Demon Internet -- Does this company even deserve to be in business ? Malcom Muir please comment
David
From: Demon Internet Senior Enquiries Desk [mailto:enqu...@demon.net]
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 12:24 PM
To: Husband, David
Subject: Re: Purchase of 2 Turnpike Universal Licences
Thank you for your email.
I have passed your enquiry on to our Business Customer Sales Team
who will be in contact very shortly. You can also call 020 8492 7050 to
speak to a representative.
Regards
----- Reply -----
From: Husband, David
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 12:44 PM
To: 'Demon Internet Senior Enquiries Desk'
Cc: 'mal...@demon.net'; 'off...@fortuneswell.ltd.uk'
Subject: RE: Purchase of 2 Turnpike Universal Licences
Eh ? Is this some sort of joke ?
It is now nearly three weeks since I placed a simple order with your
company by email in compliance with the instructions for ordering by
email on the turnpike web site.
This is now the third "robot" email of this sort I have received and
nothing else.
"our Business Customer Sales Team .... will be in contact very shortly."
You are lying, they have not been in contact *AT ALL* in nearly three
weeks.
When are you intending to fulfil my order ?
Simple question -- please answer it.
David Husband
--
My Sig is on holiday in France..
Phil Harrison
.co.uk> writes
>...
> You can also call 020 8492 7050 to
>speak to a representative.
>
Have you tried calling this number?
--
Phil Harrison
David
<ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
No - I ordered by email and I see no good reason why it should take
nearly 3 weeks to get a simple 10-minute order done. Do you ?
I see no good reason why a company should send bullshit robot fob-off
emails to a customer when he asks about the progress of his order.
Do you ?
Loads of other companies manage to fulfil email orders of physical goods
within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
Why can't Demon manage it ?
Al Rainsbury
<nos...@pogoNONstickSPAM.co.uk> said to me
>In article <1uaswnAO...@generac.co.uk>, Phil Harrison
><ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>
>>In article <$0bhTAAs...@p-v.bet.hx>, David <nospam@pogoNONstickSPAM
>>.co.uk> writes
>>
>>>...
>>> You can also call 020 8492 7050 to
>>>speak to a representative.
>>>
>>Have you tried calling this number?
>
>No - I ordered by email and I see no good reason why it should take
>nearly 3 weeks to get a simple 10-minute order done. Do you ?
>
Not really. But if you want a couple of licenses so badly why don't you
just ring the number?
>I see no good reason why a company should send bullshit robot fob-off
>emails to a customer when he asks about the progress of his order.
>Do you ?
>
Perhaps it's to let you know that they have received your email and
passed it on to the relevant people?
>Loads of other companies manage to fulfil email orders of physical goods
>within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
>
>Why can't Demon manage it ?
Could it be because Demon is an ISP which, and I'm guessing here cos I
don't know the history, sells turnpike as a minor sideline after they
discovered they had a decent product, rather than a retailer. Amazon and
Maplin sell things, it's how they make their money. Demon are an ISP,
THAT's how they make their money, until they start promoting it
(something I think they should do as it rocks) Turnpike is just a
sideline.
--
Alastair Rainsbury "CTID" (bi...@rainsbury.com)
Beer - The reason I wake up every afternoon.
Phil Harrison
.co.uk> writes
>In article <1uaswnAO...@generac.co.uk>, Phil Harrison
><ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>
>>In article <$0bhTAAs...@p-v.bet.hx>, David <nospam@pogoNONstickSPAM
>>.co.uk> writes
>>
>>>...
>>> You can also call 020 8492 7050 to
>>>speak to a representative.
>>>
>>Have you tried calling this number?
>
>No - I ordered by email and I see no good reason why it should take
>nearly 3 weeks to get a simple 10-minute order done. Do you ?
>
response to my initial e-mail, I certainly wouldn't have waited over
three weeks before calling it.
>Loads of other companies manage to fulfil email orders of physical goods
>within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
>
>Why can't Demon manage it ?
Dunno. Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so important
to you?
--
Phil Harrison
Stephen Agar
<web...@rainsbury.com> writes
>>
>>Why can't Demon manage it ?
>
>Could it be because Demon is an ISP which, and I'm guessing here cos I
>don't know the history, sells turnpike as a minor sideline after they
>discovered they had a decent product, rather than a retailer. Amazon
>and Maplin sell things, it's how they make their money. Demon are an
>ISP, THAT's how they make their money, until they start promoting it
>(something I think they should do as it rocks) Turnpike is just a sideline.
>
>
So they should sell it via a retailer.
--
Stephen Agar, Brighton, UK
http://www.diplomacy-archive.com
Tim Gowen
<web...@rainsbury.com> writes
>Could it be because Demon is an ISP which, and I'm guessing here cos I
>don't know the history, sells turnpike as a minor sideline after they
>discovered they had a decent product, rather than a retailer. Amazon
>and Maplin sell things, it's how they make their money. Demon are an
>ISP, THAT's how they make their money, until they start promoting it
>(something I think they should do as it rocks) Turnpike is just a
>sideline.
Anything which involves taking money from the public involves Customer
Relations, and the problem described by David is a fault in their
Customer Service department. Once the right person is spoken to,
results tend to happen - but it can take a lot to make Demon sit up and
take notice.
Apart from that, they're great.
Tim
--
+ "I didn't get the money and I didn't get the girl. Pretty, isn't it?"
+ The RATM FAQ: http://www.juglans.demon.co.uk/
Pete
"David" <nos...@pogoNONstickSPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CJj5jEA6...@p-v.bet.hx...
>
> Why can't Demon manage it ?
> --
> My Sig is on holiday in France..
To take a view counter to other respondants - I agree entirely!
Demon is an ISP - if email isn't a good way to get in touch... what is?
Any firm which values its business won't ignore a sales channel preferred by
its *customers*. (Remember them?).
And any sideline product sold with rank indifference will stay a sideline
product.
Incidentally, writing to Demon has much the same effect. Personal experience
is that telephone calls to Demon customer services aren't particularly
effective either.
So what does that leave?
I suppose smoke signals are an option. Perhaps that's why their fire alarm
seems to cause so many evacuations?
Or semaphore.
Or carrier pidgeon.
Or in other words, it would be less effort to take your cash to someone who
wants it...
P.
Paul Giverin
<ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>>within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
>>
>>Why can't Demon manage it ?
>
>Dunno. Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so important
>to you?
>
then perhaps the complainant has got a valid point.
--
Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website
http://www.britjet.co.uk
John Underwood
(Reference: <ns6Iw$AOOTf...@generac.co.uk>)
>Dunno. Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so
>important to you?
In some cases it may not matter that much. If I needed a new key I
suppose I might be prepared to make a phone call - I am away from home
most of the day and mobile phone calls aren't all that expensive (though
they do make the overall cost of the purchase disproportionately more
expensive).
However, I have friends in the States who want to purchase keys. Why
should they have to make transatlantic telephone calls. I buy US
software by Internet and e-mail. Isn't this good for the British and
European balance of trade? I agree with Phil that a customer should not
be forced to make a phone call when e-mail could do the job more simply,
more accurately and more cheaply.
I do remember, though, being told buy a Demon Customer Dis-servant that
e-mail was a modern concept and something his company didn't really
understand. He expressed surprise when I told him that Demon was one of
the largest and long-standing Internet Service Providers in the country
and that e-mail was among the main things it was his job to sell and
service.
--
John Underwood
Robert
>Loads of other companies manage to fulfil email orders of physical goods
>within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
You keep claiming this, but every single example you have quoted is of
an order that was placed by a means *other than* email.
You ordered from the Maplin web site - so you did not order by email
You ordered from an Amazon web site - that is not an order by email
You have now started a second thread that is off-topic in
demon.ip.support.turnpike to complain about Demon not fulfilling an
order that you sent via email. It is your right to complain - that is
what demon.service is for.
You have had it within your grasp to have the order fulfilled, but you
prefer to be bloody-minded - this too is your right
But please put up or shut up about these mythical other companies from
whom you have ordered by email.
More to the point do it ion the right news group. Your posts do not
relate to how to connect via IP using the Turnpike software, they relate
solely to the level of service that you have received from Demon
fu set
--
Robert W98SE 4+2GB out of 13 GB HDD, 256MB Ram, Celeron 434
SiS620 M/B with integrated video & sound
Jim Crowther
<nos...@pogoNONstickSPAM.co.uk> writes
>Loads of other companies manage to fulfil email orders of physical
>goods within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
>
>Why can't Demon manage it ?
To be fair - those orders were via web-pages.
However, one Demon advertised route for obtaining 'U' and 'M' licenses
is via e-mail, and for those overseas it would seem the ideal way to do
it, if there is no web-page method[1].
When TP6 is released, there may be a fair number of overseas folk
requesting licenses. I fervently hope the TP team will have clued-up
the Demon e-mail human responders in how to issue these licenses
effectively.
It should be a much more cost-effective way of doing business than tying
up folk on a (potentially international) telephone call.
[1] Which seems weird considering Demon is advertising its
state-of-the-art e-commerce solutions.
--
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther "It's MY computer"
<http://pchelpers.org>
<http://website.lineone.net/~legal.defence.fund/>
Mike Mann
On 17 Aug 2001 09:27:15 -0500, David <nos...@pogoNONstickSPAM.co.uk>
wrote:
>Why can't Demon manage it ?
This is a continuing mystery to many of us. Demon are incapable of
collecting monthly subscriptions in a timely manner and are incapable
of selling anything.
That has been demonstrated many, many times in d.s. and no-one from
Demon ever explains their shambolic organisation or, indeed, makes any
comment at all, although we all know that senior Demon representatives
are reading this. Perhaps they've been muzzled on this topic.
You really expect a comment from Mr Muir?
Regards, Mike.
--
Solaris on Intel: http://www.kempston.org/solaris/
Andy Mabbett
<ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so important
>to you?
Perhaps he's deaf, or has severe speech impediment? Perhaps he works
unsocial hours?
--
Andy Mabbett
A 1998 survey of 48 restaurants' chicken tikka masalas
found that the only common ingredient was chicken.
Mark
news:Ox9aaeE2UWf7EA$Z...@the-underwoods.org.uk...
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 at 16:09:02 you wrote:
> (Reference: <ns6Iw$AOOTf...@generac.co.uk>)
>
>
> >Dunno. Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so
> >important to you?
>
> In some cases it may not matter that much. If I needed a new key I
> suppose I might be prepared to make a phone call - I am away from home
> most of the day and mobile phone calls aren't all that expensive (though
> they do make the overall cost of the purchase disproportionately more
> expensive).
>
Fair point but there are cases - I don't know if this is one of them - when
a written record of a transaction is required by the customer (receipt, pro
forma invoice or whatever). A phone call with credit card may secure an
order but not necessarily a written record of it.
--
:)
Mark
ma...@petrel-cassoulet.demon.co.up
For e, remove -cassoulet and change up to uk
Peter Saxton
wrote:
It's interesting that when you tell someone at Demon that there's been
a large number of complaints over several years they say: "yes, I have
heard of a few complaints ..." as if it's a script they've been given.
This is similar to the "couple of weeks" for ADSL.
Peter Saxton from London
pe...@petersaxton.co.uk
Eric Erades
>
>I do remember, though, being told buy a Demon Customer Dis-servant that
>e-mail was a modern concept and something his company didn't really
>understand. He expressed surprise when I told him that Demon was one of
>the largest and long-standing Internet Service Providers in the country
>and that e-mail was among the main things it was his job to sell and
>service.
>
John,
I think I've stated this before, it appears that Demon isn't aware about
the quality of TP and the market share it *could* have. Which is a pity
really. Selling more TP licenses could provide the development team with
more resources making it possible to perhaps implement more features
people are asking for and that are still on the wish list. (No I'm not
aiming at a specific wish <g>)
--
Eric Erades
Website: http://www.ciari.co.jp/cd-labeler-gold/
Email : cdlabe...@zeelandnet.nl
Paul Giverin
<de...@zeelandnet.nl> writes
>
>I think I've stated this before, it appears that Demon isn't aware about
>the quality of TP and the market share it *could* have.
I think they have already missed the boat.
> Which is a pity
>really.
Indeed. Its a fine product.
> Selling more TP licenses could provide the development team with
>more resources making it possible to perhaps implement more features
>people are asking for and that are still on the wish list. (No I'm not
>aiming at a specific wish <g>)
>
I wonder how many licences they sell these days and how much revenue is
available for future development (I don't normally read d.i.s.t so
please excuse my ignorance). You don't see too many people using "paid
for" copies of Turnpike and I only purchased a licence when I left Demon
originally and wanted to continue using it.
John Underwood
(Reference: <aUjf7.217545$cc1.11...@nnrp3.clara.net>)
>Fair point but there are cases - I don't know if this is one of them -
>when a written record of a transaction is required by the customer
>(receipt, pro forma invoice or whatever). A phone call with credit card
>may secure an order but not necessarily a written record of it.
That is a matter for the customer. The point being made here is that
such a decision is being made by the "provider" against the wishes of
the customer. Furthermore, in this case the customer wanted a written
record - his copy of the e-mail.
--
John Underwood
John Underwood
(Reference: <tYiaCjFX...@zeelandnet.nl>)
>I think I've stated this before, it appears that Demon isn't aware
>about the quality of TP and the market share it *could* have. Which is
>a pity really. Selling more TP licenses could provide the development
>team with more resources making it possible to perhaps implement more
>features people are asking for and that are still on the wish list. (No
>I'm not aiming at a specific wish <g>)
I agree. However, even given Demon/Thus's position regarding the
marketing of TP, their provision of service to their customers is
appalling. This subject is, I believe, relevant to this ng because it
relates to the specific areas of Turnpike support and in the cases where
some of the worst problems arise the customers are not Demon
subscribers - and, therefore not interested in the general nature of
demon.service which might, otherwise, be a more suitable forum.
It is, though, one example of inadequacy by the non-technical sides of
Demon. To be told by a representative of Demon's Customer "Services"
that they cannot communicate by e-mail because they don't understand
such modern things beggars belief.
--
John Underwood
John Underwood
(Reference: <szDmW0AC...@giverin.co.uk>)
>You don't see too many people using "paid for" copies of Turnpike and I
>only purchased a licence when I left Demon originally and wanted to
>continue using it.
I think you will find that looking at headers will show the presence of
a larger number of U suffixes to the Turnpike headers than you realise.
I had several licences for years although a Demon customer. Now I need
one for two reasons, though still a Demon customer. I often access other
ISPs for a variety of reasons (the least of which is a backup access). I
also have a multi-access licence which is only given to a universally
licensed copy.
However, a one-off payment of UKP10 is never going to generate much in
the way of current income. Eventually, however good the marketing, the
revenue will dry up when all potential customers have been reached and
every new copy sold.
--
John Underwood
hugh emerson
<an...@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes
>In article <ns6Iw$AOOTf...@generac.co.uk>, Phil Harrison
><ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>>Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so important
>>to you?
>
>Perhaps he's deaf, or has severe speech impediment? Perhaps he works
>unsocial hours?
mail request is on a par with the good old days when BT wouldn't accept
orders by phone!!
--
Hugh E
hu...@raefell.demon.co.uk
Jim Crowther
>In <GTvyKC3u...@crowfam.org.uk> Jim Crowther wrote:
>
>>When TP6 is released, there may be a fair number of overseas folk
>>requesting licenses. I fervently hope the TP team will have clued-up
>>the Demon e-mail human responders in how to issue these licenses
>>effectively.
>
>I don't know much about how Turnpike is marketed. Do you mean to say
>it doesn't have its own dedicated sales team?
It would appear not. The potential customer has to rely on a Sales
person having [a] heard of Turnpike and [b] knowing who above them in
the Demon Sales hierarchy has a clue about issuing licenses.
<sigh>
--
Jim Crowther
Roger Hunt
.co.uk> writes
>
>Why can't Demon manage it ?
They do, you know, after a fashion.
This morning I received an email from helpdesk@demon warning me that Red
ROMP is having the plug pulled at the end of the month and would I
please start using Purple ROMP, because their log showed that I'm still
using Red ROMP.
However as I have been using Purple ROMP exclusively and daily since
August 2nd 6.08pm, for that reason, this does make me wonder at the
speed of internal communications at Demon.
(TP 5.01 login did flash a warning about re-configuration but this did
not end up in the TP Logfile - I had to take a well timed screen shot so
I could read the thing).
--
Roger Hunt
M E Kenchington
"Roger Hunt" <ro...@carewg.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:NydcqWAg...@carewg.demon.co.uk...
> This morning I received an email from helpdesk@demon warning me that
Red
> ROMP is having the plug pulled at the end of the month and would I
> please start using Purple ROMP, because their log showed that I'm
still
> using Red ROMP.
> However as I have been using Purple ROMP exclusively and daily since
> August 2nd 6.08pm, for that reason, this does make me wonder at the
> speed of internal communications at Demon.
I can beat that. I had one of those emails too. I have been using the
PCP ISDN number exclusively since April 3rd, and before that I was using
the PCP Analogue number from early October 2000. So the sample log they
apparently made 'last week' appears to be in a timewarp.
Maureen
Roger Hunt
Kenchington <m...@kentaur.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>> This morning I received an email from helpdesk@demon warning me that
>Red
>> ROMP is having the plug pulled at the end of the month and would I
>> please start using Purple ROMP, because their log showed that I'm
>still
>> using Red ROMP.
>> However as I have been using Purple ROMP exclusively and daily since
>> August 2nd 6.08pm, for that reason, this does make me wonder at the
>> speed of internal communications at Demon.
>
>I can beat that. I had one of those emails too. I have been using the
>PCP ISDN number exclusively since April 3rd, and before that I was using
>the PCP Analogue number from early October 2000. So the sample log they
>apparently made 'last week' appears to be in a timewarp.
>
Silly me - they didn't mean 'last week as of now', they meant 'during
the last week of February' or thereabouts.
--
Roger Hunt
Denis Mcmahon
>Or carrier pidgeon.
Is that using plain RFC 1149, or with the RFC 2549 enhancements?[1]
Rgds
Denis
[1] If you're not familiar with these two, it *IS* worth looking them
up. Even if you have no real interest in the technicalities of the
Internet. Honest, it really is.
--
Denis McMahon / +44 7802 468949 / de...@pickaxe.demon.co.uk
Entry conditions for killfile include top-post, advert, bin
I block the [a.b.c.*] of any UC/BE relay.
Usenet posts > 100 lines are not retrieved.
Shez
>
>Loads of other companies manage to fulfil email orders of physical goods
>within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
>
>Why can't Demon manage it ?
Not all companies are geared up to e-commerce. Demon is obviously a bit
of a late adopter of the wired way of doing things. I don't really see
why you expect their staff to understand email and that sort of thing.
I suggest writing out your order neatly on a piece of paper using a
fountain pen and posting it via one of those handy Royal Mail Points of
Presence that can be found on most street corners. (Don't forget to
include a postal order for the correct amount.)
-Shez.
--
______________________________________________________
Anything worth doing is worth overdoing
______________________________________________________
Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe: http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/
Paul Terry
>I don't know much about how Turnpike is marketed. Do you mean to say it
>doesn't have its own dedicated sales team?
Since Turnpike is free for use on a Demon account, they might have
little to do.
[[ Turnpike clearly does get used with other ISPs, and for that people
have to pay a trifling small sum - I doubt that the income would pay for
a sales team ]]
--
Paul Terry
Paul Giverin
<pa...@musonix.demon.co.uk> writes
before IE became "de rigueur" in connectivity software, it would have a
larger user base and income?
Richard Clayton
<pa...@giverin.co.uk> writes
>But don't you think that if it had been marketed properly in the days
>before IE became "de rigueur" in connectivity software, it would have a
>larger user base
yes
>and income?
no
(hint, ask yourself how much Microsoft software costs to purchase)
--
richard @ highwayman . com "Nothing seems the same
Still you never see the change from day to day
And no-one notices the customs slip away"
iat
><ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>
>>In article <$0bhTAAs...@p-v.bet.hx>, David
<nospam@pogoNONstickSPAM
>>.gco.uk> writes
>>
>>>...
>>> You can also call 020 8492 7050 to
>>>speak to a representative.
>>>
>>Have you tried calling this number?
>
>No - I ordered by email and I see no good reason why it should take
>nearly 3 weeks to get a simple 10-minute order done. Do you ?
>
>I see no good reason why a company should send bullshit robot fob-off
>emails to a customer when he asks about the progress of his order.
>Do you ?
>
>Loads of other companies manage to fulfil email orders of physical goods
>within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
>
>Why can't Demon manage it ?
than you want to test the supplier's system of dealing with your order?
You're getting close to cutting off your nose to spite your face!
Anne
John Underwood
(Reference: <lJYmajCV...@xerez.nospam.co.uk>)
>Not all companies are geared up to e-commerce. Demon is obviously a bit
>of a late adopter of the wired way of doing things. I don't really see
>why you expect their staff to understand email and that sort of thing.
Possibly a good point were it not that Demon is marketing what it claims
is a very good e-commerce system. They put forward good arguments for
not marketing Turnpike more widely than they do. I am puzzled, though,
why their own customer services they market their e-commerce system in
the way they do. By refusing to use it what message are they trying to
send us?
--
John Underwood
ROU I'll Zapp the First Six, You get the Rest
<ric...@highwayman.com> writes
>In article <AtGNBVAX...@giverin.co.uk>, Paul Giverin
><pa...@giverin.co.uk> writes
>
>>But don't you think that if it had been marketed properly in the days
>>before IE became "de rigueur" in connectivity software, it would have a
>>larger user base
>
>yes
>
>>and income?
>
>no
>
>(hint, ask yourself how much Microsoft software costs to purchase)
Well, Win2k is =damn= expensive (although you get IE and OE for free
along with it). Also OE is worth every penny it costs (i.e. nowt),
whereas Tpk is worth at least 2x what you charge for it.
--
ROU I'll Zapp the First Six, You get the Rest
Peter
In your recent message you wrote
>Not all companies are geared up to e-commerce. Demon is obviously a bit
>of a late adopter of the wired way of doing things. I don't really see
>why you expect their staff to understand email and that sort of thing.
>I suggest writing out your order neatly on a piece of paper using a
>fountain pen and posting it via one of those handy Royal Mail Points of
>Presence that can be found on most street corners. (Don't forget to
>include a postal order for the correct amount.)
The last time I used the Pop's you mentioned, they required the
purchase of a Penny Black. Can I suggest carrier pigeon instead which is
cheaper?
--
Peter Squires
Ben
> Eh ? Is this some sort of joke ?
>
> It is now nearly three weeks since I placed a simple order with your
> company by email in compliance with the instructions for ordering by
> email on the turnpike web site.
>
> This is now the third "robot" email of this sort I have received and
> nothing else.
A silly question but have you tried emailing Business Sales rather than
Residential Sales. Maybe nets...@demon.net might be of more use
Denis Mcmahon
That the only sensible decision ever taking in respect of the billing
system was not to try and interface the e-commerce system to it?
Rgds
Denis
Stephen Agar
<pe...@squires.worldonline.co.uk> writes
As a Royal Mail employee I should point out that if you want to transfer
large amounts of data (say a few gig) and only have a narrowband
connection - then nothing beats CDs or tapes in an envelope sent
through the post for price and speed of delivery :-)
The running costs of carrier pigeons mounts up surprisingly, and there
is a weight limit as to what they can carry (unlike a 1st class letter -
though it does get rather expensive once you get into Kgs...)
--
Stephen Agar, Brighton, UK
http://www.diplomacy-archive.com
Andy Mabbett
<ric...@highwayman.com> writes
>(hint, ask yourself how much Microsoft software costs to purchase)
One soul (excl. VAT)
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
b...@w1ngchun.demon.co.uk "Ben" writes:
> A silly question but have you tried emailing Business Sales rather than
> Residential Sales. Maybe nets...@demon.net might be of more use
nets...@demon.net are MUCH worse than useless. When I wanted to
upgrade/alter my (then) existing set-up to Showroom a year ago, I had to
prevail upon my personal acquaintanceship with a senior Demon staffer to
get any response whatsoever out of them.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of
distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr-
easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
Alex Buell
> One soul (excl. VAT)
Now do you get 17.5% of a soul? Do we call them minisouls?
--
Be careful out there.
Anonymous
iat <i...@maplepass.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The latest supported version of Turnpike is 5.01
An Metet
An Metet
Paul C. Dickie
k>, Alex Buell <alex....@tahallah.demon.co.uk> writes
>On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> One soul (excl. VAT)
>
>Now do you get 17.5% of a soul? Do we call them minisouls?
R-souls?
--
< Paul >
Bunty Pritchard Jones
<b...@dsl.co.uk> writes
>In article <998234574.5138.0...@news.demon.co.uk>
> b...@w1ngchun.demon.co.uk "Ben" writes:
>
>> A silly question but have you tried emailing Business Sales rather than
>> Residential Sales. Maybe nets...@demon.net might be of more use
>
>nets...@demon.net are MUCH worse than useless. When I wanted to
>upgrade/alter my (then) existing set-up to Showroom a year ago, I had to
>prevail upon my personal acquaintanceship with a senior Demon staffer to
>get any response whatsoever out of them.
>
I was a Demon customer for 6 years.
I recommended them to everyone. Then I made a mistake. I accidentally
answered a crosspost to a non-binary group with a binary file.
A 45k binary file.
Hardly the size of many Spam files that regularly come in.
On Dunkirk week-end two years ago - the last Dunkirk celebration - Demon
cut off my service for this "crime".
I phoned London - I begged and pleaded but to no avail.
Demon's argument was that I had previously posted a 2k binary file to a
non-binary group. Yes - I did say 2k.
It was particularly important to me because, as a retired Senior Ward
Sister in Charge of War Pensioners, many of my old soldiers were
expecting communications from me.
I explained all of this to Demon - nothing in response.
I cancelled my service.
I do not wish to be dictated to by a bully, no matter how important that
bully feels it is.
Bunty
--
Bunty Pritchard Jones
http://www.antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk
"Bunty Pritchard Jones" writes:
> In article <998247...@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
> <b...@dsl.co.uk> writes
[snip; nothing in my post, quoted or not, had the slightest relevance to
what follows]
> Well, here is my two pennorth.
> I was a Demon customer for 6 years.
> I recommended them to everyone. Then I made a mistake. I accidentally
> answered a crosspost to a non-binary group with a binary file.
How can one "accidentally" post a binary file?
> A 45k binary file.
> Hardly the size of many Spam files that regularly come in.
It matters not what size it is; binaries are anathema to newsmasters
around the planet, except when tucked up within their own hierarchies.
They are also intensely disliked by the readers of non-binary groups,
especially those who have to pay for their connectivity (sometimes, at
international telephone rates over slow modem lines); that doubtless is
why your accident was reported to ab...@demon.net.
> On Dunkirk week-end two years ago - the last Dunkirk celebration - Demon
> cut off my service for this "crime".
As their AUP, which forms a condition of the contract upon which they
provide service, entitled them to do. Indeed, had they not implemented
the terms of their AUP, other people might have had less faith in them;
this could lead to posts made via Demon being dropped from news servers
around the planet. (As is indeed happening at present, since some poorly
configured Demon customers' hosts have been hijacked into posting parts
of the HipCrime spew.)
> I phoned London - I begged and pleaded but to no avail.
> Demon's argument was that I had previously posted a 2k binary file to a
> non-binary group. Yes - I did say 2k.
OK, so after that previous occasion, I presume that you were sent a
warning (at your postm...@nodename.demon.co.uk address) that you had
transgressed the AUP, and that your posting privileges had been rescinded
until such time as you acknowledged the T&Cs which were at that time
repeated to you. Therefore after having received such a warning, it
seems more than foolhardy for you subsequently to repeat the
transgression: had I been in your shoes, I would have made VERY certain
that the software I was using could NOT commit such an "accident".
<fx: "Hearts & Flowers" scraped on an old fiddle>
> I cancelled my service.
> I do not wish to be dictated to by a bully, no matter how important that
> bully feels it is.
That "bully" is imposing its Terms and Conditions of service on a
completely impartial basis. The conditions of the news AUP are there to
protect the Internet at large from being abused by Demon's customers.
Now, your post appears to have no relevance whatsoever to the original
cause of this thread, or to posts which had previously been made to it.
d @ s
<b...@dsl.co.uk> writes
>In article <WVEannAA...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk>
> bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk
> "Bunty Pritchard Jones" writes:
>> I recommended them to everyone. Then I made a mistake. I accidentally
>> answered a crosspost to a non-binary group with a binary file.
>
>How can one "accidentally" post a binary file?
I wondered that at first then decided that BPJ had been replying in a
binary group but that clearly a cross-post to a non-binary group had
been added - not so much deliberate as careless - in previous versions
of TP it was less obvious when additional ng's had been added
maliciously.
--
dave @ stejonda
Anthony
(Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
>In article <998234574.5138.0...@news.demon.co.uk>
> b...@w1ngchun.demon.co.uk "Ben" writes:
>
>> A silly question but have you tried emailing Business Sales rather than
>> Residential Sales. Maybe nets...@demon.net might be of more use
>
>nets...@demon.net are MUCH worse than useless. When I wanted to
>upgrade/alter my (then) existing set-up to Showroom a year ago, I had to
>prevail upon my personal acquaintanceship with a senior Demon staffer to
>get any response whatsoever out of them.
For whatever reason, emailing *any* ISP's sales department is likely
to produce less than optimal results. Most salespeople employed by
ISPs are just that; salespeople, with little or no buy-in to Internet
culture. As such, they are pre-programmed to believe that the way
human beings communicate is face to face, or by telephone. Email
enquiries almost invariably get filed in the bin labelled "time
waster".
--
Anthony
ant...@catfish.demon.co.uk
Anthony
<pe...@squires.worldonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>The last time I used the Pop's you mentioned, they required the
>purchase of a Penny Black. Can I suggest carrier pigeon instead which is
>cheaper?
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt?number=1149
--
Anthony
ant...@catfish.demon.co.uk
Phil Harrison
<pa...@giverin.co.uk> writes
>In article <ns6Iw$AOOTf...@generac.co.uk>, Phil Harrison
><ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>>
>>Dunno. Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so important
>>to you?
>>
>Well if a leading ISP can't conduct a transaction like this by e-mail
>then perhaps the complainant has got a valid point.
>
Don't get me wrong, I also think it is ridiculous that Demon can't
conduct this transaction online (especially when they are promoting
e-commerce products such as Demon PowerTrader). I am just questioning
the wisdom of waiting three weeks for an e-mail response from Demon
rather than either phoning the number provided or abandoning the attempt
and purchasing something else.
[f.u. Set to demon.service]
--
Phil Harrison
John Underwood
demon.ip.support.turnpike
(Reference: <998285...@dsl.co.uk>)
>How can one "accidentally" post a binary file?
One could, perhaps, deliberately post a binary file to a binary group
but, accidentally, not notice that the article to which it was a reply
had been cross-posted to a non-binary group. It is a mistake, yes.
Possibly, though, some of the blame could fairly be placed on the
shoulders of the original cross-poster.
--
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to jo...@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
Jack Howard
In article <e0ed590fc58758f8...@freedom.gmsociety.org>, An
Metet <anm...@freedom.gmsociety.org> writes
>The latest supported version of Turnpike is 5.01
Is this a variation on that "more pics of net" nonsense that keeps
popping up on uk.net? Some kind of auto-posting bot gone wrong?
--
- Jack Howard, speaking for himself.
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
Tony Williams
d @ s <stej...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> I wondered that at first then decided that BPJ had been replying in a
> binary group but that clearly a cross-post to a non-binary group had
> been added - not so much deliberate as careless - in previous versions
> of TP it was less obvious when additional ng's had been added
> maliciously.
The question that runs through my mind there is why
should *any* newsreader software allow a reply to a
newsgroup, that re-sends the received attachment,
(without some effort, and a serious series of "are
you really sure you want to do this?" safety traps).
--
Tony Williams.
David
<ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>In article <yHjhbIAC...@giverin.co.uk>, Paul Giverin
><pa...@giverin.co.uk> writes
>>In article <ns6Iw$AOOTf...@generac.co.uk>, Phil Harrison
>><ab...@generac.co.uk> writes
>>>
>>>Dunno. Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so important
>>>to you?
>>>
>>Well if a leading ISP can't conduct a transaction like this by e-mail
>>then perhaps the complainant has got a valid point.
>>
>Don't get me wrong, I also think it is ridiculous that Demon can't
>conduct this transaction online (especially when they are promoting
>e-commerce products such as Demon PowerTrader). I am just questioning
>the wisdom of waiting three weeks for an e-mail response from Demon
>rather than either phoning the number provided or abandoning the attempt
>and purchasing something else.
>
>[f.u. Set to demon.service]
To answer your question, Phil, I wanted to see how long it would take.
If Demon can't (or don't want to) supply by email they shouldn't offer
that method of purchase on the Turnpike Website.
I was one of the original purchasers of Turnpike back in early 1996. I
have a copy of ver 1.1 on floppy disc.
Any Offers ?
--
My Sig is on holiday in France..
David
<web...@rainsbury.com> writes
>Could it be because Demon is an ISP which, and I'm guessing here cos I
>don't know the history, sells turnpike as a minor sideline after they
>discovered they had a decent product, rather than a retailer. Amazon and
>Maplin sell things, it's how they make their money. Demon are an ISP,
>THAT's how they make their money, until they start promoting it
>(something I think they should do as it rocks) Turnpike is just a
>sideline.
So that makes it ok to give a customer a sh*t service ?
I suspect, having had dealings with Demon the ISP, that it reflects
Demon's general approach to business.
David
writes
>You have had it within your grasp to have the order fulfilled, but you
>prefer to be bloody-minded - this too is your right
Man-o-man get a grip -- you have been working for p.i.t.a. for too long.
You have a police mentality. No wonder the police have I.T. problems if
that is your attitude.
Why is it "bloody-minded" to place an order by email as offered by the
Turnpike web site and then have to wait weeks because of poor service ?
>
>But please put up or shut up about these mythical other companies from
>whom you have ordered by email.
They are not mythical at all. They are companies who offer a superb
service by email from a web site.
You said "put-up or shut-up", so here goes: My four-year old son ripped
up a children's library "book" on a Saturday morning. My wife went to
the Amazon web site armed with the ISBN number. Order placed on a
Saturday morning, delivered first thing Monday morning.
Demon is a dinosaur if it can't fulfil orders promptly by email. It
won't survive in the future.
>
>More to the point do it ion the right news group. Your posts do not
>relate to how to connect via IP using the Turnpike software, they relate
>solely to the level of service that you have received from Demon
Lighten up.
David
<b...@w1ngchun.demon.co.uk> writes
I followed the instructions given on the Turnpike web site.
I wouldn't dream of supposing that I know better.
Karel Hladky
.co.uk> writes
>Demon is a dinosaur if it can't fulfil orders promptly by email. It
>won't survive in the future.
You have to understand that Demon is a money laundering scheme thought
up by the Scottish Masons. Actually selling anything to the punters is
an unnecessary hassle to be avoided at all cost :)
Karel
jerry weeks
.co.uk> writes
>/snip
>Eh ? Is this some sort of joke ?
>
>It is now nearly three weeks since I placed a simple order with your
>company by email in compliance with the instructions for ordering by
>email on the turnpike web site.
>David Husband
Only 3 weeks? I tried to buy 2 copies of Turnpike last year. I used the
print-out form AND sent a cheque! No response to date.
Jerry
-----------
Jerry Weeks
jerry...@dorchesterhouse.co.uk
Dorchester Office Centres Limited
Dorchester House, Station Road, Letchworth. Herts. SG6 3AW
Tel: 01462 482880 - Fax: 01462 482616
Serviced office space - just 40 minutes from London by road or rail.
neuro
news:wJG1zJAS...@p-v.bet.hx...> [snip]
> >But please put up or shut up about these mythical other companies from
> >whom you have ordered by email.
>
> They are not mythical at all. They are companies who offer a superb
> service by email from a web site.
I think the rather pedantic point being made here is that you do not email
your credit/debit card or other payment details to amazon, or whoever. You
transmit them as an HTTP PUT request via your browser, which is encrypted
over SSL. No customer->supplier transaction takes place by email.
The only other methods by which amazon will accept payment is by selecting
"cheque" (through post, hence a longer delay than the top and tail of a
weekend) through the encrypted web interface, or by telephoning/faxing your
credit/debit card details.
See http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/browse/-/help/512186 or
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/browse/-/help/512180 for more
information.
> [snip]
> Order placed on a Saturday morning, delivered first thing Monday morning.
again, a slight difference between an UK ISP who happen to sell to a limited
audience with a limited product line, and a major world commerce corporation
who have multi-football-pitch sized warehouses around the world and a
well-proven and run-in e-commerce infrastructure.
--
_ __ ___ _ _ _ __ ___ @well.com William Anderson www.well.com/~neuro
| '_ \ / _ \ | | | '__/ _ \ "The thing I love most about deadlines is the
| | | | __/ |_| | | | (_) | wonderful WHOOSHing sound they make as they
|_| |_|\___|\__,_|_| \___/ go past." - Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
michael lefevre
> In article <CJj5jEA6...@p-v.bet.hx>, David
> <nos...@pogoNONstickSPAM.co.uk> wrote
>>Loads of other companies manage to fulfil email orders of physical
goods
>>within 24 hours, Amazon, Maplin, etc; the list is endless.
>
> You keep claiming this, but every single example you have quoted is of
> an order that was placed by a means *other than* email.
>
> You ordered from the Maplin web site - so you did not order by email
> You ordered from an Amazon web site - that is not an order by email
you're being picky... not that i have any general objections to that, but
if you replace "email" with "online" in David's sentence above, then his
point holds... the fact that a company providing e-commerce solutions has
no clue how to do e-commerce is a little silly...
[snip]
> More to the point do it ion the right news group. Your posts do not
> relate to how to connect via IP using the Turnpike software, they
relate
> solely to the level of service that you have received from Demon
i'm not sure that's entirely fair... if, for example, Demon decided to
cease supplying turnpike completely, i would have thought that was of
relevance to d.i.s.t... many of the posts in d.i.s.t are not requests for
support relating to connecting via IP using the turnpike software,
although that appears to be the specified purpose of the group... i would
suggest that if you're going to be strict then, for example, turnpike
product announcements and discussions of features in the beta are also
offtopic...
the turnpike website says you can order by email... it may be more
accurate to say "to order, please phone demon sales, and if the person on
the other end of the phone doesn't know what a turnpike universal license
is, please persist in arguing until such times as they are able to supply
the product"...
--
michael
Andy
<je...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
[]
>Only 3 weeks? I tried to buy 2 copies of Turnpike last year. I used the
>print-out form AND sent a cheque! No response to date.
>
over 6 months old. Or it *should* be...
--
Andy [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society]
For Austrian philately <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps/>
For Lupus <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus/>
For my other interests <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/>
Julian Barker
John Underwood <jo...@the-underwoods.org.uk> wrote
>On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 at 16:09:02 you wrote:
> (Reference: <ns6Iw$AOOTf...@generac.co.uk>)
>
>
>>Dunno. Why is conducting this transaction purely via e-mail so
>>important to you?
>
>
>However, I have friends in the States who want to purchase keys. Why
>should they have to make transatlantic telephone calls.
I agree. A friend of mine ended up making several transatlantic calls
before he could obtain a Turnpike license. It irritated him greatly.
--
Julian Barker
There is a coherent plan in the universe,
though I don't know what it is a plan for.
- Fred Hoyle
Julian Barker
Al Rainsbury <web...@rainsbury.com> wrote
>>>>...
>>>> You can also call 020 8492 7050 to
>>>>speak to a representative.
>>>>
>>>Have you tried calling this number?
>>
Although two years ago, my experience of buying by phone from Demon was
not unlike nailing jelly to a wall.
I used Fax, e-mail and phone to make my multi-user key purchase. No
doubt someone will suggest that as I had their address I should have
called in person!
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
nos...@pogoNONstickSPAM.co.uk "David" writes:
> They are not mythical at all. They are companies who offer a superb
> service by email from a web site.
>
> You said "put-up or shut-up", so here goes: My four-year old son ripped
> up a children's library "book" on a Saturday morning. My wife went to
> the Amazon web site armed with the ISBN number. Order placed on a
> Saturday morning, delivered first thing Monday morning.
She did NOT "place the order by e-mail". She placed the order by
interaction with HTML forms on a website that uses user input to alter
both the pages displayed and the company's internal order database.
FWIW, I've found that communicating TO amazon.co.uk via e-mail is worse
than useless: one does not even get an auto-acknowledgement, even when
reporting to them that they are spamming non-existent usernames at my
domain. (This is because some stupid bitch in Humberside has mistakenly
registered her mailbox as som...@home.dsl.co.uk, and I get mail for all
subdomains of dsl.co.uk. Next time they do it, the complaint goes to
their uplink.)
> Demon is a dinosaur if it can't fulfil orders promptly by email. It
> won't survive in the future.
Tell me ONE other company with whom you have successfully placed an order
using e-mail (NOT using a web-site).
Julian Barker
Bunty Pritchard Jones <bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote
>I do not wish to be dictated to by a bully, no matter how important that
>bully feels it is.
I do not sense a hint of humility on your part for your mistake, which
is most telling.
Julian Barker
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <b...@dsl.co.uk> wrote
>
>Tell me ONE other company with whom you have successfully placed an order
>using e-mail (NOT using a web-site).
>
I regularly buy secondhand books and antique lithographs from the US. I
have always done business with a variety of companies selling such items
exclusively by e-mail.
Will Dean
news:998334...@dsl.co.uk...
>
> She did NOT "place the order by a-mail". She placed the order by
> interaction with HTML forms on a website that uses user input to alter
> both the pages displayed and the company's internal order database.
That's undoubtedly true for Amazon, but the submission of many web forms
just results in an email of their content being sent somewhere. Why should
anyone care what the difference is? Why would people ignore those sales
enquiries that arrive by email but not those injected straight into a
database? It's a strawman.
> Tell me ONE other company with whom you have successfully placed an order
> using e-mail (NOT using a web-site).
People successfully place orders with me using email all the time. _I_
wouldn't publish an email address and then not reply to a sales enquiry on
it.
Demon's policy of publishing email sales contact details which they then
ignore (while they spout specious defences about the telephone being quicker
and easier) is indefensible. And that's pretty much the end of the story.
Will
Robert
<ant...@catfish.demon.co.uk> wrote
>On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:46:35 +0100, in demon.service Peter
><pe...@squires.worldonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>The last time I used the Pop's you mentioned, they required the
>>purchase of a Penny Black. Can I suggest carrier pigeon instead which is
>>cheaper?
>
>http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt?number=1149
>
--
Robert W98SE 4+2GB out of 13 GB HDD, 256MB Ram, Celeron 434
SiS620 M/B with integrated video & sound
michael lefevre
> In article <wJG1zJAS...@p-v.bet.hx>
> nos...@pogoNONstickSPAM.co.uk "David" writes:
>
>> They are not mythical at all. They are companies who offer a superb
>> service by email from a web site.
>>
>> You said "put-up or shut-up", so here goes: My four-year old son ripped
>> up a children's library "book" on a Saturday morning. My wife went to
>> the Amazon web site armed with the ISBN number. Order placed on a
>> Saturday morning, delivered first thing Monday morning.
>
> She did NOT "place the order by e-mail". She placed the order by
> interaction with HTML forms on a website that uses user input to alter
> both the pages displayed and the company's internal order database.
wow... that's amazing technology... maybe one day there will be one of
those "HTML forms" on a "website" which allows someone to order
turnpike...
> Tell me ONE other company with whom you have successfully placed an order
> using e-mail (NOT using a web-site).
just for the record, last week i successfully enquired about the price of
an item, and then placed an order for it, via email, with insight.com...
it isn't an issue whether amazon deal successfully with orders by
email... the point David was trying to make is that amazon make it
possible to order their product online, while turnpike don't... of course
being d.s everyone jumped on his mistake of email vs web order
submissions...
--
michael
John Underwood
demon.ip.support.turnpike
(Reference: <SwiPZmBR...@meriones.gerbils.co.uk>)
>I used Fax, e-mail and phone to make my multi-user key purchase. No
>doubt someone will suggest that as I had their address I should have
>called in person!
The most successful transaction I ever made with Demon involved just
that - I subscribed as a customer by popping round the corner to Gateway
House [1] and spoke to someone who opened our account - my wife popped
across the road to our bank and drew the cash for the initial payments
(including Turnpike). All was concluded in about 10 minutes.
[1] Well one or two corners and about a 30 minute walk.
David Bolt
<ro...@carewg.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <998148142.29883.0...@news.demon.co.uk>, M E
>Kenchington <m...@kentaur.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>> This morning I received an email from helpdesk@demon warning me that
>>Red
>>> ROMP is having the plug pulled at the end of the month and would I
>>> please start using Purple ROMP, because their log showed that I'm
>>still
>>> using Red ROMP.
>>> However as I have been using Purple ROMP exclusively and daily since
>>> August 2nd 6.08pm, for that reason, this does make me wonder at the
>>> speed of internal communications at Demon.
>>
>>I can beat that. I had one of those emails too. I have been using the
>>PCP ISDN number exclusively since April 3rd, and before that I was using
>>the PCP Analogue number from early October 2000. So the sample log they
>>apparently made 'last week' appears to be in a timewarp.
>>
>Of course!
>Silly me - they didn't mean 'last week as of now', they meant 'during
>the last week of February' or thereabouts.
Or their definition of "week" is radically different to that of everyone
else.
I received one of these mails and requested a copy of the times and
dates where I dialled the numbers to be discontinued siting the fact
that since I was the only person here that could dial up Demon [0], any
access using those numbers indicated an internal security breach and I'd
like some evidence.
I received a reply stating that the mail
<quote>
>was sent to all customers that may have had access to the affected numbers.
>This was to enable all users to carry out the updating of their dial-up
>connection prior to the disconnection of the affected numbers at the end of
>August.
>
>We apologise for any misunderstanding or inconvenience caused, and trust
>this clarifies the situation.
</quote>
Why this wasn't stated in the original mail, I don't know, but it would
have saved me from having to check whether someone had indeed breached
my security :|
[0] I use a Linux box to do the dial-ups and have used the analogue
G4/G5 until approximately 2 weeks ago, when I switched to the ISDN G4/G5
numbers.
Regards,
David Bolt
--
A3010 4Mb + A4000 4Mb RiscOS 3.11 |Member of the RC5 Team Acorn
AMD Duron/650 256Mb Win98 |cracking keys at 4.8Mkeys/sec
AMD K6-2/450 64Mb SuSE 7.0 |
AMD K6-2/500 64Mb SuSE 7.0 |http://www.distributed.net/
Andy
<Jul...@rodent.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
>Bunty Pritchard Jones <bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote
>
>>I do not wish to be dictated to by a bully, no matter how important that
>>bully feels it is.
>
>I do not sense a hint of humility on your part for your mistake, which
>is most telling.
>
Bunty Pritchard Jones
>In message <998285...@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
><b...@dsl.co.uk> writes
>>In article <WVEannAA...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk>
>> bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk
>> "Bunty Pritchard Jones" writes:
>
>>> I recommended them to everyone. Then I made a mistake. I accidentally
>>> answered a crosspost to a non-binary group with a binary file.
>>
>>How can one "accidentally" post a binary file?
>
>binary group but that clearly a cross-post to a non-binary group had
>been added - not so much deliberate as careless - in previous versions
>of TP it was less obvious when additional ng's had been added
>maliciously.
>
notice that in the midst of a long list of music groups, one of them was
non-binary.
As the previous mistake I had made was four years earlier by posting a
2K text file, I still think that Demon's action was extreme.
Bunty
--
Bunty Pritchard Jones
http://www.antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk
Bunty Pritchard Jones
<to...@ledelec.demon.co.uk> writes
Bunty Pritchard Jones
<ab...@the-underwoods.org.uk> writes
>On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 at 05:29:08, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote in
>demon.ip.support.turnpike
>(Reference: <998285...@dsl.co.uk>)
>
>
>>How can one "accidentally" post a binary file?
>
>One could, perhaps, deliberately post a binary file to a binary group
>but, accidentally, not notice that the article to which it was a reply
>had been cross-posted to a non-binary group. It is a mistake, yes.
>Possibly, though, some of the blame could fairly be placed on the
>shoulders of the original cross-poster.
newsgroup list only contained three groups - had I hit the Edit news
header button - I would have seen that alt.music had been added to the
list.
Denis Mcmahon
>>How can one "accidentally" post a binary file?
>
>One could, perhaps, deliberately post a binary file to a binary group
>but, accidentally, not notice that the article to which it was a reply
>had been cross-posted to a non-binary group. It is a mistake, yes.
>Possibly, though, some of the blame could fairly be placed on the
>shoulders of the original cross-poster.
It is however an easy situation to prevent if you tell your software
never to cross post.
Rgds
Denis
--
Denis McMahon / +44 7802 468949 / de...@pickaxe.demon.co.uk
Entry conditions for killfile include top-post, advert, bin
I block the [a.b.c.*] of any UC/BE relay.
Usenet posts > 100 lines are not retrieved.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
news...@michaellefevre.com "michael lefevre" writes:
> it isn't an issue whether amazon deal successfully with orders by
> email... the point David was trying to make is that amazon make it
> possible to order their product online, while turnpike don't... of course
> being d.s everyone jumped on his mistake of email vs web order
> submissions...
Well, of course: as you say, it wouldn't be d.s otherwise.
FWIW, I do have sympathy with the original complainant, especially if the
web-site for Turnpike explicitly gives a mailto URI. However, his dogged
insistance that he was placing orders with Amazon and Maplin "by e-mail"
was obviously at variance with the facts...
David
<b...@dsl.co.uk> writes
>In article <99834518...@eos.uk.clara.net>
> news...@michaellefevre.com "michael lefevre" writes:
>
>> it isn't an issue whether amazon deal successfully with orders by
>> email... the point David was trying to make is that amazon make it
>> possible to order their product online, while turnpike don't... of course
>> being d.s everyone jumped on his mistake of email vs web order
>> submissions...
>
>Well, of course: as you say, it wouldn't be d.s otherwise.
>
>FWIW, I do have sympathy with the original complainant, especially if the
>web-site for Turnpike explicitly gives a mailto URI. However, his dogged
>insistance that he was placing orders with Amazon and Maplin "by e-mail"
>was obviously at variance with the facts...
Fairy Muff
But is there really any practical difference to ordering by email or
ordering off the web page ?
In both cases the vendor needs to be e-commerce savvy with a system set
up to cope.
I have placed orders with other companies by email and had equally good
results (and some bad results). I will have a look through my archives.
Thank you to all who have responded to this thread. Your input is
valuable and is noted.
Phil Harrison
Pritchard Jones <bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
>That is correct. I answered a request for a Karaoke file and failed to
>notice that in the midst of a long list of music groups, one of them was
>non-binary.
Wouldn't it have been better to e-mail it to the person who requested
it, or at least put it on your website and post a link?
[f.u. Set to demon.service]
--
Phil Harrison
Will Dean
news:3b822c98...@midair.co.uk...
>
> I agree; although isn't that defence more usually applied to support
> issues? I recall MM in this group perennially advocating use of the
> telephone, on the grounds that 'to-ing and fro-ing' in email is not so
> efficient and takes much longer. Of course, this rather begs the
> question of why these email contact addresses exist at all.
I've had MM apply it to netsales@, which as several people have noted
doesn't work at all. If you don't want to take sales enquiries by email,
don't publish an email address for sales enquiries. If your product is too
complex to sell by email, don't publish an email address for sales
enquiries.
It was particularly irritating as the original email to netsales in my case
was a straightforward list of questions (one per paragraph) which could have
easily answered in about 30 seconds. There was no need for rambling
discussion or lots of to and fro.
The suggestion that it was somehow our fault for using their mail-to link
was reminiscent of dealing with a bank. Fortunately, there is still a bit
more differentiation between ISPs than between banks, so we were able to go
elsewhere. It's a pity, as Demon wasn't originally a bunch of bankers.
> If Demon have no intention of replying to sales enquiries on similar
> grounds, let them substitute Dave Null with an autoresponder message
> to that effect.
Quite. Or not publish fake email addresses in the first place.
> Yes, but I think the point that many are making is not so much a
> defence of Demon as urging acceptance of the blockage, and advising to
> route around it.
Why? I don't think anyone should make the slightest effort to buy something
from anyone who can't be bothered to sell it. If everyone did this, it
would tighten the feedback between crap sales service and having no
customers - we'd all benefit.
The only reason one would publish a sales mail alias and then not respond to
it would be because you didn't care about getting new business. IME there
is a strong link between not caring about new customers and not caring about
existing ones.
Will
Bryan
article<SwiPZmBR...@meriones.gerbils.co.uk> onMon, 20 Aug 2001 at
21:10:57, I noticed that Julian Barker <Jul...@rodent.demon.co.uk>
wrote.
>
>
>Al Rainsbury <web...@rainsbury.com> wrote
>>>>>...
>>>>> You can also call 020 8492 7050 to
>>>>>speak to a representative.
>>>>>
>>>>Have you tried calling this number?
>>>
>
>Although two years ago, my experience of buying by phone from Demon was
>not unlike nailing jelly to a wall.
>
>I used Fax, e-mail and phone to make my multi-user key purchase. No
>doubt someone will suggest that as I had their address I should have
>called in person!
>
purchase Turnpike) - They then sent me to another office a few miles up
the road where I sat for ages waiting while they processed it (and they
told me they were doing me a favour as *really* the office which dealt
with this was out of London.
--
Brymor Web http://www.brymorweb.co.uk
Highgate Cemetery http://www.highgatecemetery.co.uk
Public Key http://www.pgp.uk.demon.net - 0xCC6237E9
Bryan
article<SP+9l2BF...@the-underwoods.org.uk> onMon, 20 Aug 2001 at
23:51:49, I noticed that John Underwood <ab...@the-underwoods.org.uk>
wrote.
>On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 at 21:10:57, Julian Barker wrote in
>demon.ip.support.turnpike
>(Reference: <SwiPZmBR...@meriones.gerbils.co.uk>)
>
>
>>I used Fax, e-mail and phone to make my multi-user key purchase. No
>>doubt someone will suggest that as I had their address I should have
>>called in person!
>
>The most successful transaction I ever made with Demon involved just
>that - I subscribed as a customer by popping round the corner to
>Gateway House [1] and spoke to someone who opened our account - my wife
>popped across the road to our bank and drew the cash for the initial
>payments (including Turnpike). All was concluded in about 10 minutes.
>
they no longer appear to take money at Gateway House.
Bryan
article<WVEannAA...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk> onMon, 20 Aug 2001
at 01:21:20, I noticed that Bunty Pritchard Jones
<bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote.
>In article <998247...@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
><b...@dsl.co.uk> writes
>>In article <998234574.5138.0...@news.demon.co.uk>
>> b...@w1ngchun.demon.co.uk "Ben" writes:
>>
>>> A silly question but have you tried emailing Business Sales rather than
>>> Residential Sales. Maybe nets...@demon.net might be of more use
>>
>>nets...@demon.net are MUCH worse than useless. When I wanted to
>>upgrade/alter my (then) existing set-up to Showroom a year ago, I had to
>>prevail upon my personal acquaintanceship with a senior Demon staffer to
>>get any response whatsoever out of them.
>>
>Well, here is my two pennorth.
>I was a Demon customer for 6 years.
>I recommended them to everyone. Then I made a mistake. I accidentally
>answered a crosspost to a non-binary group with a binary file.
>Hardly the size of many Spam files that regularly come in.
Join the club, on a newsgroup I and someone else posted a PGP encrypted
message to demonstrate to some people who were curious how it looks.
Demon then cut off my service for posting what they called a binary
(i.e. an encrypted message) and I had to write them a personal letter of
apology and promise not to do it again before they restored my ability
to post to USENET again.
That's one of the reasons I didn't renew my subscription to them.
Jack Howard
In article <4aad008...@ledelec.demon.co.uk>, Tony Williams
<to...@ledelec.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <jiTfHYAs...@stejonda.gmx.co.uk>,
> d @ s <stej...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I wondered that at first then decided that BPJ had been replying in a
>> binary group but that clearly a cross-post to a non-binary group had
>> been added - not so much deliberate as careless - in previous versions
>> of TP it was less obvious when additional ng's had been added
>> maliciously.
>
> The question that runs through my mind there is why
> should *any* newsreader software allow a reply to a
> newsgroup, that re-sends the received attachment,
> (without some effort, and a serious series of "are
> you really sure you want to do this?" safety traps).
From my reading of it that's not what happened. Bunty was replying to a
post, in a binary group, with a binary file - not re-sending an
attachment received with the original post. She failed to notice that
the original post was cross-posted to a non binary group - an easy
enough mistake to make.
--
- Jack Howard, speaking for himself.
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
michael lefevre
> In article <CnH$brCOXX...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk>, Bunty
> Pritchard Jones <bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
>
>>That is correct. I answered a request for a Karaoke file and failed to
>>notice that in the midst of a long list of music groups, one of them was
>>non-binary.
>
> Wouldn't it have been better to e-mail it to the person who requested
> it
depends if that would prompt half a dozen further "me too" posts or
emails...
> or at least put it on your website and post a link?
a reasonable alternative... but not sure it would be appreciated in a
binary newsgroup if instead of posting binaries people started posting
links to binaries, requiring those wanting the binaries to do something
different from their usual practice of downloading the newsgroup...
--
michael
Dr John Stockton
news:demon.ip.support.turnpike, Julian Barker
<Jul...@rodent.demon.co.uk> wrote at Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:10:57 :-
>
>Although two years ago, my experience of buying by phone from Demon was
>not unlike nailing jelly to a wall.
>
>I used Fax, e-mail and phone to make my multi-user key purchase. No
>doubt someone will suggest that as I had their address I should have
>called in person!
>
ISTM that Demon Sales is too large to handle this efficiently.
It seems to be only a matter of accepting some form of money and maybe a
bit of data, and then sending out a Magic String, presumably generated
by computer.
Surely this could be done by some small business in D.....g, W.....m, or
elsewhere; if appropriate, a person could be employed part-time to do
it. Or it could be contracted out to an organisation with fewer
distractions.
However, things may be planned to change when TP6 leaves beta.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. j...@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL: http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Proper <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (SonOfRFC1036)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SonOfRFC1036)
E. J. Jewell
<Bryan@[127.0.0.1]> writes
>>
>>The most successful transaction I ever made with Demon involved just
>>that - I subscribed as a customer by popping round the corner to
>>Gateway House [1] and spoke to someone who opened our account - my
>>wife popped across the road to our bank and drew the cash for the
>>initial payments (including Turnpike). All was concluded in about 10 minutes.
>>
>That's how I originally signed up - but as another post by me indicates
>they no longer appear to take money at Gateway House.
>
In the pre-Thus days it was easy-peasy to get a Universal licence by
e-mail. The CD and orange manuals arrived in the post the next day.
Those were the days. ;-))
--
E. J. Jewell <mailto:eje...@free.fr>
<URL:http://apsc.free.fr/> Andorran Philatelic Study Circle
Personal page: <URL:http://ejewell.free.fr/>
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
den...@pickaxe.demon.co.uk "Denis Mcmahon" writes:
> John Underwood <ab...@the-underwoods.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >>How can one "accidentally" post a binary file?
> >
> >One could, perhaps, deliberately post a binary file to a binary group
> >but, accidentally, not notice that the article to which it was a reply
> >had been cross-posted to a non-binary group. It is a mistake, yes.
> >Possibly, though, some of the blame could fairly be placed on the
> >shoulders of the original cross-poster.
>
> It is however an easy situation to prevent if you tell your software
> never to cross post.
However, that has other ramifications, particularly fragmentation of
threads.
Bryan
article<0E55+dnB...@ejewell.free.fr> onTue, 21 Aug 2001 at
18:06:25, I noticed that E. J. Jewell
<News...@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk> wrote.
>In message <lqnT6zGS...@brymor.freeserve.co.uk>, Bryan
><Bryan@[127.0.0.1]> writes
>>>
>>>The most successful transaction I ever made with Demon involved just
>>>that - I subscribed as a customer by popping round the corner to
>>>Gateway House [1] and spoke to someone who opened our account - my
>>>wife popped across the road to our bank and drew the cash for the
>>>initial payments (including Turnpike). All was concluded in about 10 minutes.
>>>
>>That's how I originally signed up - but as another post by me
>>indicates they no longer appear to take money at Gateway House.
>>
>One suspects anyway that the transaction might have been some time ago.
>In the pre-Thus days it was easy-peasy to get a Universal licence by
>e-mail. The CD and orange manuals arrived in the post the next day.
>Those were the days. ;-))
Yep, funnily enough on my previous ISP I was "allocated" a user name so
was taken aback when they asked me what I wanted - the only thing I
could think of off the top of my head was my previous one which is how I
became mor...@demon.co.uk. By the time I got home and installed
Turnpike I was already on line.
Julian Barker
John Underwood <ab...@the-underwoods.org.uk> wrote
>On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 at 21:10:57, Julian Barker wrote in
>demon.ip.support.turnpike
>(Reference: <SwiPZmBR...@meriones.gerbils.co.uk>)
>
>
>>I used Fax, e-mail and phone to make my multi-user key purchase. No
>>doubt someone will suggest that as I had their address I should have
>>called in person!
>
>The most successful transaction I ever made with Demon involved just
>that - I subscribed as a customer by popping round the corner to
>Gateway House [1] and spoke to someone who opened our account -
>my wife popped across the road to our bank and drew the cash for the
>initial payments (including Turnpike). All was concluded in about 10
>minutes.
>
>[1] Well one or two corners and about a 30 minute walk.
Still too much trouble!
I opened my Demon account by telephoning a number in October 1994,
giving credit card details, choosing a node name, and then choosing
another when that was taken. I was then give download instructions over
the phone to set things up - for DOS of course! The conversation took
five minutes.
In 1996 I wanted to buy Turnpike after reading about it in Demon
Dispatches. I rang up, gave credit card details and a delivery address.
All took about three minutes. The boxed copy of TP arrived in the post
the morning after next.
Why are things now so difficult?
Julian Barker
Andy <an...@kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk> wrote
>In article <kABClaEe...@meriones.gerbils.co.uk>, Julian Barker
><Jul...@rodent.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>
>>Bunty Pritchard Jones <bpritch...@antiques9.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote
>>
>>>I do not wish to be dictated to by a bully, no matter how important that
>>>bully feels it is.
>>
>>I do not sense a hint of humility on your part for your mistake, which
>>is most telling.
>>
>Judge not, that ye be not judged...
The rules were broken. Rules that exist for a reason. If I break rules I
am subject to, I expect to be contrite, even if I disagree with the
rule.
In this case, Bunty's original message put all the blame on Demon for
having the rule in the first place. A rule which makes a lot of sense.
Her later message puts blame on Turnpike, in which case, she should be
posting to the Turnpike Newsgroup and not blaming Demon.
In my opinion, anyone who posts any binary to any newsgroup should know
what they are doing before they do so. In the seven years I have used
Demon, and the five and a half years I have used Turnpike, I have always
taken care to always post binaries in a new thread created by me.
Tony Williams
Jack Howard <ja...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote:
> <spamtrapped - domain is stormshadow dot co dot uk>
> In article <4aad008...@ledelec.demon.co.uk>, Tony Williams
> <to...@ledelec.demon.co.uk> writes
> > The question that runs through my mind there is why
> > should *any* newsreader software allow a reply to a
> > newsgroup, that re-sends the received attachment,
> > (without some effort, and a serious series of "are
> > you really sure you want to do this?" safety traps).
> From my reading of it that's not what happened. Bunty
> was replying to a post, in a binary group, with a binary
> file - not re-sending an attachment received with the
> original post. She failed to notice that the original
> post was cross-posted to a non binary group - an easy
> enough mistake to make.
Yes, I read it the wrong way in her original post, and
understood that when a later post clarified what she
had done..... but I hoped no one would notice. :-)
--
Tony Williams.
Jim Crowther
<Jul...@rodent.demon.co.uk> writes
>In 1996 I wanted to buy Turnpike after reading about it in Demon
>Dispatches. I rang up, gave credit card details and a delivery address.
>All took about three minutes. The boxed copy of TP arrived in the post
>the morning after next.
>
>Why are things now so difficult?
Likewise(ish) - late '96 phoned Demon, within two minutes on-line and
working, Demon Internet Suite arrived a day later, TP up and going, no
hassles at all.
Why the hassles now?
And (TP specific) What are they going to do about overseas sales with
no e-mail?
--
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther "It's MY computer"
<http://pchelpers.org>
<http://website.lineone.net/~legal.defence.fund/>
Paul Shirley
<ab...@the-underwoods.org.uk> writes
>>I used Fax, e-mail and phone to make my multi-user key purchase. No
>>doubt someone will suggest that as I had their address I should have
>>called in person!
>
>The most successful transaction I ever made with Demon involved just that - I
>subscribed as a customer by popping round the corner to Gateway House [1] and
>spoke to someone who opened our account - my wife popped across the road to our
>bank and drew the cash for the initial payments (including Turnpike). All was
>concluded in about 10 minutes.
My last attempt to deal with them is why I have a paid licence for TP.
Unfortunately I actually phoned to renew my service subscription ;(
After more than a year of legal threats about my unpaid subscription
only a direct mail to Malcolm Muir stopped the hassle. Something to
consider trying...
Demon/Turnpike have had awful sales support *from the start* when it
actually mattered to them. Why expect it to get better?
--
Paul Shirley
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
$!bryan!$@brymor.freeserve.co.uk "Bryan" writes:
> Yep, funnily enough on my previous ISP I was "allocated" a user name so
> was taken aback when they asked me what I wanted - the only thing I
> could think of off the top of my head was my previous one which is how I
> became mor...@demon.co.uk. By the time I got home and installed
> Turnpike I was already on line.
Ahem! You were NEVER (officially) mor...@demon.co.uk. You might (if
you had chosen the NODENAME morris4) have been anyt...@morris4.demon.co.uk.
If you were stupid enough to tell people that your e-mail address was
mor...@demon.co.uk, not only was it likely that you could lose some
incoming mail, but also you imposed an additional load upon Demon's
systems. TTBOMK, no one was ever given a @demon.co.uk address (unless
perhaps staffers had such addresses vice @demon.net), and anyone
mistakenly sending mail to such a domain was lucky to get through.
Or was that just a typo?
Denis Mcmahon
>In article <4f64otc9d3ob8g4pu...@4ax.com>
> den...@pickaxe.demon.co.uk "Denis Mcmahon" writes:
>
>> John Underwood <ab...@the-underwoods.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >>How can one "accidentally" post a binary file?
>> >
>> >One could, perhaps, deliberately post a binary file to a binary group
>> >but, accidentally, not notice that the article to which it was a reply
>> >had been cross-posted to a non-binary group. It is a mistake, yes.
>> >Possibly, though, some of the blame could fairly be placed on the
>> >shoulders of the original cross-poster.
>>
>> It is however an easy situation to prevent if you tell your software
>> never to cross post.
>
>However, that has other ramifications, particularly fragmentation of
>threads.
Yes, but then whoever introduces the xp should set a single fu. That I
will honour. What I won't honour, ever, is a string of xp with no fu.
Under those conditions, I reply in-received-group only.
Rgds
Denis
--
Denis McMahon
Mobile: +44 7802 468949
Email: de...@pickaxe.demon.co.uk
I always trim ng when posting!
Bryan
21 Aug 2001 at 23:23:25, I noticed that Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
<b...@dsl.co.uk> wrote.
>In article <wk62pYAm...@brymor.freeserve.co.uk>
> $!bryan!$@brymor.freeserve.co.uk "Bryan" writes:
>
>> Yep, funnily enough on my previous ISP I was "allocated" a user name so
>> was taken aback when they asked me what I wanted - the only thing I
>> could think of off the top of my head was my previous one which is how I
>> became mor...@demon.co.uk. By the time I got home and installed
>> Turnpike I was already on line.
>
>Ahem! You were NEVER (officially) mor...@demon.co.uk. You might (if
>you had chosen the NODENAME morris4) have been anyt...@morris4.demon.co.uk.
>
>main was lucky to get through.
>
>Or was that just a typo?
>
Dr John Stockton
news:demon.ip.support.turnpike, Julian Barker
<Jul...@rodent.demon.co.uk> wrote at Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:23:37 :-
>
>Her later message puts blame on Turnpike, in which case, she should be
>posting to the Turnpike Newsgroup and not blaming Demon.
>
Much of the blame lies with Windows, for having text input/display
controls which give no indication that there might be more text than is
actually visible.
Borland, in TurboVision which is used to write the BP7 IDE, have thought
about this; when text in a line control cannot all be seen, there is a
coloured marker (#16/#17) in the last (or first) visible position.
Turnpike could alleviate the matter by displaying, beside "horizontal
lists", the number of entries.
Also, in the "Newsgroups" control (TP4: File Configure Newsgroups) there
could be an "Allows Binary/attachment" checkbox, default clear.
Attempted posting of anything TP recognises as a binary or attachment
would produce a firmly-worded box with Yes / No=default options.
It is claimed that TP is a safe Mail/News system; for that to be a safe
claim (whoever makes it), the system needs to be consistently safe.
Nannying should be the default option.