Recommendations for Alternative Email Provider / Hosting

[richard news]

Right, with the mess that Demon seem to be in now and the lack of
clarity/communication about things it looks like my 20+ years with them
are up.

So, first stage is to get everything away from my demon emails and
splitting my broadband / domain/email services - therefore I'm looking
to do the following:

1. Set up a new domain for myself
2. Host around 10 email@domain accounts
3. Not bothered about webspace.
4. Ability to access emails via web
5. Ideally UK / human support

So has anyone got any recommendations for an email provider? I'm
currently looking at:

Gradwell
1&1
1-2-3 reg
Fasthosts

[Tony]

I've chosen to use different companies for domain registration and email
hosting - in my case, 123-reg for the domain and Fastmail for email
hosting - so that one company going under doesn't take both services down.

Fastmail charge per account, so if you mean 10 accounts for 10 different
people logging in separately, then it may not be for you. Probably fails
on your item 5, too (support via ticketing system, Australian company,
US servers). For unlimited aliases per account with good folder routing
abilities, though, it's great.

--
Tony

[Malcolm Loades]

In message <mgtgkv$i4k$1...@dont-email.me>, richard news
<richard...@grange.demon.co.uk> writes

>
>1. Set up a new domain for myself
>2. Host around 10 email@domain accounts
>3. Not bothered about webspace.
>4. Ability to access emails via web
>5. Ideally UK / human support
>
>So has anyone got any recommendations for an email provider? I'm
>currently looking at:
>

Tsohost

£14.99 per year for what you want.

Superb UK based support via 0800 number. Very, very responsive. If you
call you may well get Adam or one of the other founders of the company.
I'd forgotten where to look for my affiliate link so have just called
support - answered within a minute and whole call lasted about 2
minutes!

If you don't want the web space for hosting why not use it as off-site
backup storage space.

I've been within them for quite a few years now and am 100% satisfied.

If you would like to visit them I'd appreciate it if you could use my
affiliate link http://my.tsohost.com/aff.php?aff=712

Malcolm

[John Hall]

In message <mgtgkv$i4k$1...@dont-email.me>, richard news
<richard...@grange.demon.co.uk> writes

I have my domain jhall.co.uk hosted by Gradwell. It comes with a small
amount of webspace, though I don't really use that. I also use their
mail forwarding. Currently I forward *@jhall.co.uk to
*@jhall.demon.co.uk (though that may soon cease), and in parallel I also
forward to the account that I've set up with gmail; from there I can
download it by POP3. It works surprisingly well, though the gmail side
might be a bit fiddly if you want as many as 10 or so email addresses.
And gmail would probably fail to meet your point 5.
--
I'm not paid to implement the recognition of irony.
(Taken, with the author's permission, from a LiveJournal post)

[Martin Brown]

On 18/04/2015 13:50, Tony wrote:
> On 18/04/2015 12:55, richard news wrote:
>> Right, with the mess that Demon seem to be in now and the lack of
>> clarity/communication about things it looks like my 20+ years with them
>> are up.
>>
>> So, first stage is to get everything away from my demon emails and
>> splitting my broadband / domain/email services - therefore I'm looking
>> to do the following:
>>
>> 1. Set up a new domain for myself
>> 2. Host around 10 email@domain accounts
>> 3. Not bothered about webspace.
>> 4. Ability to access emails via web
>> 5. Ideally UK / human support
>>
>> So has anyone got any recommendations for an email provider? I'm
>> currently looking at:
>>
>> Gradwell
>> 1&1
>> 1-2-3 reg
>> Fasthosts
>
> I've chosen to use different companies for domain registration and email
> hosting - in my case, 123-reg for the domain and Fastmail for email
> hosting - so that one company going under doesn't take both services down.

Although I probably wouldn't be too worried about 123-reg vanishing
myself they are one of the cheapest registrars for domain names at £7
for two years .org.uk or .co.uk. ISTR their cheapest toy web hosting
package is £2 pcm and email only for half that 10MB email size limit.

Secure mail transfer is extra I forget how much but ~£20 /year extra.

>
> Fastmail charge per account, so if you mean 10 accounts for 10 different
> people logging in separately, then it may not be for you. Probably fails
> on your item 5, too (support via ticketing system, Australian company,
> US servers). For unlimited aliases per account with good folder routing
> abilities, though, it's great.

How much per POP/IMAP seat? We may as well price up the various main
alternatives here so that everyone can see them with prices. Does it
offer secure content transport as standard or as a chargable extra.

These days I am not sure there are many humans left working in UK
customer support you frequently have to fight a layer of daleks on the
phone support hell line. TBH I prefer web chat for this now since then I
have an accurate transcript of what was promised and by when. YMMV

Regards,
Martin Brown
>

[Tony]

On 19/04/2015 08:42, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 18/04/2015 13:50, Tony wrote:

>> Fastmail charge per account, so if you mean 10 accounts for 10 different
>> people logging in separately, then it may not be for you. Probably fails
>> on your item 5, too (support via ticketing system, Australian company,
>> US servers). For unlimited aliases per account with good folder routing
>> abilities, though, it's great.
>
> How much per POP/IMAP seat? We may as well price up the various main
> alternatives here so that everyone can see them with prices. Does it
> offer secure content transport as standard or as a chargable extra.

A family package (1 or more accounts that one person can administer) is
USD20 per account per year for 1GB storage, USD40 per account per year
for 15GB, both plus USD5 per year for the family package capability.
Details at <https://www.fastmail.com/signup/family.html>. Secure
transport is mandatory and included. So far, a satisfied customer.

--
Tony

[David Rance]

On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 08:42:48 Martin Brown wrote:

>Although I probably wouldn't be too worried about 123-reg vanishing
>myself they are one of the cheapest registrars for domain names at £7
>for two years .org.uk or .co.uk.

That excludes VAT, of course. £6.98 + VAT = £8.38 for two years per
.org.uk or .co.uk

However that is the price to aim for as many other ISPs offer at the
same price. And it's not an introductory offer, that's the regular
price.

123-reg is most efficient, everything being done automatically. I
registered a domain with them last week (to replace my Demon address)
and I was using it within minutes of registration.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

[richard news]

On 18/04/2015 20:04, John Hall wrote:
> In message <mgtgkv$i4k$1...@dont-email.me>, richard news
> <richard...@grange.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>

> I have my domain jhall.co.uk hosted by Gradwell. It comes with a small
> amount of webspace, though I don't really use that. I also use their
> mail forwarding. Currently I forward *@jhall.co.uk to
> *@jhall.demon.co.uk (though that may soon cease), and in parallel I also
> forward to the account that I've set up with gmail; from there I can
> download it by POP3. It works surprisingly well, though the gmail side
> might be a bit fiddly if you want as many as 10 or so email addresses.
> And gmail would probably fail to meet your point 5.

Have gone with Gradwell in the end - new domain £30 for 10yrs
registration. Thunderbird configured to pick up the new domain mailboxes
and a lovely Sunday spent trying to update emails on various sites with
only a few problems (eBay I'm looking at you!!!).

I'll watch it for the next month as the demon emails dry up then it'll
be time to look for a new ISP. Sad really.

[John Hall]

In message <mh0rdo$ncn$1...@dont-email.me>, richard news

<richard...@grange.demon.co.uk> writes
>On 18/04/2015 20:04, John Hall wrote:
>> In message <mgtgkv$i4k$1...@dont-email.me>, richard news
>> <richard...@grange.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>
>>
>> I have my domain jhall.co.uk hosted by Gradwell. It comes with a small
>> amount of webspace, though I don't really use that. I also use their
>> mail forwarding. Currently I forward *@jhall.co.uk to
>> *@jhall.demon.co.uk (though that may soon cease), and in parallel I also
>> forward to the account that I've set up with gmail; from there I can
>> download it by POP3. It works surprisingly well, though the gmail side
>> might be a bit fiddly if you want as many as 10 or so email addresses.
>> And gmail would probably fail to meet your point 5.
>
>
>Have gone with Gradwell in the end - new domain £30 for 10yrs
>registration.

That's very good. Mine comes up for renewal every two years, IIRC, and I
pay about that amount each time.

>Thunderbird configured to pick up the new domain mailboxes and a lovely
>Sunday spent trying to update emails on various sites with only a few
>problems (eBay I'm looking at you!!!).
>
>I'll watch it for the next month as the demon emails dry up then it'll
>be time to look for a new ISP. Sad really.
>

Indeed.

[John McCabe]

I started to migrate from Demon a while back and bought mccabe.org.uk from 123-reg.

The domain is hosted by a phenomenally cheap US hosting company called GlobeDomain; I pay $18 or so a year for 600MB space and 6GB/month. However it's not suitable for email for various reasons, one of which is that its cheapness means all sorts of spammers cause it's SMTP relay to get blocked regularly and, also, if you're using IMAP the storage of your mail eats into the hosting space.

For email (other than the legacy Demon stuff which I'll just drop soon) I currently use 1&1; they have a 5 mailbox setup that I'm paying £1.79 a month and allows each mailbox to store 2GB of stuff. I've copied all of my mail since about15-20 years ago on to there and used up nearly 1/4 of that, so...

Have you taken a look at Zoho mail at all?

I'm currently looking around to find a decent, reliable service for an organisation I'm involved with and found them. They sound 'interesting' and it's free for 10 mailboxes I think. Also, as it's mainly aimed at business, you would hope they monitor outgoing stuff for spam and do regular spam list checks to make sure they're removed quickly. However I haven't tried it yet!

John

[Richard Stearn]

richard news wrote:
> Right, with the mess that Demon seem to be in now and the lack of

<munchies>
> Fasthosts
>

Question for those who have email with the likes of 123-reg, ...

Do they suffer from the issues that intY have managed to create.
e.g.
1) munging everything to "administrator" or similar.
2) loosing recipients when there is more than one in the envelope
(may be a consquence of 1)

Just need a mail spool like wot Demon used to have.

[lordgnome]

Now signed up with Naims - a very smooth change over. Very pleased. I
note that my old web pages are still up (sort of), as a few of the links
no longer work. Wondering if it is worth the bother of contacting
namesco to blow the rest of it away. Little point in keeping it anyway,
since there are organisations that give you acres of space absolutely free.

Les.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[val...@gmail.com]

Question (from a very, very *not* technical, long-standing Demon internet customer).

I've been a Home demon internet user since 1993. In 2000, my adult daughter built a tiny website for a project I had done for my elderly Dad. i was never able to update it <blush>. At the end of March, I hired somebody to buy a new domain name for me and set up hosting (whatever that is, and please don't tell me) for the website. She took the website content and updated it too (phew). More importantly, she up a "301 redirect" on the Demon FTP server to the new website before 31 March. To my delight, this redirect worked fine for the first half of April, i.e., once the NamesCo thing happened (whatever that was).

It went all wrong on April 16, but when I complained to NamesCo Customer Services, they fixed it. Somehow. It is still working today (1 May).

NamesCo Customer Support told me over the phone on both 15 and 16 April that just having a redirect from oldhostname.dcu to newhostname.co.uk would be free and permanent. i asked for (and was promised) confirmation in writing. Nothing came.

So, over the past week, I have had a long and tortured written dialogue with NamesCo Customer Support, trying to extract confirmation of what I had been promised. i am not getting anywhere.

NamesCo is trying to persuade me that (as of today) I should pay full whack for one of their Hosting products, for the privilege of having this 301 redirect (they are not posting my updated web content).

Question : is this reasonable?

If not, what arguments can I use to persuade them? What do you feel would be a reasonable cost for having a redirect?

Many thanks for your thoughts,
e-Granny

PS Very interestingly: as of yesterday, NamesCo is also now claiming that Demon/Vodafone STILL control my oldhostname.dcu email accounts (which have heretofore been 'free' SDU). i had also been trying to get (free) forwarding of ro...@oldhostname.dcu, jul...@oldhostname.dcu and (catchall) ad...@oldhostname.dcu to their newhostname equivalents. I'm not getting anywhere with that either and NamesCo is trying to persuade me to make Demon do that for me. Any intelligible advice very welcome.

[val...@gmail.com]

Oops. Typo. NamesCo is not HOSTING my newdomainname.co.uk web content (not 'posting'). Sorry.

[Martin Brown]

On 01/05/2015 09:07, val...@gmail.com wrote:
> Question (from a very, very *not* technical, long-standing Demon internet customer).
>

> It went all wrong on April 16, but when I complained to NamesCo Customer Services, they fixed it. Somehow. It is still working today (1 May).

That was D-day. It would probably have fixed itself overnight anyway.
(although the mirrored content might have predated your changes)

>
> NamesCo Customer Support told me over the phone on both 15 and 16 April that just having a redirect from oldhostname.dcu
> to newhostname.co.uk would be free and permanent. i asked for (and was promised) confirmation in writing. Nothing came.

For rather transient values of permanent.
Vodaphone FAQ says max two years before they junk *.dcu entirely.

>
> So, over the past week, I have had a long and tortured written dialogue with NamesCo Customer Support,
> trying to extract confirmation of what I had been promised. i am not
getting anywhere.

No surprise there. I doubt if it is even within their gift since
Vodaphone owns the demon.co.uk domain and all its subdomains.

>
> NamesCo is trying to persuade me that (as of today) I should pay full whack for one of their Hosting products,
> for the privilege of having this 301 redirect (they are not posting
my updated web content).
>
> Question : is this reasonable?

No. But you can't blame them for trying.

>
> If not, what arguments can I use to persuade them? What do you feel would be a reasonable cost for having a redirect?
>
> Many thanks for your thoughts,
> e-Granny
>
> PS Very interestingly: as of yesterday, NamesCo is also now claiming that Demon/Vodafone STILL control my oldhostname.dcu email accounts
> (which have heretofore been 'free' SDU). i had also been trying to
get (free) forwarding of ro...@oldhostname.dcu, jul...@oldhostname.dcu
> and (catchall) ad...@oldhostname.dcu to their newhostname
equivalents. I'm not getting anywhere with that either and NamesCo is
> trying to persuade me to make Demon do that for me. Any intelligible
advice very welcome.

My understanding is that the cack handed way that Vodafone have gone
about this means that Namesco are piggy-in-the-middle and cannot do
administration of domain records that they do not directly control. It
is only Vodafone who can alter the subdomain record details for .dcu.

I think basically you need to do it the old fashioned way and send out
an email telling people about your brand new email address using BCC.

All good things come to an end and Demon's demise has been particularly
ignominious for what was once a great and innovative internet pioneer :(

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Simon Turner]

On Friday, in article
<bad30636-b9d3-4bbe...@googlegroups.com>
val...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> NamesCo Customer Support told me over the phone on both 15 and 16
> April that just having a redirect from oldhostname.dcu to
> newhostname.co.uk would be free and permanent. i asked for (and was
> promised) confirmation in writing. Nothing came.

I have found that the support people at Namesco are not necessarily in
full possession of the facts (this seems especially true of those
providing telephone support).

> So, over the past week, I have had a long and tortured written
> dialogue with NamesCo Customer Support, trying to extract confirmation
> of what I had been promised. i am not getting anywhere.

It's fun, isn't it? They don't read what you have written, then --
after waiting a couple of days -- respond with something vague and
unclear, which doesn't address any of the points or questions in your
previous missive, and mark the enquiry closed.

I trust you have filled in their feedback form asking you what you
thought of their support? (Not that I expect it to make any difference,
but you never know.)

> NamesCo is trying to persuade me that (as of today) I should pay full
> whack for one of their Hosting products, for the privilege of having
> this 301 redirect (they are not posting my updated web content).
>
> Question : is this reasonable?

Not really, but in my opinion the unreasonableness here lies with Demon
rather than Namesco: in order to provide the redirect, Namesco would
have to have the files for your site (even if it's just a single
.htaccess file containing the redirect rule) on their servers,
maintaining the link between your site's URL (www.hostname.dcu) and
those files, in perpetuity -- while receiving no money from you for
providing this service. Why should they? They aren't your ISP, and
have no customer relationship with you; they don't owe you anything.
Demon/Vodafone most certainly do (and have betrayed you along with the
rest of us), but not Namesco.

It would be very interesting to know whether Demon/Vodafone paid Namesco
anything to take over all the web hosting, or whether Namesco expected
it to be self-financing by dint of most of their inherited Demon
customers paying them for hosting. I suspect the latter; I wonder how
it's working out for them?

> If not, what arguments can I use to persuade them? What do you feel
> would be a reasonable cost for having a redirect?

A couple of quid a year would seem reasonable (maybe up to a tenner a
year), but of course their internal systems can probably only cope with
people using one of their standard offerings.

> PS Very interestingly: as of yesterday, NamesCo is also now claiming
> that Demon/Vodafone STILL control my oldhostname.dcu email accounts
> (which have heretofore been 'free' SDU). i had also been trying to get
> (free) forwarding of ro...@oldhostname.dcu, jul...@oldhostname.dcu and
> (catchall) ad...@oldhostname.dcu to their newhostname equivalents. I'm
> not getting anywhere with that either and NamesCo is trying to
> persuade me to make Demon do that for me. Any intelligible advice very
> welcome.

Sadly, Namesco really don't seem to have a clue about how this whole
migration thing is supposed to work in the case of Demon customers who
don't have their own (external to Demon) domain. They make all sorts of
claims about e-mail being "ported" to them etc., but AFAICS ("as far as
I can see") none of those claims has any basis in reality.

It isn't reasonable to expect companies to provide services -- even ones
as simple as mail forwarding and web site redirection -- without paying
them something. And it seems clear that neither Demon/Vodafone nor
Namesco are prepared to do this.

Therefore, I regretfully suspect that the only way to achieve what you
want is to continue to pay Demon to "host" your oldhostname.dcu domain
and its associated e-mail, then use webmail to set up forwarding (as
Andy Frith explained); and, on top of that, to pay Namesco to host your
web site, even if it only consists of a single .htaccess file.

Whether Demon will let you pay for continued access to your e-mail I
don't know; it's not clear to me is whether Demon still provide the
"dial loyalty" account, or whether they now consider that all customers
who had access-less accounts (i.e. ones that didn't provide Internet
connectivity) are now Someone Else's Problem. In which case, how are
people supposed to continue getting their mail?

(I've asked Demon whether there is a cheaper option than TAM dialup to
retain access to your e-mail, and they mentioned Dial Loyalty and
faithfully promised to find out and let me know, but they have failed to
get back to me. Quelle surprise.)

(The best bit is that, when asked what the Standard Dial Up account
provided, their reply was "access to e-mail only". I asked several
times whether the dialup element still existed, but they just trotted
out the same answer. They were unable to explain what the difference
was between TAM Standard Dial Up and less-than-half-price Dial Loyalty.)

--
Simon Turner DoD #0461
si...@twoplaces.co.uk
Trust me -- I know what I'm doing! -- Sledge Hammer

[John Hall]

In message <20150505.10...@twoplaces.co.uk>, Simon Turner
<si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writes

>It would be very interesting to know whether Demon/Vodafone paid
>Namesco anything to take over all the web hosting, or whether Namesco
>expected it to be self-financing by dint of most of their inherited
>Demon customers paying them for hosting. I suspect the latter; I
>wonder how it's working out for them?

Not very well, I suspect. Demon/Vodafone won't have told them - even if
they realised, which I doubt - that few non-business customers
previously getting a tiny amount of webspace for free from Demon, that
they hadn't even specifically requested, would be willing to pay for it,
even with the amount of space being increased and the functionality
improved. Most people who were serious about having a web presence would
have long ago made other arrangements.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Extracting two important points:

In message <20150505.10...@twoplaces.co.uk>, Simon Turner

<si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writes:
[]

>Sadly, Namesco really don't seem to have a clue about how this whole
>migration thing is supposed to work in the case of Demon customers who
>don't have their own (external to Demon) domain. They make all sorts of

1. Indeed. That's a Very Important Point (how email to addresses _ending
in_ [regardless of what comes before] ".demon.co.uk" can ever be
independent of what whoever owns that domain does).

>claims about e-mail being "ported" to them etc., but AFAICS ("as far as
>I can see") none of those claims has any basis in reality.

[Always ask for the name of the person you are talking to. Even better -
though still ask for the name - record the call. (If you have any
concern, say at the beginning of your call that the call may be recorded
- though AFAIK there is no obligation to do so. IANAL, however.)]
[]

>Whether Demon will let you pay for continued access to your e-mail I
>don't know; it's not clear to me is whether Demon still provide the
>"dial loyalty" account, or whether they now consider that all customers
>who had access-less accounts (i.e. ones that didn't provide Internet
>connectivity) are now Someone Else's Problem. In which case, how are
>people supposed to continue getting their mail?

(Exactly! Point 1. above.)
[]

>(The best bit is that, when asked what the Standard Dial Up account
>provided, their reply was "access to e-mail only". I asked several
>times whether the dialup element still existed, but they just trotted
>out the same answer. They were unable to explain what the difference
>was between TAM Standard Dial Up and less-than-half-price Dial Loyalty.)
>

2. And there seems to be no-one left there who even knows about the
TAMmers whose TAM was halved well before the Dial Loyalty product was
invented.

(AIUI, _they_ think the difference is that TAMmers in theory still have
the option of dial-up connectivity, whereas DLers _only_ have email,
having to get their connectivity from someone else.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Tolerating intolerance is not a virtue." - Barry Shein

[Simon Turner]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 15:12:55 +0100, in article
<mhqot6$77b$1...@speranza.aioe.org> inv...@invalid.invalid

"Richard Stearn" wrote:

> Question for those who have email with the likes of 123-reg, ...
>
> Do they suffer from the issues that intY have managed to create.
> e.g.

Short answers, from my experience of some of them (see below for more
detail):

> 1) munging everything to "administrator" or similar.

Mostly, yes.

> 2) loosing recipients when there is more than one in the envelope
> (may be a consquence of 1)

For catch-all recipients: almost always, yes. 8-(


More detail: my experiences are with a hosting account with 123-reg
(which provides both mailboxes and mail forwarding rules), and mail
forwarding accounts with NetNames, Gradwell, Namesco and 1&1.

Note that 123-reg behaves differently depending on whether the mail goes
to a mailbox or gets forwarded (you only get the useful extra header
fields if it goes to a mailbox); it's possible the others do too, in
which case my mail forwarding experiences may not represent their mail
hosting products.

Note further that Demon/intY are the only people I've come across with a
mechanism to allow multiple recipient addresses for non-catch-all
mailboxes; the others have one address per mailbox or forwarding rule,
plus a catch-all.

123-reg:

1) Yes: the apparent recipient for catch-all mail is modified to the
mailbox name, so the latest (top-most) "Received:" field contains
"for <catchall-address>" rather than "for original-recipient"
(inconsistent usage of angle brackets faithfully represented).
However, they add an "Envelope-to:" field containing all the
original recipient addresses for the message -- but only if the
message goes to one of their mailboxes. If it's forwarded to an
external address, that field isn't present.

2) Yes: if the message is sent to more than one catch-all recipient,
only one copy enters the catch-all mailbox or gets forwarded. If
recipients have their own mailboxes or forwarding rules, each one of
those gets a copy.

Sample header fields for a single catch-all mailbox recipient:

Delivered-To: <catchall@domain>
Received: from mail12.atlas.pipex.net ([10.15.14.75])
by imap-16.mailcore.me (Dovecot) with LMTP id wBMbAujGSVUFEAAA4bejhQ
for <catchall@domain>; Wed, 06 May 2015 08:48:27 +0100
Envelope-to: foo@domain
Delivery-date: Wed, 06 May 2015 08:48:26 +0100
Received: from xxxx ([xx.xx.xx.xx])
by mail12.atlas.pipex.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71)
(envelope-from <sender@sender-domain>)
id 1Ypu4A-0001Ry-Rp
for foo@domain; Wed, 06 May 2015 08:48:26 +0100
From: Sender <sender@sender-domain>
To: foo@domain

For two catch-all mailbox recipients [foo, bar] and one specific
mailbox [test] (all messages have an identical header; note how
being delivered to multiple mailboxes inhibits the "Delivered-To:"
field):

Received: from mail4.atlas.pipex.net ([10.15.14.67])
by imap-16.mailcore.me (Dovecot) with LMTP id K17cNCjGSVW/JAAA4bejhQ
; Wed, 06 May 2015 08:43:39 +0100
Envelope-to: foo@domain,
bar@domain,
test@domain
Delivery-date: Wed, 06 May 2015 08:43:39 +0100
Received: from xxxx ([xx.xx.xx.xx])
by mail4.atlas.pipex.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71)
(envelope-from <sender@sender-domain>)
id 1YptzX-0003iz-7C; Wed, 06 May 2015 08:43:39 +0100
From: Sender <sender@sender-domain>
To: test@domain, foo@domain, bar@domain

Forwarded messages are handled similarly, except (a) they don't get
the "Delivered-To:", "Envelope-to:" or "Delivery-date:" fields at
all, and (b) if the message is forwarded to more than one address at
the same domain, only a single copy is sent to that domain (with
multiple recipients):

Received: from mailex.mailcore.me ([94.136.40.146]) by zzzz
with ESMTP id AAnnnnnn; Tue, 05 May 2015 13:24:20 +0100 (BST)
Received: from xxxx ([xx.xx.xx.xx])
by smtp05.mailcore.me with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1)
(envelope-from <sender@sender-domain>)
id 1YpbtZ-0005ld-Dw; Tue, 05 May 2015 13:24:17 +0100
From: Sender <sender@sender-domain>
To: fwd@domain, foo@domain, bar@domain


For the mail forwarding accounts (NetNames, Gradwell, Namesco and 1&1),
Gradwell are the only people who do it properly:

1) No and yes: the forwarding servers don't write "Received:" fields
once the forwarding have been applied, so *they* don't mung
anything, but of course the servers receiving the forwarded messages
will see the forwarded-to addresses and may put them into
"Received:" fields of their own (which looks like munging once the
dust has settled).

2) All expect Gradwell discard additional recipients for the catch-all
rule; they just keep the first one that matched the rule, and that's
the address that goes into the X-* header field (below). Gradwell
do it properly, with a separate copy of the message for each
catch-all recipient, each with its own "X-Envelope-To:" header
field.

NetNames, Gradwell and Namesco all provide a header field in the
forwarded message telling you who the original recipient was
("X-Originally-To:", "X-Envelope-To:", "X-Original-To:"
respectively).

1&1, like 123-reg, make no such attempt: if you can't work out the
recipient from the standard headers ("To:", "Cc:", "Received:" etc.)
or the post-forwarding recipient address, you have no way to find
out.

It may be worth noting that the NetNames, Gradwell and Namesco
forwarding accounts are all "legacy" ones that may be running on
different physical platforms from their current offerings, and may
therefore not represent the behaviour you would get from a new account.

(Gradwell are moving all their customers to their "cloud" platform, and
have warned that some services will change, so I'll probably find out
soon whether they are still as clueful as they used to be. And NetNames
are moving customers to their new Speednames.uk service, which I
pessimistically suspect will not be as good as the old one was.)

[John Hall]

In message <20150506.08...@twoplaces.co.uk>, Simon Turner
<si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writes

>Gradwell are moving all their customers to their "cloud" platform, and
>have warned that some services will change, so I'll probably find out
>soon whether they are still as clueful as they used to be.

I also use Gradwell's mail forwarding, so I too am concerned about this.
There's a list - hopefully complete - of all the upcoming changes in
their services here:

https://www.gradwell.com/platform-changes/

The only change that I could find regarding email forwarding was this:

"You can no longer perform suffix matching for email forwarding rules."

I checked here to see what Gradwell mean by "suffix matching", and
AFAICT it won't affect me:

https://support.gradwell.com/entries/23155603-Using-mail-forwarding-rules

[Simon Turner]

On Wednesday, in article
<S1$PFsBiJeSVFw+o@jhall_nospamxx.demon.co.uk>

john_...@jhall.co.uk "John Hall" wrote:

> In message <20150506.08...@twoplaces.co.uk>, Simon Turner
> <si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writes
> >Gradwell are moving all their customers to their "cloud" platform, and
> >have warned that some services will change, so I'll probably find out
> >soon whether they are still as clueful as they used to be.
>
> I also use Gradwell's mail forwarding, so I too am concerned about this.
> There's a list - hopefully complete - of all the upcoming changes in
> their services here:
>
> https://www.gradwell.com/platform-changes/
>
> The only change that I could find regarding email forwarding was this:
>
> "You can no longer perform suffix matching for email forwarding rules."

There are others that affect the level of service, though:

* Greylisting (which was hitherto provided as part of the basic
account, configurable on an address-by-address basis), which is now
described thus:

Take our additional mailfiltering service, built on the Spam
Experts platform to ensure your incoming mail is safe and secure.

which makes it sound as though you have to pay extra for their
anti-spam service in order to retain greylisting (and I wonder how
configurable it will be)

* Loss of Mail Collection service (which I don't use, but had always
thought was a useful idea)

* Loss of MX Relay service

and of course

* Loss of Usenet accounts (again, I didn't use this, but I mourn its
disappearance)

As to whether the new platform will have the same exemplary handling of
forwarded mail as the current one, all bets are off. I really, really
hope it does; but I have a nasty feeling that it will degrade to a
similar level of poor functionality to that provided by others (only one
copy to the catch-all regardless of number of recipients, no extra
header field telling you the recipient address etc.)

[Richard Stearn]

Simon Turner wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 15:12:55 +0100, in article
> <mhqot6$77b$1...@speranza.aioe.org> inv...@invalid.invalid
> "Richard Stearn" wrote:
>
>> Question for those who have email with the likes of 123-reg, ...
>>
>> Do they suffer from the issues that intY have managed to create.
>> e.g.
>
> Short answers, from my experience of some of them (see below for more
> detail):

Simon

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such a detailed manner.

I will continue the search. I vaguely recall coming across a small
registrar/email/web hosting company a couple of years ago who understood
the difference between a mail spool and mail box. If I find them
again I will post the name here.

Regards
Richard

[Roy Brown]

In message <S1$PFsBiJeSVFw+o@jhall_nospamxx.demon.co.uk>, John Hall
<john_...@jhall.co.uk> writing at 10:44:02 in his/her local time
opines:-

>In message <20150506.08...@twoplaces.co.uk>, Simon Turner
><si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writes
>>Gradwell are moving all their customers to their "cloud" platform, and
>>have warned that some services will change, so I'll probably find out
>>soon whether they are still as clueful as they used to be.
>
>I also use Gradwell's mail forwarding, so I too am concerned about
>this. There's a list - hopefully complete - of all the upcoming changes
>in their services here:
>
>https://www.gradwell.com/platform-changes/
>
>The only change that I could find regarding email forwarding was this:
>
>"You can no longer perform suffix matching for email forwarding rules."
>
>I checked here to see what Gradwell mean by "suffix matching", and
>AFAICT it won't affect me:
>
>https://support.gradwell.com/entries/23155603-Using-mail-forwarding-rules
>

I also use Gradwell, for relaying outgoing email, and found the 'cloud'
announcement as clear as mud insofar as it might affect me doing that
:-(

But it was a general heads-up, and they promised in the email to contact
me again with information more specific to the services they provide to
me, so I am waiting for that.


--
Roy Brown 'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be
Kelmscott Ltd useful, or believe to be beautiful' William Morris

[Roy Brown]

In message <20150505.10...@twoplaces.co.uk>, Simon Turner

<si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writing at 11:39:14 in his/her local time
opines:-

>Whether Demon will let you pay for continued access to your e-mail I
>don't know; it's not clear to me is whether Demon still provide the
>"dial loyalty" account, or whether they now consider that all customers
>who had access-less accounts (i.e. ones that didn't provide Internet
>connectivity) are now Someone Else's Problem. In which case, how are
>people supposed to continue getting their mail?

I have (or had) a Dial Loyalty account with Vodaphone/Demon, so that I
could continue to use my Demon email address.

I used to bung Vodaphone Ł5.10 every 2nd of the month on a DD to cover
this, and the last payment was on 2nd April.

On the 21st of April, Namesco emailed me, at a non-Demon email account I
have, that:=
===================================================
We would like to inform you that it has not been possible to process an
automated renewal payment for services on your account.
....
We have listed the relevant services below. Please be advised that the
authorising banks provide the reasons given. Monthly renewal of intY
Dial Email for xxxxxxxx.demon.co.uk (TAX COUNTRY UNVERIFIED)
.....
We will attempt to take payment again within the next 7 days. If our
attempts are successful, you will be sent a receipt via email. If the
outstanding balance is not received by this time, your service will be
suspended and may be deleted.

===================================================

which was pretty incomprehensible to me, as nothing was due yet, and
what on earth was that bank message?

But using other details in the email, I went into my Control Panel with
them, and set up the payment authorisation on the 26th April, and they
took Ł5.10 on 28th April under the Namesco name, and I still have my
Dial Loyalty working.

The headers (mildly munged) of my most recent email look pretty much
like they have always done since intY got involved, and the Namesco name
is nowhere to be seen:-

Received: from mail.demon.co.uk by xxxxthus.demon.co.uk with POP3
id <15173."xx...@xxxxxxxx.demon.co.uk"@mail.demon.co.uk>
for <"xx...@xxxxxxxx.demon.co.uk"@mail.demon.co.uk>;
Thu, 7 May 2015 14:50:05 +0100
Received: from smtp.demon.co.uk (192.168.70.10) by HVUT01.thus.corp
(192.168.70.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 7
May
2015 14:47:26 +0100
Received: from mdfmta012.tbr.inty.net (unknown [91.221.168.53]) by
mdfmta012.tbr.inty.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50858C006F for
<xx...@XXXXXXXX.DEMON.CO.UK>; Thu, 7 May 2015 14:48:00 +0100 (BST)

But it does look like Namesco are taking on D/L customers, and ensuring
their 'Demon' email continues to flow, for the standard D/L charge.

Roy

[Martin Brown]

On 07/05/2015 15:31, Roy Brown wrote:
> In message <20150505.10...@twoplaces.co.uk>, Simon Turner
> <si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writing at 11:39:14 in his/her local time
> opines:-
>
>> Whether Demon will let you pay for continued access to your e-mail I
>> don't know; it's not clear to me is whether Demon still provide the
>> "dial loyalty" account, or whether they now consider that all customers
>> who had access-less accounts (i.e. ones that didn't provide Internet
>> connectivity) are now Someone Else's Problem. In which case, how are
>> people supposed to continue getting their mail?
>
> I have (or had) a Dial Loyalty account with Vodaphone/Demon, so that I
> could continue to use my Demon email address.
>

> I used to bung Vodaphone £5.10 every 2nd of the month on a DD to cover

> this, and the last payment was on 2nd April.
>
> On the 21st of April, Namesco emailed me, at a non-Demon email account I
> have, that:=
> ===================================================
> We would like to inform you that it has not been possible to process an
> automated renewal payment for services on your account.

I think you should ask Namesco to clarify *exactly* what it is that you
are paying them for and then make sure that Demon are not also charging
you simultaneously for the same "service".

> ....
> We have listed the relevant services below. Please be advised that the
> authorising banks provide the reasons given. Monthly renewal of intY
> Dial Email for xxxxxxxx.demon.co.uk (TAX COUNTRY UNVERIFIED)
> .....
> We will attempt to take payment again within the next 7 days. If our
> attempts are successful, you will be sent a receipt via email. If the
> outstanding balance is not received by this time, your service will be
> suspended and may be deleted.
>
> ===================================================
>
> which was pretty incomprehensible to me, as nothing was due yet, and
> what on earth was that bank message?

Unless you want the legacy "25MB" web pages it seems that the emails are
still through Demon and are not migrated. If you want the webpages to
continue then the Namesco hosting is better than Demons ever was
although you might be better off paying the same amount and getting a
lot more by upgrading to their presently 20% off basic offering.

> But using other details in the email, I went into my Control Panel with
> them, and set up the payment authorisation on the 26th April, and they

> took £5.10 on 28th April under the Namesco name, and I still have my
> Dial Loyalty working.

I suspect Dial Loyalty will continue to work provided you keep on paying
Demon for it. Inty might be in the path but Namesco are only doing web
hosting at the moment and have admitted as much.

The FAQ says that TTL on Demon subdomains is less than two years.

>
> The headers (mildly munged) of my most recent email look pretty much
> like they have always done since intY got involved, and the Namesco name
> is nowhere to be seen:-
>
> Received: from mail.demon.co.uk by xxxxthus.demon.co.uk with POP3
> id <15173."xx...@xxxxxxxx.demon.co.uk"@mail.demon.co.uk>
> for <"xx...@xxxxxxxx.demon.co.uk"@mail.demon.co.uk>;
> Thu, 7 May 2015 14:50:05 +0100
> Received: from smtp.demon.co.uk (192.168.70.10) by HVUT01.thus.corp
> (192.168.70.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 7
> May
> 2015 14:47:26 +0100
> Received: from mdfmta012.tbr.inty.net (unknown [91.221.168.53]) by
> mdfmta012.tbr.inty.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50858C006F for
> <xx...@XXXXXXXX.DEMON.CO.UK>; Thu, 7 May 2015 14:48:00 +0100 (BST)
>
> But it does look like Namesco are taking on D/L customers, and ensuring
> their 'Demon' email continues to flow, for the standard D/L charge.
>
> Roy

Time will tell. I suspect you may be paying twice. The whole Demon
"migration" thing has been a complete fiasco from start to finish. The
main effect has been to convince me that when my annual contract is up
it is time to abandon Demon to the eternal pit of hell fire.

I shall also make sure none of my clients use Vodafone if I can help it.

This may well become a superb text book case study in how *NOT* to
launch a new broadband service in the already crowded UK market.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Andy]

In message <migf91$1ci$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote
[]

>Time will tell. I suspect you may be paying twice. The whole Demon
>"migration" thing has been a complete fiasco from start to finish. The
>main effect has been to convince me that when my annual contract is up
>it is time to abandon Demon to the eternal pit of hell fire.
>

I'm not planning to wait that long....
--
Andy Taylor [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society].
Visit <URL:http://www.austrianphilately.com>

[Simon Turner]

On Thursday, in article <Z$kj1Tq7c3SVFwP7@x.x>
Roy_now_fre...@acanthus.demon.co.uk "Roy Brown"
wrote:

> In message <20150505.10...@twoplaces.co.uk>, Simon Turner
> <si...@twoplaces.co.uk> writing at 11:39:14 in his/her local time
> opines:-
>
> >Whether Demon will let you pay for continued access to your e-mail I
> >don't know; it's not clear to me is whether Demon still provide the
> >"dial loyalty" account, or whether they now consider that all customers
> >who had access-less accounts (i.e. ones that didn't provide Internet
> >connectivity) are now Someone Else's Problem. In which case, how are
> >people supposed to continue getting their mail?
>
> I have (or had) a Dial Loyalty account with Vodaphone/Demon, so that I
> could continue to use my Demon email address.
>
> I used to bung Vodaphone Ł5.10 every 2nd of the month on a DD to cover
> this, and the last payment was on 2nd April.
>
> On the 21st of April, Namesco emailed me, at a non-Demon email account I
> have, that:=
> ===================================================
> We would like to inform you that it has not been possible to process an
> automated renewal payment for services on your account.
> ....
> We have listed the relevant services below. Please be advised that the
> authorising banks provide the reasons given. Monthly renewal of intY
> Dial Email for xxxxxxxx.demon.co.uk (TAX COUNTRY UNVERIFIED)

That's an intresting product name: "intY Dial Email". Sounds like a
renaming of Dial Loyalty, but one that's now administered (apparently)
by Namesco rather than Demon/Vodafone. But still using the
Demon-flavoured intY mail service, and with the DNS (presumably) still
provided by Demon's servers.

Is the xxxxxxxx above the name .dcu hostname mentioned in your e-mail
address? If so, the (Demon-hosted) DNS records look just the same as
those for a dialup customer, complete with static IP address.

I'm starting to wonder if the "around two more years" -- which only
appears in Demon's FAQ for those being migrated -- is not, as we've been
thinking, the time when Demon will scrap *.demon.co.uk, but the point at
which they will remove these "legacy, provided to former customers as a
goodwill gesture" DNS records from their servers and reclaim the IP
addresses. If so, it's *possible* that non-migrated Demon broadband
customers will continue to have the use of their hostname.dcu addresses
indefinitely...

> But it does look like Namesco are taking on D/L customers, and ensuring
> their 'Demon' email continues to flow, for the standard D/L charge.

It does indeed look that way. I imagine this is what Namesco *think*
(possibly erroneously) is also supposed to be happening to dialup
customers.

Oh what a tangled web they have woven.

[Roy Brown]

In message <migf91$1ci$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Martin Brown

<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> writing at 20:43:31 in his/her local
time opines:-

>On 07/05/2015 15:31, Roy Brown wrote:
>> I have (or had) a Dial Loyalty account with Vodaphone/Demon, so that I
>> could continue to use my Demon email address.
>>

>> I used to bung Vodaphone Ł5.10 every 2nd of the month on a DD to cover

>> this, and the last payment was on 2nd April.
>>
>> On the 21st of April, Namesco emailed me, at a non-Demon email account I
>> have, that:=
>> ===================================================
>> We would like to inform you that it has not been possible to process an
>> automated renewal payment for services on your account.
>
>I think you should ask Namesco to clarify *exactly* what it is that you
>are paying them for and then make sure that Demon are not also charging
>you simultaneously for the same "service".

Thank you for your justified concern. But I can confirm that Vodaphone
are no longer debiting me for Dial Loyalty.

>Unless you want the legacy "25MB" web pages it seems that the emails
>are still through Demon and are not migrated. If you want the webpages
>to continue then the Namesco hosting is better than Demons ever was
>although you might be better off paying the same amount and getting a
>lot more by upgrading to their presently 20% off basic offering.

No web pages with Demon - pure DL so I can keep the above email address.

>> But using other details in the email, I went into my Control Panel with
>> them, and set up the payment authorisation on the 26th April, and they

>> took Ł5.10 on 28th April under the Namesco name, and I still have my

>> Dial Loyalty working.

>I suspect Dial Loyalty will continue to work provided you keep on
>paying Demon for it. Inty might be in the path but Namesco are only
>doing web hosting at the moment and have admitted as much.

Well, they and only they are taking the DL fee. As long as I am paying
only once for the service, and I am getting it, I don't care who it is I
pay, or who provides it.

Ever since the dear dead days when Demon earned and deserved our
respect, it's been alphabet soup as to who owns who and who does what,
and I decline to try to keep up with it :-(

>The FAQ says that TTL on Demon subdomains is less than two years.

OK, come 2017, I'll start worrying :-)

>> But it does look like Namesco are taking on D/L customers, and ensuring
>> their 'Demon' email continues to flow, for the standard D/L charge.
>>
>> Roy
>
>Time will tell. I suspect you may be paying twice.

Nope.

> The whole Demon "migration" thing has been a complete fiasco from
>start to finish. The main effect has been to convince me that when my
>annual contract is up it is time to abandon Demon to the eternal pit of
>hell fire.
>
>I shall also make sure none of my clients use Vodafone if I can help it.
>
>This may well become a superb text book case study in how *NOT* to
>launch a new broadband service in the already crowded UK market.

Yep.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <j3dQhRdY...@news.posting>, Malcolm Loades

<dev...@loades.eu> writes:
>In message <mgtgkv$i4k$1...@dont-email.me>, richard news
><richard...@grange.demon.co.uk> writes
>>

>>1. Set up a new domain for myself
>>2. Host around 10 email@domain accounts
>>3. Not bothered about webspace.
>>4. Ability to access emails via web
>>5. Ideally UK / human support
>>
>>So has anyone got any recommendations for an email provider? I'm
>>currently looking at:
>>

>Tsohost
>
>£14.99 per year for what you want.
>
>Superb UK based support via 0800 number. Very, very responsive. If
>you call you may well get Adam or one of the other founders of the
>company. I'd forgotten where to look for my affiliate link so have just
>called support - answered within a minute and whole call lasted about 2
>minutes!

Now an 01 number (01628 200 161), though that didn't bother me,
especially as it was answered (after I'd gone through a couple of menu
choices) within a minute or two.

However. It was answered by a lady who I felt I was not on the same
wavelength with - to the extent that I didn't even bother asking some of
the questions I'd written down in advance. It's not that she was Asian:
I currently work with a couple of Indian engineers at work, and have no
difficulty with them. The experience _probably_ has made me choose not
to go with them: not so much that I can't probably get my questions
answered eventually, more that I don't relish the prospect of such
communication difficulties in the future, when I need some technical
help.
>
>If you don't want the web space for hosting why not use it as off-site
>backup storage space.

Or for temporary sharing, without inflicting the likes of Picasa,
dropbox etc. on anyone I want to share something with.
>
>I've been within them for quite a few years now and am 100% satisfied.

I am giving them a second chance, as emails - as opposed to a 'phone
call - about a year ago were answered (by "Bobby") most competently, and
on a Sunday evening, which I thought beyond the call of duty for someone
who isn't even a customer.
>
>If you would like to visit them I'd appreciate it if you could use my
>affiliate link http://my.tsohost.com/aff.php?aff=712

(I tried - it seemed to reroute to a URL that didn't have your 712 in
it.)
>
>Malcolm

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"If god doesn't like the way I live, Let him tell me, not you." - unknown

[Chris S]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 01:19:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <j3dQhRdY...@news.posting>, Malcolm Loades
><dev...@loades.eu> writes:

>>I've been within them for quite a few years now and am 100% satisfied.
>
>I am giving them a second chance, as emails - as opposed to a 'phone
>call - about a year ago were answered (by "Bobby") most competently, and
>on a Sunday evening, which I thought beyond the call of duty for someone
>who isn't even a customer.

Well, I've been a Tsohost web/email/multiple domain hosting customer
since early 2014 and ASAFIR never had the need or desire to phone
them. All business has been carried out by email (and/or web based
support ticket system) with absolutely no cause for any complaint. I
had left a couple of domains with Gradwell until they pulled a similar
trick to Vodafone late last year so all domains now hosted by Tsohost.

I don't on principle do 'referrals' because others may have different
requirements of a service provider to mine but other than that have no
hesitation in recommending Tsohost.

The same goes for my 'connectivity provider Zen who I moved to from
Demon late 2015.

Chris S

Demon Customer 1993 - 2015; now with Zen for connectivity and Tsohost
for web/email hosting (last Gradwell hosted domains to be migrated to
Tsohost by end October).

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <aq7k8c9prn2f2h7b2...@4ax.com>, Chris S

<myr9g...@snkmail.com> writes:
>On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 01:19:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
><G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <j3dQhRdY...@news.posting>, Malcolm Loades
>><dev...@loades.eu> writes:
>
>>>I've been within them for quite a few years now and am 100% satisfied.
>>
>>I am giving them a second chance, as emails - as opposed to a 'phone
>>call - about a year ago were answered (by "Bobby") most competently, and
>>on a Sunday evening, which I thought beyond the call of duty for someone
>>who isn't even a customer.

I 'phoned them again today, and got another (I think) not native
speaker, but my experience was a little better (possibly because my
expectations were a little lower; I now have no expectation of getting
through to one of the founders, as Malcolm suggested might be possible
in April 2015). When I got home, I found another email had been
answered, again quite competently, by "Yavor Draganov".

>
>Well, I've been a Tsohost web/email/multiple domain hosting customer
>since early 2014 and ASAFIR never had the need or desire to phone
>them. All business has been carried out by email (and/or web based
>support ticket system) with absolutely no cause for any complaint. I

The do online chat too ('phones 7-midnight, chat 9-8, tickets/email 24h
of course). Assuming it works reasonably well, I might go for the chat
route if/when I sign up, as you can usually get a transcript.

>had left a couple of domains with Gradwell until they pulled a similar
>trick to Vodafone late last year so all domains now hosted by Tsohost.

Thanks: that's definitely worth knowing.

>
>I don't on principle do 'referrals' because others may have different
>requirements of a service provider to mine but other than that have no
>hesitation in recommending Tsohost.

Thanks for the repeated endorsement. They do look promising. (7.12/yr
for registration, 14.99/yr for hosting/email/etc., not sure if these
include VAT. Price not the only determinant [service/competence much
more important], but those look good anyway.)

>
>The same goes for my 'connectivity provider Zen who I moved to from
>Demon late 2015.

I'm _reasonably_ happy with PlusNet.

>
>Chris S
>
>Demon Customer 1993 - 2015; now with Zen for connectivity and Tsohost
>for web/email hosting (last Gradwell hosted domains to be migrated to
>Tsohost by end October).

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you're playing a killer monster, be very quiet. -
Anthony Hopkins, RT 2016/10/22-28

[Malcolm Loades]

The link is fine, it goes to the tsohost home page but it does know it
came from me :-)

When I first joined tsohost all hosting was done with Control Panel, now
there is a cloud hosting option as well. The choice of which to use is
yours. I've one domain on cloud hosting and several on Control Panel.
Compared with cloud hosting Control Panel offers far more, especially
with regard to e-mail handling and filtering.

Malcolm

[John Hall]

In message <MFXDzKUr...@soft255.demon.co.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver
(John)" <G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> writes

>In message <aq7k8c9prn2f2h7b2...@4ax.com>, Chris S
><myr9g...@snkmail.com> writes:
>>On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 01:19:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>><G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <j3dQhRdY...@news.posting>, Malcolm Loades
>>><dev...@loades.eu> writes:
>>
>>>>I've been within them for quite a few years now and am 100% satisfied.
>>>
>>>I am giving them a second chance, as emails - as opposed to a 'phone
>>>call - about a year ago were answered (by "Bobby") most competently, and
>>>on a Sunday evening, which I thought beyond the call of duty for someone
>>>who isn't even a customer.
>
>I 'phoned them again today, and got another (I think) not native
>speaker, but my experience was a little better (possibly because my
>expectations were a little lower; I now have no expectation of getting
>through to one of the founders, as Malcolm suggested might be possible
>in April 2015). When I got home, I found another email had been
>answered, again quite competently, by "Yavor Draganov".

<snip>

A lot can happen to an ISP in almost two years. If they've been
successful, then the outfit is likely to have grown a lot bigger. That
can mean that they've had to hire a lot of new people, most of whom
won't be as technically knowledgeable as the old hands. Even worse, they
might have been taken over by a larger rival. Of course we all know of
one ISP to whom that's happened not just once but repeatedly.
--
John Hall
"One can certainly imagine the myriad of uses
for a hand-held iguana maker"
Hobbes (the tiger, not the philosopher!)

[John McCabe]

On Friday, 27 January 2017 00:39:57 UTC, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> Thanks for the repeated endorsement. They do look promising. (7.12/yr
> for registration, 14.99/yr for hosting/email/etc., not sure if these
> include VAT. Price not the only determinant [service/competence much
> more important], but those look good anyway.)

Do you have a direct link to that £14.99/yr offer? When I go to tsohost I keep finding myself at a £9.99/mth one.

FWIW - I use Vidahost for web hosting of the organisation I mentioned in a post earlier in this thread. Vidahost and Tsohost are sister companies under the umbrella of Paragon Internet Group. Overall I've been pleased with Vidahost; they were helpful before I signed up with them (well, most organisations are!) but also afterwards and I've found them generally pretty responsive. However I don't use them for email.

I mentioned Zoho Mail at that time too. I hadn't used Zoho then, but I've set the organisation's email up there now and it seems to work fine (well, as long as you've got your SPF and DKIM records set up properly). They've got a "group" facility that you can use to distribute emails to multiple recipients, e.g. make the group zzz@<yourdomain> then sending an email to zzz@<yourdomain> will forward it to all the group members. When you add members they get an email to ask them to confirm they want to receive mail. I've found that facility useful, but not hugely reliable, which I suspect is related to the fact that the internet is becoming quite a hostile place for less intelligent mailing lists, especially some of the major organisations like Google, Yahoo and (especially) Hotmail and BTInternet who seem to have an 'interesting' view on what is spam.

Anyway - Zoho's free option allows 25 mailboxes and you can add aliases, although I don't know if there's a limit.

My personal email is still hosted by 1&1, but I can't really see what I'm getting there for my £1.79 a month that Zoho wouldn't provide free of charge. Also 1&1 don't seem to be doing the 5 mailboxes offer I got when I started; it looks like you can have 1, at £1.19+VAT/mth or 20 at £2.49+VAT (or something like that).

Either way, I haven't had any trouble from 1&1 and they've been fairly responsive, but setting up my domain was a bit more difficult than I'd hope for, mainly because the DNS records are held elsewhere (the domain's registered with 123-reg, and hosted by Globedomain). I suspect that registering the domain with 1&1 and having email hosted there too would probably be much simpler.

Hope this is useful.
John

[Molly Mockford]

At 09:47:45 on Fri, 27 Jan 2017, Malcolm Loades <dev...@loades.net>
wrote in <ef0ja2...@mid.individual.net>:

>When I first joined tsohost all hosting was done with Control Panel,
>now there is a cloud hosting option as well. The choice of which to
>use is yours. I've one domain on cloud hosting and several on Control
>Panel. Compared with cloud hosting Control Panel offers far more,
>especially with regard to e-mail handling and filtering.

I'm only just getting to grips with TsoHost, but as I understand it the
cPanel hosting allows for catch-all e-mail by domain, whereas the Cloud
hosting doesn't. The fact that Gradwell's Cloud hosting doesn't allow
this either is why I am moving to TsoHost.
--
Molly Mockford
Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it. (Milton Diamond Ph.D.)
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

[Malcolm Loades]

On 27/01/2017 14:17, Molly Mockford wrote:
> At 09:47:45 on Fri, 27 Jan 2017, Malcolm Loades <dev...@loades.net>
> wrote in <ef0ja2...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> When I first joined tsohost all hosting was done with Control Panel,
>> now there is a cloud hosting option as well. The choice of which to
>> use is yours. I've one domain on cloud hosting and several on Control
>> Panel. Compared with cloud hosting Control Panel offers far more,
>> especially with regard to e-mail handling and filtering.
>
> I'm only just getting to grips with TsoHost, but as I understand it the
> cPanel hosting allows for catch-all e-mail by domain, whereas the Cloud
> hosting doesn't. The fact that Gradwell's Cloud hosting doesn't allow
> this either is why I am moving to TsoHost.
>

Ooops! A bit of bad form in that I inadvertently replied to Molly
directly rather than here. For the record here's what I wrote:

Catch all is possible with cloud hosting. Set forwarding for
*@domain.com to a specific mailbox and mail to addresses which don't
have a forwarding, rule or their own mailbox, goes there.

The real power of Control Panel comes with mail filtering rules which
don't exist in cloud hosting.

Malcolm

[Molly Mockford]

At 15:07:20 on Fri, 27 Jan 2017, Malcolm Loades <dev...@loades.net>
wrote in <ef1619...@mid.individual.net>:

*slaps head* Of course, it is the filtering that made my decision! But
it is true that Gradwell's Cloud hosting doesn't allow per-domain
catch-all; any undefined namepart, on any domain, all goes into *one*
mailbox on the account. No doubt fine for hobby sites all run by the
same person, but horrendous when one hosts sites for various
individuals, each of which is entitled to receive all of their own mail.

[Molly Mockford]

At 15:07:20 on Fri, 27 Jan 2017, Malcolm Loades <dev...@loades.net>
wrote in <ef1619...@mid.individual.net>:

>Ooops! A bit of bad form in that I inadvertently replied to Molly
>directly rather than here. For the record here's what I wrote:

Wondering why I hadn't seen that, I checked my spamtrap - and indeed it
was there, as the From address of your reply was the From address of my
posting, which is something that only ever happens in spam. I don't
know how you managed it inadvertently!

[Chris S]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 14:17:12 +0000, Molly Mockford
<nospam...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:

>At 09:47:45 on Fri, 27 Jan 2017, Malcolm Loades <dev...@loades.net>
>wrote in <ef0ja2...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>>When I first joined tsohost all hosting was done with Control Panel,
>>now there is a cloud hosting option as well. The choice of which to
>>use is yours. I've one domain on cloud hosting and several on Control
>>Panel. Compared with cloud hosting Control Panel offers far more,
>>especially with regard to e-mail handling and filtering.
>
>I'm only just getting to grips with TsoHost, but as I understand it the
>cPanel hosting allows for catch-all e-mail by domain, whereas the Cloud
>hosting doesn't. The fact that Gradwell's Cloud hosting doesn't allow
>this either is why I am moving to TsoHost.

It may well be that when you take every aspect into account, Tsohost
Cpanel may be a more 'powerful' option compared to Tsohost Cloud. I
plumped for cloud back in 2014 mainly for the 'unlimited' domains
option although every now and then I consider revisiting other Tsohost
hosting package options but never quite get around to it.

However, unless I am losing vast amounts of email without realizing
it, Cloud hosting _does_ allow catch-all email routing by domain, if I
understand correctly what you mean by that.

Under the Cloud Dashboard each domain has it's own tab section. It you
want to handle sub-domains differently to their parent, you can set
them up as separate domains.

Each domain then has its own email configuration 'sub-panels'. Taking
my own primary domain as an example I have a top rule set to route
*.domain to postmaster@domain. Underneath that is a mailbox 'rule'
someone@domain which collects mail for that address. Underneath that
is a forwarding rule someone.else@domain which routes mail to the
someone@domain mailbox. Last of all is a mailbox rule for
postmaster@domain. End result is all mail except that for someone@ and
someone.else@ ends up in the postmaster@ mailbox.

Other domains have their own set of similar rules. Note the catchall
mailbox doesn't have to be postmaster@; that's just a habit of mine
inherited from my Demon days!

The only thing you need to be careful of is setting up spam filters.
Although each of the above rules has its own 'spam filter' button,
they all display the same menu for that domain. A drop down field
within the menu allows for different filter rules for each routing and
mailbox rule. Although it is not a show stopper, if you chose to route
spam (based on the SpamAssassin threshold you have selected) to the
"Spam Box", that is an per domain IMAP mailbox. As I run all mail
through local filters anyway, I just configure the tag subject line
option instead so spam is just tagged rather then rerouted to the spam
box. However, I do check the IMAP Spam Box every now and then

There is one limitation, I believe just with the Cloud hosting option,
and that is outgoing mail is spam checked. I forget what the
SpamAssassin threshold is but it is not configurable. As far as I
recall, I have only once come across this limitation in practice when
forwarding a 'false positive' mail item.

Hope this helps.

Chris

[Malcolm Loades]

On 27/01/2017 16:39, Molly Mockford wrote:
> At 15:07:20 on Fri, 27 Jan 2017, Malcolm Loades <dev...@loades.net>
> wrote in <ef1619...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Ooops! A bit of bad form in that I inadvertently replied to Molly
>> directly rather than here. For the record here's what I wrote:
>
> Wondering why I hadn't seen that, I checked my spamtrap - and indeed it
> was there, as the From address of your reply was the From address of my
> posting, which is something that only ever happens in spam. I don't
> know how you managed it inadvertently!
>

Having used Turnpike from the day of it's birth until 6 months ago I'm
still trying to like and fully understand Thunderbird. I simply clicked
on Reply rather than Follow up, something I don't think I've done before
(not that I post to usenet much these days).

My guess is that it's something to do with an Add-on I have, Virtual
Identity. Virtual Identity does the one thing that TP never did and
which I wished for; when replying to an e-mail it sets the Sender and
Reply To addresses to be the same as the address to which the e-mail was
sent. A godsend when you have your own domain and give everyone a
one-off address eg amazon@, ebay@ etc. It works brilliantly in my mail
folders but you've shown that it doesn't work so well with news postings.

Malcolm

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <ef0ja2...@mid.individual.net>, Malcolm Loades

<dev...@loades.net> writes:
>On 26/01/2017 01:19, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> In message <j3dQhRdY...@news.posting>, Malcolm Loades
>> <dev...@loades.eu> writes:
>
>>> If you would like to visit them I'd appreciate it if you could use my
>>> affiliate link http://my.tsohost.com/aff.php?aff=712
>>
>> (I tried - it seemed to reroute to a URL that didn't have your 712 in
>> it.)
>
>The link is fine, it goes to the tsohost home page but it does know it
>came from me :-)

Well, I hope it did the trick if you get some sort of reward. I'm not
sure I did everything from that signin.

>
>When I first joined tsohost all hosting was done with Control Panel,
>now there is a cloud hosting option as well. The choice of which to
>use is yours. I've one domain on cloud hosting and several on Control
>Panel. Compared with cloud hosting Control Panel offers far more,
>especially with regard to e-mail handling and filtering.
>
>Malcolm
>
>

Ah. I understand I can switch back and forth between them at will. But
it's fairly academic - I'm only really using the domain for email, and
adding a website is only (a) because it seems daft not to, (b) to use as
an occasional dropbox/picasa/whatever site when I want to share things,
without sending people to a webpage covered in scripts and/or ad.s.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The early worm gets the bird.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <ZuY8$gBtFyiYFwLc@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>, John Hall
<john_...@jhall.co.uk> writes:
[]

>A lot can happen to an ISP in almost two years. If they've been
>successful, then the outfit is likely to have grown a lot bigger. That
>can mean that they've had to hire a lot of new people, most of whom
>won't be as technically knowledgeable as the old hands. Even worse,
>they might have been taken over by a larger rival. Of course we all
>know of one ISP to whom that's happened not just once but repeatedly.

Indeed )-:.

I've found most of the Tsohost folk I've had (email ["ticket"] and
"chat") dealings with so far, reasonably competent (apart from the one
who seemed unable to grasp what I "wanted" in the way of forwarding -
but then I don't think they offer that).

I'm a bit disconcerted by their names though:
Yavor Draganov
Krasen I.
Yoan Kolev
Vasil Yordanov
Radina
Kostatin Dobrev
Atanas Atanasov
Svetlana Antonova
Is a pattern emerging (-:? Though they all write excellent English!

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[Bob Evans]

In article <dWB3XHZ2...@soft255.demon.co.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver
(John)" <G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote

>I've found most of the Tsohost folk I've had (email ["ticket"] and
>"chat") dealings with so far, reasonably competent (apart from the one
>who seemed unable to grasp what I "wanted" in the way of forwarding -
>but then I don't think they offer that).
>
>I'm a bit disconcerted by their names though:
>Yavor Draganov
>Krasen I.
>Yoan Kolev
>Vasil Yordanov
>Radina
>Kostatin Dobrev
>Atanas Atanasov
>Svetlana Antonova
>Is a pattern emerging (-:? Though they all write excellent English!

Don't be disconcerted. As mentioned on their website, Tsohost opened a
support centre in Bulgaria some two or three years ago.

On the handful of occasions that I have needed to call on their support
- some by phone, others via email/control panel ticket - I have always
found that their responses to my questions to be very quick, extremely
polite and technically spot-on and with none of the comprehension
problems (for either side) that one sometimes encounters with far-away
call centres.

--
Bob Evans

[Chris S]

Well, Gilliver is of French origin so I suppose you will be returning
to France once we leave the EU.

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Gilliver

Regarding the team at Tsohost they appear they appear a pretty mixed
bunch to me. Note that the company was founded by a bloke called
Darren in July 2003 while studying for a degree in Physics with
Computer Science at Kings College, London.

https://www.tsohost.com/about/meet-the-team

As far as the company is concerned, here is their impressive timeline:

https://www.tsohost.com/about

Chris S

Born in London, English, UK Citizen, European (sadly soon will not be
able to write EU Citizen), Citizen of the World.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <qzgyTAD3...@cygnus.rejectifspam.lichtech.co.uk>, Bob

Evans <newsab...@deleteifspam.lichtech.co.uk> writes:
>In article <dWB3XHZ2...@soft255.demon.co.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver
>(John)" <G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>I've found most of the Tsohost folk I've had (email ["ticket"] and
>>"chat") dealings with so far, reasonably competent (apart from the one
>>who seemed unable to grasp what I "wanted" in the way of forwarding -
>>but then I don't think they offer that).
>>
>>I'm a bit disconcerted by their names though:
>>Yavor Draganov
>>Krasen I.
>>Yoan Kolev
>>Vasil Yordanov
>>Radina
>>Kostatin Dobrev
>>Atanas Atanasov
>>Svetlana Antonova
>>Is a pattern emerging (-:? Though they all write excellent English!
>
>Don't be disconcerted. As mentioned on their website, Tsohost opened a
>support centre in Bulgaria some two or three years ago.

Sorry, startled would perhaps have been a better word: I certainly
didn't mean it was any problem for me. I've found them mostly to be very
on the ball, and certainly polite.

>
>On the handful of occasions that I have needed to call on their support
>- some by phone, others via email/control panel ticket - I have always
>found that their responses to my questions to be very quick, extremely
>polite and technically spot-on and with none of the comprehension
>problems (for either side) that one sometimes encounters with far-away
>call centres.
>

Good. So far my experience looks the same.

(One minor funny: emails from me in reply to their replies in a ticket
sequence, seem [also?] to be bouncing back to me - anyone else
encountered this and know how to fix it? Not a problem really.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Humans landed on the moon before we put wheels on our luggage.