of which He is Himself incapable and therefore immune, but how came the sole and infinite Existence-Consciousness-Bliss to admit into itself that which is not bliss, that which seems to be its positive negation. Suffering and All-Delight As to the suffering, which is so great a stumbling- block to our understanding of the universe, it is evidently a consequence of the limitation of consciousness, the restriction of force which prevents us from mastering or assimilating the touch of what is to us other-force: the result of this incapacity and disharmony is that the delight of the touch cannot be seized and it affects our sense with a reaction of discomfort or pain, a defect or excess, a discord resultant in inner or outer injury, born of division between our power of being and the power of being that meets us. Behind in our self and spirit is the All-Delight of the universal being which takes its account of the contact, .a delight first in the enduring and then in the conquest of the suffering and finally in its transmutation that shall come hereafter; for pain and suffering are a perverse and contrary term of the delight of existence and they can turn into their opposite, even into the original All- Delight, Ananda. Suffering - Soul's Training And what of suffering and happiness, misfortune and prosperity? These are experiences of the soul in its training, helps, props, means, disciplines, tests, ordeals, – and prosperity often a worse ordeal than suffering. Indeed, adversity, suffering may often be regarded rather as a reward to virtue than as a punishment for sin, since it turns out to be the greatest help and purifier of the soul struggling to unfold itself. To regard it merely as the stern award of a Judge, the anger of an irritated Ruler or even the mechanical recoil of result of evil upon cause of evil is to take the most superficial view possible of God's dealings with the soul and the law of its evolution. And what of worldly prosperity, wealth, progeny, the outward enjoyment of art, beauty, power? Good, if they be achieved without loss to the soul and enjoyed only as the outflowing of the divine Joy and Grace upon our material existence. But let us seek them first for others or rather for all, and for ourselves only as a part of the universal condition or as one means of bringing perfection nearer. Do not take the sorrows of life for what they seem to be, they are in truth a way to greater achievements. The Mother [For details, see Annexure-II given below : The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood, Error, Wrong and Evil (by Sri Aurobindo)]   (A & B): SUMMARY : (i)                The world is a manifestation of the Real and therefore itself real. The reality is the infinite and eternal Divine, infinite and eternal Being, Consciousness-Force and Bliss. This Divine by his power and Liilaa has created the world or rather manifested it in his own infinite Being. But here in the material world (Kshara Zone) or at its basis he has hidden himself in what seem to be his opposites, Non-Being, Inconscience and Insentience. This is what we nowadays call the Inconscient which seems to have created the material universe by its inconscient Energy, but this is only an appearance, for we find in the end that all the dispositions of the world can only have been arranged by the working of a supreme secret intelligence. The Being which is hidden in what seems to be an inconscient void emerges in the world first in Matter, then in Life, then in Mind and finally as the Spirit. The apparently inconscient Energy which creates is in fact the Consciousness-Force of the Divine and its aspect of consciousness, secret in Matter, begins to emerge in Life, finds something more of itself in Mind and finds its true self in a spiritual consciousness and finally a Supramental consciousness through which we become aware of the Reality, enter into it and unite ourselves with it. This is what we call evolution which is an evolution of consciousness and an evolution of the Spirit in things, and only outwardly an evolution of species. Thus also, the delight of existence emerges from the original insentience, first in the contrary forms of pleasure and pain and then has to find itself in the bliss of the Spirit or as it is called in the Upanishads, the bliss of the Brahman. (ii)              Reality as Self bases, supports, informs and pervades the worlds. This is also called the Brahman. Reality as Purusha, that is conscious being, witnesses and experiences. Reality as Ishwara wills, governs and possesses Its world of manifestation created and kept in motion and action by Its own conscious force which is variously termed as Maya, Prakriti and Shakti. (iii)            Matter is another form of Consciousness-Force. It is a form of the Spirit, a habitation of the Spirit, and here, in matter itself, there can be a realization of the Spirit. Matter consciousness is inert as well as largely subconscious (but never ever ‘unconscious’) – active only when driven by an energy, otherwise inactive and immobile. [‘Matter’, in fact, has ‘no independent/exclusive existence’. It is a concentrated form of energy and both are very much interconvertible. The Hindu philosophy goes further deep into it and declares that consciousness – which is an integral characteristic of Sat-Cit-Ananda Absolute – is the origin of energy and matter.] The discerning ones say that when one first falls into direct contact with this level, the feeling in the body is that of inertia and immobility, in the vital-physical exhaustion or lassitude, in the physical mind absence of prakaasa and pravritti (Light and movement) or only the most ordinary thoughts and impulses. Once it is illumined, the advantage is that the sub-conscient becomes conscient and this removes a very fundamental obstacle from the saadhanaa. Material things are not to be despised; without them there can be no manifestation in the material world. Physical things have a consciousness within them which feels and responds to care and is sensitive to careless touch and rough handling. (iv)            There is the universal mental, the universal vital, the universal physical Nature and it is out of a selection of their forces and movements that the individual mind, vital and physical are made. The three Gunas (primal qualities that form the nature of things), viz., sattva – the quality that illumines, clarity; rajas – the quality that drives to action, energy; tamas – the quality that hides or darkens, inertia – do play their parts with various combinations and permutations in nature and life. With sadhana the three Gunas also become purified and refined and changed into their divine equivalents : sattva becomes jyoti, the authentic spiritual light; rajas becomes tapas, the tranquilly intense divine force; tamas becomes sama, the divine quiet, rest, peace. (v)              The physical is not the only world; there are others that we become aware of through dream records, through the subtle senses, through influences and contacts, through imagination, intuition and vision. There are worlds of a larger subtler life than ours, vital worlds; worlds in which Mind builds its own forms and figures, mental worlds; psychic worlds which are the soul’s home; others above with which man has little contact. (vi)           Cell is a marvel of design and efficiency (Yat Pinde, Tat Brahmaande! Let’s understand a microcosm, we will understand the macrocosm and how One becomes Many!) Cells are the smallest structures capable of basic life processes, such as taking in nutrients, expelling waste, and reproducing. All living things are composed of cells. Some microscopic organisms, such as bacteria and protozoa, are unicellular, meaning they consist of a single cell. Plants, animals, and fungi are multicellular; that is, they are composed of a great many cells working in concert. But whether it makes up an entire bacterium or is just one of millions in a human being, the cell is a marvel of design and efficiency. Cells carry out thousands of biochemical reactions each minute and reproduce new cells that perpetuate life. Stem cells are biological cells found in all multicellular organisms, that can divide through mitosis and differentiate into diverse specialized cell types and can self renew to produce more stem cells.   -         Goutam Chatterjee --------------------------------- Annexure-I : “Reality Omnipresent” by Sri Aurobindo Integral Yoga Literature - By Sri Aurobindo Selections from the Sri Aurobindo Birth Centenary Library from Volume 18 and 19, The Life Divine COPYRIGHT NOTICE: The contents of this document are copyright 1972, Sri Aurobindo Ashram Trust, Pondicherry, India. You may make a digital copy or printout of this text for your personal, non-commercial use under the condition that you copy this document without modifications and in its entirety, including this copyright notice. Book One, Chapter Four, Reality Omnipresent If one knows Him as Brahman the Non-Being, he becomes merely the non-existent. If one knows that Brahman Is, then is he known as the real in existence. Taittiriya Upanishad, II.6 SINCE, then, we admit both the claim of the pure Spirit to manifest in us its absolute freedom and the claim of universal Matter to be the mould and condition of our manifestation, we have to find a truth that can entirely reconcile these antagonists and can give to both their due portion in Life and their due justification in Thought, amercing neither of its rights, denying in neither the sovereign truth from which even its errors, even the exclusiveness of its exaggerations draw so constant a strength. For wherever there is an extreme statement that makes such a powerful appeal to the human mind, we may be sure that we are standing in the presence of no mere error, superstition or hallucination, but of some sovereign fact disguised which demands our fealty and will avenge itself if denied or excluded. Herein lies the difficulty of a satisfying solution and the source of that lack of finality which pursues all mere compromises between Spirit and Matter. A compromise is a bargain, a transaction of interests between two conflicting powers; it is not a true reconciliation. True reconciliation proceeds always by a mutual comprehension leading to some sort of intimate oneness. It is therefore through the utmost possible unification of Spirit and Matter that we shall best arrive at their reconciling truth and so at some strongest foundation for a reconciling practice in the inner life of the individual and his outer existence. We have found already in the cosmic consciousness a meeting-place where Matter becomes real to Spirit, Spirit becomes real to Matter. For in the cosmic consciousness Mind and Life are intermediaries and no longer, as they seem in the ordinary egoistic mentality, agents of separation, fomenters of an artificial quarrel between the positive and negative principles of the same unknowable Reality. Attaining to the cosmic consciousness Mind, illuminated by a knowledge that perceives at once the truth of Unity and the truth of Multiplicity and seizes on the formulae of their interaction, finds its own discords at once explained and reconciled by the divine Harmony; satisfied, it consents to become the agent of that supreme union between God and Life towards which we tend. Matter reveals itself to the realising thought and to the subtilised senses as the figure and body of Spirit, -- Spirit in its self-formative extension. Spirit reveals itself through the same consenting agents as the soul, the truth, the essence of Matter. Both admit and confess each other as divine, real and essentially one. Mind and Life are disclosed in that illumination as at once figures and instruments of the supreme Conscious Being by which It extends and houses Itself in material form and in that form unveils Itself to Its multiple centres of consciousness. Mind attains its self-fulfilment when it becomes a pure mirror of the Truth of Being which expresses itself in the symbols of the universe; Life, when it consciously lends its energies to the perfect self-figuration of the Divine in ever-new forms and activities of the universal existence. In the light of this conception we can perceive the possibility of a divine life for man in the world which will at once justify Science by disclosing a living sense and intelligible aim for the cosmic and the terrestrial evolution and realise by the transfiguration of the human soul into the divine the great ideal dream of all high religions. But what then of that silent Self, inactive, pure, self-existent, self-enjoying, which presented itself to us as the abiding justification of the ascetic? Here also harmony and not irreconcilable opposition must be the illuminative truth. The silent and the active Brahman are not different, opposite and irreconcilable entities, the one denying, the other affirming a cosmic illusion; they are one Brahman in two aspects, positive and negative, and each is necessary to the other. It is out of this Silence that the Word which creates the worlds for ever proceeds; for the Word expresses that which is self-hidden in the Silence. It is an eternal passivity which makes possible the perfect freedom and omnipotence of an eternal divine activity in innumerable cosmic systems. For the becomings of that activity derive their energies and their illimitable potency of variation and harmony from the impartial support of the immutable Being, its consent to this infinite fecundity of its own dynamic Nature. Man, too, becomes perfect only when he has found within himself that absolute calm and passivity of the Brahman and supports by it with the same divine tolerance and the same divine bliss a free and inexhaustible activity. Those who have thus possessed the Calm within can perceive always welling out from its silence the perennial supply of the energies that work in the universe. It is not, therefore, the truth of the Silence to say that it is in its nature a rejection of the cosmic activity. The apparent incompatibility of the two states is an error of the limited Mind which, accustomed to trenchant oppositions of affirmation and denial and passing suddenly from one pole to the other, is unable to conceive of a comprehensive consciousness vast and strong enough to include both in a simultaneous embrace. The Silence does not reject the world; it sustains it. Or rather it supports with an equal impartiality the activity and the withdrawal from the activity and approves also the reconciliation by which the soul remains free and still even while it lends itself to all action. But, still, there is the absolute withdrawal, there is the Non-Being. Out of the Non-Being, says the ancient Scripture, Being appeared. (1) Then into the Non-Being it must surely sink again. If the infinite indiscriminate Existence permits all possibilities of discrimination and multiple realisation, does not the Non-Being at least, as primal state and sole constant reality, negate and reject all possibility of a real universe? The Nihil of certain Buddhist schools would then be the true ascetic solution; the Self, like the ego, would be only an ideative formation by an illusory phenomenal consciousness. 1.In the beginning all this was the Non-Being. It was thence that Being was born. -- Taittiriya Upanishad. II. 7. But again we find that we are being misled by words, deceived by the trenchant oppositions of our limited mentality with its fond reliance on verbal distinctions as if they perfectly represented ultimate truths and its rendering of our supramental experiences in the sense of those intolerant distinctions. Non-Being is only a word. When we examine the fact it represents, we can no longer be sure that absolute non-existence has any better chance than the infinite Self of being more than an ideative formation of the mind. We really mean by this Nothing something beyond the last term to which we can reduce our purest conception and our most abstract or subtle experience of actual being as we know or conceive it while in this universe. This Nothing then is merely a something beyond positive conception. We erect a fiction of nothingness in order to overpass, by the method of total exclusion, all that we can know and consciously are. Actually when we examine closely the Nihil of certain philosophies, we begin to perceive that it is a zero which is All or an indefinable Infinite which appears to the mind a blank, because mind grasps only finite constructions, but is in fact the only true Existence. (1) 1. Another Upanishad rejects the birth of being out of Non-Being as an impossibility; Being, it says, can only be born from Being. But if we take Non-Being in the sense, not of an inexistent Nihil but of an x which exceeds our idea or experience of existence, -- a sense applicable to the Absolute Brahman of the Adwaita as well as the Void or Zero of the Buddhists, -- the impossibility disappears, for That may very well be the source of being, whether by a conceptual or formative Maya or a manifestation or creation out of itself. And when we say that out of Non-Being Being appeared, we perceive that we are speaking in terms of Time about that which is beyond Time. For what was that portentous date in the history of eternal Nothing on which Being was born out of it or when will come that other date equally formidable on which an unreal all will relapse into the perpetual void? Sat and Asat, if they have both to be affirmed, must be conceived as if they obtained simultaneously. They permit each other even though they refuse to mingle. Both, since we must speak in terms of Time, are eternal. And who shall persuade eternal Being that it does not really exist and only eternal Non-Being is? In such a negation of all experience how shall we find the solution that explains all experience? Pure Being is the affirmation by the Unknowable of Itself as the free base of all cosmic existence. We give the name of Non-Being to a contrary affirmation of Its freedom from all cosmic existence, -- freedom, that is to say, from all positive terms of actual existence which consciousness in the universe can formulate to itself, even from the most abstract, even from the most transcendent. It does not deny them as a real expression of Itself, but It denies Its limitation by all expression or any expression whatsoever. The Non-Being permits the Being, even as the Silence permits the Activity. By this simultaneous negation and affirmation, not mutually destructive, but complementary to each other like all contraries, the simultaneous awareness of conscious Self-being as a reality and the Unknowable beyond as the same Reality becomes realisable to the awakened human soul. Thus was it possible for the Buddha to attain the state of Nirvana and yet act puissantly in the world, impersonal in his inner consciousness, in his action the most powerful personality that we know of as having lived and produced results upon earth. When we ponder on these things, we begin to perceive how feeble in their self-assertive violence and how confusing in their misleading distinctness are the words that we use. We begin also to perceive that the limitations we impose on the Brahman arise from a narrowness of experience in the individual mind which concentrates itself on one aspect of the Unknowable and proceeds forthwith to deny or disparage all the rest. We tend always to translate too rigidly what we can conceive or know of the Absolute into the terms of our own particular relativity. We affirm the One and Identical by passionately discriminating and asserting the egoism of our own opinions and partial experiences against the opinions and partial experiences of others. It is wiser to wait, to learn, to grow, and, since we are obliged for the sake of our self-perfection to speak of these things which no human speech can express, to search for the widest, the most flexible, the most catholic affirmation possible and found on it the largest and most comprehensive harmony. We recognise, then, that it is possible for the consciousness in the individual to enter into a state in which relative existence appears to be dissolved and even Self seems to be an inadequate conception. It is possible to pass into a Silence beyond the Silence. But this is not the whole of our ultimate experience, nor the single and all-excluding truth. For we find that this Nirvana, this self-extinction, while it gives an absolute peace and freedom to the soul within is yet consistent in practice with a desireless but effective action without. This possibility of an entire motionless impersonality and void Calm within doing outwardly the works of the eternal verities, Love, Truth and Righteousness, was perhaps the real gist of the Buddha's teaching, -- this superiority to ego and to the chain of personal workings and to the identification with mutable form and idea, not the petty ideal of an escape from the trouble and suffering of the physical birth. In any case, as the perfect man would combine in himself the silence and the activity, so also would the completely conscious soul reach back to the absolute freedom of the Non-Being without therefore losing its hold on Existence and the universe. It would thus reproduce in itself perpetually the eternal miracle of the divine Existence, in the universe, yet always beyond it and even, as it were, beyond itself. The opposite experience could only be a concentration of mentality in the individual upon Non-existence with the result of an oblivion and personal withdrawal from a cosmic activity still and always proceeding in the consciousness of the Eternal Being. Thus, after reconciling Spirit and Matter in the cosmic consciousness, we perceive the reconciliation, in the transcendental consciousness, of the final assertion of all and its negation. We discover that all affirmations are assertions of status or activity in the Unknowable; all the corresponding negations are assertions of Its freedom both from and in that status or activity. The Unknowable is Something to us supreme, wonderful and ineffable which continually formulates Itself to our consciousness and continually escapes from the formulation It has made. This it does not as some malicious spirit or freakish magician leading us from falsehood to greater falsehood and so to a final negation of all things, but as even here the Wise beyond our wisdom guiding us from reality to ever profounder and vaster reality until we find the profoundest and vastest of which we are capable. An omnipresent reality is the Brahman, not an omnipresent cause of persistent illusions. If we thus accept a positive basis for our harmony -- and on what other can harmony be founded? -- the various conceptual formulations of the Unknowable, each of them representing a truth beyond conception, must be understood as far as possible in their relation to each other and in their effect upon life, not separately, not exclusively, not so affirmed as to destroy or unduly diminish all other affirmations. The real Monism, the true Adwaita, is that which admits all things as the one Brahman and does not seek to bisect Its existence into two incompatible entities, an eternal Truth and an eternal Falsehood, Brahman and not-Brahman, Self and not-Self, a real Self and an unreal yet perpetual Maya. If it be true that the Self alone exists, it must be also true that all is the Self. And if this Self, God or Brahman is no helpless state, no bounded power, no limited personality, but the self-conscient All, there must be some good and inherent reason in it for the manifestation, to discover which we must proceed on the hypothesis of some potency, some wisdom, some truth of being in all that is manifested. The discord and apparent evil of the world must in their sphere be admitted, but not accepted as our conquerors. The deepest instinct of humanity seeks always and seeks wisely wisdom as the last word of the universal manifestation, not an eternal mockery and illusion, -- a secret and finally triumphant good, not an all-creative and invincible evil, -- an ultimate victory and fulfilment, not the disappointed recoil of the soul from its great adventure. For we cannot suppose that the sole Entity is compelled by something outside or other than Itself, since no such thing exists. Nor can we suppose that It submits unwillingly to something partial within Itself which is hostile to its whole Being, denied by It and yet too strong for It; for this would be only to erect in other language the same contradiction of an All and something other than the All. Even if we say that the universe exists merely because the Self in its absolute impartiality tolerates all things alike, viewing with indifference all actualities and all possibilities, yet is there something that wills the manifestation and supports it, and this cannot be something other than the All. Brahman is indivisible in all things and whatever is willed in the world has been ultimately willed by the Brahman. It is only our relative consciousness, alarmed or baffled by the phenomena of evil, ignorance and pain in the cosmos, that seeks to deliver the Brahman from responsibility for Itself and its workings by erecting some opposite principle, Maya or Mara, conscious Devil or self-existent principle of evil. There is one Lord and Self and the many are only His representations and becomings. If then the world is a dream or an illusion or a mistake, it is a dream originated and willed by the Self in its totality and not only originated and willed, but supported and perpetually entertained. Moreover, it is a dream existing in a Reality and the stuff of which it is made is that Reality, for Brahman must be the material of the world as well as its base and continent. If the gold of which the vessel is made is real, how shall we suppose that the vessel itself is a mirage? We see that these words, dream, illusion, are tricks of speech, habits of our relative consciousness; they represent a certain truth, even a great truth, but they also misrepresent it. Just as Non-Being turns out to be other than mere nullity, so the cosmic Dream turns out to be other than mere phantasm and hallucination of the mind. Phenomenon is not phantasm; phenomenon is the substantial form of a Truth. We start, then, with the conception of an omnipresent Reality of which neither the Non-Being at the one end nor the universe at the other are negations that annul; they are rather different states of the Reality, obverse and reverse affirmations. The highest experience of this Reality in the universe shows it to be not only a conscious Existence, but a supreme Intelligence and Force and a self-existent Bliss; and beyond the universe it is still some other unknowable existence, some utter and ineffable Bliss. Therefore we are justified in supposing that even the dualities of the universe, when interpreted not as now by our sensational and partial conceptions, but by our liberated intelligence and experience, will be also resolved into those highest terms. While we still labour under the stress of the dualities, this perception must no doubt constantly support itself on an act of faith, but a faith which the highest Reason, the widest and most patient reflection do not deny, but rather affirm. This creed is given, indeed, to humanity to support it on its journey, until it arrives at a stage of development when faith will be turned into knowledge and perfect experience and Wisdom will be justified of her works. ----------------------------- Annexure-II Chapter XIV The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood, Error, Wrong and Evil (by Sri Aurobindo) The Lord accepts the sin and the virtue of none; because knowledge is veiled by Ignorance, mortal men are deluded. Gita.1 They live according to another idea of self than the reality, deluded, attached, expressing a falsehood,– as if by an enchantment they see the false as the true. Maitrayani Upanishad.2 They live and move in the Ignorance and go round and round, battered and stumbling, like blind men led by one who is blind. Mundaka Upanishad.3 One whose intelligence has attained to Unity, casts away from him both sin and virtue. Gita.4 He who has found the bliss of the Eternal is afflicted no more by the thought, “Why have I not done the good? Why have I done evil?” One who knows the self extricates himself from both these things. Taittiriya Upanishad.5 These are they who are conscious of the much falsehood in the world; they grow in the house of Truth, they are the strong and invincible sons of Infinity. Rig Veda.6 The first and the highest are truth; in the middle there is falsehood, but it is taken between the truth on both sides of it and it draws its being from the truth.7 Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.8 If Ignorance is in its nature a self-limiting knowledge oblivious of the integral self-awareness and confined to an exclusive concentration in a single field or upon a concealing surface of cosmic movement, what, in this view, are we to make 1 V. 15.     2 VII.10. 3 I. 2. 8. 4 II. 50. 5 II. 9. 6 VII. 60. 5. 7 The truth of the physical reality and the truth of the spiritual and superconscient reality. Into the intermediate subjective and mental realities which stand between them, falsehood can enter, but it takes either truth from above or truth from below as the substance out of which it builds itself and both are pressing upon it to turn its misconstructions into truth of life and truth of spirit. 8 V. 5. 1. XIV. The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood, Error, Wrong and Evil 597 IF IGNORANCE is in its nature a self-limiting knowledge oblivious of the integral self-awareness and confined to an exclusive concentration in a single field or upon a concealing surface of cosmic movement, what, in this view, are we to make of the problem which most poignantly preoccupies the mind of man when it is turned on the mystery of his own existence and of cosmic existence, the problem of evil? A limited knowledge supported by a secret All-Wisdom as an instrument for working out within the necessary limitations a restricted world-order may be admitted as an intelligible process of the universal Consciousness and Energy; but the necessity of falsehood and error, the necessity of wrong and evil or their utility in the workings of the omnipresent Divine Reality is less easily admissible. And yet if that Reality is what we have supposed it to be, there must be some necessity for the appearance of these con-trary phenomena, some significance, some function that they had to serve in the economy of the universe. For in the complete and inal-ienable self-knowledge of the Brahman which is necessarily all-knowledge, since all this that is is the Brahman, such phenomena cannot have come in as a chance, an intervening accident, an invol-untary forgetfulness or confusion of the Consciousness-Force of the All-Wise in the cosmos or an ugly contretemps for which the ind-welling Spirit was not prepared and of which it is the prisoner erring in a labyrinth with the utmost difficulty of escape. Nor can it be an inexplicable mystery of being, original and eternal, of which the di-vine All-Teacher is incapable of giving an account to himself or to us. There must be behind it a significance of the All-Wisdom itself, a power of the All-Consciousness which permits and uses it for some indispensable function in the present workings of our self-experience and world-experience. This aspect of existence needs now to be examined more directly and determined in its origins and the limits of its reality and its place in Nature. This problem may be taken up from three points of view,– its relation to the Absolute, the supreme Reality, its origin and place in the cosmic workings, its action and point of hold in the individual being. It is evident that these contrary phenomena have no direct root in the supreme Reality itself, there is noth-ing there that has this character; they are creations of the Igno-rance and Inconscience, not fundamental or primary aspects of the Being, not native to the Transcendence or to the infinite pow-er of the Cosmic Spirit. It is sometimes reasoned that as Truth and Good have their absolutes, so Falsehood and Evil must also have their absolutes, or, if it is not so, then both must belong to the relativity only; Knowledge and Ignorance, Truth and Falsehood, Good and Evil exist only in relation to each other and beyond the dualities here they have no existence. But this is not the fundamental truth of the rela-tion of these opposites; for, in the first place, Falsehood and Evil are, unlike Truth and Good, very clearly results of the Ignorance and cannot exist where there is no Ignorance: they can have no self-ex-istence in the Divine Being, they cannot be native elements of the Supreme Nature. If, then, the limited Knowledge which is the na-ture of Ignorance renounces its limitations, if Ignorance disappears into Knowledge, evil and falsehood can no longer endure: for both are fruits of unconsciousness and wrong consciousness and, if true or whole consciousness is there replacing Ignorance, they have no longer any basis for their existence. There can therefore be no abso-lute of falsehood, no absolute of evil; these things are a by-product of the world-movement: the sombre flowers of falsehood and suf-fering and evil have their root in the black soil of the Inconscient. On the other hand, there is no such intrinsic obstacle to the absolute-ness of Truth and Good: the relativity of truth and error, good and evil is a fact of our experience, but it is similarly a by-product, it is not a permanent factor native to existence; for it is true only of the valuations made by the human consciousness, true only of our par-tial knowledge and partial ignorance. Truth is relative to us because our knowledge is surrounded by ignorance. Our exact vision stops short at outside appearanc-es which are not the complete truth of things, and, if we go deep-er, the illuminations we arrive at are guesses or inferences or in-timations, not a sight of indubitable realities: our conclusions are partial, speculative or constructed, our statement of them, which is the expression of our indirect contact with the reality, has the nature of representations or figures, word-images of thought-perceptions that are themselves images, not embodiments of Truth itself, not directly real and authentic. These figures or representations are imperfect and opaque and carry with them their shadow of nescience or error; for they seem to deny or shut XIV. The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood, Error, Wrong and Evil 599 out other truths and even the truth they express does not get its full value: it is an end or edge of it that projects into form and the rest is left in the shadow unseen or disfigured or uncertainly visible. It might almost be said that no mental statement of things can be altogether true; it is not Truth bodied, pure and nude, but a draped figure,– of-ten it is only the drapery that is visible. But this character does not apply to truth perceived by a direct action of consciousness or to the truth of knowledge by identity; our seeing there may be limited, but so far as it extends, it is authentic, and authenticity is a first step towards absoluteness: error may attach itself to a direct or identi-cal vision of things by a mental accretion, by a mistaken or illegit-imate extension or by the mind's misinterpretation, but it does not enter into the substance. This authentic or identical vision or ex-perience of things is the true nature of knowledge and it is self-existent within the being, although rendered in our minds by a sec-ondary formation that is unauthentic and derivative. Ignorance in its origin has not this self-existence or this authenticity; it exists by a limitation or absence or abeyance of knowledge, error by a de-viation from truth, falsehood by a distortion of truth or its contra-diction and denial. But it cannot be similarly said of knowledge that in its very nature it exists only by a limitation or absence or abey-ance of ignorance: it may indeed emerge in the human mind partly by a process of such limitation or abeyance, by the receding of dark-ness from a partial light, or it may have the aspect of ignorance turn-ing into knowledge; but in fact, it rises by an independent birth from our depths where it has a native existence. Again, of good and evil it can be said that one exists by true consciousness, the other survives only by wrong consciousness: if there is an unmixed true consciousness, good alone can exist; it is no longer mixed with evil or formed in its presence. Human values of good and evil, as of truth and error, are indeed uncer-tain and relative: what is held as truth in one place or time is held in another place or time to be error; what is regarded as good is elsewhere or in other times regarded as evil. We find too that what we call evil results in good, what we call good results in evil. But this untoward outcome of good producing evil is due to the confusion and mixture of knowledge and ignorance, to the pen-etration of true consciousness by wrong consciousness, so that there is an ignorant or mistaken application of our good, or it is due to the intervention of afflicting forces. In the opposite case of evil produc-ing good, the happier and contradictory result is due to the interven-tion of some true consciousness and force acting behind and in spite of wrong consciousness and wrong will or it is due to the interven-tion of redressing forces. This relativity, this mixture is a circum-stance of human mentality and the workings of the Cosmic Force in human life; it is not the fundamental truth of good and evil. It might be objected that physical evil, such as pain and most bodily suffering, is independent of knowledge and ignorance, of right and wrong consciousness, inherent in physical Nature: but, fundamen-tally, all pain and suffering are the result of an insufficient con-sciousness-force in the surface being which makes it unable to deal rightly with self and Nature or unable to assimilate and to harmo-nise itself with the contacts of the universal Energy; they would not exist if in us there were an integral presence of the luminous Con-sciousness and the divine Force of an integral Being. Therefore the relation of truth to falsehood, of good to evil is not a mutual de-pendence, but is in the nature of a contradiction as of light and shadow; a shadow depends on light for its existence, but light does not depend for its existence on the shadow. The relation between the Absolute and these contraries of some of its fundamental as-pects is not that they are opposite fundamental aspects of the Ab-solute; falsehood and evil have no fundamentality, no power of infinity or eternal being, no self-existence even by latency in the Self-Existent, no authenticity of an original inherence. It is no doubt a fact that once truth or good manifests, the conception of falsehood and evil becomes a possibility; for whenever there is an affirmation, its negation becomes conceiv-able. As the manifestation of existence, consciousness and de-light made the manifestation of non-existence, inconscience, insensibility conceivable and, because conceivable, therefore in a way inevitable, for all possibilities push towards actuality until they reach it, so is it with these contraries of the aspects XIV. The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood, Error, Wrong and Evil 601 of the Divine Existence. It may be said on this ground that these op-posites, since they must be immediately perceivable by the manifest-ing Consciousness on the very threshold of manifestation, can take rank as implied absolutes and are inseparable from all cosmic exist-ence. But it must first be noted that it is only in cosmic manifesta-tion that they become possible; they cannot pre-exist in the timeless being, for they are incompatible with the unity and bliss that are its substance. In cosmos also they cannot come into being except by a limitation of truth and good into partial and relative forms and by a breaking up of the unity of existence and consciousness into separ-ative consciousness and separative being. For where there is oneness and complete mutuality of consciousness-force even in multiplicity and diversity, there truth of self-knowledge and mutual knowledge is automatic and error of self-ignorance and mutual ignorance is im-possible. So too where truth exists as a whole on a basis of self-aware oneness, falsehood cannot enter and evil is shut out by the exclusion of wrong consciousness and wrong will and their dynamisation of falsehood and error. As soon as separateness enters, these things also can enter; but even this simultaneity is not inevitable. If there is suf-ficient mutuality, even in the absence of an active sense of oneness, and if the separate beings do not transgress or deviate from their norms of limited knowledge, harmony and truth can still be sover-eign and evil will have no gate of entry. There is, therefore, no au-thentic inevitable cosmicity of falsehood and evil even as there is no absoluteness; they are circumstances or results that arise only at a certain stage when separativeness culminates in opposition and ignorance in a primitive unconsciousness of knowledge and a re-sultant wrong consciousness and wrong knowledge with its con-tent of wrong will, wrong feeling, wrong action and wrong reac-tion. The question is at what juncture of cosmic manifestation the opposites enter in; for it may be either at some stage of the increas-ing involution of consciousness in separative mind and life or only after the plunge into inconscience. This resolves itself into the question whether falsehood, error, wrong and evil exist original-ly in the mental and vital planes and are native to mind and life or are proper only to the material manifestation because inflicted on mind and life there by the obscurity arising from the Inconscience. It may be questioned too whether, if they do exist in supraphysical mind and life, they were original and inevitable there; for they may rather have entered in as a consequence or a supraphysical extension from the material manifestation. Or, if that is untenable, it may be that they arose as an enabling supraphysical affirmation in the uni-versal Mind and Life, a precedent necessity for their appearance in that manifestation to which they more naturally belong as an inevi-table outcome of the creative Inconscience. __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: New Members 2 Visit Your Group Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . __,_._,___

[GOUTAM CHATTERJEE]

To Mr Arya Vajra from Goutam Chatterjee-

British Historian Prof. Arnold Toynbee best analyses your monotheistic worldview. He has very logically put the whole thing in perspective and warned the world, with historical evidence, about the danger that this worldview can cause and advised it to revert to the pantheistic view if it wanted to survive.

He was once asked whether he believed in God. He paused and then said: “Yes, in the sense in which Hindus believe in God.” This is nothing to be wondered at because the Hindu concept of God is at once more natural, more human, more scientific.

In his dialogues with Ikeda, leader of Soka Gakkai – a Japanese nationalist organization – Toynbee put the whole thing very succinctly: “The Judaic religions have concentrated the element of divinity in the universe into a unique, omnipotent, creator god outside the universe, and this restriction of divinity has deprived nature – including human nature – of its sanctity. By contrast, in India and Eastern Asia, before the impact of the modern West, the whole universe and everything in it, including non-human nature and man himself, was divine and, therefore, possessed, in human eyes, a sanctity and a dignity that have restrained man’s impulse to indulge his greed by doing violence to non-human nature.”

“The Indian and East Asian attitude is pantheism in contrast to Judaic monotheism. In the pantheistic view, divinity is immanent in the universe and is transfused throughout the universe. In the monotheistic view, divinity is withdrawn from the universe and is made external  to it; that is to say, divinity is made transcendent”, he said.

Toynbee has also written: “At the western end of the Old World and in the Americas, the original local cultures – the Middle American, Peruvian, Sumerian, Graeco-Roman, and Egyptian, and also the Canaanite culture that was the Israelites’ culture before they became monotheists – were of the same species as the cultures of India and Eastern Asia before the modern Western impact. In all pre-Judaic cultures, everywhere, religion has been pantheistic, not monotheistic. The present adherents of the Judaic monotheistic religions and of the post-Christian substitutes for the Judaic religion of Christianity are, all of them, ex-pantheists. This historical fact suggests that there might be some hope of their reverting to the pantheistic attitude, now that they have become aware of the badness of the consequences of the monotheistic lack of respect for nature.”

That is why Toynbee once wrote: “This twentieth century had a western beginning, but if the world is to survive, it must have an Indian ending.”

- Goutam Chatterjee

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

More nonsense from a pea brained Hindu called Bhanot. Our Arya intelligensia really doesn't care what you worship. For all we care you can go on worshiping trees, serpents, grass, crap or whatever it is that catches your fancy. All our Arya intelligensia does is propound the vedic view of God and being Vedics we have have the divine mandate to preach the truth. We are not shy nor do we feel the need to shut up and listen to babble of stone worshipers to defend our religion.
Vedas declare a unity of Eshwar, however that does not put us Vedics into the fold of monotheism. Monotheism specifically refers to the idea of an entity fixed in time and space. In most cases it refers to a male God. On the contrary we Vedics don't believe that God belongs to any gender or is limited in time and space. If only Hindoos like you would have actually read anything beyond your stupid books, you probably would have know what you are talking about. Your obvious stupidity springs from the facts that you Hindoo fascists can't really grasp or understand theology as propounded by the Vedas and as an inspiration from the Vedas by the Arya Samaj. Quite understandably so, afterall how can someone who worships stones and animals be expected to understand the depth and majesty of the sole sovereign on this world.
So go on with your dumbo jumbo theories, we really don't care. But if you want to come up with a response, atleast make sure that you know what you are talking about. Just making fancy websites does not make one intelligent.
The premise your idiotic argument is as follows, monotheistic creeds are the reason behind bloodshed and hence monotheism is bad. What an amazing piece of trash logic, something that only the mind of a stone worshiper can concoct. There are plenty of examples that lie in history which prove that your premise about polytheistic or Atheistic creeds for that mater have cursed humanity with great terror.
If you go on an attacking spree without even identifying what your enemy (us, the Vedics) believ in, you will fall flat on your face every time. Its just that you wont realize what you make yourself look like an ass.
As far as Zakir Nayeek is concerned, you can call him whatever you like. That does not change the fact that he is potent in his attacks and is a lethal adversary. The fact that none of the Hindoo organizations have ever challenged his claims, shows you incapability in doing so.
So instead of shouting your lungs out loud, go and preach your nonsense where you will find some takers. There are none here.

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> wrote:

When we the stupid Hindus say that we worship God through stone your Arya intelligentsia somehow makes the presumption that we think God is that stone. Please read what Gouatam ji and indeed our Vedas say first before sitting on your high and mighty judgement seat of calling us stupid and whatever else. This is what I mean that you are full of prejudice against Hindus, your diatribe below is the proof, then to bring in Zakir Naik a certified preacher of religious hatred to sort of defend your charges against the stupid Hindus shows why it is pointless to get into a debate with your rather illogical and somewhat dogmatic ways of monotheism - as for your explanations of Christianity and Islam, these are both Monotheist religions whatever may be the differences on the styling of their God. Your sect claims the same monotheism ideology and as I said earlier I blame monotheism for religious bloodshed and judging from your email below if you had the opportunity of becoming a powerful majority I dare say you will follow suit to annihilate the stupid Hindus too.

anil bhanot

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a load of nonsensical talk. Everything is God and we are God and yet we are writing emails to each other, or shall I say to ourselves. We are defending our positions from our own selves. We are the same God and yet we have different opinions.
In this case, we should stop offering prayers? I mean does it make sense to pray to yourself? Ah! yes I forgot that it is all maya and nothing in this world is real. It is all an illusion :)
Since we are living in this illusionist world what is the point of writing these emails of even having these feelings that we do? Oh! gosh, I forgot these feelings are an illusion too. So why waste so much of web space bashing the Arya Samaj and developing cold feet with regards to the Abhrahamic religion.


Sometimes I wonder what is infinite, the universe or the idiocacy and stupidity of Hindoos. It is hillarious to read Hindoos, who have no clue as to what Arya Samajis believe in come and call us off as Muslims. Goodness, the Muslims believe in a fixed entity called Allah and Christians believe in three Gods (which is not even theism), and while Arya Samajis believe in a God that is dictonious and ever existent.
I fail to see, where the Hindoos see Islam in our Vedic religion and even if you Hindoos think that we are some sub sect of Islam, well there is hardly anything left to say to people like you. It is the same Arya Samaj that gave a downtrodden and cowardly people like Hindoos a chace to accept the Vedic faith and get the courage to fight the British Colonists. Lala Lalpat Rai, Rajguru being two dominating examples of how Arya Samaj created men of stature.

Even today, these Hindoos who shout so loudly on our forums, don't have any real courage to challange people like Zakeer Nayak. It is the leaders of Hindoos like Sri Sri to the power of infinity Ravishankar, who had invited Zakeer Nayak for a so called interfaith dialogue where he had to eat the humble pie. The same Sri Sri who boasts of the knowledge of Vedas and of studied the Bhagwad Gita at a very young age suddenly felt tongue tied when the time for  the real challenge came. It seem he simply couldn't remember anything at the time when he required his knowledge the most.

On the contrary Arya Samajis have on the peril of their lives gone and challenged Muslims in their bastions in states like Uttar Pradesh in India.
Now we Arya Samajis need to move out of India and start preaching the true Vedic teachings around the world and expose these Pakhandi Dhongi Hindoos who only use the Vedas as some kind of accessory.

--

Anil Bhanot OBE                

www.bhanot.co.uk : www.ritatrust.org

 

--
_________________________________________________________________________________
Do Pauranics really believe that their Kali Mata exists, or is it something that is used to scare the hell out of these worthless people?
__________________________________________________________________________________

[Anil Bhanot]

Goutam ji

This Arya Vajra you ahve seen how he resembles the Mahmud Gazni and such like monotheists when he condemns our world view which is the only one that will remain as more and more countires adopt the fundemental human rights charter of UN at a local level.

anil bhanot

[GOUTAM CHATTERJEE]

To Sri Bhavesh Merja from Goutam Chatterjee:

WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

[‘Traitvaad’ (Trinity) means: eternally existing three fundamental entities: God, Soul and Matter. God is the ‘efficient cause’ only. However, the thought pattern revealed in the Rgveda and developed in the Upanisads holds that God is the ‘efficient cause’, ‘instrumental cause’ and the ‘material cause’ of the universe. The latter view is treated as more authentic and more universally accepted than others in the following lines of the Four Vedic Mahaavaakyas, i.e.:

(i)                The first Mahavakya is: “Prajnaanam Brahma. Consciousness is Brahman” (Etareya-5-3).  This is Lakshana Vaakya. The teacher gives the definition to the student that pure consciousness is Brahman (It refers to the One Infinite and Eternal Brahman).

(ii)              Then the teacher says: “Tat Tvam Asi. Thou art That. You are the all-pervading pure consciousness” (Chhaandogya-6-8-7). This is known as Upadesa Vakya.

(iii)            Then the student contemplates on what the teacher expounded, in the form of the idea, “Aham Brahmaasmi. I am Brahman” (Vrihad-1-4-10). This is Anusandhaana Vakya.

(iv)            Finally, the student realizes that this Self which is within him is Brahman: “Ayam Aatmaa Brahma. This Atma is Brahman” (Maandukya-2). This is Anubhava Vaakya. 

Chalaa-chalii kaa khel in the state of simple manhood in the world of relativity is one thing and Cosmic Manhood/Self-Realization/Realization of the Absolute/Unified Field is another. We respect both the states of the Supreme. In the field of the Supreme Being we are independent, but in the field of the universe we are interdependent. What is independence in the field of the Supreme Being is the interdependence in the physical field. And the end of our physical life should be in understanding this interdependence. We have to do everything to better the lives of everyone. We are in the world to serve.

Now a brief explanation of the Relativity Field (which is apparent truth) and the Unified Field (which is absolute truth):-

(a)  One knows there is a view that there is the eternal God, and there is eternal nature and there are also an infinite number of eternal souls. This is the first stage in religion. It is called dualism (Dwaitavaad), the stage when man sees himself and God eternally separate, when God is a separate entity by Himself and man is a separate entity by himself and nature is a separate entity by itself. This is dualism, which holds that the subject and the object are opposed to each other in everything. When man looks at nature, he is the subject and nature the object. He sees the dualism between subject and object. When he looks at God, he sees God as object and himself as the subject. They are entirely separate. This is the dualism between man and God. This is generally the first view of religion. The Arya Samaj celebrates it as Traitavaad=Trinity.

(b) Then comes another view. Man begins to find out that if God is the cause of the universe and the universe the effect, God Himself must have become the universe and the souls, and he is but a particle of which God is the whole. We are but little beings, like sparks of a mass of fire, and the whole universe is a manifestation of God Himself. This is the next step. In Sanskrit, it is called Vishishtâdvaita. Just as we have this body and this body covers the soul, and the soul is in and through this body, so this whole universe of infinite souls and nature forms, as it were, the body of God. When the period of involution comes, the universe becomes finer and finer, yet remains the body of God. When the gross manifestation comes, then also the universe remains the body of God. Just as the human soul is the soul of the human body and mind so God is the Soul of our souls. We all have heard this expression in every religion, "Soul of our souls". That is what is meant by it. He, as it were, resides in them, guides them, is the ruler of them all. In the first view, that of dualism, each one of us is an individual, eternally separate from God and nature. In the second view, we are individuals, but not separate from God. We are like little particles floating in one mass, and that mass is God. We are individuals but one in God. We are all in Him. We are all parts of Him, and therefore we are One. And yet between man and man, man and God there is a strict individuality, separate and yet not separate.

(c)  Then comes a still finer question. The question is: Can infinity have parts? What is meant by parts of infinity? If one reasons it out, one will find that it is impossible. Infinity cannot be divided, it always remains infinite. If it could be divided, each part would be infinite. And there cannot be two infinites. Suppose there were, one would limit the other, and both would be finite. Infinity can only be one, undivided. Thus the conclusion will be reached that the infinite is one and not many, and that one Infinite Soul is reflecting itself through thousands and thousands of mirrors, appearing as so many different souls. It is the same Infinite Soul, which is the background of the universe, that we call God. The same Infinite Soul also is the background of the human mind which we call the human soul.

(i)                According to this view, the atman is not separate from Brahman. A confusion only occurs when an egoic/dualistic mindset conceives oneself (the ego) to be Brahman (god) or as separate from god. The point is that it is a confusion to impute that an individual/separate self truly exists apart from the whole at any time or can be equal to the whole, albeit this confusion is not uncommon.

(ii)              This is a large (but common) error, since Brahman is non-dual and universal (non-egoic). One way to word this, is that one's true nature is the non-dual universal and transpersonal timeless Self. In short, the atman, as a separate/independent self is an illusory error – a misconception and fancy (vikalpa).

(iii)            In the universalized state one sees all things in the self and the self in all things – one becomes aware of one’s being everywhere, aware directly of the different planes, their forces, their beings.

 

- Goutam Chatterjee
-------------------

[Anil Bhanot]

Goutam ji

The problem here is not so much the theosophy of the Vedas in my opinion, most Arya Samajis I am sure will agree with you, the problem is the 'Monotheist' sect apparantly of the Agnivesh, fake swamis type, Aryasamaj which at the moment in my opinion is holding themselves to be superior to the Hindu masses who according to these superior Monotheists indulge in superstition of idol worship. There is little point in arguing with them because their base of argument is rooted in human prejudice. I see it here in the UK among some religionists, even some religious correspondents of the broadsheet papers, and they will not move from their position, rather they will seek to suppress debate, intelligent debate. Of course when I tell them that actually their monotheism is superstition and give reasons behind it they simply move away and shut the debate altogether. However these are a small minority and the vast majority do debate intelligently, including many Anglican Bishops and so on, some of whom however simply resign by saying that they probably can't change this monotheistic superstition - which has been the cause of religious strife and bloodshed in the world - in their life time and I understand that due to their position is the Church, but this little sect of this fake Agnivesh will not change as their base is prejudice of holding themselves to be superior to you and me who are according to them superstitious idol worshippers. Their position is political as is much of your Indian media's and your Indian dynasty politics - which are the root cause of corruption in India -  and so on - there is no room for philosophical reason there.

Anil Bhanot

London

PS. I have taken the liberty to bcc some others who might find your analysis below helpful in understanding the Hindu who worships God through stone, tree, river, mountain and indeed the entire Mother Earth, and this unified field of the ancient Vedas has been long now a study of Quantum Physics.
--

Anil Bhanot OBE                

www.ritatrust.org

 

[Anil Bhanot]

Your attacks on me and the Hindus clearly are a sign of your self styled name Arya the noble. But trying to even find a theological point in your email is difficult for my pea brain. There is no point debating that monotheism leads to human bloodshed with you and by the way it was your sect that claimed - through B Merja and Dr Chaubey - that you are monotheists, now you seem to be disclaiming that under the umbrella Vedic - hence I cannot debate with you, just like our leraned Swamis cannot with your hero Zakir Naik.

anil bhanot

[Arjun]

agivesh is your leader so instead of wasting time challenging zakir naik why dont u challenge him for leadership as u fit the mentality for it and by the way i saw some mice eat part of the vedas the other day at a temple.. are u planning to dump them because remember Swami Dayanand at 14 saw some mice eat prashad in front of a Hindu murthi so he came to the conclusion them if a murthi cant stop mice eating prashad then the murthi is was muslims and Christians believe as fake “A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….” --- On Fri, 3/6/11, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote: From: Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND? To: "Arjun" <arjun...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "GOUTAM CHATTERJEE" <gchatt...@gmail.com>, "Anil Bhanot" <bhano...@gmail.com>, shyam_n...@yahoo.com, bcm...@gmail.com, satish...@yahoo.com, psab...@hotmail.com, hita...@gmail.com, kata...@aol.com, sadhak_...@yahoo.com, jitender...@gmail.com, kri...@hindupedia.com, shankara...@yahoo.com, london...@yahoo.co.uk, tinasa...@yahoo.com, irmamuns...@gmail.com, sande...@hotmail.com, ani...@yahoo.co.uk, govind...@hotmail.com, rishi...@hotmail.com, ranbir...@talktalk.net, culturalbri...@yahoo.com, tcgm...@hotmail.com, vyshv...@gmail.com, live_by...@yahoo.co.uk, drmna...@yahoo.co.uk, rsin...@yahoo.com, brah...@yahoo.com, aryasam...@yahoogroups.com, aryayou...@yahoogroups.com, bhagav...@yahoo.ca, akansh...@yahoo.com, arya...@hotmail.com, mish...@aol.com, msb...@yahoo.com, naveen...@yahoo.co.in, arun_...@yahoo.com, jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in, puneet...@gmail.com, ashwini...@yahoo.ca, eka...@btinternet.com, jayasw...@gmail.com, as_...@rediffmail.com, baksh...@yahoo.com, skan...@gmail.com, op.t...@gmail.com, bharat...@gmail.com, ahven...@gmail.com, gir...@aryasamaj.com, arr...@ameritech.net, desi...@googlegroups.com, vijaya...@yahoo.com, ashoks...@rediffmail.com, satyar...@gmail.com, vsg...@yahoo.com, kcg...@yahoo.com, su_...@ymail.com, ajaya...@gmail.com Date: Friday, 3 June, 2011, 12:21 Agnivesh is my leader? Did your kali mata tell you that in a dream. ............. You should be more worried about Sri Sri, he looks like he could use a butt plug...

[Arjun]

mr arya, first of all maya does not mean illusiion but means to measure so this world is real and not an illusion like the nonsense the Arya Samaj tries to promote as vedic religion..And u also need to snap out of the other illusions that somehow arya samaj saved hinduism when eventually they couldnt even save themselves from being targeted and taken out and now are left with swami agnivesh as their international leader..Making big claims so to be relevant like challenging zakir naik is like myself challangeing mike tyson to fight and then claiming he didnt fight me because he's scared.Zakir Naik dont give a damn about the Arya Samaj.Least Sri Sri is expanding vedic knowledge not only in india but around the world which the Arya Samaj can hardly do in india let alone anywhere else.

“A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….” --- On Fri, 3/6/11, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

[Arjun]

Well they are not converting on masse to Christianity because if they were u would be in big trouble then u are already are with swami agnivesh as your leader lol Is that why Hindoos are converting en masse to Christianity in India? Funny huh! On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Arjun <arjun...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: its very funny when u think about and also proves that karma is true that the arya samaj with all its nonsense end up with the most moronic person as their international leader Swami Agnivesh lol

“A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….”

--- On Fri, 3/6/11, Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

To: "GOUTAM CHATTERJEE" <gchatt...@gmail.com> Cc: shyam_n...@yahoo.com, bcm...@gmail.com, satish...@yahoo.com, arjun...@yahoo.co.uk, psab...@hotmail.com, hita...@gmail.com, kata...@aol.com, sadhak_...@yahoo.com, jitender...@gmail.com, kri...@hindupedia.com, shankara...@yahoo.com, london...@yahoo.co.uk, tinasa...@yahoo.com, irmamuns...@gmail.com, sande...@hotmail.com, ani...@yahoo.co.uk, govind...@hotmail.com, rishi...@hotmail.com, ranbir...@talktalk.net, culturalbri...@yahoo.com, tcgm...@hotmail.com, vyshv...@gmail.com, live_by...@yahoo.co.uk, drmna...@yahoo.co.uk, rsin...@yahoo.com, brah...@yahoo.com, aryasam...@yahoogroups.com, aryayou...@yahoogroups.com, bhagav...@yahoo.ca, akansh...@yahoo.com, arya...@hotmail.com, mish...@aol.com, msb...@yahoo.com, naveen...@yahoo.co.in, arun_...@yahoo.com, jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in, puneet...@gmail.com, ashwini...@yahoo.ca, eka...@btinternet.com, jayasw...@gmail.com, as_...@rediffmail.com, baksh...@yahoo.com, skan...@gmail.com, op.t...@gmail.com, bharat...@gmail.com, ahven...@gmail.com, gir...@aryasamaj.com, arr...@ameritech.net, desi...@googlegroups.com, vijaya...@yahoo.com, ashoks...@rediffmail.com, satyar...@gmail.com, vsg...@yahoo.com, arya.v...@gmail.com, kcg...@yahoo.com, su_...@ymail.com, ajaya...@gmail.com Date: Friday, 3 June, 2011, 10:14

Goutam ji The problem here is not so much the theosophy of the Vedas in my opinion, most Arya Samajis I am sure will agree with you, the problem is the 'Monotheist' sect apparantly of the Agnivesh, fake swamis type, Aryasamaj which at the moment in my opinion is holding themselves to be superior to the Hindu masses who according to these superior Monotheists indulge in superstition of idol worship. There is little point in arguing with them because their base of argument is rooted in human prejudice. I see it here in the UK among some religionists, even some religious correspondents of the broadsheet papers, and they will not move from their position, rather they will seek to suppress debate, intelligent debate. Of course when I tell them that actually their monotheism is superstition and give reasons behind it they simply move away and shut the debate altogether. However these are a small minority and the vast majority do debate intelligently, including many Anglican Bishops and so on, some of whom however simply resign by saying that they probably can't change this monotheistic superstition - which has been the cause of religious strife and bloodshed in the world - in their life time and I understand that due to their position is the Church, but this little sect of this fake Agnivesh will not change as their base is prejudice of holding themselves to be superior to you and me who are according to them superstitious idol worshippers. Their position is political as is much of your Indian media's and your Indian dynasty politics - which are the root cause of corruption in India -  and so on - there is no room for philosophical reason there. Anil Bhanot London PS. I have taken the liberty to bcc some others who might find your analysis below helpful in understanding the Hindu who worships God through stone, tree, river, mountain and indeed the entire Mother Earth, and this unified field of the ancient Vedas has been long now a study of Quantum Physics. -- Anil Bhanot OBE                 www.ritatrust.org

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 9:31 AM, GOUTAM CHATTERJEE <gchatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

To Sri Bhavesh Merja from Goutam Chatterjee:

WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND? [‘Traitvaad’ (Trinity) means: eternally existing three fundamental entities: God, Soul and Matter. God is the ‘efficient cause’ only. However, the thought pattern revealed in the Rgveda and developed in the Upanisads holds that God is the ‘efficient cause’, ‘instrumental cause’ and the ‘material cause’ of the universe. The latter view is treated as more authentic and more universally accepted than others in the following lines of the Four Vedic Mahaavaakyas, i.e.:

- Goutam Chatterjee -------------------

WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND? [‘Traitvaad’ (Trinity) means: eternally existing three fundamental entities: God, Soul and Matter. God is the ‘efficient cause’ only. However, the thought pattern revealed in the Rgveda and developed in the Upanisads holds that God is the ‘efficient cause’, ‘instrumental cause’ and the ‘material cause’ of the universe. The latter view is treated as more authentic and more universally accepted than others.]

[Anil Bhanot]

When we the stupid Hindus say that we worship God through stone your Arya intelligentsia somehow makes the presumption that we think God is that stone. Please read what Gouatam ji and indeed our Vedas say first before sitting on your high and mighty judgement seat of calling us stupid and whatever else. This is what I mean that you are full of prejudice against Hindus, your diatribe below is the proof, then to bring in Zakir Naik a certified preacher of religious hatred to sort of defend your charges against the stupid Hindus shows why it is pointless to get into a debate with your rather illogical and somewhat dogmatic ways of monotheism - as for your explanations of Christianity and Islam, these are both Monotheist religions whatever may be the differences on the styling of their God. Your sect claims the same monotheism ideology and as I said earlier I blame monotheism for religious bloodshed and judging from your email below if you had the opportunity of becoming a powerful majority I dare say you will follow suit to annihilate the stupid Hindus too.

anil bhanot

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a load of nonsensical talk. Everything is God and we are God and yet we are writing emails to each other, or shall I say to ourselves. We are defending our positions from our own selves. We are the same God and yet we have different opinions.
In this case, we should stop offering prayers? I mean does it make sense to pray to yourself? Ah! yes I forgot that it is all maya and nothing in this world is real. It is all an illusion :)
Since we are living in this illusionist world what is the point of writing these emails of even having these feelings that we do? Oh! gosh, I forgot these feelings are an illusion too. So why waste so much of web space bashing the Arya Samaj and developing cold feet with regards to the Abhrahamic religion.


Sometimes I wonder what is infinite, the universe or the idiocacy and stupidity of Hindoos. It is hillarious to read Hindoos, who have no clue as to what Arya Samajis believe in come and call us off as Muslims. Goodness, the Muslims believe in a fixed entity called Allah and Christians believe in three Gods (which is not even theism), and while Arya Samajis believe in a God that is dictonious and ever existent.
I fail to see, where the Hindoos see Islam in our Vedic religion and even if you Hindoos think that we are some sub sect of Islam, well there is hardly anything left to say to people like you. It is the same Arya Samaj that gave a downtrodden and cowardly people like Hindoos a chace to accept the Vedic faith and get the courage to fight the British Colonists. Lala Lalpat Rai, Rajguru being two dominating examples of how Arya Samaj created men of stature.

Even today, these Hindoos who shout so loudly on our forums, don't have any real courage to challange people like Zakeer Nayak. It is the leaders of Hindoos like Sri Sri to the power of infinity Ravishankar, who had invited Zakeer Nayak for a so called interfaith dialogue where he had to eat the humble pie. The same Sri Sri who boasts of the knowledge of Vedas and of studied the Bhagwad Gita at a very young age suddenly felt tongue tied when the time for  the real challenge came. It seem he simply couldn't remember anything at the time when he required his knowledge the most.

On the contrary Arya Samajis have on the peril of their lives gone and challenged Muslims in their bastions in states like Uttar Pradesh in India.
Now we Arya Samajis need to move out of India and start preaching the true Vedic teachings around the world and expose these Pakhandi Dhongi Hindoos who only use the Vedas as some kind of accessory.

[Dr. Madhukar Ambekar]

Hindoos are converting en masse to Christianity in India

How many Hindu's who are learned have converted to Christianity? Missionaries can only hunt/aim tribal, underprivileged and poor people who are at the mercy for their livelihood. In contrast Christians of intellectual stalk are coming to terms with the preaching of Vaidic/Sanatan/ Hindu Dharma in the west.

On 3 Jun 2011, at 12:13, Arya Vajra wrote:

Is that why Hindoos are converting en masse to Christianity in India? Funny huh!

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Arjun <arjun...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

its very funny when u think about and also proves that karma is true that the arya samaj with all its nonsense end up with the most moronic person as their international leader Swami Agnivesh lol “A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….” --- On Fri, 3/6/11, Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND? To: "GOUTAM CHATTERJEE" <gchatt...@gmail.com> Cc: shyam_n...@yahoo.com, bcm...@gmail.com, satish...@yahoo.com, arjun...@yahoo.co.uk, psab...@hotmail.com, hita...@gmail.com, kata...@aol.com, sadhak_...@yahoo.com, jitender...@gmail.com, kri...@hindupedia.com, shankara...@yahoo.com, london...@yahoo.co.uk, tinasa...@yahoo.com, irmamuns...@gmail.com, sande...@hotmail.com, ani...@yahoo.co.uk, govind...@hotmail.com, rishi...@hotmail.com, ranbir...@talktalk.net, culturalbri...@yahoo.com, tcgm...@hotmail.com, vyshv...@gmail.com, live_by...@yahoo.co.uk, drmna...@yahoo.co.uk, rsin...@yahoo.com, brah...@yahoo.com, aryasam...@yahoogroups.com, aryayou...@yahoogroups.com, bhagav...@yahoo.ca, akansh...@yahoo.com, arya...@hotmail.com, mish...@aol.com, msb...@yahoo.com, naveen...@yahoo.co.in, arun_...@yahoo.com, jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in, puneet...@gmail.com, ashwini...@yahoo.ca, eka...@btinternet.com, jayasw...@gmail.com, as_...@rediffmail.com, baksh...@yahoo.com, skan...@gmail.com, op.t...@gmail.com, bharat...@gmail.com, ahven...@gmail.com, gir...@aryasamaj.com, arr...@ameritech.net, desi...@googlegroups.com, vijaya...@yahoo.com, ashoks...@rediffmail.com, satyar...@gmail.com, vsg...@yahoo.com, arya.v...@gmail.com, kcg...@yahoo.com, su_...@ymail.com, ajaya...@gmail.com Date: Friday, 3 June, 2011, 10:14

[Arjun]

mr arya what have u personally done instead of living off the arya samajs rep because least mr Bhanot can produce his CV for the Hindu cause but i know for fact you cant apart from passing gass on the net

“A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….”

--- On Fri, 3/6/11, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

To: "Anil Bhanot" <bhano...@gmail.com> Cc: "GOUTAM CHATTERJEE" <gchatt...@gmail.com>, shyam_n...@yahoo.com, bcm...@gmail.com, satish...@yahoo.com, arjun...@yahoo.co.uk, psab...@hotmail.com, hita...@gmail.com, kata...@aol.com, sadhak_...@yahoo.com, jitender...@gmail.com, kri...@hindupedia.com, shankara...@yahoo.com, london...@yahoo.co.uk, tinasa...@yahoo.com, irmamuns...@gmail.com, sande...@hotmail.com, ani...@yahoo.co.uk, govind...@hotmail.com, rishi...@hotmail.com, ranbir...@talktalk.net, culturalbri...@yahoo.com, tcgm...@hotmail.com, vyshv...@gmail.com, live_by...@yahoo.co.uk, drmna...@yahoo.co.uk, rsin...@yahoo.com, brah...@yahoo.com, aryasam...@yahoogroups.com, aryayou...@yahoogroups.com, bhagav...@yahoo.ca, akansh...@yahoo.com, arya...@hotmail.com, mish...@aol.com, msb...@yahoo.com, naveen...@yahoo.co.in, arun_...@yahoo.com, jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in, puneet...@gmail.com, ashwini...@yahoo.ca, eka...@btinternet.com, jayasw...@gmail.com, as_...@rediffmail.com, baksh...@yahoo.com, skan...@gmail.com, op.t...@gmail.com, bharat...@gmail.com, ahven...@gmail.com, gir...@aryasamaj.com, arr...@ameritech.net, desi...@googlegroups.com, vijaya...@yahoo.com, ashoks...@rediffmail.com, satyar...@gmail.com, vsg...@yahoo.com, kcg...@yahoo.com, su_...@ymail.com, ajaya...@gmail.com Date: Friday, 3 June, 2011, 12:17 While I really never wanted to get into a discussion with someone like you who can only eat what you hindoos eat and then filthy the Arya Samaj forums with his hot gas. On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote: Giving up so soon Mr. Bhanot, huh! Now that I exposed your lies, you are now trying to find excuses for your cowardice. As far as Zakeer Nayak is concerned, he is a pathetic human being but far less pathetic than you Hindoos he has the guts to make fun of your religion in a country dominated by your people and still you cowards can do nothing but rant about the Arya Samaj.

[bharath curam]

But the sand Zakhir Nayak has no answers for Islam.

1. Why Prophet married a six year old Girl when he
was fifty plus.

2. Why Koran allows only four wives at a time.

There are many but he has his own stupid interpretations.
Bharath

> concoct. There are plenty of examples that lie in history which prove that

> your premise about polytheistic or Atheistic creeds for that mater have
> cursed humanity with great terror.
> If you go on an attacking spree without even identifying what your enemy
> (us, the Vedics) believ in, you will fall flat on your face every time. Its
> just that you wont realize what you make yourself look like an ass.
> As far as Zakir Nayeek is concerned, you can call him whatever you like.
> That does not change the fact that he is potent in his attacks and is a
> lethal adversary. The fact that none of the Hindoo organizations have ever
> challenged his claims, shows you incapability in doing so.
> So instead of shouting your lungs out loud, go and preach your nonsense
> where you will find some takers. There are none here.
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

[Arjun]

its very funny when u think about and also proves that karma is true that the arya samaj with all its nonsense end up with the most moronic person as their international leader Swami Agnivesh lol

“A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….”

--- On Fri, 3/6/11, Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND? To: "GOUTAM CHATTERJEE" <gchatt...@gmail.com>

[Arjun]

"I give the major credit of becoming a monotheist to Arya Samaj, a Hindu organization that believes that Hinduism preaches monotheism and not rituals and idol worshiping. After coming under its influence I stopped worshiping idols, performing any sort of rituals and going to temples." A Hindu’s Journey to Islam By Aasiya Inaya Indian Saumya led a journey from Hinduism to Islam. When the truth is revealed to you and you stand face to face with it, how long can you refuse to accept it? How long would you run away denying it? There comes a point in your life when you have to break free from all the chains that hold you back from answering the True Call. It is a moment where nothing else seems significant and equivalent to the call of the Almighty Allah and His path of freedom, bliss and satisfaction. All the lies with which you have been living with start fading and your beliefs as a disbeliever fall like a pack of cards. And what you witness is an Eureka moment, a moment when you realize the truth, when you realize the beauty of Islam. Then you take no time to accept it. You just have to take a bold step lest fearing the societal pressure and disagreement. For you should always fight for the Truth and stand firm on to it, no matter be it against your own kin. I remember the day when I stood in front of the mirror in my room, looking vaguely, trying to search for something but failing to find an answer. In retrospect, I was never an atheist, I always believed that God existed and being a Hindu it existed for me in thousand forms: from a stone to a tree, from a tree to a river, from a river to a well (funny but true). All were objects of worship for me as I was told by my family and other traditions. I took pride in being a polytheist, considering that all objects made by God are worth worshipping and that there exists a part of God in them, in every single being; so all are worthy of worship. It could be a cow, a tree, a river (as I said also a well), idols and even human beings themselves. I detested Islam for being so rigid and stubborn on this. I found the Muslims static, living in the past, while the world is moving far ahead of them. For me all their beliefs were unreasonable (maybe because I never looked for reason), impractical, cruel and outdated. Probably, it was not my fault, it was that I was made to look at them this way. It was a pre-conceived notion, which I inherited from this society which has often kept a negative image of Islam in majority of its opinion. My first encounter with Islam was in high school where the majority of my classmates were Muslims and during free classes we used to have discussions on Islam (largely because of the anti-Islam propaganda by the Hindu Organizations post 9/11 and the Gujarat riots). During these talks they tried to clear various misconceptions that I carried regarding monotheism, rights of women, their status, and other popular myths which have become clichéd more or less. Yet, it was not convincing for me, I still kept those beliefs and my pride in being polytheist. Though I was not anymore an anti-Muslim, I was moved by the sufferings of the people who were one of us, simply dying because they practiced a different faith. I became more secular in my outlook. I give the major credit of becoming a monotheist to Arya Samaj, a Hindu organization that believes that Hinduism preaches monotheism and not rituals and idol worshiping. After coming under its influence I stopped worshiping idols, performing any sort of rituals and going to temples. These are what I call the steps I was taking to finally reach my destination that is Islam. Though Arya Samaj has its own flaws, I again found myself in the same cob-web; where rituals and fire worshiping became an integral part. Reading Vedas, Manu Smiriti, and other scriptures only confused me. It was all philosophical, nothing material which could help you precisely find an answer for your daily life queries. While in college studying Law, it was the first time when the clarity of Islam dawned over me. It was nothing but a small course of Family Law - Hindu Law and Islamic Law regarding marriages, divorce, succession, etc. While Hindu law was riddled with various technicalities, confusions, differences of opinions and lack of stability, Islamic law on the other hand was clear, precise and certain. My opinion here changed overnight. What I used to find static, appeared stable to me. This made me curious to read more in this regard; I spent hours online talking to friends who used to tell me about Islam. I read various links and participated in forum discussions. My outlook towards Islam started changing which was reflected when I spoke with my friends or discussed things with them. Of course this change was not appreciated by them, they warned me against the so-called ‘brain washers’ whose sole aim is to divert Hindus to Islam. All this used to bother me, I felt scared of their disagreement. I felt as though I were cheating my friends and family by doing what they sternly disagreed of. But, as I said earlier, how long can you run away from the truth? You cannot live with a lie and accepting the truth needs courage. And as the Holy Quran says: *{Believers, uphold justice. Always bear true witness, even if it be against yourself, your parents, or your relatives-and regardless of whether the person against whom you are speaking is rich or poor. God is close to people regardless of their material circumstances. Do not be led by emotion, as this may cause you to swerve from the truth. If you distort your testimony, or refuse to testify, remember that God is aware of all your actions.}* (An-Nisaa’: 4:135) And that day all the fears just drifted away, because if I wouldn’t have converted then I guess I would never had. I would have stayed stuck in the complexities of the life of the material world where false emotions stop us from doing the right thing. Though my friends and family members are yet unaware of it, but certainly I will tell them sooner or later and I hope Insha’Allah that they will respect my decision. Alhamdullilah, I’m a Muslim today, trying to learn more and more about the Holy Quran and the guidelines of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Insha’Allah, I will walk on his path in a better way. With the help of a few friends and an organization, I’ve learned to pray; I’m praying 5 times daily alhamdulillah. I pray to Allah to give me more strength so that I could always stand firm on my decision.

“A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….”

--- On Fri, 3/6/11, GOUTAM CHATTERJEE <gchatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: GOUTAM CHATTERJEE <gchatt...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

[Arjun]

"Our Arya intelligensia really doesn't care what you worship"

hehehe u should seriously take up comedy because u will do good there and u wont need a script because people wont laugh at your jokes but will laugh at u lol

“A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….”

--- On Fri, 3/6/11, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

[Arjun]

Mr Arya whatever produce one 'stone' worshipping warrior like Shivaji who saved Hindu Dharma from destruction than your monotheist cult known as the arya samaj which is on its last legs and seen by most hindus as a joke..Theres many hindus who have challenged him to a debate so dont take the claim for yourself.Get on the net and check yourself.Zakir naik knows you are a bunch of fools spreading 3/4 quarters of what hes trying to promote so why should he mess things up debating with the Arya Samaj which is busy promoting monothiesm and anti idolatry as true vedic dharma when later on he can use the arya samaj to convert hindus to islam Date: Friday, 3 June, 2011, 12:11 mr arya, first of all maya does not mean illusiion but means to measure so this world is real and not an illusion like the nonsense the Arya Samaj tries to promote as vedic religion What means are you talking about? Your sentence in meaningless.... Arya Samaj propounds the truth of the Vedic Dharma, and why does it even bother you stone worshipper, you people used to claim that the Vedas were gobbeled up a demon called Tipura long back. It was only Swami Dayananda Sarwasti what brough back the Vedas out from the chambers of naboodaris.

.And u also need to snap out of the other illusions that somehow arya samaj saved hinduism when eventually they couldnt even save themselves from being targeted and taken out and now are left with swami agnivesh as their international leader.

When did I claim that Arya Samaj saved Hinduism? How is the Arya Samaj supposed to save something it doesn't even stand for? We are not stone worshipping Hindoos but Vedics. We don't believe in your stupid religion called Hinduism. As far as the Arya Samaj movement going through bad times, well it happens with all movements. It doesn't matter. What matters is the truth of the Vedas which is eternal and sacred for all times. If it is not the Arya Samaj that propunds Vedic Dharma then some other organisation with some other name will do it.

Making big claims so to be relevant like challenging zakir naik is like myself challangeing mike tyson to fight and then claiming he didnt fight me because he's scared.Zakir Naik dont give a damn about the Arya Samaj.Least Sri Sri is expanding vedic knowledge not only in india but around the world which the Arya Samaj can hardly do in india let alone anywhere else.

More babble from our own in house entertained Arjun Shakti. Your Sri Sri is only expanding one thing, that is the long list of his believers. Zakir Naik refused to debate with Arya Samajis only for one reason, which is because he knew what would happen as a result of this debate. But tell me which one your Hindoo organization even dared to challenge him. Tell me the name of just one August Hindu organization that dared to do so...

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Arjun <arjun...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

mr arya, first of all maya does not mean illusiion but means to measure so this world is real and not an illusion like the nonsense the Arya Samaj tries to promote as vedic religion..And u also need to snap out of the other illusions that somehow arya samaj saved hinduism when eventually they couldnt even save themselves from being targeted and taken out and now are left with swami agnivesh as their international leader..Making big claims so to be relevant like challenging zakir naik is like myself challangeing mike tyson to fight and then claiming he didnt fight me because he's scared.Zakir Naik dont give a damn about the Arya Samaj.Least Sri Sri is expanding vedic knowledge not only in india but around the world which the Arya Samaj can hardly do in india let alone anywhere else.

“A warrior relaxes and abandons himself; he fears nothing.Only then will the powers that guide human destiny open the road for a warrior and aid him. Only then….” --- On Fri, 3/6/11, Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Arya Vajra <arya.v...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: WHERE DOES THE ‘TRAITAVAAD’ OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND? To: "Anil Bhanot" <bhano...@gmail.com> Cc: "GOUTAM CHATTERJEE" <gchatt...@gmail.com>, shyam_n...@yahoo.com, bcm...@gmail.com, satish...@yahoo.com, arjun...@yahoo.co.uk, psab...@hotmail.com, hita...@gmail.com, kata...@aol.com, sadhak_...@yahoo.com, jitender...@gmail.com, kri...@hindupedia.com, shankara...@yahoo.com, london...@yahoo.co.uk, tinasa...@yahoo.com, irmamuns...@gmail.com, sande...@hotmail.com, ani...@yahoo.co.uk, govind...@hotmail.com, rishi...@hotmail.com, ranbir...@talktalk.net, culturalbri...@yahoo.com, tcgm...@hotmail.com, vyshv...@gmail.com, live_by...@yahoo.co.uk, drmna...@yahoo.co.uk, rsin...@yahoo.com, brah...@yahoo.com, aryasam...@yahoogroups.com, aryayou...@yahoogroups.com, bhagav...@yahoo.ca, akansh...@yahoo.com, arya...@hotmail.com, mish...@aol.com, msb...@yahoo.com, naveen...@yahoo.co.in, arun_...@yahoo.com, jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in, puneet...@gmail.com, ashwini...@yahoo.ca, eka...@btinternet.com, jayasw...@gmail.com, as_...@rediffmail.com, baksh...@yahoo.com, skan...@gmail.com, op.t...@gmail.com, bharat...@gmail.com, ahven...@gmail.com, gir...@aryasamaj.com, arr...@ameritech.net, desi...@googlegroups.com, vijaya...@yahoo.com, ashoks...@rediffmail.com, satyar...@gmail.com, vsg...@yahoo.com, kcg...@yahoo.com, su_...@ymail.com, ajaya...@gmail.com

Date: Friday, 3 June, 2011, 10:55

What a load of nonsensical talk. Everything is God and we are God and yet we are writing emails to each other, or shall I say to ourselves. We are defending our positions from our own selves. We are the same God and yet we have different opinions. In this case, we should stop offering prayers? I mean does it make sense to pray to yourself? Ah! yes I forgot that it is all maya and nothing in this world is real. It is all an illusion :) Since we are living in this illusionist world what is the point of writing these emails of even having these feelings that we do? Oh! gosh, I forgot these feelings are an illusion too. So why waste so much of web space bashing the Arya Samaj and developing cold feet with regards to the Abhrahamic religion. Sometimes I wonder what is infinite, the universe or the idiocacy and stupidity of Hindoos. It is hillarious to read Hindoos, who have no clue as to what Arya Samajis believe in come and call us off as Muslims. Goodness, the Muslims believe in a fixed entity called Allah and Christians believe in three Gods (which is not even theism), and while Arya Samajis believe in a God that is dictonious and ever existent. I fail to see, where the Hindoos see Islam in our Vedic religion and even if you Hindoos think that we are some sub sect of Islam, well there is hardly anything left to say to people like you. It is the same Arya Samaj that gave a downtrodden and cowardly people like Hindoos a chace to accept the Vedic faith and get the courage to fight the British Colonists. Lala Lalpat Rai, Rajguru being two dominating examples of how Arya Samaj created men of stature. Even today, these Hindoos who shout so loudly on our forums, don't have any real courage to challange people like Zakeer Nayak. It is the leaders of Hindoos like Sri Sri to the power of infinity Ravishankar, who had invited Zakeer Nayak for a so called interfaith dialogue where he had to eat the humble pie. The same Sri Sri who boasts of the knowledge of Vedas and of studied the Bhagwad Gita at a very young age suddenly felt tongue tied when the time for  the real challenge came. It seem he simply couldn't remember anything at the time when he required his knowledge the most. On the contrary Arya Samajis have on the peril of their lives gone and challenged Muslims in their bastions in states like Uttar Pradesh in India. Now we Arya Samajis need to move out of India and start preaching the true Vedic teachings around the world and expose these Pakhandi Dhongi Hindoos who only use the Vedas as some kind of accessory.

--

[Arjun]

and most of the westerners who are coming to Hinduism are are not coming via arya samaj either but through the very gurus and swamis the arya samaj hate.Like monotheism the Arya Samaj are going down the toilet where they belong with each other

[Dr. Madhukar Ambekar]

Well done you  understood what I mean. Very few people have that caliber.

On 4 Jun 2011, at 06:09, arya.vajra01 wrote:

Yours that ie.

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Dr. Madhukar Ambekar <drmna...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Wishful thinking

On 3 Jun 2011, at 15:50, Arya Vajra wrote:

The Westerners are not coming to Arya Samaj because of our faults of not reaching out to them and not because there is something great about you fast busters.
They are turning to Hindooism not so much because they find it great rather because they are sick of Christianity and need a break. Hinduism provides that great toilet for these people to take a crap break before they are ready to embrace the true Vedic values.
Your cult is nothing but a cheap restroom where people go to ease themselves for some time :)

[S.H.Mohd. Shiyam]

Bharat ,
You too dont have the answer why Krishna have so many Gopies
when he have Radha While Hinduism dont allow more then one Women plz
Explain .

Accountant
Siku Group of Companies
Blantyre
Tel: + 265 01 871 432
Email: acco...@sikumw.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "bharath curam" <bharat...@gmail.com>
To: "Arya Vajra" <arya.v...@gmail.com>

Cc: "Anil Bhanot" <bhano...@gmail.com>; "GOUTAM CHATTERJEE"
<gchatt...@gmail.com>; <shyam_n...@yahoo.com>; <bcm...@gmail.com>;
<satish...@yahoo.com>; <arjun...@yahoo.co.uk>;
<psab...@hotmail.com>; <hita...@gmail.com>; <kata...@aol.com>;
<sadhak_...@yahoo.com>; <jitender...@gmail.com>;
<kri...@hindupedia.com>; <shankara...@yahoo.com>;
<london...@yahoo.co.uk>; <tinasa...@yahoo.com>;
<irmamuns...@gmail.com>; <sande...@hotmail.com>;
<ani...@yahoo.co.uk>; <govind...@hotmail.com>;
<rishi...@hotmail.com>; <ranbir...@talktalk.net>;
<culturalbri...@yahoo.com>; <tcgm...@hotmail.com>;
<vyshv...@gmail.com>; <live_by...@yahoo.co.uk>;
<drmna...@yahoo.co.uk>; <rsin...@yahoo.com>; <brah...@yahoo.com>;
<aryasam...@yahoogroups.com>; <aryayou...@yahoogroups.com>;
<bhagav...@yahoo.ca>; <akansh...@yahoo.com>; <arya...@hotmail.com>;
<mish...@aol.com>; <msb...@yahoo.com>; <naveen...@yahoo.co.in>;
<arun_...@yahoo.com>; <jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in>;
<puneet...@gmail.com>; <ashwini...@yahoo.ca>;
<eka...@btinternet.com>; <jayasw...@gmail.com>;
<as_...@rediffmail.com>; <baksh...@yahoo.com>; <skan...@gmail.com>;
<op.t...@gmail.com>; <ahven...@gmail.com>; <gir...@aryasamaj.com>;
<arr...@ameritech.net>; <desi...@googlegroups.com>;
<vijaya...@yahoo.com>; <ashoks...@rediffmail.com>;
<satyar...@gmail.com>; <vsg...@yahoo.com>; <kcg...@yahoo.com>;
<su_...@ymail.com>; <ajaya...@gmail.com>
Sent: 03 June, 2011 1:17 PM
Subject: (Desiyatra)-- Re: WHERE DOES THE 'TRAITAVAAD' OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

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can you take this email address off the circulation list please you are flooding the box.


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-----Original Message-----
From: desi...@googlegroups.com on behalf of GOUTAM CHATTERJEE
Sent: Fri 03/06/2011 12:31
To: Arya Vajra
Cc: Anil Bhanot; shyam_n...@yahoo.com; bcm...@gmail.com; satish...@yahoo.com; arjun...@yahoo.co.uk; psab...@hotmail.com; hita...@gmail.com; kata...@aol.com; sadhak_...@yahoo.com; jitender...@gmail.com; kri...@hindupedia.com; shankara...@yahoo.com; H S. Shastry; tinasa...@yahoo.com; irmamuns...@gmail.com; sande...@hotmail.com; ani...@yahoo.co.uk; govind...@hotmail.com; rishi...@hotmail.com; ranbir...@talktalk.net; culturalbri...@yahoo.com; tcgm...@hotmail.com; vyshv...@gmail.com; live_by...@yahoo.co.uk; drmna...@yahoo.co.uk; rsin...@yahoo.com; brah...@yahoo.com; aryasam...@yahoogroups.com; aryayou...@yahoogroups.com; bhagav...@yahoo.ca; akansh...@yahoo.com; arya...@hotmail.com; mish...@aol.com; msb...@yahoo.com; naveen...@yahoo.co.in; arun_...@yahoo.com; jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in; puneet...@gmail.com; ashwini...@yahoo.ca; eka...@btinternet.com; jayasw...@gmail.com; as_...@rediffmail.com; baksh...@yahoo.com; skan...@gmail.com; op.t...@gmail.com; bharat...@gmail.com; ahven...@gmail.com; gir...@aryasamaj.com; arr...@ameritech.net; desi...@googlegroups.com; vijaya...@yahoo.com; ashoks...@rediffmail.com; satyar...@gmail.com; vsg...@yahoo.com; kcg...@yahoo.com; su_...@ymail.com; ajaya...@gmail.com
Subject: (Desiyatra)-- Re: WHERE DOES THE 'TRAITAVAAD' OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

To Mr Arya Vajra from Goutam Chatterjee-
British Historian Prof. Arnold Toynbee best analyses your monotheistic
worldview. He has very logically put the whole thing in perspective and
warned the world, with historical evidence, about the danger that this
worldview can cause and advised it to revert to the pantheistic view if it
wanted to survive.

He was once asked whether he believed in God. He paused and then said: *"Yes,
in the sense in which Hindus believe in God."* This is nothing to be

wondered at because the Hindu concept of God is at once more natural, more
human, more scientific.

In his dialogues with Ikeda, leader of Soka Gakkai - a Japanese nationalist
organization - Toynbee put the whole thing very succinctly: *"The Judaic

religions have concentrated the element of divinity in the universe into a
unique, omnipotent, creator god outside the universe, and this restriction

of divinity has deprived nature - including human nature - of its sanctity.

By contrast, in India and Eastern Asia, before the impact of the modern
West, the whole universe and everything in it, including non-human nature
and man himself, was divine and, therefore, possessed, in human eyes, a
sanctity and a dignity that have restrained man's impulse to indulge his

greed by doing violence to non-human nature."*

*"The Indian and East Asian attitude is pantheism* *in contrast to Judaic
monotheism*. *In the pantheistic view, divinity is immanent in the universe

and is transfused throughout the universe. In the monotheistic view,
divinity is withdrawn from the universe and is made external  to it; that is

to say, divinity is made transcendent",* he said.

Toynbee has also written: *"At the western end of the Old World and in the
Americas, the original local cultures - the Middle American, Peruvian,

Sumerian, Graeco-Roman, and Egyptian, and also the Canaanite culture that

was the Israelites' culture before they became monotheists - were of the

same species as the cultures of India and Eastern Asia before the modern
Western impact. In all pre-Judaic cultures, everywhere, religion has been
pantheistic, not monotheistic. The present adherents of the Judaic

monotheistic religions* *and of the post-Christian substitutes for the

Judaic religion of Christianity are, all of them, ex-pantheists. This
historical fact suggests that there might be some hope of their reverting to
the pantheistic attitude, now that they have become aware of the badness of

the consequences of the monotheistic lack of respect for nature."*
That is why Toynbee once wrote: *"This twentieth century had a western
beginning, but if the world is to survive, it must have an Indian ending."*
*- Goutam Chatterjee*

>>> to pray to yourself? Ah! yes I forgot that it is all *maya* and nothing

> *Do Pauranics really believe that their Kali Mata exists, or is it
> something that is used to scare the hell out of these worthless people?*
>
> __________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>

[Anil Bhanot]

Mohd.
Radha was not Krishna's wife. They had a platonic childhood love. There is nothing sexual about Radha Krishna as a Deity couple. But Krishna did have 8 wives as a king was allowed more than one wife in that society. About 16000 wives it was from a story where he killed a bad king who left 16000 widows and Krishna as a reformer it is said married them so as to set an example to the society that it is ok to marry widows. People of course don't always follow what great divinities set examples for them to do and indian society continued to reject widows right to remarry. But now we are getting to different area.
But as for Muslim 4 wives I suspect it was because the new Islam conducted several campaigns to kill the pagans, fought several wars, thus left more women per men as men were being killed in wars, leaving 4 women to 1 man ratio.
There is nothing DIVINE about these things. These are social constructs of the day.
Anil Bhanot

Sent from my iPad

[Anil Bhanot]

On exploitation we saw here in news an Afghani older person his 60's in Afghanistan marrying an 8 year old and that to me is exploitation.
Maybe the previous questioner was asking you that question from what he sees happening in the world based purely on old Islamic ways.
So you should stick to the point and actually I'd rather you just answer his question to him. I answered your question to him for him in the earlier mail.
Anil

Message sent from iPhone

On 18 Jun 2011, at 12:20, Anil Bhanot <bhano...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No you haven't tried to understand what I said but just went on the defensive.
> The (higher) law is the same for everyone and that is why I said that number of wives depended on what was accepted or necessary at the time - it is a social thing not a divine matter. As for your evil whatever society does as acceptable but actually is harmful - say marrying many wives but exploiting them - to others is evil. It is not a matter of 1 or 4 wives. That would be according to the higher law.
> Krishna telling Arjuna to fight evil was based on that higher law not because the cousins did not believe in something, as you seem to be justifying killing humans if they were infidels. That act of killing is also evil as everyone has free will and you cannot go round killing people if they disagree with your belief system. Krishna did not tell Arjun to kill due to a difference of opinion but because his cousin tried to kill the pandavs many times and in the end as a crown prince said he will not give an inch of land for them to live on even. Krishna tried to negotiate first but the cousin won't listen. That was evil. We all have a birth right to live on earth.
> Anyway maybe I should not have got involved in this discussion as you will probably come up with some weird defence on killing infidels - btw we see the war campaigns on cable TV from the middle east which show Muslims riding to ravage villages, these are Muslim channels in the UK.
> So I am just forming my opinion from what I see on Muslim channels as regards killings, nothing more, I have no personal agenda.
> Anil Bhanot
>
>
>
> Message sent from iPhone
>
>
> On 18 Jun 2011, at 11:27, "S.H.Mohd. Shiyam" <acco...@sikumw.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Mr Anil ,
>> I know Radha was not the Wife for Krishna But Rukmani , but i have just tryed to Querry with Bharat who always come up with the question Why (Prophet Mohammed SAW ) Married a 11 Womens & a Women who was 6 yrs old , & he show his reality by saying words like Stupid etc , I explained him earlier but he dont wanna understand , so i have asked him to answer why Krishna did so , Now i can see you are trying to sideline Krishna saying he can marry 16000 for some reason but if Muslim marry Four he have some evil intention come on man please be fair .So you mean to say the Law for Krishna is diffrent as compare to normal hindu .
>>
>> The fact is all the Great people in past did every thing for some great reason, But people like Bharat & you find your Relegion & people doing thing with reason but others without reason or wrong intention ? You are saying '' I suspect it was because the new Islam conducted several campaigns to kill the pagans'' Please tell me why Krishna ask ARJUN to kill his own relative though he was not willing to do so , YOU KNOW THE ANSWER '' IT IS BECAUSE ACCORDING TO HIM THEY ARE INFIDEL NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY WERE BUT THEY WERE SUPPORTING THE EVIL SO HE ASK ARJUN TO KILL THEM''
>> WHEN SAME THING THE NOBLE QURAN ASKED YOU GUYS ARE THERE TO QUESTION .

>>
>>
>> Accountant
>> Siku Group of Companies
>> Blantyre
>> Tel: + 265 01 871 432
>> Email: acco...@sikumw.com
>>
>>

>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anil Bhanot" <bhano...@gmail.com>
>> To: "S.H.Mohd. Shiyam" <acco...@sikumw.com>
>> Cc: <desi...@googlegroups.com>; "Arya Vajra" <arya.v...@gmail.com>; "GOUTAM CHATTERJEE" <gchatt...@gmail.com>; <shyam_n...@yahoo.com>; <bcm...@gmail.com>; <satish...@yahoo.com>; <arjun...@yahoo.co.uk>; <psab...@hotmail.com>; <hita...@gmail.com>; <kata...@aol.com>; <sadhak_...@yahoo.com>; <jitender...@gmail.com>; <kri...@hindupedia.com>; <shankara...@yahoo.com>; <london...@yahoo.co.uk>; <tinasa...@yahoo.com>; <irmamuns...@gmail.com>; <sande...@hotmail.com>; <ani...@yahoo.co.uk>; <govind...@hotmail.com>; <rishi...@hotmail.com>; <ranbir...@talktalk.net>; <culturalbri...@yahoo.com>; <tcgm...@hotmail.com>; <vyshv...@gmail.com>; <live_by...@yahoo.co.uk>; <drmna...@yahoo.co.uk>; <rsin...@yahoo.com>; <brah...@yahoo.com>; <aryasam...@yahoogroups.com>; <aryayou...@yahoogroups.com>; <bhagav...@yahoo.ca>; <akansh...@yahoo.com>; <arya...@hotmail.com>; <mish...@aol.com>; <msb...@yahoo.com>; <naveen...@yahoo.co.in>; <arun_...@yahoo.com>; <jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in>; <puneet...@gmail.com>; <ashwini...@yahoo.ca>; <eka...@btinternet.com>; <jayasw...@gmail.com>; <as_...@rediffmail.com>; <baksh...@yahoo.com>; <skan...@gmail.com>; <op.t...@gmail.com>; <ahven...@gmail.com>; <gir...@aryasamaj.com>; <arr...@ameritech.net>; <vijaya...@yahoo.com>; <ashoks...@rediffmail.com>; <satyar...@gmail.com>; <vsg...@yahoo.com>; <kcg...@yahoo.com>; <su_...@ymail.com>; <ajaya...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: 18 June, 2011 10:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: (Desiyatra)-- Re: WHERE DOES THE 'TRAITAVAAD' OF ARYA SAMAJ STAND?

[S.H.Mohd. Shiyam]

Dear Mr Anil ,
I know Radha was not the Wife for Krishna But
Rukmani , but i have just tryed to Querry with Bharat who always come up
with the question Why (Prophet Mohammed SAW ) Married a 11 Womens & a Women
who was 6 yrs old , & he show his reality by saying words like Stupid etc ,
I explained him earlier but he dont wanna understand , so i have asked him
to answer why Krishna did so , Now i can see you are trying to sideline
Krishna saying he can marry 16000 for some reason but if Muslim marry Four
he have some evil intention come on man please be fair .So you mean to say
the Law for Krishna is diffrent as compare to normal hindu .

The fact is all the Great people in past did every thing for some great
reason, But people like Bharat & you find your Relegion & people doing thing
with reason but others without reason or wrong intention ? You are saying ''

I suspect it was because the new Islam conducted several campaigns to kill

the pagans'' Please tell me why Krishna ask ARJUN to kill his own relative
though he was not willing to do so , YOU KNOW THE ANSWER '' IT IS BECAUSE
ACCORDING TO HIM THEY ARE INFIDEL NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY WERE BUT THEY WERE
SUPPORTING THE EVIL SO HE ASK ARJUN TO KILL THEM''

WHEN SAME THING THE NOBLE QURAN ASKED YOU GUYS ARE THERE TO QUESTION .

Accountant
Siku Group of Companies
Blantyre
Tel: + 265 01 871 432
Email: acco...@sikumw.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anil Bhanot" <bhano...@gmail.com>
To: "S.H.Mohd. Shiyam" <acco...@sikumw.com>
Cc: <desi...@googlegroups.com>; "Arya Vajra" <arya.v...@gmail.com>;

"GOUTAM CHATTERJEE" <gchatt...@gmail.com>; <shyam_n...@yahoo.com>;
<bcm...@gmail.com>; <satish...@yahoo.com>; <arjun...@yahoo.co.uk>;
<psab...@hotmail.com>; <hita...@gmail.com>; <kata...@aol.com>;
<sadhak_...@yahoo.com>; <jitender...@gmail.com>;
<kri...@hindupedia.com>; <shankara...@yahoo.com>;
<london...@yahoo.co.uk>; <tinasa...@yahoo.com>;
<irmamuns...@gmail.com>; <sande...@hotmail.com>;
<ani...@yahoo.co.uk>; <govind...@hotmail.com>;
<rishi...@hotmail.com>; <ranbir...@talktalk.net>;
<culturalbri...@yahoo.com>; <tcgm...@hotmail.com>;
<vyshv...@gmail.com>; <live_by...@yahoo.co.uk>;
<drmna...@yahoo.co.uk>; <rsin...@yahoo.com>; <brah...@yahoo.com>;
<aryasam...@yahoogroups.com>; <aryayou...@yahoogroups.com>;
<bhagav...@yahoo.ca>; <akansh...@yahoo.com>; <arya...@hotmail.com>;
<mish...@aol.com>; <msb...@yahoo.com>; <naveen...@yahoo.co.in>;
<arun_...@yahoo.com>; <jeetbh...@yahoo.co.in>;
<puneet...@gmail.com>; <ashwini...@yahoo.ca>;
<eka...@btinternet.com>; <jayasw...@gmail.com>;
<as_...@rediffmail.com>; <baksh...@yahoo.com>; <skan...@gmail.com>;
<op.t...@gmail.com>; <ahven...@gmail.com>; <gir...@aryasamaj.com>;

<arr...@ameritech.net>; <vijaya...@yahoo.com>;

<ashoks...@rediffmail.com>; <satyar...@gmail.com>;
<vsg...@yahoo.com>; <kcg...@yahoo.com>; <su_...@ymail.com>;
<ajaya...@gmail.com>

Sent: 18 June, 2011 10:21 AM

Subject: Re: (Desiyatra)-- Re: WHERE DOES THE 'TRAITAVAAD' OF ARYA SAMAJ

[Anil Bhanot]

No you haven't tried to understand what I said but just went on the defensive.
The (higher) law is the same for everyone and that is why I said that number of wives depended on what was accepted or necessary at the time - it is a social thing not a divine matter. As for your evil whatever society does as acceptable but actually is harmful - say marrying many wives but exploiting them - to others is evil. It is not a matter of 1 or 4 wives. That would be according to the higher law.
Krishna telling Arjuna to fight evil was based on that higher law not because the cousins did not believe in something, as you seem to be justifying killing humans if they were infidels. That act of killing is also evil as everyone has free will and you cannot go round killing people if they disagree with your belief system. Krishna did not tell Arjun to kill due to a difference of opinion but because his cousin tried to kill the pandavs many times and in the end as a crown prince said he will not give an inch of land for them to live on even. Krishna tried to negotiate first but the cousin won't listen. That was evil. We all have a birth right to live on earth.
Anyway maybe I should not have got involved in this discussion as you will probably come up with some weird defence on killing infidels - btw we see the war campaigns on cable TV from the middle east which show Muslims riding to ravage villages, these are Muslim channels in the UK.
So I am just forming my opinion from what I see on Muslim channels as regards killings, nothing more, I have no personal agenda.
Anil Bhanot

Message sent from iPhone

On 18 Jun 2011, at 11:27, "S.H.Mohd. Shiyam" <acco...@sikumw.com> wrote: