ADSL2+ offerings

[Laurence Hansen]

I've been on Home Office 8000 for ages now, no chance of an upgrade as
the local exchange was not enabled for ADSL2+. Well I've just looked on
Demon's website and it seems that ADSL2+ is now available to me.

Currently my router synchs at 7.6 or thereabouts, but speedtests
inevitably fall in the 2-3 Mbps range. I am now told that if I move to
Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited that "You will get an estimated
speed of 14.50 Mbps...on this telephone number."

Does this mean what it says, or is it equivalent to 'up to' - ie I'm
unlikely to see anything like that in terms of data throughput?

Anything else I should be aware of? I usually find if something seems
too good to be true, it often is!

Thanks

[Peter Ceresole]

Laurence Hansen <nos...@rdg.ac.uk> wrote:

> Does this mean what it says, or is it equivalent to 'up to' - ie I'm
> unlikely to see anything like that in terms of data throughput?

I think that all these things are 'up to'. There are so many factors
that come into play. But you should see a very useful increase in speed.

Demon's estimate of the speed for my connection, when we moved house,
was very accurate. Sadly, it was 4Mbps. In practice I get that. But the
broadband infrastructure is getting better, bit by bit. You might get a
nice surprise.
--
Peter

[David Rance]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 Laurence Hansen wrote:

>I've been on Home Office 8000 for ages now, no chance of an upgrade as
>the local exchange was not enabled for ADSL2+. Well I've just looked on
>Demon's website and it seems that ADSL2+ is now available to me.
>
>Currently my router synchs at 7.6 or thereabouts, but speedtests
>inevitably fall in the 2-3 Mbps range. I am now told that if I move to
>Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited that "You will get an estimated
>speed of 14.50 Mbps...on this telephone number."
>
>Does this mean what it says, or is it equivalent to 'up to' - ie I'm
>unlikely to see anything like that in terms of data throughput?

If it says an estimated speed then that is what they expect it to be,
bearing in mind the quality of your line and the distance from the
exchange. But on my line the estimated speed is about 3 to 4Mbps, the
connect speed is just under 6Mbps and the actual download speed is just
above 5Mbps.

>
>Anything else I should be aware of? I usually find if something seems
>too good to be true, it often is!

Well, from my own experience here in Caversham, I don't get anything
noticeably different when I'm connected ADSL2+ to when I connect with
ADSL. In fact I suspect that ADSL can be slightly faster!

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

[John Hall]

In article <woISs.42631$LQ3....@fx15.fr7>,

I've just made that upgrade myself - see the "Demon service speed"
thread. I think that 14.5 is an "up to". I think the availabilty checker
quoted 17MB for me, which I took with a pinch of salt. In the event, my
first post-upgrade speed test showed an increase from 3.04 to 5.61,
still well worth having. But my main reason for upgrading was that
BusinessLite+ is a bit cheaper than HomeOffice8000.
--
John Hall

"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong."
Oscar Wilde

[Cliff Frisby]

Laurence Hansen wrote:

> I've been on Home Office 8000 for ages now, no chance of an upgrade as
> the local exchange was not enabled for ADSL2+. Well I've just looked on
> Demon's website and it seems that ADSL2+ is now available to me.
>
> Currently my router synchs at 7.6 or thereabouts, but speedtests
> inevitably fall in the 2-3 Mbps range. I am now told that if I move to
> Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited that "You will get an estimated
> speed of 14.50 Mbps...on this telephone number."
>
> Does this mean what it says, or is it equivalent to 'up to' - ie I'm
> unlikely to see anything like that in terms of data throughput?
>

It's seems plausible that it is a proper estimate of what you could get.
There are graphs around that indicate that the ADSL2+ speed multiplier
increases as distance as distance from exchange decreases. In other words,
the rich get disproportionately richer, if wealth was measured by ADSL
speed.

It poor blighters like me that only get a tiny benefit from ADSL2+, even
though we are right down in the 3-4 Mb/s range.

See the graph here:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3525-will-broadband-providers-ever-reach-agreement-on-advertising-terms.html

[John]

In message <woISs.42631$LQ3....@fx15.fr7>, Laurence Hansen
<nos...@rdg.ac.uk> writes

>I've been on Home Office 8000 for ages now, no chance of an upgrade as
>the local exchange was not enabled for ADSL2+. Well I've just looked on
>Demon's website and it seems that ADSL2+ is now available to me.
>
>Currently my router synchs at 7.6 or thereabouts, but speedtests
>inevitably fall in the 2-3 Mbps range. I am now told that if I move to
>Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited that "You will get an estimated
>speed of 14.50 Mbps...on this telephone number."

Interesting. I have recently moved here and was told that I could only
get an 8000 service. I checked on the Demon website at the time and it
confirmed that no ADSL2+ service was available. I was also told that if
ADSL2+ or fibre became available that I could upgrade mid contract with
no penalty.

Having read your post I just checked the Demon website again and can now
apparently get Demon Business Lite+. It also quotes a speed of 14.50
Mbps. I'm guessing this is just a conservative estimate as I currently
get 8096 Kbps, with a 14.2dB noise margin, so should comfortably be able
to get the full advertised "up to 17Mbps". As to actual data speeds
these will be lower. Before I moved I used to get a 17Mbps connection
but speedtests showed actual data rates at around 12Mbps.

My exchange does not have C&W LLU (according to SamKnows) so I am
guessing that Demon now just re-sell the BT service (is there anything
left that Demon actually do themselves?). This may mean that others on
an 8000 service may find that they can upgrade if their exchange has
been upgraded to 21CN.

However I do note that on the home page for Business Lite+ it says "from
�13.00 per month (excl VAT). As soon as I enter my telephone number it
shoots up to �18.50 per month for a 24 month contract (less 5% if you
pay annually). So is C&W LLU cheaper than using BT?

Before I give Sales a call I have 2 quick questions. Does anyone know
if Demon Business Lite+:

1) includes access to Newsgroups?

2) includes "free" webhosting, like Homepages?

Neither of these is mentioned in the "full feature list"

Many thanks



--
John

[John]

In message <MsNhvKDW...@nospam.demon.co.uk>, John
<jo...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes

>
>However I do note that on the home page for Business Lite+ it says
>"from �13.00 per month (excl VAT). As soon as I enter my telephone
>number it shoots up to �18.50 per month for a 24 month contract (less
>5% if you pay annually). So is C&W LLU cheaper than using BT?
>
>Before I give Sales a call I have 2 quick questions. Does anyone know
>if Demon Business Lite+:
>
>1) includes access to Newsgroups?
>
>2) includes "free" webhosting, like Homepages?
>

Not good to follow up my own post I know, but just looked at Demon
Business Unlimited and it is only 50 pence a month dearer. So, same 2
questions apply, as again they are not mentioned.

Many thanks



--
John

[Laurence Hansen]

On 13/02/2013 11:14, John Hall wrote:
> I've just made that upgrade myself - see the "Demon service speed"
> thread. I think that 14.5 is an "up to". I think the availabilty checker
> quoted 17MB for me, which I took with a pinch of salt. In the event, my
> first post-upgrade speed test showed an increase from 3.04 to 5.61,
> still well worth having. But my main reason for upgrading was that
> BusinessLite+ is a bit cheaper than HomeOffice8000.
>

Thanks John, that's useful. Could I ask what your sync speed was before
the upgrade?

Yes it is a bit cheaper, also has no download restrictions between 2300
and 0900 so could be useful for those households with teenagers
insisting on multi GB downloads which lead to a cap!

[Laurence Hansen]

On 13/02/2013 12:00, Cliff Frisby wrote:

>
> It's seems plausible that it is a proper estimate of what you could get.
> There are graphs around that indicate that the ADSL2+ speed multiplier
> increases as distance as distance from exchange decreases. In other words,
> the rich get disproportionately richer, if wealth was measured by ADSL
> speed.
>
> It poor blighters like me that only get a tiny benefit from ADSL2+, even
> though we are right down in the 3-4 Mb/s range.
>
> See the graph here:
> http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3525-will-broadband-providers-ever-reach-agreement-on-advertising-terms.html
>
>

Thanks Cliff, looks from the graph that 14.5 is about right. I suppose I
was hoping that it meant actual download speed as they've changed the
lingo from 'up to' but I'm wishing for the moon aren't I. In fact 14.5
Mbps is the sync speed and data throughput is governed more by network
congestion/traffic management than anything else, so my 2-3Mbps could
stay the same or even get worse! Is there a way of telling without
trying it to see?

I'm wary of a: signing up for a 2 year contract with an ISP that has
been looking pretty flaky lately, and b: ending up with a worse service
than before. I can't imagine the 'helpdesk' have improved much since I
last vowed never to ring them again a couple of years ago.

[Laurence Hansen]

Yes I noticed that 'From £13' became '£18.50' for Business Lite+ and
'From £17' became '£19' for Business Unlimited once I'd put my number
in. I guess they are reselling BT stuff for these prices, while using
their own kit => lower prices.

At 50p + VAT difference I'll be thinking about Business Unlimited then.

Sorry don't know the answer to your qs, if it matters to you I should
get it in writing before you pay up!

[Peter Ceresole]

John <jo...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >Before I give Sales a call I have 2 quick questions. Does anyone know
> >if Demon Business Lite+:
> >
> >1) includes access to Newsgroups?
> >
> >2) includes "free" webhosting, like Homepages?
> >
> Not good to follow up my own post I know, but just looked at Demon
> Business Unlimited and it is only 50 pence a month dearer. So, same 2
> questions apply, as again they are not mentioned.

I have Biz Unlimited and it's curiously nice not to have to think about
any download limits.

Your questions:

1) Does that matter? There are plenty of free news servers out there- I
pay ten Euros *a year* for News.individual.net- all simply accessible.

2) I had a Demon hosted site when I was on HomeOffice, and it's still
there, no change.

One of the really nice features is the Business telephone hekpline. I
never had much trouble with the old helpline, but the business version
(business hours only) is very clued up and helpful, and call back when
they say they will.
--
Peter

[Rex]

On 13/02/2013 14:29, John wrote:

>>
>> 1) includes access to Newsgroups?

>>Demon
> Business Unlimited and it is only 50 pence a month dearer. So, same 2
> questions apply, as again they are not mentioned.

You can definitely get Usenet access with Business Unlimited; however
it's not mentioned and it's not supported ... or even widely understood

I actually asked during the conversation / order process ... "what's
usenet" ... "it'll cost extra" ...

I explained ... and explained that I didn't pay extra for it on Home
Office 8000 and already had it from Demon; ... so I get it ... and it
doesn't cost "extra"

:-)

hopefully you can achieve the same "deal"

[Rex]

On 13/02/2013 16:41, Peter Ceresole wrote:

> One of the really nice features is the Business telephone hekpline. I
> never had much trouble with the old helpline, but the business version
> (business hours only) is very clued up and helpful, and call back when
> they say they will.
>

+1

--
Rex M F Smith

[John Hall]

In article <ObOSs.23002$Ls2....@fx06.fr7>,

Laurence Hansen <nos...@rdg.ac.uk> writes:
>On 13/02/2013 11:14, John Hall wrote:
>> I've just made that upgrade myself - see the "Demon service speed"
>> thread. I think that 14.5 is an "up to". I think the availabilty checker
>> quoted 17MB for me, which I took with a pinch of salt. In the event, my
>> first post-upgrade speed test showed an increase from 3.04 to 5.61,
>> still well worth having. But my main reason for upgrading was that
>> BusinessLite+ is a bit cheaper than HomeOffice8000.
>>
>
>Thanks John, that's useful. Could I ask what your sync speed was
>before the upgrade?

If that is what they now call the IP Profile for the line, then it was
3.5Mbps.

>
>Yes it is a bit cheaper, also has no download restrictions between
>2300 and 0900 so could be useful for those households with
>teenagers insisting on multi GB downloads which lead to a cap!
>

Not a problem for me. I don't download many GB of stuff.

[Joe]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:15:18 +0000
John <jo...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:


>
> 1) includes access to Newsgroups?
>

Yes.

> 2) includes "free" webhosting, like Homepages?

Don't know for sure, but probably not.

>
> Neither of these is mentioned in the "full feature list"
>

I asked specifically about newsgroups before signing up.

--
Joe

[Ian DALGLEISH]

>
> Before I give Sales a call I have 2 quick questions. Does anyone know
> if Demon Business Lite+:
>
> 1) includes access to Newsgroups?
>
> 2) includes "free" webhosting, like Homepages?

I rang Demon this morning (Wednesday 13 February) and was told that I
would lose my 20 MB "free" web space if I moved from Home Office 8000
to Business Lite+

Ian
====================================
Ian Dalgleish

Ardrossan Academy Website
http://www.ardacad.co.uk/

Chemistry Notes, Mac Apps etc
http://www.iandalgleish.co.uk/

Largs Website
http://www.methyl.demon.co.uk/Largs/largs.shtml
====================================

[John Hall]

In article <MsNhvKDW...@nospam.demon.co.uk>,

John <jo...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>My exchange does not have C&W LLU (according to SamKnows)
>so I am guessing that Demon now just re-sell the BT service

That's right. Apparently they got up to 68% coverage (I'm not sure if
that's of UK exchanges or of customers) with C&W LLU. Then there seemed
to be a hiatus lasting a year or two, Now they have resumed extending
their coverage, but piggy-backing off BT. IIRC, they were supposed to be
up to 75% by the end of January, when there was supposed to be an
announcement of the new exchanges that hasn't materialised, and up to
90% by the end of the year. (Info from a post by a Demon staffer to a
thread on their web forum.)

> (is there anything left that Demon actually do themselves?).

Good question.

> This may mean that others on an 8000 service may find that they
>can upgrade if their exchange has been upgraded to 21CN.

Yep. If they can't yet, then they should be able to in the near future.

>
>However I do note that on the home page for Business Lite+ it says
>"from �13.00 per month (excl VAT). As soon as I enter my
>telephone number it shoots up to �18.50 per month for a 24 month
>contract (less 5% if you pay annually).

For me too.

> So is C&W LLU cheaper than using BT?

Dunno. Apparently Demon claim that they the HomeOffice8000 service isn't
being made available for new customers, because it had become too
expensive for them to provide. Which presumably
means that on any exchanges where Demon can't offer ADSL2+ they won't be
taking on any new customers, since BusinessLite+ and the other variant
whose name escapes me aren't available on basic ADSL exchanges.

>
>Before I give Sales a call I have 2 quick questions. Does anyone
>know if Demon Business Lite+:
>
>1) includes access to Newsgroups?
>
>2) includes "free" webhosting, like Homepages?

As far as I can see, it doesn't change the available services from those
that were available with HomeOffice8000. So those two services /are/
included.

[John Hall]

In article <2013021319513650219-igd@methyldemoncouk>,

Ian DALGLEISH <i...@methyl.demon.co.uk> writes:
>I rang Demon this morning (Wednesday 13 February) and was told
>that I would lose my 20 MB "free" web space if I moved from Home
>Office 8000 to Business Lite+

Interesting. Having made my own move yesterday, for the moment my Demon
webpages are still there. I have a mirror elsewhere, so it won't be a
problem for me if they disappear at some point.

[John Hall]

In article <1ky8ojt.drpke41oryh92N%pe...@cara.demon.co.uk>,

Peter Ceresole <pe...@cara.demon.co.uk> writes:
>1) Does that matter? There are plenty of free news servers out there- I
>pay ten Euros *a year* for News.individual.net- all simply accessible.

And NIN is a lot more reliable than Demon's outsourced server, as well
as having excellent spam filtering.

[David Rance]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 Ian DALGLEISH wrote:

>> Before I give Sales a call I have 2 quick questions. Does anyone
>>know if Demon Business Lite+:
>> 1) includes access to Newsgroups?
>> 2) includes "free" webhosting, like Homepages?
>
>I rang Demon this morning (Wednesday 13 February) and was told that I
>would lose my 20 MB "free" web space if I moved from Home Office 8000
>to Business Lite+

I transferred to Business Lite+ several months ago and I've still got my
free web space. I suspect the person you spoke to didn't know the answer
and just said no.

[Cliff Frisby]

I've just started a completely fresh Business account, and I had assumed
that there would be no homepages, and was going to suggest that yours only
remained in existence as a side (non-)effect of having ported your existing
hostname.

But there *is* something in respect of my new 'hostname': the www subdomain
is provisioned in DNS, and resolves to the homepages server (albeit in a
different way to the my HomeOffice equivalent).

Loading up the 'home page' gives a 'Page not Found', different to the
default page of my HomeOffice equivalent, but certainly more than the
expected DNS you obviously get by substituting a completely
fictitious 'hostname'.

Tried it also with the hostname of Chloe's account, and its the just the
same.

Maybe its indicates something sitting there waiting to be paid for if
required?

I could try logging in to the ftp server, but I don't know what the initial
password would be.

[Cliff Frisby]

It doesn't mention anything about the Exchange-based email hosting either,
as far as I can see.

It does say "Twelve POP3 mailboxes", whatever that implies. I certainly
don't know where I would find them, not that I especially want to.

In contrast, I imagine, to most in this group, I have a day-old Business
Unlimited service up and running which has *not* been ported over from an
old HomeOffice service. So I may be able to offer evidence that certain
aspects of your ported accounts are actually side-effects of the porting
process.

I assume that following a port to Business, your MX records still point
(assuming migration to Exchange) to
mx1.demon.co.uk
mx2.demon.co.uk
(or variants thereof for the SPF refuseniks)

Whereas I see that mine (and I hadn't thought to check them before now)
point to
punt-1.mail.demon.net
punt-2.mail.demon.net

What do these chaps do? Could they possibly be store/forward machines which
will attempt to deliver mail to me by SMTP? You know, like the old punts in
the old dial-up days!!! Oh joy! Perhaps I will start handing out email
addresses based on my Demon hostname again. (Then again, perhaps not.)

[Ian DALGLEISH]

>
> Interesting. Having made my own move yesterday, for the moment my Demon
> webpages are still there. I have a mirror elsewhere, so it won't be a
> problem for me if they disappear at some point.

Were you given a new login and password to enter into the router ?
Are there any other changes which need to be made to router settings ?

Ian

==========================
Ian Dalgleish

Ardrossan Academy Website
http://www.ardacad.co.uk/

Chemistry Notes, Mac Apps etc
http://www.iandalgleish.co.uk/

Largs Website

http://www.mylargs.com
==========================

[John Hall]

In article <2013021409314425109-igd@methyldemoncouk>,

Ian DALGLEISH <i...@methyl.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> Interesting. Having made my own move yesterday, for the
>>moment my Demon
>> webpages are still there. I have a mirror elsewhere, so it won't be a
>> problem for me if they disappear at some point.
>
>Were you given a new login and password to enter into the router ?

You mean for connecting to Demon? In the email I got I was provided
among other things with details for login (which remained as
jhall@demon.a) and password. Since I hadn't changed my password from the
one that Demon set up for me when first moving to broadband the new one
was the same as the old. Presumably if I /had/ changed it at some point,
before first connecting I would have needed to change it back in my
router settings.

>Are there any other changes which need to be made to router settings ?

There weren't for me. My router automagically detected the change to
ADSL2+, but I did reboot it afterwards as Demon advise.

[John Hall]

In article <BIUSs.40536$o%2.1...@fx19.fr7>,

Cliff Frisby <spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Whereas I see that mine (and I hadn't thought to check them before now)
>point to
>punt-1.mail.demon.net
>punt-2.mail.demon.net
>
>What do these chaps do? Could they possibly be store/forward machines which
>will attempt to deliver mail to me by SMTP?

My memory could easily be faulty, but I /think/ those are the equivalent
machines to mx-1 and mx-2 for those who haven't been migrated yet.

[Cliff Frisby]

John Hall wrote:

> In article <BIUSs.40536$o%2.1...@fx19.fr7>,
> Cliff Frisby <spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>Whereas I see that mine (and I hadn't thought to check them before now)
>>point to
>>punt-1.mail.demon.net
>>punt-2.mail.demon.net
>>
>>What do these chaps do? Could they possibly be store/forward machines
>>which will attempt to deliver mail to me by SMTP?
>
> My memory could easily be faulty, but I /think/ those are the equivalent
> machines to mx-1 and mx-2 for those who haven't been migrated yet.

Hmm, the names *are* similar, I'll grant you, but I'm sure they were
different. (Any un-mailmigrated reader here to confirm the names?)

Also, I'd be pretty amazed if they were configuring brand new Business
accounts to use the old mail system.

[Cliff Frisby]

Actually, John, having perused Demon's mail migration literature, it looks
as though you are spot on.

That's weird though. And I *am* 'pretty amazed'.

[John]

In message <9wQSs.47020$HZ2....@fx21.fr7>, Rex
<use...@gehena.demon.co.uk> writes

>
>You can definitely get Usenet access with Business Unlimited; however
>it's not mentioned and it's not supported ... or even widely understood
>
>I actually asked during the conversation / order process ... "what's
>usenet" ... "it'll cost extra" ...
>
> I explained ... and explained that I didn't pay extra for it on
>Home Office 8000 and already had it from Demon; ... so I get it ... and
>it doesn't cost "extra"
>
> :-)
>
> hopefully you can achieve the same "deal"

Many thanks to all of you with your replies. To summarise it appears
that if you are a new Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited customer you
will probably not get access to Usenet or 20MB of "free" Hompages.

However, if you upgrade from HomeOffice8000 you might keep your
Homepages and you can negotiate access to Usenet.

So time to upgrade I think.

On issue - I appear to have lost my Homepages when I moved and did a
"terminate and re-provide". Like Cliff I am getting a "Page not Found".
I am trying to resolve this with the Helpdesk before I contact Sales.


--
John

[John]

In message <HMNh9FSw...@david.rance.org.uk>, David Rance
<david...@invalid.invalid> writes

It appears that I "lost " my Homepages when I moved last September and
went onto HomeOffice8000. Hoping to get them back before I upgrade, I
contacted the Helpdesk and got this reply:

"After the cease and re provide of your Home Office broadband the
homepages service was not enabled as we have now withdrawn the web
hosting services (free and paid) for newly activated packages.

Therefore we will be unable to allot the Homepages packages for you. We
apologise for the inconvenience caused."

No notification. Just happened. I am not happy and am letting Demon
know that!
--
John

[Cliff Frisby]

John wrote:
<snip>

>
> Many thanks to all of you with your replies. To summarise it appears
> that if you are a new Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited customer you
> will probably not get access to Usenet or 20MB of "free" Hompages.
>

Whilst obviously I'm not a new customer, I do seem to have access to the
newsserver via my new (not upgraded from HomeOffice) Business Unlimited
service, and didn't need to specially ask for it.

<snip>

[Cliff Frisby]

Are you saying there was no way of moving premises without losing the
homepages feature.

If a 'cease and re-provide' is the standard procedure for a move of
premises, and you had no choice about moving to HomeOffice 8000, it does
seem wrong that you should have lost any services, even if they were
deprecated.

And given that there are customers retaining their homepages even after a
transfer to Business whatever, I think they ought to reinstate yours.

[John]

In message <IP4Ts.55369$X84....@fx26.fr7>, Cliff Frisby
<spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> writes

>> It appears that I "lost " my Homepages when I moved last September and
>> went onto HomeOffice8000. Hoping to get them back before I upgrade, I
>> contacted the Helpdesk and got this reply:
>>
>> "After the cease and re provide of your Home Office broadband the
>> homepages service was not enabled as we have now withdrawn the web
>> hosting services (free and paid) for newly activated packages.
>>
>> Therefore we will be unable to allot the Homepages packages for you. We
>> apologise for the inconvenience caused."
>>
>> No notification. Just happened. I am not happy and am letting Demon
>> know that!
>
>Are you saying there was no way of moving premises without losing the
>homepages feature.

Apparently so, although this was not explained at the time.

>
>If a 'cease and re-provide' is the standard procedure for a move of
>premises, and you had no choice about moving to HomeOffice 8000, it does
>seem wrong that you should have lost any services, even if they were
>deprecated.

Cease and re-provide is indeed the standard way to keep your Demon
account when you move premises. At the time only 8Mbps services were
available from Demon on the new exchange (BT had up to 16 Mbps at that
time). Business Lite+ and Business Unlimited are now available,
although there was no notification.
--
John

[Joe]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:51:50 +0000
John <jo...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Many thanks to all of you with your replies. To summarise it appears
> that if you are a new Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited customer
> you will probably not get access to Usenet or 20MB of "free" Hompages.
>
> However, if you upgrade from HomeOffice8000 you might keep your
> Homepages and you can negotiate access to Usenet.
>

Q: 'There is no mention of Usenet on the website. Is a Usenet server
available on this service? I make fairly heavy use of it, and would
need to make alternative provision if it is not available through
Demon. This may well eliminate any cost saving. '

A: 'Yes, the Usenet service will still run in conjunction with the Demon
Business Lite+ service.'

I see the implication as being that Usenet is available to all Business
Lite+ users, new and old, but a more cynical person might indeed see it
as 'make sure you give this chap access to the Usenet servers since I
told him in writing he'd have it'.

--
Joe

[pe...@nospam.demon.co.uk]

They *might* be the same (it's a while since I was migrated) but a
quick trawl though old email seems to show that email was received
from punt3 (note the lack of hyphen). This on a TAM SDU account,
where mail was delivered by SMTP rather than the current apology for
POP3.

Pete
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth.
Doubt those who find it. - André Gide

[Cliff Frisby]

Yes, I concur regarding the punt-3/punt3 discrepancy in old email headers.

But aside from that, I've conceded now (see earlier posting) that John H.
must be right about punt-1 and punt-2 being the MX for the old email
system, based purely on this:
http://help.demon.net/help-articles/demon-mail-migration-frequently-asked-questions/#newmxrecords

And just to be sure, I have, from my legacy HomeOffice connection, sent an
email to arbi...@mynewhostname.demon.co.uk, and, sure enough, I can now do
(from my old HomeOffice connection):

$ finger mynewh...@post.demon.co.uk
There is 1 message waiting on punt-3.mail.demon.net for
mynewhostname.demon.co.uk

(Oddly enough, if I issue the exact same command from a box attached to the
Business Unlimited service, I get no text returned at all -- figure that
one out.)

I must admit, I never anticipated quite so much nostalgia value from a
freshly-baked Business account! I wonder if I will shortly be notified of
an impending migration? (Perhaps I should resuscitate fetchmail, for fear
of missing my migration email to postmaster@. It all seems faintly
surreal.)

Or, perhaps this is the way it *should* be set-up on a multi-IP Business
service. Perhaps punt-3 is periodically attempting to deliver that email by
SMTP. I have no easy way of telling at the moment.

[Laurence Hansen]

"Rex" <use...@gehena.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:WwQSs.47021$HZ2....@fx21.fr7...

Well that would be a worthwhile improvement on it's own!

--
Laurence

[John]

In message <gZ7JheDYu$GRF...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>, John Hall
<nospam...@jhall.co.uk> writes

>In article <2013021319513650219-igd@methyldemoncouk>,
> Ian DALGLEISH <i...@methyl.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>I rang Demon this morning (Wednesday 13 February) and was told
>>that I would lose my 20 MB "free" web space if I moved from Home
>>Office 8000 to Business Lite+
>
>Interesting. Having made my own move yesterday, for the moment my Demon
>webpages are still there. I have a mirror elsewhere, so it won't be a
>problem for me if they disappear at some point.

I have just had a longish conversation with Customer Services.
Apparently webhosting, both paid for and "free" i.e. Homepages, were
withdrawn "about a year ago". This meant that they were not bundled for
new customers on any service, including HomeOffice 8000. However,
existing customers retained their Homepages.

If you make virtually any change to your account, e.g. cease and
re-provide or upgrade to another package, you should lose your Homepages
as the automated process is programmed to remove them. I pointed out
that this had not always happened and the service agent was not able to
explain why this was the case, but it should not have happened. They
now have a script explaining that it will be lost on upgrade.

He also implied that Homepages would be withdrawn for existing customers
in the future (no timescale available). I asked if there was to be a
replacement for simple hosting, but there are no current plans.



--
John

[Ian DALGLEISH]

>
> He also implied that Homepages would be withdrawn for existing
> customers in the future (no timescale available). I asked if there was
> to be a replacement for simple hosting, but there are no current plans.

I moved my Demon homepages to JustHost (the Largs site below) and
intend to move from HomeOffice 8000 to Business Lite+ very soon.
JustHost are charging £176 for 4 years hosting. They are also much more
reliable for web hosting than Demon.

Ian.


--

==========================
Ian Dalgleish

Ardrossan Academy Website
http://www.ardacad.co.uk/

Chemistry Notes, Mac Apps etc
http://www.iandalgleish.co.uk/

Largs Website

http://www.mylargs.com
==========================

[Ian Jackson]

In message <0dLSs.26536$c57....@fx10.fr7>, Cliff Frisby
<spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> writes

>Laurence Hansen wrote:
>
>> I've been on Home Office 8000 for ages now, no chance of an upgrade as
>> the local exchange was not enabled for ADSL2+. Well I've just looked on
>> Demon's website and it seems that ADSL2+ is now available to me.
>>
>> Currently my router synchs at 7.6 or thereabouts, but speedtests
>> inevitably fall in the 2-3 Mbps range. I am now told that if I move to
>> Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited that "You will get an estimated
>> speed of 14.50 Mbps...on this telephone number."
>>

>> Does this mean what it says, or is it equivalent to 'up to' - ie I'm
>> unlikely to see anything like that in terms of data throughput?
>>
>
>It's seems plausible that it is a proper estimate of what you could get.
>There are graphs around that indicate that the ADSL2+ speed multiplier
>increases as distance as distance from exchange decreases. In other words,
>the rich get disproportionately richer, if wealth was measured by ADSL
>speed.
>
>It poor blighters like me that only get a tiny benefit from ADSL2+, even
>though we are right down in the 3-4 Mb/s range.
>
>See the graph here:
>http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3525-will-broadband-providers-ever-re
>ach-agreement-on-advertising-terms.html
>
At 4 or 5 km from the exchange, my upgrade from ADSL to ADSL2+ didn't
seem make a scrap of difference to the downstream (around 1.7Mb/s), but
the upstream went from 350 to 750kb/s (not that that's any great help).
--
Ian

[Laurence Hansen]

On 24/02/2013 22:38, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <0dLSs.26536$c57....@fx10.fr7>, Cliff Frisby

> At 4 or 5 km from the exchange, my upgrade from ADSL to ADSL2+ didn't
> seem make a scrap of difference to the downstream (around 1.7Mb/s), but
> the upstream went from 350 to 750kb/s (not that that's any great help).

I'm 1.1km from the exchange.

After a long chat with Customer Services, Sales and Tech Support, I've
been told that I should hope to get 6-7 Mbps throughput, and I've signed
up for Business Unlimited. Even if there is no speed increase I shall
benefit from being genuinely unlimited (so I'm told) as my kids will no
longer be able to exceed the limit!

Changeover due this Weds, I already have the new router. I have to say
I'm just a bit excited to see if the new set up is any good. I might be
able to watch streamed video at half-decent quality, who knows!

[Ian DALGLEISH]

> In the email I got I was provided
> among other things with details for login (which remained as
> jhall@demon.a) and password. Since I hadn't changed my password from the
> one that Demon set up for me when first moving to broadband the new one
> was the same as the old. Presumably if I /had/ changed it at some point,
> before first connecting I would have needed to change it back in my
> router settings.
>
>> Are there any other changes which need to be made to router settings ?
>
> There weren't for me. My router automagically detected the change to
> ADSL2+, but I did reboot it afterwards as Demon advise.

My new router arrives tomorrow (26 February) and my upgrade from
HomeOffice 8000 to Business Unlimited will be done on 5 March.

I phoned Demon Business Support to clarify a few things. Basically the
router will arrive preconfigured. The login and password will be
exactly the same as they were for HomeOffice 8000. The router will,
however, contain the original password supplied by Demon when my
HomeOffice account was set up. Since I changed this to a new password,
I will also need to change it again to the SAME new password.

He said that I can start using the new router from tomorrow and that
all that will happen on 5 March is that my service will go down for
about 15 minutes then come back up again, after I reboot, at a faster
speed.

Does anyone else have any experience of this ?

Ian.

[John Hall]

In article <2013022519202330004-igd@methyldemoncouk>,

Ian DALGLEISH <i...@methyl.demon.co.uk> writes:
>He said that I can start using the new router from tomorrow and
>that all that will happen on 5 March is that my service will go
>down for about 15 minutes then come back up again, after I
>reboot, at a faster speed.
>
>Does anyone else have any experience of this ?

That's pretty much what happened withme, though in practice the service
was down for at most 5 minutes. Since then, I've lost the connection for
a minute or two once each day, presumably as BRAS tries to optimise all
the ADSL2+ parameters.

[John Hall]

In article <Q+GnBVFQ...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>,

John Hall <nospam...@jhall.co.uk> writes:
>In article <2013022519202330004-igd@methyldemoncouk>,
> Ian DALGLEISH <i...@methyl.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>He said that I can start using the new router from tomorrow and
>>that all that will happen on 5 March is that my service will go
>>down for about 15 minutes then come back up again, after I
>>reboot, at a faster speed.
>>
>>Does anyone else have any experience of this ?
>
>That's pretty much what happened withme, though in practice the service
>was down for at most 5 minutes. Since then, I've lost the connection for
>a minute or two once each day, presumably as BRAS tries to optimise all
>the ADSL2+ parameters.

A bit of supplementary info:

Here's what happened as shown by f8lure on the day of my upgrade (12th
Feb):

http://f8lure.mouselike.org/archived_graphs/80.177.217.234_day12.png

Interestingly enough the latency as seen by the f8lure machine pinging
my machine actually went up slightly, even though my connection speed as
shown by BT Speedtester had roughly doubled.

For comparison, here's the plot for yesterday (24th):

http://f8lure.mouselike.org/archived_graphs/80.177.217.234_day24.png

[metric...@yahoo.com]

Beware: ADSL2+ is usually further from the headline speed than 'normal' ADSL.


***************************
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/research/telecoms-research/bbspeeds2011/response-to-asa.pdf

Average speeds as a proportion of headline speeds ...
42% - ADSL 'up to 8 Mbit/s'
29% - ADSL2+ 'up to 20/24 Mbit/s'

It is also worth noting that only a minority of ADSL2+ customers receive speeds of over 6Mbit/s.

***************************

[John Hall]

In article <1af91aaf-d175-4ad5...@googlegroups.com>,

Indeed. The speed that I'm getting has gone up from around 3 Mbs to
around 6 Mbs, when Demon's availability checker suggested up to 17Mbs.
So my proportion of the theoretical maximum is roughly the same as
before, but I'm reasonably happy that the speed I'm getting has roughly
doubled.

[Simon Turner]

On Monday, in article
<YOKlNqGj...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>

nospam...@jhall.co.uk "John Hall" wrote:

> Here's what happened as shown by f8lure on the day of my upgrade (12th
> Feb):
>
> http://f8lure.mouselike.org/archived_graphs/80.177.217.234_day12.png
>
> Interestingly enough the latency as seen by the f8lure machine pinging
> my machine actually went up slightly, even though my connection speed as
> shown by BT Speedtester had roughly doubled.

Perhaps interleaving was turned on during the upgrade? (It typically
causes a significant increase in latency but gives greater connection
stability.)

If so, I'm surprised that it was turned on immediately; IME upgrades
usually start with it off, then it gets turned on later if your line
resyncs too often. But all my experience is with BT-provisioned ADSL
rather than C&W, so it may be worthless in this context!

--
Simon Turner DoD #0461
si...@twoplaces.co.uk
Trust me -- I know what I'm doing! -- Sledge Hammer

[John Hall]

In article <20130227.09...@twoplaces.co.uk>,

Simon Turner <si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writes:
>On Monday, in article
> <YOKlNqGj...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>
> nospam...@jhall.co.uk "John Hall" wrote:
>
>> Here's what happened as shown by f8lure on the day of my upgrade (12th
>> Feb):
>>
>> http://f8lure.mouselike.org/archived_graphs/80.177.217.234_day12.png
>>
>> Interestingly enough the latency as seen by the f8lure machine pinging
>> my machine actually went up slightly, even though my connection speed as
>> shown by BT Speedtester had roughly doubled.
>
>Perhaps interleaving was turned on during the upgrade? (It typically
>causes a significant increase in latency but gives greater connection
>stability.)
>
>If so, I'm surprised that it was turned on immediately; IME upgrades
>usually start with it off, then it gets turned on later if your line
>resyncs too often. But all my experience is with BT-provisioned ADSL
>rather than C&W, so it may be worthless in this context!
>

Demon's newly-enabled ADSL2+ exchanges are now "piggy-backed" off BT
rather than having been upgraded by C&W, so your experience may well be
relevant.

[Ian DALGLEISH]

> That's pretty much what happened withme

I got my new Technicolor router this morning (Wednesday).
In the ADSL settings I changed the password to the one I'm currently
using but I didn't expect to have to change the username as well - it
had been preconfigured to 'admin' !! Once I entered the correct ADSL
login, given in the letter enclosed with the router and the one I'm
currently using anyway, the router connected to the internet and
everything seems to be working fine. I hope it continues to work when
my service goes '2+' on 5 March.

[Cliff Frisby]

Ian DALGLEISH wrote:

>> That's pretty much what happened withme
> I got my new Technicolor router this morning (Wednesday).
> In the ADSL settings I changed the password to the one I'm currently
> using but I didn't expect to have to change the username as well - it
> had been preconfigured to 'admin' !!

To be clear, are you saying that they had set the PPP login username
to 'admin'? Mine had the router access username set as admin by default,
but the PPP/ADSL login name was correct (albeit that I think the whole
thing was mistakenly configured for a single-IP NAT service). Perhaps
someone was half asleep when configuring yours.

[Ian DALGLEISH]

>
> To be clear, are you saying that they had set the PPP login username
> to 'admin'? Mine had the router access username set as admin by default,
> but the PPP/ADSL login name was correct (albeit that I think the whole
> thing was mistakenly configured for a single-IP NAT service). Perhaps
> someone was half asleep when configuring yours.

That's correct.

The username required to access the router at 192.168.254.254 was set
to 'admin'.
That's fine - I left it set as 'admin'.

However, the PPP/ADSL login name, required to get the router to access
the net, had also been set to 'admin' !!!

[Phil Masters]

I've just had an e-mail from Demon, apparently saying that I should
now be able to get ADSL2+ and certainly encouraging me to change to a
service which includes that. However, when I go off to the relevant
Web pages and enter my 'phone number into the checker, it tells me
that ADSL2+ isn't available here yet. Hey ho.

The BT.com Web site doesn't mention ADSL2+ that I can see, but says
that I should be able to get a BT Infinity fibre-based service on my
number. Hmm.

(And I'm not very likely to change my Demon service unless I can keep
my web pages...)
--
Phil Masters
* http://www.philm.demon.co.uk *
* http://philmasters.blogspot.com/ *

[JC Morrice]

In article <5ma9j8t2rhh8imi4k...@4ax.com>, Phil Masters
<ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> writes

>I've just had an e-mail from Demon, apparently saying that I should now
>be able to get ADSL2+ and certainly encouraging me to change to a
>service which includes that.

........ etc

Also received here. Laughingly:

"That means you can send and receive large files more quickly",.....

Yeah, but the bastards have unilaterally crippled the email system so
that you can only send small files now of circa 20 MB; and that includes
unstated overheads...... and the evidence from posters is that it does
not even appear to be the full 20 MB.

With the joke Homepage size, I wonder if there is any point to this
offer?


--
JC Morrice
jo...@pentode.demon.co.uk

[Ian]

In message <5ma9j8t2rhh8imi4k...@4ax.com>, Phil Masters
<ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> writes

>I've just had an e-mail from Demon, apparently saying that I should
>now be able to get ADSL2+ and certainly encouraging me to change to a
>service which includes that. However, when I go off to the relevant
>Web pages and enter my 'phone number into the checker, it tells me
>that ADSL2+ isn't available here yet. Hey ho.
>
>The BT.com Web site doesn't mention ADSL2+ that I can see, but says
>that I should be able to get a BT Infinity fibre-based service on my
>number. Hmm.
>
>(And I'm not very likely to change my Demon service unless I can keep
>my web pages...)

Enter your exchange name here, and you might find your answer.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search
--
Ian

[Andy]

In message <exTXE$BqDLN...@nospam.demon.co.uk>, Ian
<ne...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
[]

>Enter your exchange name here, and you might find your answer.
>
>http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

Did. It says this - which if any is Demon?

The following services are available in your location:

BT Wholesale ADSL
BT Wholesale ADSL Max
BT Wholesale WBC (21CN)
BT FTTC
TalkTalk (CPW) LLU
Sky Broadband / Easynet LLU

--
Andy Taylor [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society].
Visit <URL:http://www.austrianphilately.com>

[Chris S]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 15:10:13 +0000, Andy <an...@kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <exTXE$BqDLN...@nospam.demon.co.uk>, Ian
><ne...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
>[]
>>Enter your exchange name here, and you might find your answer.
>>
>>http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search
>
>Did. It says this - which if any is Demon?
>
>The following services are available in your location:
>
>BT Wholesale ADSL
>BT Wholesale ADSL Max
>BT Wholesale WBC (21CN)
>BT FTTC
>TalkTalk (CPW) LLU
>Sky Broadband / Easynet LLU

Until recently Demon's 21CN products would have been available via
exchanges with a C&W LLU presence. They have now increased their
coverage by 'buyiing' services from BT and that would be BT Wholesale
WBC (21CN) on your list. However, Demon are charging more for the same
product if it is via a BT LLU than it would be if via a C&W LLU.

Chris

[Chris S]

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 16:00:05 +0000, Chris S <myr9g...@snkmail.com>
wrote:

Strictly speaking I shouldn't have described the BT Wholesale WBC
(21CN) service as local loop unbundled (LLU); 'unbundled' means opened
up to suppliers other than BT of course.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 14:12:13 +0000, Phil Masters
<ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I've just had an e-mail from Demon, apparently saying that I should
>now be able to get ADSL2+ and certainly encouraging me to change to a
>service which includes that. However, when I go off to the relevant
>Web pages and enter my 'phone number into the checker, it tells me
>that ADSL2+ isn't available here yet. Hey ho.
>
>The BT.com Web site doesn't mention ADSL2+ that I can see, but says
>that I should be able to get a BT Infinity fibre-based service on my
>number. Hmm.
>

The service I get from BT is faster than I was getting with Demon
ADSL2+. BT fibre is available for my location and I can see the FTTC
cabinet from my window so only the last few yards will have to be
copper. The upgrade is �25 with no increase in monthly charge. The
only thing holding me back is the fact that the hub in my house would
need to be changed and BT insist that their engineer does the job.
They won't just send me a box so I can to do it myself.

Steve

--
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com

[Phil Masters]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:34:18 +0000, Ian <ne...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>Enter your exchange name here, and you might find your answer.
>
>http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

Okay, did that. No mention anywhere on the ensuing page of ADSL2+ as
such that I can see; ADSL "Enabled"; 21CN WBC "Not available"; under
LLU operator presence, C&W: "Not available".

So I gather that, Demon's e-mail notwithstanding, I'm not getting any
ADSL2+ for the time being.

[Cliff Frisby]

Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

<snipped>

> The only thing holding me back is the fact that the hub in my house would
> need to be changed and BT insist that their engineer does the job.
> They won't just send me a box so I can to do it myself.
>

But can you use your own box if you source it yourself? (In other words, is
there a 'wires only' option?)

[Steve Rogerson]

On 04/03/13 14:12, Phil Masters wrote:
> I've just had an e-mail from Demon, apparently saying that I should
> now be able to get ADSL2+ and certainly encouraging me to change to a
> service which includes that. However, when I go off to the relevant
> Web pages and enter my 'phone number into the checker, it tells me
> that ADSL2+ isn't available here yet. Hey ho.
>

Same here. When I was going through the motions a "would you like to chat"
thing came up and I took the opportunity to mention this. Actually I was
mostly miffed by the fact that I was having to pay more for a worse service,
but anyway after a long chat with some poor guy, it was decided that the
problem was that the page that did the checking had an intermittent problem
and that I should try again in a day or so. I asked him to send me an email
when the service was fixed and this was agreed.

The next day I got a call from Demon saying the problem was fixed and I should
try again. It wasn't fixed. The poor lady seemed a bit embarrassed. I got
another call today which I missed, but there was an answer phone message
saying it was fixed. It wasn't.

Actually I was somewhat surprised to have been offered the upgrade as there
are no ADSL2+ offerings at my exchange. Frankly I think the checker is working
correctly and the problem is that I should never have been offered the upgrade
in the first place.

> The BT.com Web site doesn't mention ADSL2+ that I can see, but says
> that I should be able to get a BT Infinity fibre-based service on my
> number. Hmm.
>

BT are offering between .5 and 2.5M for my phone - and no BT Infinity :-( I
can only get 2M if interleaving is turned off. I had to give up on that when I
had 70+ line drops on one day.


Steve

[Phil Masters]

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 18:05:36 +0000, Steve Rogerson
<st...@nemodtcwey.co.uk> wrote:
>Actually I was somewhat surprised to have been offered the upgrade as there
>are no ADSL2+ offerings at my exchange. Frankly I think the checker is working
>correctly and the problem is that I should never have been offered the upgrade
>in the first place.

Looks the same here.

[Chris S]

I could be wrong but I thought the OP was talking about a FTTC
installation. That requires a faceplate change and testing by a BT
engineer.

http://www.thebmwz3.co.uk/article.php?story=20120419102835860
or
http://preview.tinyurl.com/buvf844

Chris S

[news]

Notwithstanding the higher charges from exchanges without C&W LLU, you
may find (depending on your existing package) that the new offering is
cheaper than you already have. I have just taken the unlimited 2 yr
contract which works out at ~£18/month (when including the annual
payment discount) compared with my old Home Office rate of ~£23.50/month.

Download is now unlimited (cf 60G)
Download speed is now ~9.5Mb (cf 6.5Mb)
and upload speed is ~0.9Mb (cf 0.4Mb)

New system has only been running 2 days so don't know if its fully
stabilised yet, but it seems I get higher download speed, higher upload
speed, bigger download allowance and (the main reason I stick with demon
- the same e-mail addy) all for less money, and this on an exchange that
uses BT Wholesale rather than C&W LLU. So I'm happy.

There has been a discussion on here about whether or not home-pages
disappear with the upgrade - well mine haven't yet....


--
Chris

[John Hall]

In article <tvl9j89d8lnpljsee...@4ax.com>,

Phil Masters <ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> writes:
>On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:34:18 +0000, Ian <ne...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>>Enter your exchange name here, and you might find your answer.
>>
>>http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search
>
>Okay, did that. No mention anywhere on the ensuing page of ADSL2+ as
>such that I can see; ADSL "Enabled"; 21CN WBC "Not available"; under
>LLU operator presence, C&W: "Not available".
>
>So I gather that, Demon's e-mail notwithstanding, I'm not getting any
>ADSL2+ for the time being.
>

You can find the exchanges where Demon plan to have ADSL2+ enabled
within the next few months (as well as those recently enabled) in this
list:

http://help.demon.net/files/2013/02/ADSL2-Exchange-List.pdf

[John Hall]

In article <5ma9j8t2rhh8imi4k...@4ax.com>,

Phil Masters <ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> writes:
>I've just had an e-mail from Demon, apparently saying that I
>should now be able to get ADSL2+ and certainly encouraging me
>to change to a service which includes that.

They sent me the email too, in spite of the fact that I had done that
very thing just a couple of weeks ago.

[Peter Hill]

On 13/02/2013 08:45, Laurence Hansen wrote:
> I've been on Home Office 8000 for ages now, no chance of an upgrade as
> the local exchange was not enabled for ADSL2+. Well I've just looked on
> Demon's website and it seems that ADSL2+ is now available to me.
>
> Currently my router synchs at 7.6 or thereabouts, but speedtests
> inevitably fall in the 2-3 Mbps range. I am now told that if I move to
> Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited that "You will get an estimated
> speed of 14.50 Mbps...on this telephone number."
>
> Does this mean what it says, or is it equivalent to 'up to' - ie I'm
> unlikely to see anything like that in terms of data throughput?
>
> Anything else I should be aware of? I usually find if something seems
> too good to be true, it often is!
>
> Thanks

I've just had a similar offer. My speed is about 4 to 4.3Mb/s on
speedtest.net (dunno about bt speedtester) but had dropped below 2Mb/s
last Nov and modem reports connection at 5536 Kb/s.

This site has a graph that indicates improvement to be expected.
http://freeola.com/adsl2-21cn-rollout/

In my case I think that's about nil. And they say that for £18.50 (+
vat?) 24 month contract BLite+ it will downgrade.
"You will get an estimated speed of 2.50 Mbps on Demon Business Lite+ on
this telephone number. "

In your case the speed improvement could be quite good but the speedtest
is poor. How many phones on the line? Do the REM's add up to less than
3.5? Try a new filter.

It's a bugger I'm on Tutbury exchange, the fiber that runs past Ashby
and Swadlincote runs out just 2 miles up the road in Stretton. The
Stretton FTTC cabinet is closer than the Turbury exch. And it must be a
real pisser for people that live in Dovecliff road, Stretton that people
in Dovecliff Crescent in the estate behind them can get FTTC from Burton
on Trent exchange (4.6Km but cabinet on corner) while they can't as on
Tutbury exchange (4.55Km). My mate on Swadlincote exch is getting 76Mb/s
FTTC from TalkTalk over BT with phone calls for £15/month.

--
Peter Hill
replace nospam with domain host name to reply

[Ian Jackson]

In message <y+WX5ZGB...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>, John Hall
<nospam...@jhall.co.uk> writes

>In article <tvl9j89d8lnpljsee...@4ax.com>,
> Phil Masters <ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:34:18 +0000, Ian <ne...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>>Enter your exchange name here, and you might find your answer.
>>>
>>>http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search
>>
>>Okay, did that. No mention anywhere on the ensuing page of ADSL2+ as
>>such that I can see; ADSL "Enabled"; 21CN WBC "Not available"; under
>>LLU operator presence, C&W: "Not available".
>>
>>So I gather that, Demon's e-mail notwithstanding, I'm not getting any
>>ADSL2+ for the time being.
>>
>
>You can find the exchanges where Demon plan to have ADSL2+ enabled
>within the next few months (as well as those recently enabled) in this
>list:
>
>http://help.demon.net/files/2013/02/ADSL2-Exchange-List.pdf

That's odd. I understood that I was transferred to ADSL2+ a couple of
years ago. However, as my exchange is on the list, presumably I wasn't!
That might explain why there was no change of my downstream speed (a
plodding 1.7Mb/s). But they must have done something, because my
upstream doubled to a fairly respectable 750kb/s.
--
Ian

[John Hall]

In article <WUaw+TDR...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>,

Maybe I was wrong in thinking that only those exchanges that were being
upgraded in the current round of upgrades were included then, and it
includes all exchanges ever upgraded. Looking at the list, I think that
must be the case, as it includes some exchanges in large towns that one
would assume would have acquired ADSL2+ long ago.

[Nix]

On 4 Mar 2013, John Hall outgrape:

> In article <WUaw+TDR...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>,
> Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>In message <y+WX5ZGB...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>,
>>John Hall <nospam...@jhall.co.uk> writes

>>>You can find the exchanges where Demon plan to have ADSL2+ enabled
>>>within the next few months (as well as those recently enabled) in this
>>>list:
>>>
>>>http://help.demon.net/files/2013/02/ADSL2-Exchange-List.pdf
>>
>>That's odd. I understood that I was transferred to ADSL2+ a couple
>>of years ago. However, as my exchange is on the list, presumably I
>>wasn't! That might explain why there was no change of my
>>downstream speed (a plodding 1.7Mb/s). But they must have done
>>something, because my upstream doubled to a fairly respectable
>>750kb/s.
>
> Maybe I was wrong in thinking that only those exchanges that were being
> upgraded in the current round of upgrades were included then, and it
> includes all exchanges ever upgraded. Looking at the list, I think that
> must be the case, as it includes some exchanges in large towns that one
> would assume would have acquired ADSL2+ long ago.

It's a complete list. Sandy may not be a large town but it's there, and
it acquired ADSL2 back in 2011. Places bigger than Sandy got it years
earlier. (Of course, A&A supported ADSL2 from the moment it started
being rolled out. :P if at somewhat higher cost...)

--
NULL && (void)

[Ian Jackson]

In message <GyRaKAJc...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>, John Hall

Yes, the heading is maybe slightly misleading - but it's obvious that
the list tells you which exchanges already have ADSL2+, the few which
haven't (and for which there is no indication when they will), and
min/max dates for a very small number which will be soon activated.
--
Ian

[Peter Hill]

On 04/03/2013 19:48, John Hall wrote:
> In article <tvl9j89d8lnpljsee...@4ax.com>,
> Phil Masters <ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:34:18 +0000, Ian <ne...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> Enter your exchange name here, and you might find your answer.
>>>
>>> http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search
>>
>> Okay, did that. No mention anywhere on the ensuing page of ADSL2+ as
>> such that I can see; ADSL "Enabled"; 21CN WBC "Not available"; under
>> LLU operator presence, C&W: "Not available".
>>
>> So I gather that, Demon's e-mail notwithstanding, I'm not getting any
>> ADSL2+ for the time being.
>>
>
> You can find the exchanges where Demon plan to have ADSL2+ enabled
> within the next few months (as well as those recently enabled) in this
> list:
>
> http://help.demon.net/files/2013/02/ADSL2-Exchange-List.pdf

That's not Demon C&W LLU list. It's the whole of BT network that Demon
are offering. If they don't already have LLU chances are they never
will. ADSL2+ on exchange without Demon LLU costs more.

[Phil Masters]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 19:48:17 +0000, John Hall
<nospam...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>You can find the exchanges where Demon plan to have ADSL2+ enabled
>within the next few months (as well as those recently enabled) in this
>list:
>
>http://help.demon.net/files/2013/02/ADSL2-Exchange-List.pdf

Many thanks.

Mine shows no ADSL2+ and no predicted dates. Oh well, saves me from
having to make any decisions. Search me why they sent me that upgrade
e-mail.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 17:43:28 +0000, Cliff Frisby
<spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> wrote:

They did that for my wireless connection but do not for FTTC.
The engineer has to change the faceplate, the hub and then run some
locally driven tests on the connection from home to the BT cabinet.

[John Hall]

In article <ribZs.656615$Le7.6...@fx03.fr7>,

Indeed. Still a good bit less than I was previously paying for
HomeOfiice8000, though.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <V67Zs.567672$5F3.3...@fx21.fr7>, Peter Hill
<peter....@skyshack.demon.co.uk> writes

>On 13/02/2013 08:45, Laurence Hansen wrote:
>> I've been on Home Office 8000 for ages now, no chance of an upgrade as
>> the local exchange was not enabled for ADSL2+. Well I've just looked on
>> Demon's website and it seems that ADSL2+ is now available to me.
>>
>> Currently my router synchs at 7.6 or thereabouts, but speedtests
>> inevitably fall in the 2-3 Mbps range. I am now told that if I move to
>> Business Lite+ or Business Unlimited that "You will get an estimated
>> speed of 14.50 Mbps...on this telephone number."
>>
>> Does this mean what it says, or is it equivalent to 'up to' - ie I'm
>> unlikely to see anything like that in terms of data throughput?
>>
>> Anything else I should be aware of? I usually find if something seems
>> too good to be true, it often is!
>>
>> Thanks
>
>I've just had a similar offer. My speed is about 4 to 4.3Mb/s on
>speedtest.net (dunno about bt speedtester) but had dropped below 2Mb/s
>last Nov and modem reports connection at 5536 Kb/s.
>
>This site has a graph that indicates improvement to be expected.
>http://freeola.com/adsl2-21cn-rollout/

Hmm.. Gives me 660m from the local exchange which is as the Crow flies.
Cable route is more like 1.5k as it goes where there are houses and
actually by-passes us to the end of an overhead multicore and then comes
back as (I think) 2 core. Extra 400m!

Actual speed about 5.5meg. which is ample for my needs but generates
whinges from the family with their various **pads. The comparison graph
shows there would be little improvement for the extra money.

--
Tim Lamb

[Jim O'Reilly]

>
>That's not Demon C&W LLU list. It's the whole of BT network that Demon
>are offering. If they don't already have LLU chances are they never
>will. ADSL2+ on exchange without Demon LLU costs more.
>

That's why I would be charged £23 for going to Business lite from £18 on
Home 8000,I presume
--
Jim O'Reilly

[John Hall]

In article <a6kZCXA2...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk>,

When I upgraded to BusinessLite+ a few weeks ago, also on an exchange
where Demon ADSL2+ had just become available but without Demon LLU, it
came to £210.96+VAT per year, which makes a monthly charge of
£17.58+VAT, which I make £20.65 including VAT. I can't see why you
should be quoted a substantially higher charge.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <4aF+vrDm...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>, John Hall
<nospam...@jhall.co.uk> writes

>In article <a6kZCXA2...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk>,
> Jim O'Reilly <Jim_n...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>That's not Demon C&W LLU list. It's the whole of BT network that Demon
>>>are offering. If they don't already have LLU chances are they never
>>>will. ADSL2+ on exchange without Demon LLU costs more.
>>>
>>That's why I would be charged �23 for going to Business lite from �18 on
>>Home 8000,I presume
>
>When I upgraded to BusinessLite+ a few weeks ago, also on an exchange
>where Demon ADSL2+ had just become available but without Demon LLU, it
>came to �210.96+VAT per year, which makes a monthly charge of
>�17.58+VAT, which I make �20.65 including VAT. I can't see why you
>should be quoted a substantially higher charge.

I've been checking my records, and my situation seems to be as follows.

Before August, 2011, after various changes (including the change from
dial-up to broadband), I had ended up with HomeOffice 8000, and paying
(annually) �14 per month plus VAT. [I know that this is less than I had
been paying a few years earlier.

In August, 2011, an e-mail from Demon said:
"We are happy to inform you that your broadband service has now been
upgraded to Demon 2+. Please reboot your broadband router to enjoy the
benefits of your faster service." [I presume that this is ADSL2+.]
Note that, for this, I still seem to be paying �14 per month, plus VAT.
My downstream speed seems to be exactly the same as it was previously.

In September, 2011, I received the following (sic):
"I have been reviewing your account with Demon broadband and I see that
you currently have our HomeOffice�2�package. We have just finished
upgrading your exchange and as a result we can offer you a much higher
quality of service on our Business 2 + pro package and also reduce the
cost for you as well.
The benefits of upgrading are -
Download speed of up to 20 MB
Upload speed of up to 1 MB
Prioritised traffic
Contention ratio 20:1 (current 50:1) so will be competing less for
bandwidth at exchange
Increase in usage allowance from 60GB to 200 GB
24/7 UK support
Domain name
Webspace
Free pre-configured wireless router
Standard price for the Business 2+ Pro is �25+vat�but as you are an
existing loyal customer I can offer this service at �21�p/m�+vat on 12
month contract."

I noted that even with the discount, this would cost �7 plus VAT more
per month. Also, as my existing service, which I guess is still 'up to
8Mb/s', was (and still is) only 1.6Mb/s, I reckoned that a promised
"download speed of up to 20 MB" (sic) would probably also be 1.6Mb/s -
so I ignored the kind offer.
--
Ian

[Jim O'Reilly]

In article <4aF+vrDm...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>, John Hall
<nospam...@jhall.co.uk> writes

>In article <a6kZCXA2...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk>,
> Jim O'Reilly <Jim_n...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>That's not Demon C&W LLU list. It's the whole of BT network that Demon
>>>are offering. If they don't already have LLU chances are they never
>>>will. ADSL2+ on exchange without Demon LLU costs more.
>>>
>>That's why I would be charged £23 for going to Business lite from £18 on
>>Home 8000,I presume
>
>When I upgraded to BusinessLite+ a few weeks ago, also on an exchange
>where Demon ADSL2+ had just become available but without Demon LLU, it
>came to £210.96+VAT per year, which makes a monthly charge of
>£17.58+VAT, which I make £20.65 including VAT. I can't see why you
>should be quoted a substantially higher charge.

Because that is what came up on the website when I put my telephone no
in.Actually £22.50 on 12 month contract and £18.50 on 24 month
--
Jim O'Reilly

[John Hall]

In article <k9EmDLA2...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk>,

Jim O'Reilly <Jim_n...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk> writes:
>In article <4aF+vrDm...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>, John Hall
><nospam...@jhall.co.uk> writes
>>In article <a6kZCXA2...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk>,
>> Jim O'Reilly <Jim_n...@jimoreilly.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>>>
>>>>That's not Demon C&W LLU list. It's the whole of BT network that Demon
>>>>are offering. If they don't already have LLU chances are they never
>>>>will. ADSL2+ on exchange without Demon LLU costs more.
>>>>
>>>That's why I would be charged £23 for going to Business lite from £18 on
>>>Home 8000,I presume
>>
>>When I upgraded to BusinessLite+ a few weeks ago, also on an exchange
>>where Demon ADSL2+ had just become available but without Demon LLU, it
>>came to £210.96+VAT per year, which makes a monthly charge of
>>£17.58+VAT, which I make £20.65 including VAT. I can't see why you
>>should be quoted a substantially higher charge.
>Because that is what came up on the website when I put my telephone no
>in.Actually £22.50 on 12 month contract and £18.50 on 24 month

Ah yes, I'd forgotten the difference between 12 and 24 month contracts.
I went for the 24 month option.

[Chris Marriott]

Is anyone able to clarify whether the prices quoted on the upgrade offer (eg
£19/month for "Business Unlimited" on a 24-month contract) are inclusive or
exclusive of VAT? Either way I'd save money over what I'm paying now for my
"HomeOffice" account, but it would be nice to know. It's the "UK-based
support" that sounds like the most attractive aspect of this offer.

Thanks,

Chris

[Ian DALGLEISH]

On 2013-03-06 15:54:34 +0000, Chris Marriott said:

> Is anyone able to clarify whether the prices quoted on the upgrade offer (eg
> £19/month for "Business Unlimited" on a 24-month contract) are inclusive or
> exclusive of VAT?

It does NOT include VAT.
That's the account I am now on.
I pay £216.60 + VAT (12 x £19 = £228, less 5% discount if you pay
annually = £11.40)

I am now getting a download speed of 15.30 Mbps and an upload speed of
0.60 Mbps.
This is more than double what I was getting before on the Home Office
8000 account.

The upgrade procedure is totally painless.
Make sure you order your 'free' router :-)

Ian.
--
==========================
Ian Dalgleish

Ardrossan Academy Website
http://www.ardacad.co.uk/

Chemistry Notes, Mac Apps etc
http://www.iandalgleish.co.uk/

Largs Website
http://www.mylargs.com
==========================

[Cliff Frisby]

Thanks for the link. It was the word 'hub' that worried me. That looks like
the VDSL analogue of my ADSL ethernet modem, which would be fine.

I wonder how it will work if/when Demon start offering FTTC. Will it be BT's
engineer and VDSL box calling, or C&W's?

[Cliff Frisby]

Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 17:43:28 +0000, Cliff Frisby
> <spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>>
>><snipped>
>>> The only thing holding me back is the fact that the hub in my house
>>> would need to be changed and BT insist that their engineer does the job.
>>> They won't just send me a box so I can to do it myself.
>>>
>>
>>But can you use your own box if you source it yourself? (In other words,
>>is there a 'wires only' option?)
>>
>
> They did that for my wireless connection but do not for FTTC.
> The engineer has to change the faceplate, the hub and then run some
> locally driven tests on the connection from home to the BT cabinet.
>

I suppose that the word 'hub' is leading me to assume some VDSL equivalent
of the type of 'router' of which Demons 'Technicolor' is an example. Is
that what this 'hub' thing is, or is it more like a modem (where you still
have the ability to terminate the PPP link in your own equipment)? And, if
the former, do you have the option of asking for the latter?!

Why am I bovvered? Having recently migrated to a 4-IP Business Unlimited
service, I've been able to confirm what I already suspected, which is that,
contrary to what Demon themselves say on their help pages, and restated in
this NG, there is no fundamental problem with using all four of the
addresses as normal host addresses, and neither should there be. (Care to
check the headers of this message and you'll see I posted it from my
all-ones host address; and the reply to Chris S a few minutes ago was from
my all-zeros host address.)

But then I'm not using the Technicolor router. I haven't tried to find out
whether it would restrict my ability use the first and last addresses (in
addition to grabbing one of the remaining two for itself) but it wouldn't
surprise me.

So, inevitably, I get a bit huffy at the prospect of such devices being
mandatory, rather than merely de riguer, in a fibre-enabled future.

[John Hall]

In article <2013030616253040908-igd@methyldemoncouk>,

Ian DALGLEISH <i...@methyl.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Make sure you order your 'free' router :-)

Indeed. Even if you already have a router capable of handling ADSL2+, as
it's a good idea to have a spare. And it nicely offsets the �25 set-up
fee that Demon charge.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <1FJZs.239$Nd1...@fx30.fr7>, Chris Marriott
<ch...@nowhere.com> writes

My homeoffice account is �16.80/month inc. VAT. (Annual direct debit).

ISTR threatening to leave can bring reductions:-)

--
Tim Lamb

[Peter Hill]

The chart is for physical connection speed not file data speed that
speedtest etc report. There is an overhead in every packet of data sent.

If you have a speed 5.5Mbps for file transfer (data download) your
connection speed will be in excess of 7Mbps. That should upgrade to
ADSL2+ connection over 13Mbps with file transfer speed of about 10Mbps.
At just 1.5Km from exchange the chart suggests it could be higher than
that. A 2x speed increase for a locked in 12/24 month contact at about
same or lower price - seems a decent deal to me. Unless you have FTTC in
area and are willing to move to TalkTalk.

Somewhere in your modem/router status page it should show it's
connection speed. Here's mine
Internet Settings
ADSL Status Connected
Data Rate Down/Up 5600Kb/448Kb

That yields a 4.3Mbps download and 370Kbps upload speed. You should see
something like 7xxxkb/448kb, the closer 7xxx is to 8000 the better your
ADSL2+ data rate will be.

[Richard_C]

On 06/03/2013 18:29, Cliff Frisby wrote:

> Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>
>>
>
> Why am I bovvered? Having recently migrated to a 4-IP Business Unlimited
> service, I've been able to confirm what I already suspected, which is that,
> contrary to what Demon themselves say on their help pages, and restated in
> this NG, there is no fundamental problem with using all four of the
> addresses as normal host addresses, and neither should there be. (Care to
> check the headers of this message and you'll see I posted it from my
> all-ones host address; and the reply to Chris S a few minutes ago was from
> my all-zeros host address.)
>
>

Drifting slightly off topic but hopefully relevant. I will have to look
at a move to Business Unlimited, or another supplier, and don't really
understand much about IP addresses. OK I know what they are, but not
what sort I need.

For now, I have a single fixed IP address and my router allocates LAN
addresses to my various devices - IPAD, printer (which I can email from
elsewhere), macbook, NAS (which I can access from elsewhere via an LG
website) and up to 3 laptops.

Why would I need more? Should I ask for 1 or 4 if I upgrade?
What is the disadvantage of moving to another provider who doesn't offer
a fixed IP address?
Is there a useful website that explains all this stuff?

Thanks

[Cliff Frisby]

The short answer, given what you say, is that if you moved to Business
{whatever}, it is extremely unlikely IMHO that you would ever regret
choosing the single-IP option over the multiple-IP option for the one- or
two-year period that you would be stuck with it.

If you were to raise the question in a new thread, it would get more
attention, and I for one would attempt a longer answer. But, as you say, it
could go wildly off-thread-topic here.

[Martin]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:20:09 +0000, John Hall <nospam...@jhall.co.uk>
uttered:

}In article <2013030616253040908-igd@methyldemoncouk>,
} Ian DALGLEISH <i...@methyl.demon.co.uk> writes:
}>Make sure you order your 'free' router :-)
}
}Indeed. Even if you already have a router capable of handling ADSL2+, as

}it's a good idea to have a spare. And it nicely offsets the Ł25 set-up
}fee that Demon charge.

I've upgraded this week to Business Unlimited from what I think was HomeOffice
8000 which I've been using for a while.

I also asked for the free router.

The service migration took place at around 0900 on the day they said it would.

I had a problem problem with the free"pre-configured router" (Technicolor
TG582N) as the login for my ADSL connection was wrong (I wasn't using the
default), but that didn't take me too long to figure out, though I started
using the new service with my existing router (Netgear DG834GV5) as I didn't
have any issues with it.

Once service was restored and stable I experienced a download speed increase
from around 6Mb/s to around 9Mb/s, with upstream speed increasing from around
800kb/s to 880kb/s, according to the "Router Stats" page.

As you can imagine, I was "well chuffed".

A day later, I thought I would give the freebie Technicolor router a try,
having configured it to look like my existing one as far as possible, and lo
and behold I am getting almost exactly 10Mb/s downstream, according to the
"Router Stats" page, and furthermore, according to the f8lure.com page, my
"ping" performance has improved beyond all recognition.

Overall, so far a very positive experience, not a common thing these days!

--

Martin

--
Martin Rigby

[Peter Ceresole]

Martin <martin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Overall, so far a very positive experience, not a common thing these days!

I had a very similar experience, except that I'd love your downstream
speed. Currently getting around 4Mbps, which is what I used to get with
my DG834N, but without the regular slowdown and resets the 834 required.
Otherwise, Biz Unlimited is good, and their helpline is excellent.

Now all I want is for FTTC (in a cabinet a couple of streets away) to
come into play. Except that the local street distribution is a
spidersweb radiating from a pole. So it doesn't look like the 21st
century is happening any time soon.
--
Peter

[Tim Lamb]

In message <CFMZs.153$zh5...@fx22.fr7>, Peter Hill
<peter....@skyshack.demon.co.uk> writes

>On 05/03/2013 10:57, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> This site has a graph that indicates improvement to be expected.
>>> http://freeola.com/adsl2-21cn-rollout/
>>
>> Hmm.. Gives me 660m from the local exchange which is as the Crow flies.
>> Cable route is more like 1.5k as it goes where there are houses and
>> actually by-passes us to the end of an overhead multicore and then comes
>> back as (I think) 2 core. Extra 400m!
>>
>> Actual speed about 5.5meg. which is ample for my needs but generates
>> whinges from the family with their various **pads. The comparison graph
>> shows there would be little improvement for the extra money.
>
>The chart is for physical connection speed not file data speed that
>speedtest etc report. There is an overhead in every packet of data sent.
>
>If you have a speed 5.5Mbps for file transfer (data download) your
>connection speed will be in excess of 7Mbps. That should upgrade to
>ADSL2+ connection over 13Mbps with file transfer speed of about 10Mbps.
>At just 1.5Km from exchange the chart suggests it could be higher than
>that. A 2x speed increase for a locked in 12/24 month contact at about
>same or lower price - seems a decent deal to me. Unless you have FTTC
>in area and are willing to move to TalkTalk.

OK I was simply relating my reported speed to the two curves.

>
>Somewhere in your modem/router status page it should show it's
>connection speed. Here's mine
>Internet Settings
> ADSL Status Connected
> Data Rate Down/Up 5600Kb/448Kb
>
>That yields a 4.3Mbps download and 370Kbps upload speed. You should see
>something like 7xxxkb/448kb, the closer 7xxx is to 8000 the better your
>ADSL2+ data rate will be.

er.. hangs head in shame.. I have never interrogated my router and do
not know how...

Actual speed is not currently an issue but I suspect that new devices
will gradually need better performance than can be achieved with a
semi-rural service.

The cable layers took one look at the small number of properties in our
lane and promptly went elsewhere. Temptingly, a duct runs through the
farm carrying fibre from Luton to South Mimms:-)
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:29:35 +0000, Cliff Frisby
<spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I suppose that the word 'hub' is leading me to assume some VDSL equivalent
>of the type of 'router' of which Demons 'Technicolor' is an example. Is
>that what this 'hub' thing is, or is it more like a modem (where you still
>have the ability to terminate the PPP link in your own equipment)? And, if
>the former, do you have the option of asking for the latter?!

The BTHub3 has a single connection to the telephone line and 4
Ethernet sockets. It also has wi-fi.

[Jim Crowther]

In demon.service, on Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:07:17, Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:29:35 +0000, Cliff Frisby
><spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I suppose that the word 'hub' is leading me to assume some VDSL equivalent
>>of the type of 'router' of which Demons 'Technicolor' is an example. Is
>>that what this 'hub' thing is, or is it more like a modem (where you still
>>have the ability to terminate the PPP link in your own equipment)? And, if
>>the former, do you have the option of asking for the latter?!
>
>The BTHub3 has a single connection to the telephone line and 4
>Ethernet sockets. It also has wi-fi.

Just noting that a third-party FTTC hook-up (A&A, Talktalk, Demon
eventually perhaps) won't have the 'BT hub', but will have the BT VDSL
modem (installed by a BT engineer together with new faceplate) and then
a router of your choice - Technicolor, whatever.

The Technicolor 582 uses Ethernet port 4 as the PPP input from the VDSL
modem, and is what I had supplied by A&A.

--
Jim Crowther

[Cliff Frisby]

Jim Crowther wrote:

> In demon.service, on Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:07:17, Stephen Wolstenholme
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:29:35 +0000, Cliff Frisby
>><spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>I suppose that the word 'hub' is leading me to assume some VDSL
>>>equivalent of the type of 'router' of which Demons 'Technicolor' is an
>>>example. Is that what this 'hub' thing is, or is it more like a modem
>>>(where you still have the ability to terminate the PPP link in your own
>>>equipment)? And, if the former, do you have the option of asking for the
>>>latter?!
>>
>>The BTHub3 has a single connection to the telephone line and 4
>>Ethernet sockets. It also has wi-fi.
>
> Just noting that a third-party FTTC hook-up (A&A, Talktalk, Demon
> eventually perhaps) won't have the 'BT hub', but will have the BT VDSL
> modem (installed by a BT engineer together with new faceplate) and then
> a router of your choice - Technicolor, whatever.
>

A much more flexible approach. Surely BT do not deny this option to their
own FTTC broadband customers.

(I suppose I should not assume that the 'BT hub' cannot be placed into a
pure bridging mode, but it's not clear from the discussion so far that the
customer has any control over the device in any case.)

<snip>

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:41:17 +0000, Cliff Frisby
<spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>(I suppose I should not assume that the 'BT hub' cannot be placed into a
>pure bridging mode, but it's not clear from the discussion so far that the
>customer has any control over the device in any case.)

See
http://btbusiness.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13720/~/how-do-i-enable-bridge-mode-on-my-bt-business-hub%3F

[Cliff Frisby]

Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:41:17 +0000, Cliff Frisby
> <spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>(I suppose I should not assume that the 'BT hub' cannot be placed into a
>>pure bridging mode, but it's not clear from the discussion so far that the
>>customer has any control over the device in any case.)
>
> See
>
http://btbusiness.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13720/~/how-do-i-enable-bridge-mode-on-my-bt-business-hub%3F

Ah thanks. But surely that 'BT Business Hub' is a a different beast, because
by clicking through to this related article...:

http://btbusiness.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13439/

...it appears that it works in conjunction with an Openreach modem
(effectively a PPP bridge) and the customer is not obliged to use it (the
BT Business Hub, I mean).

A bit like the A&A setup, in other words. The bridging isn't the type I had
in mind, but it would not be a problem because the separate modem provides
such bridge.

In contrast. I got the impression that your prospective 'BTHub3' had the
modem functionality in the same enclosure, along with the router, ethernet
switch and wireless AP functionalities. Reading this Wikipedia article...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_Home_Hub
... it seems to say that you still have the separate modem, so perhaps the
consumer 'hub' is just as optional as the 'Business Hub'.

That article is quite an eye-opener btw, especially the bit about the BT's
remote management. It's why I don't like these all-in-one boxes. Remotely
managing a modem is fine (there's nothing that that couldn't be inspected
at their end if they wanted to), but the price of conveniently bundling
your LAN into the same box is this type of thing:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/24/bt_snooping/

It's all a bit academic, as I will probably never take Internet access via
BT for reasons other than this one, and Jim's earlier post reassures that
other providers such as A&A leave the handling of the PPP to the user,
regardless of what BT do.

[Chloe]

On Thu, 07 Mar 2013 10:07:17 +0000, Stephen Wolstenholme
<st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:29:35 +0000, Cliff Frisby
><spam...@scarpia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I suppose that the word 'hub' is leading me to assume some VDSL equivalent
>>of the type of 'router' of which Demons 'Technicolor' is an example. Is
>>that what this 'hub' thing is, or is it more like a modem (where you still
>>have the ability to terminate the PPP link in your own equipment)? And, if
>>the former, do you have the option of asking for the latter?!
>
> The BTHub3 has a single connection to the telephone line and 4
> Ethernet sockets. It also has wi-fi.
>

Depends on the model.
Early ones have 1x PSTN (phone), and 4x ethernet sockets.

Later (FTTC) ones have: 1xPSTN for ADSL, 1x ethernet for FTTC/PPPoE, 4x
ethernet for lan and the wifi.

Chloe

[Nix]

On 7 Mar 2013, Cliff Frisby outgrape:

> That article is quite an eye-opener btw, especially the bit about the BT's
> remote management. It's why I don't like these all-in-one boxes. Remotely
> managing a modem is fine (there's nothing that that couldn't be inspected
> at their end if they wanted to), but the price of conveniently bundling
> your LAN into the same box is this type of thing:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/24/bt_snooping/
>
> It's all a bit academic, as I will probably never take Internet access via
> BT for reasons other than this one, and Jim's earlier post reassures that
> other providers such as A&A leave the handling of the PPP to the user,
> regardless of what BT do.

Even if they don't, all you need to do to block this sort of thing is to
put a box behind it that routes (not bridges) traffic from it to the
rest of the network, just like any other dedicated firewall box. MAC
sniffing isn't going to get past something like that: the most it will
see is all traffic going to and from a single MAC, surely not terribly
privacy-invading. (Of course, since BT run the infrastructure, they
could already easily spy on the content of your connections, just as
Demon could: even if everything is encrypted, unless you have another
route to transfer your cryptographic secrets, they see the connection
setup phase, so can easily sniff that too. The only way around this is
something like line bonding, so that half your packets go over a non-BT
route -- though even then the ISP can sniff you easily. Eventually you
just have to trust somebody.)

--
NULL && (void)

[Joe]

On Thu, 07 Mar 2013 21:37:32 +0000
Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.org.uk> wrote:

> On 7 Mar 2013, Cliff Frisby outgrape:
> > That article is quite an eye-opener btw, especially the bit about
> > the BT's remote management. It's why I don't like these all-in-one
> > boxes. Remotely managing a modem is fine (there's nothing that that
> > couldn't be inspected at their end if they wanted to), but the
> > price of conveniently bundling your LAN into the same box is this
> > type of thing: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/24/bt_snooping/
> >
> > It's all a bit academic, as I will probably never take Internet
> > access via BT for reasons other than this one, and Jim's earlier
> > post reassures that other providers such as A&A leave the handling
> > of the PPP to the user, regardless of what BT do.
>
> Even if they don't, all you need to do to block this sort of thing is
> to put a box behind it that routes (not bridges) traffic from it to
> the rest of the network, just like any other dedicated firewall box.
> MAC sniffing isn't going to get past something like that: the most it
> will see is all traffic going to and from a single MAC, surely not
> terribly privacy-invading.

Sadly not. A few years ago I had a client who determinedly stuck with
BT even though they messed up at least five times in five years, mostly
with a week's outage each time. They had a Linux server running SQL and
a few oddities, and it was also acting as a backup firewall, adding
several missing facilities to the ADSL NAT router.

Then they moved premises [again], and the new ADSL installation came
with a BT hub of some kind which simply refused to operate with another
NAT router behind it. I spent a short time looking for workarounds, but
the client operated about 18 hours a day and I couldn't take too long
over it. Eventually I gave up and moved the server over to one NIC in a
standard network.

I did wonder why BT objected to an internal NAT, but I'd never been
curious enough to look into it. Now I see that they simply would not
tolerate anything that stopped them snooping.

I wonder now if this is the way all British ISPs will go, with
'managed' Internet connection boxes, possibly government-mandated, in
their clients' networks.

--
Joe