Stonehenge
Neil Tungate
Did anyone see the program on BBC2 tonight, about the construction of
Stonehenge. I'd love to see the mock-up they put together during the
experiment, but where is it?
--
Neil
Kid: "And what's in it for me?"
Master: "You get to live!"
leo
In article <31acbac...@news.demon.co.uk>
ne...@skipper.demon.co.uk "Neil Tungate" writes:
> Did anyone see the program on BBC2 tonight, about the construction of
> Stonehenge.
Yes
I'd love to see the mock-up they put together during the
> experiment, but where is it?
It wasn't a mockup, it was real slabs. I believe that it's not too far
from Stonehenge itself.
--
leo
Neal
} Did anyone see the program on BBC2 tonight, about the construction of
} Stonehenge. I'd love to see the mock-up they put together during the
} experiment, but where is it?
}
Don't bother..
the original was a piece of shite, if they really wanted to
catch the sun they should have built it out in space.
.... try hitching to Carnac / Loc Mari aquer (France) instead !
" the earth is flat, the sun a disc - track the sun with lines of
stones, day-by-day nearer... disapear - reappear....trap the disc
between the stones 2 X 2 with one on top.. but which way round?
It can't be caught.. the sun a god. worship the sun follow the moon.
Loc-mariaquer we'll be there soon... ;-)
HTH :)
--
neal
A strange being
Neil Tungate (ne...@skipper.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: I'd love to see the mock-up they put together during the
: experiment, but where is it?
It's behind the camel.
--
IceFiend on IRC -- ic...@icefiend.u-net.com
http://www.u-net.com/~icefiend/
Keith Matthews
> It wasn't a mockup, it was real slabs. I believe that it's not too far
> from Stonehenge itself.
It was a very interesting programme but I missed the start. Were they
*real* stones, or were they cast of concrete. If the latter, did they
transport them or cast them on site?
I thought that there was a theory that the stones had come from Wales.
Has this idea been discredited?
--
Keith A Matthews
Neil Tungate
Keith Matthews <k...@sandwell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>It was a very interesting programme but I missed the start. Were they
>*real* stones, or were they cast of concrete. If the latter, did they
>transport them or cast them on site?
They looked very well cast, and there was no sign of debris so they
were probably brought in from elsewhere.
>I thought that there was a theory that the stones had come from Wales.
>Has this idea been discredited?
The archeologist chappie reckoned they came from Avebury, about 20
miles up the road. There's a steep hill up onto Salisbury Plain
though, so they wouldn't have had an easy time getting them there.
I was told the Wales theory in history lessons at school. I'm
surprised that nobody thought of Avebury then, because all those
stones are just lying around there.
futility
ne...@skipper.demon.co.uk (Neil Tungate) wrote:
>Did anyone see the program on BBC2 tonight, about the construction of
>Stonehenge. I'd love to see the mock-up they put together during the
>experiment, but where is it?
Ah, that will be at DIYhenge.
Mike Fleming
In article <31ade023...@news.demon.co.uk>
futi...@evap.demon.co.uk "futility" writes:
What, the MFI Stonehenge?
___________
|___________|
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | Are you _sure_ it's not in the box?
--
Mike (DF) Fleming MAG #79794 DoD #4446 Greenpeace #567708F
JKLO #004 KotWP7 UKMC #9
Which of these well-meaning groups will look out for the homeless snail
And who is going to save the slug ere it reaches the end of its trail?
Keith Matthews
In article <833506...@tauzero.demon.co.uk>
Mi...@tauzero.demon.co.uk "Mike Fleming" writes:
> ___________
> |___________|
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | | Are you _sure_ it's not in the box?
You have to provide your own sky hook!
--
Keith A Matthews
Adam Lloyd
In article <833458...@lgab.demon.co.uk>,
leo <l...@lgab.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Did anyone see the program on BBC2 tonight, about the construction of
>> Stonehenge.
>
>Yes
Aye, 'twas very interesting.
[the mockup]
>It wasn't a mockup, it was real slabs. I believe that it's not too far
>from Stonehenge itself.
I thought they said they built it on a hillock nearby, or something along
those lines. Anyway, what we need to do now is build the pyramids that way.
Should take ten minutes or so.
Adam.
leo
In article <833481...@sandwell.demon.co.uk>
k...@sandwell.demon.co.uk "Keith Matthews" writes:
> It was a very interesting programme but I missed the start. Were they
> *real* stones, or were they cast of concrete. If the latter, did they
> transport them or cast them on site?
Look, they were large grey square things. They may have been pressed
elephants, concrete, or BNFL's new uranium disposal method. I neither know
nor care. However, since they were stated to be replicas of the largest
stone at Stonehenge I think it's fairly safe to assume that they were either
concrete or very heavy plasticine
> I thought that there was a theory that the stones had come from Wales.
> Has this idea been discredited?
Yes, because they would never have got over the Severn Bridge. The tollbooths
aren't wide enough.
--
leo
leo
In article <ADD4F579...@aj094.du.pipex.com>
ad...@park78.ftech.co.uk "Adam Lloyd" writes:
>
> Aye, 'twas very interesting.
>
> [the mockup]
> >It wasn't a mockup, it was real slabs. I believe that it's not too far
> >from Stonehenge itself.
>
> I thought they said they built it on a hillock nearby, or something along
> those lines.
Well ... a camera shot purportedly from the new site showed Stonehenge
in the middle distance. What worries me a little is why, if they could
build enormous great stone things like that, they didn't build rather
more useful things - castles, houses etc.
--
leo
David Hadley
ne...@skipper.demon.co.uk (Neil Tungate) wrote:
>>I thought that there was a theory that the stones had come from Wales.
>>Has this idea been discredited?
>
>The archeologist chappie reckoned they came from Avebury, about 20
>miles up the road. There's a steep hill up onto Salisbury Plain
>though, so they wouldn't have had an easy time getting them there.
>I was told the Wales theory in history lessons at school. I'm
>surprised that nobody thought of Avebury then, because all those
>stones are just lying around there.
Stonehenge was built over a period of about 400 years with 3 periods
of main building. The Welsh bluestones were used in the second period
of building (roughly 17thC B.C.). The stones they were basing the
programme on were used in the 3rd period of building and came from the
place 20 miles up the road.
--
David Hadley
David Stevenson
In article <833581...@lgab.demon.co.uk>, leo <l...@lgab.demon.co.uk>
writes
>In article <833481...@sandwell.demon.co.uk>
> k...@sandwell.demon.co.uk "Keith Matthews" writes:
>
>> It was a very interesting programme but I missed the start. Were they
>> *real* stones, or were they cast of concrete. If the latter, did they
>> transport them or cast them on site?
>
>Look, they were large grey square things.
These are now known as RC buttons on Turnpike. For those of you who
do not know this luverly bit of software, it was designed by an
interfering nanny, possibly called Richard Clayton. Every time you do
something this big grey thing appears saying "Are you sure?" or
something.
I want to post.
Do you want to post?
If so then press button marked "Yes".
Yes, I want to post.
I've pressed the button marked "Yes".
Are you sure you want to post?
If so then press button marked "Yes".
Yes, I'm sure that I want to post.
I've pressed the button marked "Yes".
Are you really sure you want to post?
If so then press button marked "Yes".
Yes, I'm really sure that I want to post.
I've pressed the button marked "Yes".
Are you .....
Eeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
The level of frustration that these big grey things engendered has
been reduced by someone on one of the support groups who calls the big
grey button the RC (Richard Clayton) button. Now it feels better!
Do you want to post?
Yes: hit RC!
Are you sure you want to post?
Yes: hit RC!
Are you really sure you want to post?
Yes: hit RC!
Are you .....
So that is what big grey things are called.
> They may have been pressed
>elephants, concrete, or BNFL's new uranium disposal method. I neither know
>nor care. However, since they were stated to be replicas of the largest
>stone at Stonehenge I think it's fairly safe to assume that they were either
>concrete or very heavy plasticine
>
>> I thought that there was a theory that the stones had come from Wales.
>> Has this idea been discredited?
>
>Yes, because they would never have got over the Severn Bridge. The tollbooths
>aren't wide enough.
No, you've got that wrong. The tollbooths are only for getting into
Wales. There aren't any for getting out. There's a whole story in that
somewhere if I could only thing of it. <snigger>
--
David Stevenson Bridge Cats Railways Logic /\_/\
Nothing ventured, nothing gained |@ @|
da...@blakjak.demon.co.uk Emails welcome =< + >=
Tel: 0151 677 7412 Phone before Fax please ^
Steven J Lilley
vivi...@shirecol.demon.co.uk "Vivianne" writes:
<sni>
> > I've pressed the button marked "Yes".
> > Are you sure you want to post?
>
> is crap and is giving me one last chance to change my mind.
Well, I'm glad you always choose to ignore it. ;>
--
Steven J Lilley
| |
_/\\_ __//\_
_/^\^\_ __/^\/\____
David Brown
> Anyway, what we need to do now is build the pyramids that way.
> Should take ten minutes or so.
NIMBY
--
David (t'Real one)
John Hall
In article <H09HL5BY...@shirecol.demon.co.uk>, Vivianne <vivianne@s
hirecol.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>I always feel that my computer has read what I want to post, decided it
>is crap and is giving me one last chance to change my mind.
I think my computer decided my postings of yesterday weren't good
enough. None of them seems to have appeared as yet :(
--
"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for
subtlety."
Isaac Asimov
Neil Tungate
Mike Fleming <Mi...@tauzero.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> ___________
> |___________|
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | | Are you _sure_ it's not in the box?
FOT5CDL
Neil (the original)
Save a local record shop - buy, buy, buy!
Vivianne
In article <$EmbVbCt...@blakjak.demon.co.uk>, David Stevenson
<da...@blakjak.demon.co.uk> writes
> Every time you do
>something this big grey thing appears saying "Are you sure?" or
>something.
>
> I want to post.
> Do you want to post?
> If so then press button marked "Yes".
> Yes, I want to post.
> Are you sure you want to post?
I always feel that my computer has read what I want to post, decided it
is crap and is giving me one last chance to change my mind.
>
--
Vivianne
(IRC nick: pvc/Deanna)
Alan Price
In article <833581...@lgab.demon.co.uk>
leo <l...@lgab.demon.co.uk> said:-
>In article <833481...@sandwell.demon.co.uk>
> k...@sandwell.demon.co.uk "Keith Matthews" writes:
>
>> I thought that there was a theory that the stones had come from Wales.
>> Has this idea been discredited?
>
>Yes, because they would never have got over the Severn Bridge. The tollbooths
>aren't wide enough.
>
There aren't any tollbooths on the side coming -out- of Wales. You have to
pay only to enter the Principality.
We found this out, serendipitously, whilst wending our way from Liverpool
to Winfrith Newburgh at Easter.
__
apr...@postern.demon.co.uk Alan Price
Vivianne
In article <833640...@midgley.demon.co.uk>, Steven J Lilley <s-
lil...@midgley.demon.co.uk> writes
>> I always feel that my computer has read what I want to post, decided it
>> is crap and is giving me one last chance to change my mind.
>
>
<sigh>
Love at first byte
David Stevenson
In article <d5ZI1QAx...@glost.demon.co.uk>, Pete Rodger
<Pe...@glost.demon.co.uk> writes
>>do not know this luverly bit of software, it was designed by an
>>interfering nanny, possibly called Richard Clayton.
>A slur IMHO, on a hard working and helpful gent.
>
>I guess you're defaming him cos you asked a damn fool question and got
>your just reward.
>(..but I could, of course, be wrong.- You could just be a prat...)
No, you could just be wrong.
--
Who's nicked my sig?
Hugh Thomson
In article <31ade023...@news.demon.co.uk>,
futi...@evap.demon.co.uk (futility) wrote:
>ne...@skipper.demon.co.uk (Neil Tungate) wrote:
>
>>Did anyone see the program on BBC2 tonight, about the construction of
>>Stonehenge. I'd love to see the mock-up they put together during the
>>experiment, but where is it?
>
> Ah, that will be at DIYhenge.
>
Concretehenge?
Keith Matthews
In article <833725...@mist.demon.co.uk>
io...@mist.demon.co.uk "Iolo Davidson" writes:
> There is, or was, a copy of Stonehenge built in concrete on the
> banks of the Columbia River.
There is another half-sized copy of Stonehenge at Athens Georgia USA in
a housing development. I believe that it featured in the "Spinal Tap"
spoof rock video.
--
Keith A Matthews
Paul McCombes
Adam Lloyd <ad...@park78.ftech.co.uk> writes
>David Brown <da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>NIMBY
>
>You what?
>
Never Irritate My Bloody Yak.
--
Paul
"The US Military had counted upon their adversaries' lack of GPS
guided missiles and poor access to mail-order shopping."
Pete Rodger
In article <$EmbVbCt...@blakjak.demon.co.uk>, David Stevenson
<da...@blakjak.demon.co.uk> writes
> These are now known as RC buttons on Turnpike. For those of you who
>do not know this luverly bit of software, it was designed by an
>interfering nanny, possibly called Richard Clayton.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A slur IMHO, on a hard working and helpful gent.
I guess you're defaming him cos you asked a damn fool question and got
your just reward.
(..but I could, of course, be wrong.- You could just be a prat...)
--
Pete
Adam Lloyd
In article <oLyJPQAr...@jhall.demon.co.uk>,
John Hall <jo...@jhall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I think my computer decided my postings of yesterday weren't good
>enough. None of them seems to have appeared as yet :(
That's not your computer... it's the Newsborg[tm].
Adam.
Adam Lloyd
In article <833664...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>,
David Brown <da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anyway, what we need to do now is build the pyramids that way.
>> Should take ten minutes or so.
>
>NIMBY
You what?
Adam.
David Brown
In article <ADD7A109...@an142.du.pipex.com>
ad...@park78.ftech.co.uk "Adam Lloyd" writes:
You're too young, Adam. It's past your bedtime
(Not In My Back Yard - or NIMBYs for short are those protesters who want
the necessary work done elsewhere. Example, the Newbury by-pass and Terminal
5 protestors)
Richard Robinson
In article <833725...@mist.demon.co.uk>,
Iolo Davidson <io...@mist.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <ADD6FFFE9...@thrl.demon.co.uk>
> hu...@thrl.demon.co.uk "Hugh Thomson" writes:
>
>> Concretehenge?
>
>There is, or was, a copy of Stonehenge built in concrete on the
>the Sam Hill is THAT?" fame) for his wife Marie (of "Marie of
>Rumania" fame).
>
>It isn't full size, but it is complete and undamaged, unlike the
>original.
Ah, but does it work ?
--
Richard Robinson, Leeds, UK ric...@beulah.demon.co.uk
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
Cris
leo <l...@lgab.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:BTW, if anyone is interested, I'm building a log cabin. It's fairly small,
:so I suppose you could say it's a cut-down version
...with arrow slits. When's the BarB?
Cris
John Hall
>
>There is, or was, a copy of Stonehenge built in concrete on the
>banks of the Columbia River. It was built by Sam Hill (of "What
>the Sam Hill is THAT?" fame) for his wife Marie (of "Marie of
>Rumania" fame).
Fame is fleeting. I've never heard of either of them.
--
"But I am a great eater of beef, and I believe
that does harm to my wit."
William Shakespeare, "Twelfth Night"
leo
> In article <ADD6FFFE9...@thrl.demon.co.uk>
> hu...@thrl.demon.co.uk "Hugh Thomson" writes:
>
> > Concretehenge?
>
> There is, or was, a copy of Stonehenge built in concrete on the
> banks of the Columbia River. It was built by Sam Hill (of "What
> the Sam Hill is THAT?" fame) for his wife Marie (of "Marie of
> Rumania" fame).
>
> It isn't full size, but it is complete and undamaged, unlike the
> original.
In that case it's not a copy, is it? Eh? Eh?
BTW, if anyone is interested, I'm building a log cabin. It's fairly small,
so I suppose you could say it's a cut-down version
--
leo
Adam Lloyd
In article <833748...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>,
David Brown <da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >NIMBY
>>
>> You what?
>
>You're too young, Adam.
Harrumph. I though you were quoting some complex Internet thing.
>It's past your bedtime
True. My ideal bedtime would be 10:00am. Or thereabouts.
>(Not In My Back Yard - or NIMBYs for short are those protesters who want
>the necessary work done elsewhere. Example, the Newbury by-pass and Terminal
>5 protestors)
I wasn't suggesting that the pyramids should be built in your back yard. I
was thinking more of on Salisbury Plain, or out near the Nile or something.
Honestly. I ask you.
Adam.
Paul McCombes
In article <833826...@mist.demon.co.uk>, Iolo Davidson
<io...@mist.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <tGhY8kAl...@jhall.demon.co.uk>
> jo...@jhall.demon.co.uk "John Hall" writes:
>
>> In article <833725...@mist.demon.co.uk>, Iolo Davidson
>> <io...@mist.demon.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >banks of the Columbia River. It was built by Sam Hill (of "What
>> >the Sam Hill is THAT?" fame) for his wife Marie (of "Marie of
>> >Rumania" fame).
>>
>
Any relationship to Joe Hill - there was a song at Woodstock about Joe
Hill.
>Maybe you had to be there.
>But Queen Marie of Rumania was imortalised in verse by Dorothy
>Parker. That doesn't wear off.
>
Pretty transient sort of immortality.
Who's Dorothy Parker then?
--
Paul
You might as well live.
Donald R. Oddy
In article <833748...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>
da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk "David Brown" writes:
>In article <ADD7A109...@an142.du.pipex.com>
> ad...@park78.ftech.co.uk "Adam Lloyd" writes:
>
>> In article <833664...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>,
>> David Brown <da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >NIMBY
>>
>> You what?
>
>You're too young, Adam. It's past your bedtime
>
>(Not In My Back Yard - or NIMBYs for short are those protesters who want
>the necessary work done elsewhere. Example, the Newbury by-pass and Terminal
>5 protestors)
The classic NIMBY was the Minister for the Envirionment a few years
ago who objected to a development in his own village of the same type
that he had approved elsewhere.
--
Donald
Terrance Richard Boyes
Richard Ashton (ric...@corixia.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> don...@grove.demon.co.uk "Donald R. Oddy" writes:
>
> } The classic NIMBY was the Minister for the Envirionment a few years
> } ago who objected to a development in his own village of the same type
> } that he had approved elsewhere.
>
> position has ever, or would ever, do such a thing.
You seem to be implying that the Minister who did such originally was a Tory,
I wonder why...
--
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1666 Team AMIGA
Men must find and feel and represent in all of their creative works Man
the Eternal, the creator. - Tagore
Steve Firth
In article <834062200s...@corixia.demon.co.uk>,
Richard Ashton <ric...@corixia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>We may assume, of course, that no Labour politician holding such a
>position has ever, or would ever, do such a thing.
We may assume so until you can come up with something more concrete than a
potentially defamatory statement. Besides which, even if it were true, are
you telling me that your preferred political party only has to be as good
as the worst example available?
Steve Firth
In article <833928...@grove.demon.co.uk>,
"Donald R. Oddy" <don...@grove.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The classic NIMBY was the Minister for the Envirionment a few years
>ago who objected to a development in his own village of the same type
>that he had approved elsewhere.
Nicholas "The Riddle of the Bones" Ridley, who literaly was a NIMBY since
the development would have been in his back yard. It was most amusing to
see him trying to justify his action on TV. Abuse of his ministerial power?
Perish the thought.
Richard Robinson
Paul McCombes
In article <9606062...@pierrot.demon.co.uk>, Terrance Richard Boyes
<t...@pierrot.demon.co.uk> writes
>Richard Ashton (ric...@corixia.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>> don...@grove.demon.co.uk "Donald R. Oddy" writes:
>>
>> } ago who objected to a development in his own village of the same type
>> } that he had approved elsewhere.
>>
>> position has ever, or would ever, do such a thing.
>
>I wonder why...
>
to Ridley Scott of Bladerunner fame, or his brother Tony, wot done Top
Gun).
Private Eye had a small verse in memorandum for him which went like
Farewell then
Nicholas
Ridley
Where will
you be buried
I wonder?
Not in My Backyard.
Jo Pender
>
>(Not In My Back Yard - or NIMBYs for short are those protesters who want
>the necessary work done elsewhere. Example, the Newbury by-pass and Terminal
>5 protestors)
just local people protesting that something unpleasant is going to
happen near to them. They are a group of commited individuals from all
walks of life and from all around the country, trying to stand up to
government and its insane and indecent policies.
Rant over with...I feel much better now.
--
Jo Pender
John Hall
In article <SlnekIA9CXuxEw9$@bottled.demon.co.uk>, Jo Pender
<Garg...@bottled.demon.co.uk> writes
But isn't it for the people who live in an area to say whether or not
they want a by-pass? What business is it of people from the other end of
the country?
Many projected by-passes may not be necessary or not be routed as
sensitively as they might be, but I don't believe all by-passes are
automatically wrong in principle. In some cases they have made the towns
that have been by-passed tolerable places in which to live again. You
may take the line that the solution to the problem would be to restrict
the use of private cars, of course, but I think it's fairly clear that
the electorate as a whole does not want this.
>
>Rant over with...I feel much better now.
Good :)
So do I, strangely enough.
Anyway, welcome to dl, Jo.
--
One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is
the belief that one's work is terribly important.
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
Alec Cawley
In article <SlnekIA9CXuxEw9$@bottled.demon.co.uk>, Jo Pender
<Garg...@bottled.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <833748...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>, David Brown
><da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>(Not In My Back Yard - or NIMBYs for short are those protesters who want
>>the necessary work done elsewhere. Example, the Newbury by-pass and Terminal
>>5 protestors)
>And how many by-pass protesters do you know? As it happens they are not
>just local people protesting that something unpleasant is going to
>happen near to them. They are a group of commited individuals from all
>walks of life and from all around the country, trying to stand up to
>government and its insane and indecent policies.
>
'Cos the majority of the local people want the bypass, and would rather
that these individuals were committed somewhere else.
Alec - within half a mile of the bypass
Donald R. Oddy
In article <834062200s...@corixia.demon.co.uk>
ric...@corixia.demon.co.uk "Richard Ashton" writes:
>In article <833928...@grove.demon.co.uk>
> don...@grove.demon.co.uk "Donald R. Oddy" writes:
>
>} The classic NIMBY was the Minister for the Envirionment a few years
>} ago who objected to a development in his own village of the same type
>} that he had approved elsewhere.
>
>We may assume, of course, that no Labour politician holding such a
>position has ever, or would ever, do such a thing.
*You* may make any assumption you like, I will await evidence.
--
Donald
David Stevenson
In article <9606062...@pierrot.demon.co.uk>, Terrance Richard Boyes
<t...@pierrot.demon.co.uk> writes
>Richard Ashton (ric...@corixia.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>> don...@grove.demon.co.uk "Donald R. Oddy" writes:
>>
>> } The classic NIMBY was the Minister for the Envirionment a few years
>> } ago who objected to a development in his own village of the same type
>> } that he had approved elsewhere.
>>
>> We may assume, of course, that no Labour politician holding such a
>> position has ever, or would ever, do such a thing.
>
>You seem to be implying that the Minister who did such originally was a Tory,
>I wonder why...
Nothing to do with the fact that owing to Labour incompetence we
cannot remember a time when the Tories were not in power, by any chance?
--
Who's taken it this time: give it back!
Donald McFarlane
>
> In article <833748...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>, David Brown
> <da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk> writes
> >
> >(Not In My Back Yard - or NIMBYs for short are those protesters who want
> >the necessary work done elsewhere. Example, the Newbury by-pass and Terminal
> >5 protestors)
> And how many by-pass protesters do you know? As it happens they are not
> just local people protesting that something unpleasant is going to
> happen near to them. They are a group of commited individuals from all
> walks of life and from all around the country, trying to stand up to
> government and its insane and indecent policies.
>
> Rant over with...I feel much better now.
Good god. We have a lunatic in demon.local! I shan't bother to rebut your
implications, however absurd they may seem. But please bear in mind that
a very large number of people in Newbury, in Winchester and around Gatwick
wanted the bypass, the M3, and another runway/terminal respectively.
Fortunately, the government is from time to time vaguely sane. Deciding to
press for the LHW option instead seems a little odd, however.
Personally, I was quite delighted by the M3 extension, both from practical
and environmental standpoints. The removal of the old bypass is a bonus
of far greater value than the loss of a remote farmer's field or two, upon
which few tramped or so much as knew about before the proposals.
Morning Hills is now, IMO, much nicer than in recent years.
--
home page: http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/sc3d/dsmcf/index.html
Vodafone GSM: +44-385-780073 (SMS welcome)
... I appreciate your not breathing while I smoke.
John McGinlay
In article <ant09065...@sc3d.demon.co.uk>
ds...@sc3d.demon.co.uk "Donald McFarlane"
demonstrates that usenet is the ultimate
in write-only media:
> Good god. We have a lunatic in demon.local!
You obviously haven't lurked long enough...
--
John McGinlay (who has lost count)
Pete Rodger
In article <834259...@grove.demon.co.uk>, "Donald R. Oddy"
<don...@grove.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <834062200s...@corixia.demon.co.uk>
> ric...@corixia.demon.co.uk "Richard Ashton" writes:
>
>>In article <833928...@grove.demon.co.uk>
>>
>>} The classic NIMBY was the Minister for the Envirionment a few years
>>} ago who objected to a development in his own village of the same type
>>} that he had approved elsewhere.
>>
>>We may assume, of course, that no Labour politician holding such a
>>position has ever, or would ever, do such a thing.
>
>
Schools for everyone but their own child - no?
--
Pete
Mike Fleming
In article <4jQPOAAA...@cawley.demon.co.uk>
al...@cawley.demon.co.uk "Alec Cawley" writes:
> In article <SlnekIA9CXuxEw9$@bottled.demon.co.uk>, Jo Pender
> <Garg...@bottled.demon.co.uk> writes
> >And how many by-pass protesters do you know? As it happens they are not
> >just local people protesting that something unpleasant is going to
> >happen near to them. They are a group of commited individuals from all
> >walks of life and from all around the country, trying to stand up to
> >government and its insane and indecent policies.
>
> 'Cos the majority of the local people want the bypass, and would rather
> that these individuals were committed somewhere else.
I thought that the protestors were complaining about the route
of the bypass, rather than opposing the bypass itself? The
reason being that the route goes through various SSSIs - which
makes it cheaper to buy up the land, of course...
--
Mike (DF) Fleming MAG #79794 DoD #4446 Greenpeace #567708F UKMC #9
Save the slug, save the slug, save the slug, save the slug
They're not cute and sexy, they're covered in slime
But so many species have run out of time
Tina J Perrett
In article <SlnekIA9CXuxEw9$@bottled.demon.co.uk>, Jo Pender
<Garg...@bottled.demon.co.uk> writes
>And how many by-pass protesters do you know? As it happens they are not
>just local people protesting that something unpleasant is going to
>happen near to them. They are a group of commited individuals from all
>walks of life and from all around the country, trying to stand up to
>government and its insane and indecent policies.
>
I don't usually nail my colours to the mast, but I feel I must agree
with Jo - even though I shall be called a nutter.......
We might as well save ourselves all the bother and just pour the
concrete all over the UK right now........because as sure as eggs are
eggs in another ten years they'll be a new Newbury bypass, because the
last one they built will be clogged up and sadly inadequate.
I'm sorry, but I *hate* trees that took hundreds of years to grow being
chopped down for something that will be outmoded in just a few years.
--
Tina J Perrett - There now follows an advert on behalf of Steven J Lilley:-
The lightest Cakes, Pastry, Puddings &c., are made using BORWICK's BAKING
POWDER. the Best and Purest in the World. Resolutely Refuse all Substitutes.
Donald McFarlane
In article <wg$FWHATc...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>, Tina J Perrett
<mailto:ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> We might as well save ourselves all the bother and just pour the
> concrete all over the UK right now........because as sure as eggs are
> eggs in another ten years they'll be a new Newbury bypass, because the
> last one they built will be clogged up and sadly inadequate.
You'll be surprised to hear I agree with you in a sense. It is of course
quite absurd that the planning process should be allowed to take as long as
it does to the extent that e.g. the M25 comes in a decade late and with
a number of lanes concomitant only with the traffic of the era for which it
had originally been planned. Clearly, such projects as this, the channel
tuunel rail link, etc., should be exempt from planning approval subject to
standing select committee approval (recall the MOD car park -- grounds
of national security and all that?) and should be planned with sufficiently
large verges and long bridge crossings that an increase of the lanes from
3+HS to 5 or 6 +HS depending on location could be achieved at a later date
without widening works or requirements to close anything other than the hard
shoulder. If lighting is anticipated, then provision should be made for this
initially, and the lighting design should allow for ready upgrade of head to
cover the widened carriageway. I also happen to believe that there is a lot
to be said for the practice of having a large (grassed) central reservation,
with the crash barriers removed from the side of the road to the middle of
that reservation. Either that or a second HS on the RHS of the overtaking
lane, but that's awfully expensive.
--
home page: http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/sc3d/dsmcf/index.html
Vodafone GSM: +44-385-780073 (SMS welcome)
... "We're all capable of mistakes, but I do not care to enlighten you
on the mistakes we may or may not have made." -- Vice President Dan Quayle
David Stevenson
Jo Pender <Garg...@bottled.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <833748...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>, David Brown
><da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>(Not In My Back Yard - or NIMBYs for short are those protesters who want
>>the necessary work done elsewhere. Example, the Newbury by-pass and Terminal
>>5 protestors)
>And how many by-pass protesters do you know? As it happens they are not
>just local people protesting that something unpleasant is going to
>happen near to them. They are a group of commited individuals from all
>walks of life and from all around the country, trying to stand up to
>government and its insane and indecent policies.
>
>Rant over with...I feel much better now.
Yes, they may be: but the impression we receive is that in some
(many?) but not all cases they also try to stand up to the government
when it makes sane and decent policies.
--
David Stevenson Bridge Cats Railways Logic /\_/\
Nothing ventured, nothing gained |@ @|
da...@blakjak.demon.co.uk Emails welcome =< o >=
Tel: 0151 677 7412 Phone before Fax please w
Terrance Richard Boyes
Donald McFarlane (ds...@sc3d.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> <mailto:ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > We might as well save ourselves all the bother and just pour the
> > concrete all over the UK right now........because as sure as eggs are
> > eggs in another ten years they'll be a new Newbury bypass, because the
> > last one they built will be clogged up and sadly inadequate.
>
> had originally been planned. Clearly, such projects as this, the channel
[snip]
> large verges and long bridge crossings that an increase of the lanes from
> 3+HS to 5 or 6 +HS depending on location could be achieved at a later date
And what do we do when 6 lanes isn't enough for the motorways, and how about
in town/city traffic.
Simply increasing the number of lanes is not a long term solution.
--
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1666 Team AMIGA
Unquestionably, there is progress. The average American now pays out
twice as much in taxes as he formerly got in wages.
- H. L. Mencken
John McGinlay
In article <834370...@mist.demon.co.uk>
io...@mist.demon.co.uk "TrollMaster Davidson"
writes:
> If you want trees, buy some ground and plant your own. Why
> should someone else undergo the expense for your benefit?
You remind me of Robert Heinlein. He got more and more right wing
with age, and kept regurgitating the same old themes as well.
--
John McGinlay (who nearly forgot how pointless it is to have a 'discussion'
with Iolo around)
John McGinlay
In article <chxG1AAs...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>
ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk "Tina J Perrett" writes:
> When planting trees you don't plant them for yourself, its not possible.
> I know I won't live long enough to see the trees I've planted in their
> full splendour, another generation will.
I admire your sentiments and motives.
There was a series of documentaries recently about the landscape
gardeners of the 18 and 19 centuries. What impressed the hell out of me
was the vision these people had, that they could plan an estate or
garden, and visualise what it might look like in 40-50 years time.
And also that they were willing to do it, knowing that they themselves
would never see the full glory. Not for them the 'quick fix, short term
gains' approach that is now the order of the day.
--
John McGinlay (bemoaning the lack of visionaries and altruists today)
Steve Firth
In article <wg$FWHATc...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>,
Tina J Perrett <ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm sorry, but I *hate* trees that took hundreds of years to grow being
>chopped down for something that will be outmoded in just a few years.
Did you know that there is a crisis in forestry at the moment because of
the success of the greens in getting people to recycle paper? It also now
looks to be more wasteful to recycle paper than to fell trees and make new.
There's noting wrong wrong with cutting down trees, provided you plant some
replacements. The same silly mistake was made in the New Forest where the
usual practise of clear-felling was abandoned. The change in strategy
caused the near extinction of the sparrowhawk and several species of
butterfly which need forest clearings in which to breed and find food.
Being eco-friendly is all very well, but there's a tendency to leap in and
hug trees without thinking of the consequences.
Donald McFarlane
In article <9606100...@pierrot.demon.co.uk>, Terrance Richard Boyes
<mailto:t...@pierrot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Donald McFarlane (ds...@sc3d.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> > <mailto:ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > We might as well save ourselves all the bother and just pour the
> > > concrete all over the UK right now........because as sure as eggs are
> > > eggs in another ten years they'll be a new Newbury bypass, because the
> > > last one they built will be clogged up and sadly inadequate.
> >
> > a number of lanes concomitant only with the traffic of the era for which it
> > had originally been planned. Clearly, such projects as this, the channel
>
> [snip]
>
> > large verges and long bridge crossings that an increase of the lanes from
> > 3+HS to 5 or 6 +HS depending on location could be achieved at a later date
>
> And what do we do when 6 lanes isn't enough for the motorways, and how about
> in town/city traffic.
>
> Simply increasing the number of lanes is not a long term solution.
No, but it's not a bad short term solution. btw, Bill, I'm back and I can
type coherently, even if I am pissed.
Long term, we create a better solution. Current solutions cannot hope to bear
in mind all future considerations but they should bear in mind the majority of
the foreseeen circumstances.
Regards,
Donald
--
home page: http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/sc3d/dsmcf/index.html
Vodafone GSM: +44-385-780073 (SMS welcome)
... I'm not dead; I'm metabolically challenged.
Alec Cawley
In article <834361...@tauzero.demon.co.uk>, Mike Fleming
<Mi...@tauzero.demon.co.uk> writes
>> <Garg...@bottled.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>> >just local people protesting that something unpleasant is going to
>> >happen near to them. They are a group of commited individuals from all
>> >walks of life and from all around the country, trying to stand up to
>> >government and its insane and indecent policies.
>>
>> that these individuals were committed somewhere else.
>
>I thought that the protestors were complaining about the route
>of the bypass, rather than opposing the bypass itself? The
>reason being that the route goes through various SSSIs - which
>makes it cheaper to buy up the land, of course...
>
Well - complaining about the fact that it bypasses the town and
therefore crosses farmland. The offical Friends of the Earth line is
that it could all be solved by a little reorganisation of the road as it
passes through town, which recieves a hollow laugh. It could be so done,
simply by cutting off all local access, which would make a nice through
route. Unfortunately the existing dual carrigeway is the *only* full
duplex crossing of the Kennet, which divides the town in two E-W. The
result would be to convert Newbury into two towns about 5 road mikes
apart.
Ths SSSIs have been carefully hunted out, and are mostly grazed not
destroyed. If you cross 9 miles of countryside, you've got to go over
something. Likewise, both sides have employed crack statisticians (in
the sens of the old joke about liars, bloody liars, and statisticians).
Give or take minor realignments, I can see no other route possible.
Twenty years ago, there could have been a much better route to the East
of Newbury. However, the Nimbys of that day got the existing road dual
carriagewayed instead, and the space between Newbury and Thatcham where
it could have run has now filled up with housing estates. Thus by
winning the fight 20 years ago, they have set up for greater damage
today.
I want the bypass because 1) I spend ten minutes per day each way
travelling that will not be necessary when the bypass exists [20 mins
per day, 6 days a week 'cos its true on Sat as well = 100 hours per year
of my one and only life wasted] and 2) my house is regularly shaken by
juggernauts travelling the (C class) road outside to avoid the jams; we
are on the diversion route used when the A34 single-carriageway
racetrack to the south of Newbury is jammed by a smash (not infrequent -
they have electronically changeable signs to mark the diversion). The
drivers are not stupid - show them a diversion once and they'll take it
for ever.
Not that I can talk - tha A34 runs about half a mile from my house and
three quarters from my work - but some of the lanes I uase to detour
round it are so small that the grass brushes both sides of my car in
summer.
Alec - guess which side I'm on
Terrance Richard Boyes
Donald McFarlane (ds...@sc3d.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
> Good god. We have a lunatic in demon.local! I shan't bother to rebut your
Shirley shome mishtake.
> Personally, I was quite delighted by the M3 extension, both from practical
> and environmental standpoints. The removal of the old bypass is a bonus
The only sane and practical way to deal with the transport problems is to
increase the amount and effectiveness of public transport, be it rail, bus
or other. These have been very badly hit especially in the last few years.
I noticed that recently there has been wide cross-party support to encourage
the use of pushbikes for short journeys. Now that is something sensible...
--
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1666 Team AMIGA
He is the MELBA-BEING... the ANGEL CAKE..
Tina J Perrett
In article <834370...@mist.demon.co.uk>, Iolo Davidson
<io...@mist.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>Council environmental officers often have to deal with people who
>*insist* that grand old trees are cut down, because they are
>shading said people's garden. Of course the same people will
>object strenuosly to the cutting down of a nice looking tree in
>the middle distance that is shading someone *elses* garden.
Yes I know, I was a tree warden for three years.
>
>If you want trees, buy some ground and plant your own. Why
>should someone else undergo the expense for your benefit?
Been there, seen it, done it. Usually on cold winter mornings, always as
a volunteer, planting trees for the council, highways, and other such
bodies. I've also planted trees in Norfolk on my own piece of land.
When planting trees you don't plant them for yourself, its not possible.
I know I won't live long enough to see the trees I've planted in their
full splendour, another generation will. This is because an oak tree
takes longer than a human lifetime to mature. It does however only take
a few minutes to cut down.
Tina J Perrett
In article <ADE245DF...@firthcom.demon.co.uk>, Steve Firth
<fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk> writes
>Did you know that there is a crisis in forestry at the moment because of
>the success of the greens in getting people to recycle paper?
Hopefully then it'll put an end to those depressing pine trees that seem
only to grow in rows and provide tax breaks for Tory ministers and the
like. Trees that in my opinion *deserve* to die! :)
(Silly move that Tina, you know tongue in cheek comments on dl are
always doomed to failure).
>
>There's noting wrong wrong with cutting down trees, provided you plant some
>replacements.
I agree in principle. Although they don't just become mature overnight.
> The same silly mistake was made in the New Forest where the
>usual practise of clear-felling was abandoned. The change in strategy
>caused the near extinction of the sparrowhawk and several species of
>butterfly which need forest clearings in which to breed and find food.
I agree. Proper forest management is very important, without it the
trees get sick and spindly, (in addition to the wildlife problems you
mention).
>
>Being eco-friendly is all very well, but there's a tendency to leap in and
>hug trees without thinking of the consequences.
I was a tree warden for three years, and received some good instruction
from the Forestry Commission, Council Forestry people, conservation
people etc. I say that, not to give you the impression that I know it
all, I most certainly don't, but just to let you know I don't talk from
a completely ignorant standpoint.
You'll be suprised to hear that I also have been heard to suggest that
trees *are* cut down, where they have been planted too near
roads/properties, are diseased, planted too close to each other etc.
Jim
In article <wg$FWHATc...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>
ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk "Tina J Perrett" writes:
>
> I'm sorry, but I *hate* trees that took hundreds of years to grow being
> chopped down for something that will be outmoded in just a few years.
>
The automobile is now over a 100 years old yet you can see it being outmoded
in a couple of years. Hmmmm - Can I borrow your crystal ball.
Thats not to mention that the economy of half the western world revolves
around the infernal combustion engine. Cars will be around longer than
Hula - bloody - Hoops.
--
/\_/\
{ . . } Jim
\(o)/
~
Alec Cawley
In article <834435...@mcgwin.demon.co.uk>, John McGinlay
<Jo...@mcgwin.demon.co.uk> writes
>> should someone else undergo the expense for your benefit?
>
> with age, and kept regurgitating the same old themes as well.
Asimov suggested that this was not a smooth progression but a sharp jump
occasioned by a change of wife.
Alec -
Craig Oldfield
In article: <834443...@mist.demon.co.uk> Iolo Davidson
<io...@mist.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > John McGinlay (who nearly forgot how pointless it is to have
> > a 'discussion' with Iolo around)
>
> Participation is entirely voluntary.
*Now* you tell me.
--
Craig Oldfield
Adam Lloyd
Fear the trees.
Neil Tungate
John McGinlay <Jo...@mcgwin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>John McGinlay (who nearly forgot how pointless it is to have a 'discussion'
> with Iolo around)
Or to put it another way, Iolo's arguments are watertight!
--
Neil (the original)
Save a local record shop - buy, buy, buy!
leo
In article <LovCKJAY...@blakjak.demon.co.uk>
da...@blakjak.demon.co.uk "David Stevenson" writes:
> John McGinlay wrote:
>
> >In article <chxG1AAs...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>
> > ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk "Tina J Perrett" writes:
> >
> >> When planting trees you don't plant them for yourself, its not possible.
> >> I know I won't live long enough to see the trees I've planted in their
> >> full splendour, another generation will.
> >
> > I admire your sentiments and motives.
> >
> > There was a series of documentaries recently about the landscape
> > gardeners of the 18 and 19 centuries. What impressed the hell out of me
> > was the vision these people had, that they could plan an estate or
> > garden, and visualise what it might look like in 40-50 years time.
> > And also that they were willing to do it, knowing that they themselves
> > would never see the full glory. Not for them the 'quick fix, short term
> > gains' approach that is now the order of the day.
> >
> Nowadays the landscape gardener could 'see' the effects of his work in
> 50 or 100 year's time by computer simulation.
'Then' the landscape designer could 'see' the effects of his work in
50 or 100 year's time by model-building or drawing
--
leo
David Stevenson
John McGinlay wrote:
>In article <chxG1AAs...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>
> ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk "Tina J Perrett" writes:
>
>> When planting trees you don't plant them for yourself, its not possible.
>> I know I won't live long enough to see the trees I've planted in their
>> full splendour, another generation will.
>
> I admire your sentiments and motives.
>
> There was a series of documentaries recently about the landscape
> gardeners of the 18 and 19 centuries. What impressed the hell out of me
> was the vision these people had, that they could plan an estate or
> garden, and visualise what it might look like in 40-50 years time.
> And also that they were willing to do it, knowing that they themselves
> would never see the full glory. Not for them the 'quick fix, short term
> gains' approach that is now the order of the day.
>
Nowadays the landscape gardener could 'see' the effects of his work in
50 or 100 year's time by computer simulation.
Jim
In article <ADE245DF...@firthcom.demon.co.uk>
fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk "Steve Firth" writes:
> In article <wg$FWHATc...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>,
> Tina J Perrett <ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I'm sorry, but I *hate* trees that took hundreds of years to grow being
> >chopped down for something that will be outmoded in just a few years.
>
> Did you know that there is a crisis in forestry at the moment because of
What crisis - too many trees and too little profit?
> the success of the greens in getting people to recycle paper? It also now
> looks to be more wasteful to recycle paper than to fell trees and make new.
>
And where do you propose we dispose of all paper that is not recycled?
The Aylesford Newsprint plant in Kent (just one of many companies into
paper recycling) consumes 800 tonne of waste paper a day. That is a fraction
of what they could recycle. Perhaps we should revert to landfill. I mean
those bloody big scars across the landscape are so pretty.
Tina J Perrett
In article <834447...@mcgwin.demon.co.uk>, John McGinlay
<Jo...@mcgwin.demon.co.uk> writes
> I admire your sentiments and motives.
Thank you.
> There was a series of documentaries recently about the landscape
> gardeners of the 18 and 19 centuries. What impressed the hell out of me
> was the vision these people had, that they could plan an estate or
> garden, and visualise what it might look like in 40-50 years time.
> And also that they were willing to do it, knowing that they themselves
> would never see the full glory. Not for them the 'quick fix, short term
> gains' approach that is now the order of the day.
>
Yes I think old Capability Brown was quite a clever geezer. I know that
he could have modelled things using cotton wool balls, sticky backed
plastic etc, but some of the vistas he created.......I think they
transcend that.......for those you just have to have vision.
Tina J Perrett
In article <834415...@yemeads.demon.co.uk>, Jim
<J...@yemeads.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>> I'm sorry, but I *hate* trees that took hundreds of years to grow being
>> chopped down for something that will be outmoded in just a few years.
>>
>in a couple of years.
<sigh> Not the automobile.........the bypass...........
> Hmmmm - Can I borrow your crystal ball.
No I need it for picking the numbers for the lottery :)
>Thats not to mention that the economy of half the western world revolves
>around the infernal combustion engine. Cars will be around longer than
>Hula - bloody - Hoops.
Yeah you're right, a bag of hula hoops lasts just seconds......in my
experience :)
Richard Robinson
In article <ADE245DF...@firthcom.demon.co.uk>,
Steve Firth <fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Being eco-friendly is all very well, but there's a tendency to leap in and
>hug trees without thinking of the consequences.
:-)
--
Richard Robinson, Leeds, UK ric...@beulah.demon.co.uk
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
Donald R. Oddy
In article <A4OFeFAg...@glost.demon.co.uk>
Pe...@glost.demon.co.uk "Pete Rodger" writes:
I keep expecting to hear of Tony Blair joining John Major's cabinet.
--
Donald
Donald R. Oddy
In article <ant10023...@sc3d.demon.co.uk>
ds...@sc3d.demon.co.uk "Donald McFarlane" writes:
>In article <wg$FWHATc...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>, Tina J Perrett
><mailto:ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> We might as well save ourselves all the bother and just pour the
>> concrete all over the UK right now........because as sure as eggs are
>> eggs in another ten years they'll be a new Newbury bypass, because the
>> last one they built will be clogged up and sadly inadequate.
>
>You'll be surprised to hear I agree with you in a sense. It is of course
>quite absurd that the planning process should be allowed to take as long as
>it does to the extent that e.g. the M25 comes in a decade late and with
>a number of lanes concomitant only with the traffic of the era for which it
>had originally been planned. Clearly, such projects as this, the channel
>tuunel rail link, etc., should be exempt from planning approval subject to
>standing select committee approval (recall the MOD car park -- grounds
>of national security and all that?)
Why should the local input of planning permission be excluded for certain
high profile projects? We already suffer from local decisions being
overruled by Whitehall manderins who have no knowledge of the local
situation. It is true that the process takes to long, but it is the
DOE and the appeals process that drags it out.
>and should be planned with sufficiently
>large verges and long bridge crossings that an increase of the lanes from
>3+HS to 5 or 6 +HS depending on location could be achieved at a later date
>without widening works or requirements to close anything other than the hard
>shoulder. If lighting is anticipated, then provision should be made for this
>initially, and the lighting design should allow for ready upgrade of head to
>cover the widened carriageway. I also happen to believe that there is a lot
>to be said for the practice of having a large (grassed) central reservation,
>with the crash barriers removed from the side of the road to the middle of
>that reservation. Either that or a second HS on the RHS of the overtaking
>lane, but that's awfully expensive.
The whole problem is that the forecasts are frequently widely inaccurate,
the M25 being a classic example. No one predicted that its existance
would encourage travel around London to the extent it did. They also
make mistakes the other way and provide a road far in excess of the
traffic levels actually reached. There is also the issue of cost - to
provide for every eventuality is expensive and therefore such extras
get trimmed from budgets.
The stupidist element of motorway design though, is the way in which
each motorway is planned in isolation. Thus you have a new 3-lane
motorway feeding straight into an already heavily used one causing
instant congestion.
--
Donald
Donald R. Oddy
In article <ADE245DF...@firthcom.demon.co.uk>
fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk "Steve Firth" writes:
>In article <wg$FWHATc...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>,
>Tina J Perrett <ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I'm sorry, but I *hate* trees that took hundreds of years to grow being
>>chopped down for something that will be outmoded in just a few years.
>
>Did you know that there is a crisis in forestry at the moment because of
>the success of the greens in getting people to recycle paper? It also now
>looks to be more wasteful to recycle paper than to fell trees and make new.
Actually the forestry crisis is due to a government scheme which gave
generous tax relief for investment in forestry about 10 - 15 years ago.
This caused vast areas of land to be planted with quick growing conifers
which are now mature. The tax relief has now been withdrawn because it
was costing the government a lot of revenue and the envirionmental
results were not as positive as predicted.
--
Donald
David Stevenson
Richard Robinson wrote:
>In article <ADE245DF...@firthcom.demon.co.uk>,
>Steve Firth <fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Being eco-friendly is all very well, but there's a tendency to leap in and
>>hug trees without thinking of the consequences.
>
>:-)
>
You get bark in your clothes?
leo
In article <0B8UpDAb...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>
ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk "Tina J Perrett" writes:
> >Did you know that there is a crisis in forestry at the moment because of
> >the success of the greens in getting people to recycle paper?
>
> Hopefully then it'll put an end to those depressing pine trees that seem
> only to grow in rows and provide tax breaks for Tory ministers and the
> like. Trees that in my opinion *deserve* to die! :)
I'm doing my best .. (pant pant)
--
leo
leo
In article <31bde0c8...@news.demon.co.uk>
ne...@skipper.demon.co.uk "Neil Tungate" writes:
> John McGinlay <Jo...@mcgwin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >John McGinlay (who nearly forgot how pointless it is to have a 'discussion'
> > with Iolo around)
>
> Or to put it another way, Iolo's arguments are watertight!
Ideatight, I would say
--
leo
leo
In article <834535...@mist.demon.co.uk>
io...@mist.demon.co.uk "Iolo Davidson" writes:
> > 'Then' the landscape designer could 'see' the effects of his work in
> > 50 or 100 year's time by model-building or drawing
>
> I would have thought they were paid when they finished the
> planting.
I suspect that the landscape gardener would have been involved in a fair
amount of maintenance and tweaking for a few years after the main works
were completed.
--
leo
Steve Firth
In article <834443...@mist.demon.co.uk>,
Iolo Davidson <io...@mist.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Heinlein wrote a novel in which trees had become so scarce that
>jewellery was made of wood, but later in the narrative, a
>rebellion was started in a work camp by the spreading of a rumour
>that the food was adulterated with sawdust.
Asimov indicated that consistency was the hobgoblin of small minds. Then he
spent his last years attempting to make all his novels consistent by
writing a few "link" books to explain the many differences between his
major works.
Alec Cawley
In article <834442...@mist.demon.co.uk>, Iolo Davidson
<io...@mist.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <rUrZICAk...@cawley.demon.co.uk>
> al...@cawley.demon.co.uk "Alec Cawley" writes:
>
>> 100 hours per year of my one and only life wasted
>
I don't *think* so. Just the conflict of family, garden, net,
television, computer games, bloody paperwork, writing the Magnum Opus,
helping with the houswork for a limited supply of spare time. Adding ten
minutes each way of inspecting other peoples boot lids just is not a
helpful addition to my life.
Alec -
David Brown
> In article <ADE245DF...@firthcom.demon.co.uk>, Steve Firth
> <fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk> writes
> >Did you know that there is a crisis in forestry at the moment because of
> >the success of the greens in getting people to recycle paper?
>
> Hopefully then it'll put an end to those depressing pine trees that seem
> only to grow in rows and provide tax breaks for Tory ministers and the
> like. Trees that in my opinion *deserve* to die! :)
> > >
> >There's noting wrong wrong with cutting down trees, provided you plant some
> >replacements.
>
> I agree in principle. Although they don't just become mature overnight.
>
> You'll be suprised to hear that I also have been heard to suggest that
> trees *are* cut down, where they have been planted too near
> roads/properties, are diseased, planted too close to each other etc.
In part I agree; I think that there should be far more hardwood planting
- probably interspersed with the softwood. That gives mixed cover but also
allows for cutting of softwood to set off against the total cost. As for
hardwood, when it has to be cut I would far prefer coppicing whenever that is
at all feasible (this was how they grew oak for the navy).
Yes, there will be trees planted too close to each other - ripe for thinning
out when necessary but avoiding huge gaps resulting from saplings not
surviving. If I were a dictator I think that I would insist that farm land
taken out of use be forested with mixed trees.
As an "expert", Tina; the Caledonian Forest is said to have been primarily Oak;
is there any silvicultural reason why oaks cannot be replanted or is it now
too acid?
--
David (t'Real one)
Steve Firth
In article <834514...@yemeads.demon.co.uk>,
Jim <J...@yemeads.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>And where do you propose we dispose of all paper that is not recycled?
Burn it, it's an ecologically sound (renewable) source of energy. Burning
wood (and paper) is more energy efficient than making photovoltaic cells to
harvest sunlight, a lot prettier (I like pine forests), and it contributes
no (0) CO2 towards global warming.
I leave the reader to perform the trivial task of working out the details.
Piers Samwell-Smith
>
> In article <ADE245DF...@firthcom.demon.co.uk>, Steve Firth
> <fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk> writes
> >Did you know that there is a crisis in forestry at the moment because of
> >the success of the greens in getting people to recycle paper?
>
> Hopefully then it'll put an end to those depressing pine trees that seem
> only to grow in rows and provide tax breaks for Tory ministers and the
> like. Trees that in my opinion *deserve* to die! :)
Seconded. Bloody Alien Conifers, I pine for a mixed woodland.
> (Silly move that Tina, you know tongue in cheek comments on dl are
> always doomed to failure).
> >
> >There's noting wrong wrong with cutting down trees, provided you plant some
> >replacements.
>
> I agree in principle. Although they don't just become mature overnight.
And sadly that leads most people to plant fast growing pine.
> > The same silly mistake was made in the New Forest where the
> >usual practise of clear-felling was abandoned. The change in strategy
> >caused the near extinction of the sparrowhawk and several species of
> >butterfly which need forest clearings in which to breed and find food.
>
> I agree. Proper forest management is very important, without it the
> trees get sick and spindly, (in addition to the wildlife problems you
> mention).
I often ask myself how all the great forests survived without management
for thousands of years.
--
Morning Salad Rebellion
Alan Price
In article <834447...@mcgwin.demon.co.uk>
John McGinlay <Jo...@mcgwin.demon.co.uk> said:-
>In article <chxG1AAs...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>
> ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk "Tina J Perrett" writes:
>
>> When planting trees you don't plant them for yourself, its not possible.
>> I know I won't live long enough to see the trees I've planted in their
>> full splendour, another generation will.
>
> I admire your sentiments and motives.
>
> There was a series of documentaries recently about the landscape
> gardeners of the 18 and 19 centuries. What impressed the hell out of me
> was the vision these people had, that they could plan an estate or
> garden, and visualise what it might look like in 40-50 years time.
> And also that they were willing to do it, knowing that they themselves
> would never see the full glory. Not for them the 'quick fix, short term
> gains' approach that is now the order of the day.
>
Not entirely. One of the local Stately Homes (Tatton Park?) has on display
a large horse-drawn cart/winch thing which was used in the 19th c. to
transplant mature trees.
Perhaps it was the landowner who commissioned the landscaping who was
impatient.
--
apr...@postern.demon.co.uk Alan Price
Mike Fleming
In article <9606100...@pierrot.demon.co.uk>
t...@pierrot.demon.co.uk "Terrance Richard Boyes" writes:
> The only sane and practical way to deal with the transport problems is to
> increase the amount and effectiveness of public transport, be it rail, bus
> or other. These have been very badly hit especially in the last few years.
>
> I noticed that recently there has been wide cross-party support to encourage
> the use of pushbikes for short journeys. Now that is something sensible...
But the recent White Paper makes no mention of motorcycles,
which cut congestion - though they're not a norful lot more
economical than cars when you go for the larger capacity models.
--
Mike (DF) Fleming MAG #79794 DoD #4446 Greenpeace #567708F UKMC #9
Save the slug, save the slug, save the slug, save the slug
They're not cute and sexy, they're covered in slime
But so many species have run out of time
Mike Fleming
In article <ADE4CDB6...@firthcom.demon.co.uk>
fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk "Steve Firth" writes:
> Asimov indicated that consistency was the hobgoblin of small minds. Then he
> spent his last years attempting to make all his novels consistent by
> writing a few "link" books to explain the many differences between his
> major works.
It was a quote from Emerson (Keith's dad?) who said that a
foolish consistency was the hobgoblin of little minds.
Then again, in the foreword to 'Nemesis' he said he hadn't tried
to fit it in with his other books, though it used some ideas
(notably the hyperdrive) from previous works.
Pete Rodger
In article <noKoEGAB...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>, Tina J Perrett
<ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> writes
>Tina J Perrett - There now follows an advert on behalf of Steven J Lilley:-
>The lightest Cakes, Pastry, Puddings &c., are made using BORWICK's BAKING
>POWDER. the Best and Purest in the World. Resolutely Refuse all Substitutes.
--
Pete
David Hadley
Tina J Perrett <ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
**VIOLATION ALERT**
**VIOLATION ALERT**
>all, I most certainly don't, but just to let you know I don't talk from
>a completely ignorant standpoint.
You have violated the Prime Directive of Usenet.
Please leave this thread immediately by the nearest available exit and
prepare for suspension of *all* Newsgroup privileges.
Thank you for your co-operation in this matter.
Failure to comply within the permitted time-period will result in
*FULL* Keeganisation of your cerebral cortex.
--
David Hadley
Paul Spencer
Mike Fleming <Mi...@tauzero.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>But the recent White Paper makes no mention of motorcycles,
>which cut congestion - though they're not a norful lot more
>economical than cars when you go for the larger capacity models.
I go for a larger capacity model, and think any road bike is a norful
lot more economical.
--
Paul, who knows what Mike means but replies to what he writes.
Donald McFarlane
In article <834535...@grove.demon.co.uk>, Donald R. Oddy
<mailto:don...@grove.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Why should the local input of planning permission be excluded for certain
> high profile projects? We already suffer from local decisions being
> overruled by Whitehall manderins who have no knowledge of the local
> situation. It is true that the process takes to long, but it is the
> DOE and the appeals process that drags it out.
Indeed it is the drawn out processes which matter, and there is room for local
input. Local input could be garnered in a few weeks by employing a market
research firm and offering any interested parties who remain unquestioned to
present a summary of their comments.
I see no need for local government to be drawn into the process as power
brokers, although one might equally well expect a select committee to call
on them to give evidence.
> The whole problem is that the forecasts are frequently widely inaccurate,
> the M25 being a classic example. No one predicted that its existance
> would encourage travel around London to the extent it did.
Nonsense. See, for example, nCE articles of that era (which I hasten to add
are no longer to hand at this end). As always, there was a wide range of
opinion, but the crucial point at issue, irrespective of their overall good
judgement, is that the road was designed for about a decade before it was
ultimately built.
> They also
> make mistakes the other way and provide a road far in excess of the
> traffic levels actually reached.
Where? I have come upon some excellent roads, which have a far lower
traffic density than such roads as the M25 to the extent that they
are on a par with what one might hope for. But, I have yet to come across
any which IMHO have capacity far in excess of use (in this country).
I could well believe it in the context of the below, tho', where extra
capacity is being implemented in stages. That's a little different.
> The stupidist element of motorway design though, is the way in which
> each motorway is planned in isolation. Thus you have a new 3-lane
> motorway feeding straight into an already heavily used one causing
> instant congestion.
I agree entirely. And not just in terms of motorways feeding onto motorways,
but onto country roads. To come back to the M25 example, one minute one may
be travelling on a 3 or 4 lane carriageway, the next on a two-way road which
isn't wide enough to take 2 large cars side by side, twists and turns with
overhanging hedges and resultant visibility of a few to tens of metres, and
pedestrian and agricultural traffic and pedal cyclists, double decker buses,
articulated lorries, etc.
A massive overhaul of the rural road system is required. If the Romans
and the Americans can manage it, why can't we? Bloody apathetic, that's us...
--
home page: http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/sc3d/dsmcf/index.html
Vodafone GSM: +44-385-780073 (SMS welcome)
... Do not drink coffee in early A.M. It will keep you awake until noon.
Donald McFarlane
In article <834610...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>, David Brown
<mailto:da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> As an "expert", Tina; the Caledonian Forest is said to have been primarily Oak;
> is there any silvicultural reason why oaks cannot be replanted or is it now
> too acid?
The way I heard it, it's because the added grazing land and farming culture
means we now have too many animals around to eat them up when they're young.
Would the same kind of protection they give to the fast growing softwoods last
long enough for oaks? And is it just the way they've been trained, or don't
the mass grown trees tend to have less of a span at an early stage than an oak
shoot? Presumably one would need a much wider plastic tube thing...
You may have gathered that I'm *not* an expert on this one.
--
home page: http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/sc3d/dsmcf/index.html
Vodafone GSM: +44-385-780073 (SMS welcome)
... Chicken Little was right.
John McGinlay
In article <834617...@mist.demon.co.uk>
io...@mist.demon.co.uk "Iolo Davidson" writes:
> Your brain shrinks as you get older.
--
John McGinlay (biting his tongue...)
Michael Ozanne
In article <834535...@grove.demon.co.uk>
don...@grove.demon.co.uk "Donald R. Oddy" writes:
* The whole problem is that the forecasts are frequently widely inaccurate,
* the M25 being a classic example. No one predicted that its existance
* would encourage travel around London to the extent it did. They also
* make mistakes the other way and provide a road far in excess of the
* traffic levels actually reached. There is also the issue of cost - to
* provide for every eventuality is expensive and therefore such extras
* get trimmed from budgets.
AFAIR the DOT civil servants planned the M25 as an 8 lane system but the
government of the day overruled them.
--
Michael Ozanne
John McGinlay
In article <83465494...@postern.demon.co.uk>
apr...@postern.demon.co.uk "Alan Price" writes:
> Not entirely. One of the local Stately Homes (Tatton Park?) has on display
> a large horse-drawn cart/winch thing which was used in the 19th c. to
> transplant mature trees.
Hmmm...wonder if they'll be using that at this weekends' show?
I can just imagine The Duke and Charlie-boy in rig like that -
The Duke saying 'gee up' to the horses, and Charlie in the back,
talking to the tree...
--
John McGinlay (living all of 15 minutes drive (by car, not carriage)
from Tatton)
Mike Fleming
In article <834575...@simsems.demon.co.uk>
Pi...@simsems.demon.co.uk "Piers Samwell-Smith" writes:
> In article <0B8UpDAb...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>
> ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk "Tina J Perrett" writes:
> >
> > Hopefully then it'll put an end to those depressing pine trees that seem
> > only to grow in rows and provide tax breaks for Tory ministers and the
> > like. Trees that in my opinion *deserve* to die! :)
>
> Seconded. Bloody Alien Conifers, I pine for a mixed woodland.
What was that area in Scotland where pine trees were planted
where no tree had ever gone before (Terry Wogan had something to
do with this)?
> I often ask myself how all the great forests survived without management
> for thousands of years.
And what did you reply?
Piers Samwell-Smith
In article <834610...@dbrown.demon.co.uk>
da...@dbrown.demon.co.uk "David Brown" writes:
[s]
> hardwood, when it has to be cut I would far prefer coppicing whenever that is
> at all feasible (this was how they grew oak for the navy).
[s]
> As an "expert", Tina; the Caledonian Forest is said to have been primarily Oak;
> is there any silvicultural reason why oaks cannot be replanted or is it now
> too acid?
Anyone spot the connection (apart from overly long lines)?
--
Suck The Goat
John Hall
In article <834706...@tauzero.demon.co.uk>, Mike Fleming
<Mi...@tauzero.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <834575...@simsems.demon.co.uk>
> Pi...@simsems.demon.co.uk "Piers Samwell-Smith" writes:
>
>> In article <0B8UpDAb...@wunjo.demon.co.uk>
>> ti...@wunjo.demon.co.uk "Tina J Perrett" writes:
>> >
>> > Hopefully then it'll put an end to those depressing pine trees that seem
>> > only to grow in rows and provide tax breaks for Tory ministers and the
>> > like. Trees that in my opinion *deserve* to die! :)
>>
>> Seconded. Bloody Alien Conifers, I pine for a mixed woodland.
>
>What was that area in Scotland where pine trees were planted
>where no tree had ever gone before (Terry Wogan had something to
>do with this)?
The Flow Country? I've seen at least one writer complaining that the
last great wilderness of the British Isles has been ruined by the tree
planting.
--
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come
sit next to me.
Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Piers Samwell-Smith
In article <834706...@tauzero.demon.co.uk>
Mi...@tauzero.demon.co.uk "Mike Fleming" writes:
> In article <834575...@simsems.demon.co.uk>
> Pi...@simsems.demon.co.uk "Piers Samwell-Smith" writes:
>
> > I often ask myself how all the great forests survived without management
> > for thousands of years.
>
> And what did you reply?
Nurse! Err, I didn't say anything but this little ladybird was listening
at the window. She must have heard my question for it was she who
provided the answer...
--
Morning Salad Rebellion