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Sharmaine Kachmar
Hello again, I came across this Aegidius Klotz cello of 1795. I'm trying to do some leg work myself to try and pin a possible maker to my cello. I'm not savy in these things, what are your opinions. Were these "f" holes and scrolls cut by the same hand. I know my cello was made during the later part of the 18th century, possible beginning of first decade of 19th. Aegidius Klotz died approx 1807. I respect your imput, its always a learning experience for me.
It's been 7 years since I first posted to this site. Some of you will remember the Klotz cello in need of restoration. The restoration began approx 1 year ago by Paul Perley. It should be ready in approx 45 days. We had to replace the bottom rib, I have it for future restoration. When it's all said and done restoration plus cost of instrument should amount to $17,000. I will post pictures soon
Hello again Dear Lovely Ladies,
Once again a huge thank you to Christine and to all of you....for being here for each other and for sharing your wisdom. Thank you to Surviving for your responses to my questions. I am reading and doing the exercises with video now (first day today since I have just received my bundle and can now get started with this part). I am obsessively trying WW posture constantly for one week now (I have another 3 weeks before I have a dr diagnosis. My hip joints are very sore, especially when first getting up in the morning. This is new this week. Does anyone have experience with this? I am thinking that it is because I am still adjusting to the WW posture but I would love to know if anyone else has this issue. I am 60, was used to a 3 mile walk every morning and some yoga (which I have stopped now until I have the posture and Christine's exercises well balanced in my life so that I know better what is safe to do). The walks I continue with each day but I am constantly thinking of this new position and maybe it is causing both the hips and upper back to get very sore and tired. Maybe I am overdoing it. Is the lumbar curve we are working on the same curve as what is described by some dancers and some pts as the neutral spine? or are we working on developing a more exaggerated curve or simply the curve that our body will do naturally with a relaxed belly and lifted chest? I posted earlier on the difficulty in finding my seated position with the cello (I teach many hours each day and this is really my biggest hurdle right now). I have raised the height of the chair which I think is helping but the tiredness I feel in my back (both lower and upper back) and I feel a bulge in the vaginal area. As long as the belly is relaxed and the curve is there, do you think this is still okay? I am not sitting for long periods now but get up every ten minutes or so but in order to demonstrate and accompany my students, I must find a seated position that I can function with and still honor the WW seated position with cello. Maybe the fact that it leans on the chest is also an issue right now. I greatly appreciate any thoughts. Thank you so much.
I can see that playing the cello could offer an opportunity for deep WW postural work if you were playing
more like this, yet be very hard on your pelvic anatomy and your spine if you play in
this kind of posture.
If I played the cello I would sit more like the first image, with my chest lifted, chin tucked, shoulders down (shoulder blades never pulled together), upper back flat and broad, lower belly relaxed over my thighs (not simply flopped out because the abdominal wall is lifted with the chest) and hips widely turned out. The knees would be as turned out as the hips and over the second and third toes. This straddle position provides for good lumbar curvature.
Thank you so much for these comments. I will read this many times with care and appreciate these thoughts. I am excited to try the hips turned out with cello position as this indeed is something I have never done or ever heard done from my various teachers. Maybe through all of this we will also find a much healthier position for the music making that we do with cello! Thank you. I will study also the First Wheel now. I am ever so grateful.
"just do it and practice" has not showed any improvement in the last months. Is there any recommended exercise or change of posture to make it go faster?One example below. I trip in each trill asking high note pinky :-P
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joel quiveySeptember 5, 2018, 1:17 AM Hello again Carlos. For the fourth finger trill release the first and second fingers--off of the fingerboard. To get better leverage and better angle, rotate the wrist a little bit towards you. Pianists do something like that; I have heard the word "topping". Don't try to trill too fast. All-that example is from Tartini's "Art of Bowing", which is more about trills and ornaments than bowing.
Carlos D'AgulleiroSeptember 5, 2018, 2:02 AM Thanks Joel. I'll practice that. Yes, that's the work. I picked it up precisely for practice of ornaments and bowings, but -among other parts-, those trills became a big wall.
Steve JonesSeptember 5, 2018, 2:32 AM I do believe that some of us simply lack the ability to move the fourth and fifth digits independently, for anatomical reasons that are pretty much insuperable. Back in prehistory I cultivated a vibrato-like shake (to the disapproval of my teacher) and still use it!
Joel HoeSeptember 5, 2018, 6:07 AM Vibrato trills are a legitimate technique, aren't they?
Lydia LeongEdited: September 5, 2018, 8:21 AM I don't have 3rd and 4th finger independence, but I have no problem doing a 4th finger trill. You don't need to move the finger very much.You need to do things that are a 4th finger workout. Try Schradieck op. 1 no. 1, for instance. There's also the Sevcik op. 7 trill exercises.
jean dubuissonSeptember 5, 2018, 9:26 AM Carlos the more you work on an effective left hand position with nicely rounded pinky with flexible final joint, finger independence, fingers moving from the base joints, things like double-stopped thirds, the works; ...magically at some point you will suddenly be able to execute fourth finger trills. At least that was how it went with me. The art of bowing is a fun etude book!
Scott ColeSeptember 5, 2018, 9:27 AM I know it's wimping out, but I always use 3 instead of 4. There's always a way to refinger it.
Scott ColeSeptember 5, 2018, 11:03 AM "Vibrato trills are a legitimate technique, aren't they?"They can be, and certainly you see many people trilling that way. The question is whether you have control over the trill, or whether the vibrato motion just gives you one speed. Often we speed up or slow down trills for expression, just as we play with the intensity of vibrato.
Adalberto Valle-RiveraSeptember 5, 2018, 11:14 AM To be fair, it's everyone's weaker finger, and I don't believe most players with a few years in the instrument will master them right away. Indeed as Mr. Cole stated, many would refinger a passage instead (it's not wrong if it sounds good.)I would still practice 4th finger trills
as a way to challenge the brain/hand to deal with the problem, so other more difficult problems become much easier later on. Eventually you will need to play double stop trills, in short to long passages, and it's much more satisfying to do them "right" if you are able to (and I do believe "anyone" can.) Many passages in the repertoire do benefit more from 2-3 than 3-4 anyway, so don't lose heart and keep working patiently as you are doing. Utter relaxation of the hand, and never thinking the 4th finger must travel much or "work hard" will help (should be rather "effortless" and simple.)
Christian LesniakSeptember 5, 2018, 11:31 AM I think the Schradieck approach makes sense - Work on your 4th finger-falling technique in general and apply that to your trills. You can also work trill specific etudes in Kreutzer, but always slowly. The issue may be exacerbated by your hand position - If your hand isn't positioned in a way where you can pull your 4th finger back relaxed, then that's something to look at. You may also be squeezing your thumb or doing something with your wrist - make sure to keep it straight and relaxed. googletag.cmd.push(function() googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1445120547957-0'); );
Dawson WeberSeptember 5, 2018, 11:31 AM Nathan Cole has two videos about trills and pinkies:
joel quiveyEdited: September 7, 2018, 11:57 AM --The vibrato trill sounds great for east europe folk styles, but is too sloppy or wild for Mozart. There is a short exercise that I call "taps and lifts", published in several places, including somewhere in the Doflein series, that works just as well as all those tedious pages of etudes. Focus on lifting the finger. The muscles that open the hand are naturally weaker and slower than the muscles that close the hand; who else besides musicians need to do that motion with any force or speed?
Steve JonesSeptember 5, 2018, 1:55 PM I can't do the youtube implant thing but this is my favourite example of what some androids can do with their pinky that mere mortals can only gasp at: =O_8M9Ycd35kKristof Barati of course isn't an android, but seems to be blessed with an extra phalanx and an extra lobe in his motor cortex to control it with.
Albrecht ZumbrunnSeptember 6, 2018, 1:58 AM Mazas # 13 is designed for exactly this. It is a good idea to practice the 4th finger trill but in reality your 2nd and 3rd finger trills will always be better and to figure out fingerings to avoid fourth finger trills is preferable in almost all situations.
Kevin CheungSeptember 6, 2018, 3:01 AM Make sure your third finger is not pressing too hard on the string.
Erik WilliamsSeptember 6, 2018, 8:02 PM Yeah, I'd just choose a fingering that allows me to use 2 + 3 in almost all situations.
Carlos D'AgulleiroSeptember 6, 2018, 9:32 PM Thank you all with the answers and suggestions. My teacher has also added the suggestion (or corrected me) to do the trills with the pinky stretched (and adapting the hand for that) instead of bent as I did. Changing the fingering for a pinky trill or vibratto is what I would normally do, but I am not sure that's the answer when it's a core point of the piece.
I crashed this wall when starting practicing Nicola Matteis' Diverse bizzarrie sopra la vecchia Sarabanda o pur Ciaccona. A really wonderful piece. You may find the partiture: :ImagefromIndex/389823/ia65 and below is the beginning.
What would be your approach? Adapt all fingerings to avoid trill in 4th finger or bite the bullet?
Erik WilliamsSeptember 6, 2018, 9:49 PM I would be using a lot of 2nd position in that piece, definitely. If it's my goal to make the piece sound as good as possible, then it would be my decision to use trills that I'm most competent with. When a piece is designed/used for the purpose of improving a specific part of our playing, then we can call it an etude. So if it's an etude, then I'll do whatever fingerings are listed (or follow the instructions if there are any) as a way of "exercising" something. But otherwise, I'll "cheat" as much as possible in order to produce the best overall sound.
jean dubuissonSeptember 7, 2018, 3:04 AM hi Carlos, yes and yes. yes to working on etudes the way they are meant, also if that means fourth finger trills. but on the other hand, yes, on that piece I suppose the normal thing to do for this "F G A Dtrill" pattern is to play FGA in first position and then place second finger on D to do the trill, although there are many more options of course.
Trevor JenningsSeptember 7, 2018, 7:29 AM Adalberto's comment about "Utter relaxation of the hand" is of paramount importance. A really fast 4th finger trill is more like a fast fluttering of the very relaxed finger on the string.A regular part of my warm-up is 4th finger trilling without the bow.
Carlos D'AgulleiroSeptember 7, 2018, 7:43 AM Thank you all. I can't mention everyone, but I'm reading each comment and I feel (more than listen) ease on the exercise. googletag.cmd.push(function() googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1548883144385-0'); ); This discussion has been archived and is no longer accepting responses.