Can you help me turn the Amiga <Tables>?
Angus Manwaring
Hi all,
I wanted to create a webpage where you could see the release dates
of various "important" Amiga games between the years 1985-1995; 11 years
or so. I wanted to include various political events, and maybe some
film/music releases as well to create a feeling of what was going on in
the world when "X" was released.
...sad isn't it. :)
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that I want the format to be severeal horizontal
screen widths (you would scroll across to cover the entire period) and the
use of html table to hang things together. This is where my problems
begin, my web kung fu is pretty poor, and things aren't looking correct.
Basically, I want the top row to be divided into 11 equal sections over
say 11 screen widths, each with a year inside.
Under that I want 44 columns (4 per year) with perhaps 10 rows each.
This way the 4th column should coincide vertically with the end of each
year, if you see what I mean.
My first Table (the years) do not use the space equally, and my second
Table (games and events) don't match the years, can anyone help?
I've shoved my early effort below, try not to laugh too much, please. :)
<html>
<head>
<title> The AGDB 1985-1995 Timeline </title>
</head>
<Body BGColor=navy>
<h1> The AGDB 1985-1995 Timeline </h1>
<Table Width=1100% Border=1>
<TH Width="*"><H2>1985<TH><H2>1986<TH><H2>1987<TH><H2>1988<TH><H2>1989<TH><H2>1990<TH><H2>1991<TH><H2>1992<TH><H2>1993<TH><H2>1994<TH><H2>1995</H2><TH>
</Table>
<Table Width=1100% Border=1>
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TD Width=10%><Font Color=White>Mindwalker released
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
<TR><TD>
</body>
</html>
All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Chris Hewitt
>Hi all,
> I wanted to create a webpage where you could see the release dates
>of various "important" Amiga games between the years 1985-1995; 11 years
>or so. I wanted to include various political events, and maybe some
>film/music releases as well to create a feeling of what was going on in
>the world when "X" was released.
>...sad isn't it. :)
>Anyway, I'm pretty sure that I want the format to be severeal horizontal
>screen widths (you would scroll across to cover the entire period) and the
>use of html table to hang things together. This is where my problems
>begin, my web kung fu is pretty poor, and things aren't looking correct.
>Basically, I want the top row to be divided into 11 equal sections over
>say 11 screen widths, each with a year inside.
Any particular reason you need all 11 years on one page rather than a
page for each?
>Under that I want 44 columns (4 per year) with perhaps 10 rows each.
>This way the 4th column should coincide vertically with the end of each
>year, if you see what I mean.
Anyway, if you do want to do it that way, I think your problem is trying
to use 2 tables when you only need one. To do what you are trying in a
single table try:
<TABLE>
<TR>
<TH COLSPAN="4">Year 1</TH><TH COLSPAN="4">Year 2</TH> etc...
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>section1</TD><TD>section2</TD><TD>section3</TD><TD>section4</TD>
<TD>section1</TD><TD>section2</TD><TD>section3</TD><TD>section4</TD>
etc..
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>section1</TD><TD>section2</TD><TD>section3</TD><TD>section4</TD>
<TD>section1</TD><TD>section2</TD><TD>section3</TD><TD>section4</TD>
etc..
</TR>
</TABLE>
This will give you a header line where each column takes the space of 4
columns under it.
HTH,
Chris
--
Chris Hewitt - ch...@liquid-diamonds.org.uk - Datura on Quake 2/3 - Team AMIGA
Home Page - http://www.liquid-diamonds.org.uk/
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Angus Manwaring
>Greetings Angus Manwaring
>>Hi all,
>> I wanted to create a webpage where you could see the release dates
>>of various "important" Amiga games between the years 1985-1995; 11 years
>>or so. I wanted to include various political events, and maybe some
>>film/music releases as well to create a feeling of what was going on in
>>the world when "X" was released.
>>...sad isn't it. :)
Dave and Chris thank you for your follow-ups.
>Any particular reason you need all 11 years on one page rather than a
>page for each?
I just kind of liked the scrolling through the years concept. :)
>Anyway, if you do want to do it that way, I think your problem is trying
>to use 2 tables when you only need one. To do what you are trying in a
>single table try:
><TABLE>
--------snip of useful and competent html------
Thank you both, I've taken onboard what you've said, and used your html
which does the trick. Much appreciated. :)
Chris Hewitt
>On 27-Aug-00 19:04:26, Chris Hewitt said
>>Greetings Angus Manwaring
>>>Hi all,
>>> I wanted to create a webpage where you could see the release dates
>>>of various "important" Amiga games between the years 1985-1995; 11 years
>>>or so. I wanted to include various political events, and maybe some
>>>film/music releases as well to create a feeling of what was going on in
>>>the world when "X" was released.
>>>...sad isn't it. :)
>Dave and Chris thank you for your follow-ups.
Not a problem.
>>Any particular reason you need all 11 years on one page rather than a
>>page for each?
>I just kind of liked the scrolling through the years concept. :)
Yeah, I can live with that :-)
>>Anyway, if you do want to do it that way, I think your problem is trying
>>to use 2 tables when you only need one. To do what you are trying in a
>>single table try:
>><TABLE>
>--------snip of useful and competent html------
Brought about by much trial and error, not to mention banging of heads
on walls etc.. over the years.
When you start getting into dynamic content using databases and PHP
things really start to get interesting :-)
Angus Manwaring
>Greetings Angus Manwaring
>>>Any particular reason you need all 11 years on one page rather than a
>>>page for each?
>>I just kind of liked the scrolling through the years concept. :)
>Yeah, I can live with that :-)
I appreciate that. :)
>When you start getting into dynamic content using databases and PHP
>things really start to get interesting :-)
Nice of you to put it that way, but I've got another stupid question....
:)
You've got the 11 years in TH row along the top, and then under that
several columns of 44 cells (4 to a year) Some cells will have more text
in than others, is there a simple way I can keep all the cells in all the
rows, the same width, and remain 4 to a year? Table has a length of 1100%
so a screen width equals a year, BTW. I've tried shoving in the width
2.5% in the TD field, but I'm probably doing something wrong. :-/
Chris Hewitt
>On 29-Aug-00 18:36:14, Chris Hewitt said
>>Greetings Angus Manwaring
>>>>Any particular reason you need all 11 years on one page rather than a
>>>>page for each?
>>>I just kind of liked the scrolling through the years concept. :)
>>Yeah, I can live with that :-)
>I appreciate that. :)
>>When you start getting into dynamic content using databases and PHP
>>things really start to get interesting :-)
>Nice of you to put it that way, but I've got another stupid question....
>:)
>You've got the 11 years in TH row along the top, and then under that
>several columns of 44 cells (4 to a year) Some cells will have more text
>in than others, is there a simple way I can keep all the cells in all the
>rows, the same width, and remain 4 to a year? Table has a length of 1100%
>so a screen width equals a year, BTW. I've tried shoving in the width
>2.5% in the TD field, but I'm probably doing something wrong. :-/
Seeing as the table you have is wider than a screen anyway, why not use
absolute widths for the table and columns rather than percentages.
IMO percentage widths are only really useful when you are trying to
present a layout that adapts to someones screen width. I tried a simple
test using absolute widths (ie WIDTH="x" rather that WIDTH="x%") and it
seems to work OK.
All this said, though tables sometimes just seem to have a mind of their
own :-(
Angus Manwaring
>All this said, though tables sometimes just seem to have a mind of their
>own :-(
This certainly seem to support my experiences. :-/
I dug up Voyager which I never use, as I prefer IBrowse, and it displayed
my table perfectly, I had a width of 1100% and a cell width of 2.5%.
Result: 11 screens showing one year each in the top (header) row, and
under that several rows that divided into four horizontally equal portions
per year. When there's a lot of text in a cell it just wraps, making that
row bigger vertically, which is fine. Cool!
In IBrowse though, the cell with a longer bit of text wouldn't wrap the
text, it just stretched that cell horizontally, as well as the
corresponding year at the top. - Not good. :(
I tried the idea about using pixel values for width as opposed to
percentages. It works up to a point with IBrowse, as long as each year is
a bit less than half a screen the text wraps where it needs to, and all is
well. The only trouble is I wanted each year to be bigger than that
(ideally a screenwidth).
...any suggestions?
Chris Hewitt
>On 30-Aug-00 18:59:12, Chris Hewitt said
>>All this said, though tables sometimes just seem to have a mind of their
>>own :-(
>This certainly seem to support my experiences. :-/
>I dug up Voyager which I never use, as I prefer IBrowse, and it displayed
>my table perfectly, I had a width of 1100% and a cell width of 2.5%.
>Result: 11 screens showing one year each in the top (header) row, and
>under that several rows that divided into four horizontally equal portions
>per year. When there's a lot of text in a cell it just wraps, making that
>row bigger vertically, which is fine. Cool!
At least it works somewhere then :-)
[mini-snippage]
>I tried the idea about using pixel values for width as opposed to
>percentages. It works up to a point with IBrowse, as long as each year is
>a bit less than half a screen the text wraps where it needs to, and all is
>well. The only trouble is I wanted each year to be bigger than that
>(ideally a screenwidth).
>...any suggestions?
If you want to wrap the text at an exact point, you can put a <BR> in
and it seems to do the job(ish). The problem with this is that and text
that is on a single line gets centred vertically ie
Cell1 Line1
Cell 2 Line1
Cell1 Line2
The other possible way is to use 2 rows, using " " (without the
quotes) where there is no text on the second line.
Failing any of the above, I think you've reached the point where it is
just down to how individual browsers interpret your table. More than
likely each one you try it on will be different from the next. If you
have an URL, I can test it on IE5.5, Opera4, Netscape4.7 & Netscape 6
Preview2 if you haven't got access to Windows browsers.
Angus Manwaring
>The other possible way is to use 2 rows, using " " (without the
>quotes) where there is no text on the second line.
I can't get this html command to work with IBrowse. Is it me or doesn't
IBrowse support it?
Chris Hewitt
>On 01-Sep-00 18:39:24, Chris Hewitt said
>>The other possible way is to use 2 rows, using " " (without the
>>quotes) where there is no text on the second line.
>I can't get this html command to work with IBrowse. Is it me or doesn't
>IBrowse support it?
In what way doesn't it work? Does it appear to do nothing or display the
text or something else. Also what version of IBrowse. I've just tried it
on 2.2 Demo and it seemed to work as expected - ie insert a space.
Angus Manwaring
>Greetings Angus Manwaring
>>On 01-Sep-00 18:39:24, Chris Hewitt said
>>>The other possible way is to use 2 rows, using " " (without the
>>>quotes) where there is no text on the second line.
>>I can't get this html command to work with IBrowse. Is it me or doesn't
>>IBrowse support it?
>In what way doesn't it work? Does it appear to do nothing or display the
>text or something else. Also what version of IBrowse. I've just tried it
>on 2.2 Demo and it seemed to work as expected - ie insert a space.
Ooops! :)
I was using the command in the angle brackets which is why it didn't work,
(although it doesn't seem to work on my old Voyager demo at all - but who
cares? Not me.)
But anyway I don't think it's going to be an acceptable solution Chris. :(
Let me just state again what I'm trying to do:
I want to make a table that stretches across 11 screenwidths. The top row,
represents the 11 years from 1985 to 1995, each year stretching one
screen. Below that each year/screen is divided into 4 equal columns,
(4 seasons if you like) which will have various events that happened in
that period. There'll be several of these "event rows". Thanks to you
guys, I've got the table sorted, it's just that when I insert text into a
specific "event" cell, if the text is longer than the width of the cell
(hope that makes sense!) it doesn't wrap round into a second row in
IBrowse; it streches that cell, and that year so things start looking
rather daft.
I did some experimenting around with IBrowse and found that if I placed a
really long piece of text into every cell on one line, it _did_ wrap
round, and everything looked good. So possibly I could put this text in,
using the same colour as the background so it's not visible, and the rest
of the cells will be constrained into behaving themselves. Then I thought,
that's daft, and there's got to be a proper way of doing it. Hasn't there?
:)
Or should I use this workaround?
Chris Hewitt
>On 13-Sep-00 21:42:19, Chris Hewitt said
>>Greetings Angus Manwaring
>>>>The other possible way is to use 2 rows, using " " (without the
>>>>quotes) where there is no text on the second line.
>>>I can't get this html command to work with IBrowse. Is it me or doesn't
>>>IBrowse support it?
>>In what way doesn't it work? Does it appear to do nothing or display the
>>text or something else. Also what version of IBrowse. I've just tried it
>>on 2.2 Demo and it seemed to work as expected - ie insert a space.
>Ooops! :)
>I was using the command in the angle brackets which is why it didn't work,
>(although it doesn't seem to work on my old Voyager demo at all - but who
>cares? Not me.)
Its always the simple things that take *ages* to spot and seconds to
fix.
>But anyway I don't think it's going to be an acceptable solution Chris. :(
Well it was an idea.....
>Let me just state again what I'm trying to do:
[explaination snipped]
>I did some experimenting around with IBrowse and found that if I placed a
>really long piece of text into every cell on one line, it _did_ wrap
>round, and everything looked good. So possibly I could put this text in,
>using the same colour as the background so it's not visible, and the rest
>of the cells will be constrained into behaving themselves. Then I thought,
>that's daft, and there's got to be a proper way of doing it. Hasn't there?
>:)
I'm right out of ideas now :-(
I think that is the nature of tables in HTML. After all their sole real
purpose is just to display tabulated data. They were not originally
conceived (sp?) to provide a page layout tool. Just a shame that that's
what most people use them for :-)
In the end if you find solution that works then go for it - just try it
in as many browsers as you can first.
Angus Manwaring
>I'm right out of ideas now :-(
>I think that is the nature of tables in HTML. After all their sole real
>purpose is just to display tabulated data. They were not originally
>conceived (sp?) to provide a page layout tool. Just a shame that that's
>what most people use them for :-)
Definitely. :)
>In the end if you find solution that works then go for it - just try it
>in as many browsers as you can first.
Sound advice, my major concern though is IBrowse, because I think it's
possibly the Amiga browser that is most popular. It is here anyway. :)
I've put a skeletal version just for reference on my website if anyone is
interested in having a look and making suggestions:
http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/temp/Timeline.html
Angus Manwaring
>Don't forget CheckHTML - this will spot errors which many browsers
>ignore. Correcting these 'invisible' errors makes it more likely
>that your HTML will work on browsers you have never tried.
I'm sort of getting the impression that most browsers are not going to see
things _my_ way, unfortunately. :)
Anyway, I've ploughed on to some extent, is there any chance some
volunteers could take a look at the page? I know how it looks in IBrowse
and Voyager (my old versions) and I'm happy with that. I tried the AmigaActive
demo of AWeb and it was bloody awful though. :)
I'd be interested in how the newer versions of Voyager and IBrowse get
on though, and some of the PC browsers. Anybody? Pretty please.
The URL is
http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/Temp/Timeline.html
and so that you can tell how it is supposed to look there is a screenshot
at:
http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/Temp/Timeline.jpg
If you fancy sending me screengrab or just posting any comment/suggestions
think of me as a large ear. o
:)
o
Chris Hewitt
>On 17-Sep-00 08:55:06, Dave Sparks said
>>Don't forget CheckHTML - this will spot errors which many browsers
>>ignore. Correcting these 'invisible' errors makes it more likely
>>that your HTML will work on browsers you have never tried.
>I'm sort of getting the impression that most browsers are not going to see
>things _my_ way, unfortunately. :)
>Anyway, I've ploughed on to some extent, is there any chance some
>volunteers could take a look at the page? I know how it looks in IBrowse
>and Voyager (my old versions) and I'm happy with that. I tried the
>AmigaActive demo of AWeb and it was bloody awful though. :)
>I'd be interested in how the newer versions of Voyager and IBrowse get
>on though, and some of the PC browsers. Anybody? Pretty please.
Ok then,
IBrowse V2.2 Demo reders it just like your .jpg screenshot.
Microsoft IE5.5, Netscape 4.7 & Opera 4.02 all render it as the
screenshot except that they only grid lines where there is something
in the cell. ie you end up with something like:
+--------+--------+--------+
| Cell 1 | Cell 3 | Cell 3 |
+--------+--------+--------+
| |
| +--------+ |
| | Wibble | |
| +--------+ |
| |
+--------+--------+--------+
This may or may not be a problem. If you want to show the grid to be
shown just stick the afore mentioned in any cell with no other
text.
The only other browser I've tried it in is Netscape 6 Preview 2 and that
made a total mess of it. Mind you, it seems to make a total mess of
everything so I wouldn't read too much into that.
On a separate point, none of your <TD> tags have closing </TD> tags.
Technially they are optional, but it is always a good idea to include
them.
Angus Manwaring
>Greetings Angus Manwaring
>>On 17-Sep-00 08:55:06, Dave Sparks said
>>I'd be interested in how the newer versions of Voyager and IBrowse get
>>on though, and some of the PC browsers. Anybody? Pretty please.
>Ok then,
>IBrowse V2.2 Demo reders it just like your .jpg screenshot.
Good! :)
>Microsoft IE5.5, Netscape 4.7 & Opera 4.02 all render it as the
>screenshot except that they only grid lines where there is something
>in the cell. ie you end up with something like:
>+--------+--------+--------+
>| Cell 1 | Cell 3 | Cell 3 |
>+--------+--------+--------+
>| |
>| +--------+ |
>| | Wibble | |
>| +--------+ |
>| |
>+--------+--------+--------+
Hmmm.... that's better than I expected, nice ascii art by the way, Chris.
:)
>This may or may not be a problem. If you want to show the grid to be
>shown just stick the afore mentioned in any cell with no other
>text.
That is now done.
>The only other browser I've tried it in is Netscape 6 Preview 2 and that
>made a total mess of it. Mind you, it seems to make a total mess of
>everything so I wouldn't read too much into that.
Cool. I will again follow your advice.
>On a separate point, none of your <TD> tags have closing </TD> tags.
>Technially they are optional, but it is always a good idea to include
>them.
That is also now done, very many thanks Chris. Hopefully I haven't
buggered anything up in the changes. :)
Angus Manwaring
>Angus Manwaring in a moment of madness wrote:
>> I'd be interested in how the newer versions of Voyager and IBrowse get
>> on though, and some of the PC browsers. Anybody? Pretty please.
>Ibrowse 2.2 sees it exactly the same as the .jpg
Thanks Stephen, that's good news.
Angus Manwaring
>>>>>> "AM" == Angus Manwaring <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> writes:
AM>> On 17-Sep-00 08:55:06, Dave Sparks said
> >> Don't forget CheckHTML - this will spot errors which many browsers
> >> ignore. Correcting these 'invisible' errors makes it more likely that
> >> your HTML will work on browsers you have never tried.
AM>> I'm sort of getting the impression that most browsers are not going
AM>> to see things _my_ way, unfortunately. :)
Guys, just to say thanks for all the help with this project, and just
incase anyone is interested in the result or wanted to know what the idea
was about.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The idea was to show some of the more "signifigant" Amiga games releases,
not only in the form of a timeline, but also within the context of
historical events, cultural highlights (of the popular variety) and with
reference to what the competition (Atari, Nintendo and Sony etc) were doing
at the time. I decided just to show the first 11 years, (1985-1995)
because that was quite enough for me to be going on with.
BTW, the reason I say, "signifigant" is because its not supposed to be a
list of the best Amiga games. I tried to choose games that, good or bad,
made some kind of splash ......even if only because of the amount of
marketing. Anyway, I hope you like it, I'll be trying to improve it
further and would welcome comments.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and does anyone want to review any games? :)