NorthRidge (TBC)
jillsl...@my-deja.com
This is the "8-Step Spiritual Journey."
"Step 1 Pursue friendships with nonbelivers
Step 2 Share your faith
Step 3 Inviting them to weekend church
***Step 4 Persist until they believe***
Step 5 Attend "New Life" (NorthRidge's midweek worship and teaching
service)
Step 6 Join a serving team
Step 7 Excel in the grace of giving
Step 8 Apprentice someone spiritually"
But, you really have to continue further and read some of the other
stuff before you devote all your attention to that phrase...
"In Non-Essential Beliefs
We believe there should be liberty. "Accept him whose faith is weak,
without passing judgment on disputable matters. Who are you to judge
someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he
will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. So then, each of us
will give an account of himself to God. So whatever you believe about
these things keep between yourself and God." Romans 14:1,4,12"
That is from the page about the Beliefs of the church. Hopefully that
clears up any thoughts that it is still the old TBC. Has anyone been
the their web site? It is packed with information about the church.
Has anyone been to NorthRidge?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
b...@idealsys.net
> Has anyone been the their web site?
Yes.
> Has anyone been to NorthRidge?
No, but I'm familiar with the models they use (i.e. Saddleback,
WillowCreek, etc). Good changes. I am dropping in on Wednesday night,
however, to pick up tickets for the Third Day concert for a group of
us. Plus, I saw Suzanne Sommerville at CostCo the other night, so does
that count?
Paul Edwards
I have attended one service at Northridge. It was the Sunday after
Christmas 1997. I am tempted to write a very long
philosophical/theological treatise on what I found right and wrong with
the service, but I won't. (But then again, it's early...maybe I
will!).
Here is what I experienced. Keep in mind that I am not the narrow,
legalistic nerd you may remember from high school. I consider myself
progressive, I love contemporary Christian music, value worship
choruses as much (if not more than) hymns, and long ago traded my KJV
for an NASB.
This is MY opinion: the service was completely new age. It was opened
by the choir singing a rollicking song in the "Jesus Christ Superstar"
genre -- something about "Bringing It On Down" -- I suppose the "It"
was left to the individuals in the audience to decide what they
wanted "It" to be. The crowd was immediately worked into a
psychological frenzy. From the moment the service began I felt I was
in the middle of controlled chaos.
My cousin-in-law sang a duet that morning with the music pastor's son.
The song was a warm fuzzy about the holidays being over and never
mentioned God or Jesus one time.
Brad (the Pastor) then spoke for 55 minutes in a seminar format on how
Jesus can make your life successful. He frequently used the
phrase "the life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ" but never once
explained what "the life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ" was. No one
was told to open a Bible; most people didn't have one. As a matter of
fact they are encouraged NOT to bring a Bible. The verses are
projected on the screens and printed in the outline included with the
bulletin.
Temple B-----t Northridge (expletive deleted) is certainly not the same
church I spent my adolescent years in. Some of that is good (the
legalism is gone) but much of it is bad (the doctrinal distinctives are
also gone).
I am all for reaching the current culture in relevant ways. But Temple
has made a god out of technology. For them, the MEDIUM (technology,
drama, performance) overrides the MESSAGE ("Christ Jesus came into the
world to save sinners"). Bottom line theological point: it is
impossible to reach "seekers" (unbelievers) without clearly
distinquishing the demands of the Gospel from the warm, fuzzy feeling
one gets from a "seeker-sensitive" service. My PERSONAL OPINION is
that Temple is preaching a gospel of feeling that appeals to the
psychological side of the majority of Americans but does nothing to
produce true conversion to Jesus Christ in the biblical sense of that
term.
There are many good churches in Metro Detroit that have succeeded in
being progressive, contemporary and relevant without compromising the
clear demands of the Gospel: Oake Pointe Church in Northville,
Kensington Community Church in Troy, and Cornerstone Baptist in
Roseville among them. And, unlike Temple, these churches were started
from scratch and developed their own unique philosophy of ministry.
They did not take the resources of an already established church and
use them to recreate a church that is clearly in opposition to its
heritage, history and doctrinal distinctives, as Brad Powell did at
Temple.
For a fuller treatise on this subject I recommend the book: "Willow
Creek Seeker Services" by G.A. Pritchard. He describes the Northridge
philosophy in detail complete with its pros and cons.
Just my humble opinion...
Paul
pedw...@highlandparkbaptist.com
b...@idealsys.net
mo...@my-deja.com
> No, but I'm familiar with the models they use (i.e. Saddleback,
> WillowCreek, etc). Good changes. I am dropping in on Wednesday night,
> however, to pick up tickets for the Third Day concert for a group of
> us. Plus, I saw Suzanne Sommerville at CostCo the other night, so does
> that count?
Now wait a minute, Third Day (another good Georgia band) is playing at
NorthRidge? Cool. I might move back to Michigan for that. Bob, I have
changed the music I listen to from last summer. We had a discussion
about regular old alternative bands. Now I am into Christian
alternative bands. My favs so far are Audio Adrenaline, DC Talk,
Newsboys, Sonic Flood. We don't have a decent Christian station in
Athens, so I have to listen to them in the store first. Any suggestions
of others I may like?
I'm so ditzy. I almost had to ask who Suzanne Sommerville was. But you
should all be glad to know my brain infarct has passed and I remember.
Paul, where the heck have ya been? What's new?
Has Tim said when the bundle of joy is due to arrive?
Did y'all do a good job of celebrating Renee's b-day?
A couple of churches in Athens do the words of music on the screen
thing, but I find it a bit distracting. Don't know why though.
Why does NorthRidge discourage bringing Bibles? One question -- Do the
Sunday School classes (or Bible study or whatever you want to call them)
not meet every Sunday? Jilly, the next time I'm up there, I would love
to go with you. Don't think I will be there for a while yet. Not
planning a trip this year. I'm thinking about getting recertified as a
teacher, but science this time. It'll take 3 semesters. Don't know if
I can afford it. But if I do, then there will be lots of trips up
there.
Love to all,
Moe
jillsl...@my-deja.com
> Now wait a minute, Third Day (another good Georgia band) is playing at
> NorthRidge? Cool. I might move back to Michigan for that. Bob, I have
> changed the music I listen to from last summer. We had a discussion
> about regular old alternative bands. Now I am into Christian
> alternative bands. My favs so far are Audio Adrenaline, DC Talk,
> Newsboys, Sonic Flood.
Hey Moesy, all those bands have been to NorthRidge, also! It's a
regular concert arena now.
> A couple of churches in Athens do the words of music on the screen
> thing, but I find it a bit distracting. Don't know why though.
You get used to it after awhile. You ususally learn the words, just
like any old song...
> Why does NorthRidge discourage bringing Bibles?
Easy answer to that one! THEY DON"T!!! Brad references many passages
and they are on the screen. It's a different kind of "talk" not the
usual hell fire and brimstone from one chapter in the Bible.
>One question -- Do the
> Sunday School classes (or Bible study or whatever you want to call
them)
> not meet every Sunday?
That would be ABF or Adult Bible Fellowship. And they meet every other
Sunday since they have run out of space. Construction on the second
phase of the building is to start in June which will be Sunday School
classrooms and nursery for the little ones so the ABF's will have more
space to meet everyweek in the existing building. Temple had under
1,000 people attending on Sundays when it left Redford. Last Sunday,
there were over 3,000 in attendance between the two services!
>Jilly, the next time I'm up there, I would love
> to go with you.
You're cordially invited and I do bring my NIV Bible. No KJV.
>Don't think I will be there for a while yet. Not
> planning a trip this year. I'm thinking about getting recertified as a
> teacher, but science this time. It'll take 3 semesters. Don't know if
> I can afford it. But if I do, then there will be lots of trips up
> there.
Cool Moe. I was thinkig of doing that when I grow up. It would have
to be English, though. Me and Science don't mix.
Later ya'll.
b...@idealsys.net
> Now wait a minute, Third Day (another good Georgia band) is playing at
> NorthRidge? Cool. I might move back to Michigan for that. Bob, I have
> changed the music I listen to from last summer. We had a discussion
> about regular old alternative bands. Now I am into Christian
> alternative bands. My favs so far are Audio Adrenaline, DC Talk,
> Athens, so I have to listen to them in the store first. Any
suggestions of others I may like?
Wow. Interesting change. And to think, I was getting ready to get into
Collective Soul and Creed... ;)
I think you'd like some of the following, based on your above tastes
(which, BTW, I happy to share most):
Margaret Becker - Falling Forward
Caedmon's Call - 40 Acres
The Choir - Free Flying Soul
Jars of Clay - If I Left The Zoo
Rich Mullins - Songs
Out of the Grey - See Inside
PFR - every one
Smalltown Poets - either one
Steve Taylor - Squint
Third Day - every one
That's a short list for now. Hope it helps.
Paul Edwards
My computer died about three months ago. Finally got it fixed so I'm
back online. I'm working at Highland Park Baptist Church in
Southfield. Loving life.
>
> Why does NorthRidge discourage bringing Bibles?
I used the wrong phrase on that one. It's not so much that bringing a
Bible is discouraged as it is that bringing a Bible is not encouraged.
I say that because they make it so easy NOT to bring a Bible:
projecting the verses on a screen and printing them in the outline.
But let me be the first to say that this really is straining at a
gnat. I left the impression that the new and improved Temple doesn't
care about the Bible and that is clearly NOT the case.
mars...@my-deja.com
We all have changed in our faith since high school and who is to say
that my way or your way or whomever's way is the correct way. We all
thought we were so right and true in what we believed in high school
and that has changed so much for everyone and who is to say what is
right now. Who is to say that bringing in a Bible or reading scripture
on a screen is right or wrong. Or what version of the bible we are
reading is the right one. Or that having "swingin'" music during a
service is right or wrong. Or having persist as part of their
philosophy is right or wrong. We all agree that having "rules" shoved
down our throats in high school was not the way to go and having
opinions doing the same thing now is not the way to go either.
I am just glad that we all are still faithful to the Lord and I think
that is what matters. How we choose to worship Him is our own opinion
or way. We are not here to judge what is right and what is wrong with
they way we do it.
I think that having and asking questions about the different ways we
express our faith is a way to learn about others and others faiths.
And learning about other ways and faiths is what led us all to make the
changes in our faith from the way we knew it in high school.
So I say, try not to judge so harshly somone elses faith when the end
result we all have is to worship God.
My humble opinion. And you know what they say about opinions....
Paul Edwards
mars...@my-deja.com wrote:
> So I say, try not to judge so harshly somone elses faith when the end
> result we all have is to worship God.
Marsha,
Contrary views are often viewed as harsh and judgmental, even when they
are not intended to be.
Some pretty harsh and judgmental things have been posted here about
Temple's PAST, but no one seems overly concerned about that.
My concern is not with preserving Temple's history, but rather with
guarding the TRUTH against the easy relativism that pervades our
culture and now our churches. My view of the present Temple is born
out of several years of studying the PHILOSOPHY behind the "seeker-
sensitive" church movement. I find that philosophy theological
flawed. NorthRidge has swallowed it hook, line, and sinker (or is
that "seeker").
I'm not judging anyone or anything. There is a place (and a clear
scriptural command) for exercising biblical DISCERNMENT regarding these
things. The average Christian in our culture has lost their will to
use that discernment. We are ready to accept anything because
it "works" or because it appeals to us or because we are not willing to
say that there is such a thing as an absolute truth as opposed to
the "whatever is right for you" view.
Whether we like to admit it or not, there is a right and a wrong way to
worship God (see Cain's way v. Abel's way in Genesis) and God
ultimately determines how He will be approached in worship, and not our
personal preferences. I'm not suggesting that NorthRidge is right or
wrong in its approach; I'm merely following the scriptural injunction
to "test all things" and "hold on to that which is good".
Paul
jillsl...@my-deja.com
Paul Edwards <pde...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> This is MY opinion: the service was completely new age.
Can't disagree with that. It is of a new age.
>It was opened
> by the choir singing a rollicking song in the "Jesus Christ Superstar"
> genre -- something about "Bringing It On Down" -- I suppose the "It"
> was left to the individuals in the audience to decide what they
> wanted "It" to be.
If I am remembering the song correctly, the choir does a great "gospel"
music inspired song called "Send it on Down" and the rest of the lyrics
say, "Lord let the Holy Ghost come on down..."
>The crowd was immediately worked into a
> psychological frenzy. From the moment the service began I felt I was
> in the middle of controlled chaos.
Because people clap while they are singing? The first time I went, I
have to admit I too thought it was strange. But the second time I went
and looked around the place, I realized people were enjoying being at
church. Like Brad Powell says, why do we go to church and mourn the
Jesus is dead. Shouldn't we go to rejoice that He rose again and we
have life because of that? No funerals there on Sunday.
> Brad (the Pastor) then spoke for 55 minutes in a seminar format on how
> Jesus can make your life successful. He frequently used the
> phrase "the life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ" but never once
> explained what "the life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ" was
Brad, to me and most there, speaks in a way that is relavant to people
today. And yes to "seekers" because there are a lot of people there
each week who are new. He isn't preaching a different message, he's
saying it in a way that is applicable to my every day life. He
explains to everyone how to understand and use what is said in the
Bible, not just that we are unworthy sinners and we're going to hell if
we don't listen and repent. If you know any thing about the church,
Wednesday is no longer just a prayer meeting, it is called the "New
Life" service or the service for believers that really delves into the
greater meaning or "the life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ" as you so
eloquently put it.
> Temple B-----t Northridge (expletive deleted) is certainly not the
>same
Baptist was not considered an expletive. It just did not fit anymore.
Why align yourselves with a group that most people have a misconception
of if you still believe and teach the same thing and by eliminating,
you are able to reach more people who are not turned off by the name?
> I am all for reaching the current culture in relevant ways. But Temple
> has made a god out of technology. For them, the MEDIUM (technology,
> drama, performance) overrides the MESSAGE ("Christ Jesus came into the
> world to save sinners").
Why are you afraid of technology, Paul? It is just another medium by
which to read lyrics, etc. It does not replace the Bible which most
people I see bring with them every Sunday and definately on Wednesday.
>Bottom line theological point: it is
> impossible to reach "seekers" (unbelievers) without clearly
> distinquishing the demands of the Gospel from the warm, fuzzy feeling
> one gets from a "seeker-sensitive" service. My PERSONAL OPINION is
> that Temple is preaching a gospel of feeling that appeals to the
> psychological side of the majority of Americans but does nothing to
> produce true conversion to Jesus Christ in the biblical sense of that
> term.
My only answer to that is I don't believe you have been there or know
enough about it to really understand what goes on there.
> There are many good churches in Metro Detroit that have succeeded in
> being progressive, contemporary and relevant without compromising the
> clear demands of the Gospel: Oake Pointe Church in Northville,
> Kensington Community Church in Troy, and Cornerstone Baptist in
> Roseville among them. And, unlike Temple, these churches were started
> from scratch and developed their own unique philosophy of ministry.
> They did not take the resources of an already established church and
> use them to recreate a church that is clearly in opposition to its
> heritage, history and doctrinal distinctives, as Brad Powell did at
> Temple.
Do you realize, like I said to Moesy earlier, there were about 1,000 or
less in attendance when the church left Reford. There were 3,000 at
church last Sunday. The church has these "Discovering the Church"
classes every so often (every couple of months), where you can come if
you are new, etc. and learn what the church is about, the beliefs,
teachings, etc. and ways you can get involved. We went about 6 months
ago (my husband a former non-practicing Catholic now belongs to the
church) and there were about 95 people there. The last one had over
200. You can't say they are getting the word and the gospel to
people. It is just being delivered in a different manner!
Hope this helps, Paul.
mars...@my-deja.com
Paul Edwards <pedw...@highlandparkbaptist.com> wrote:
> In article <8bamvl$vbp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mars...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > So I say, try not to judge so harshly somone elses faith when the
end
> > result we all have is to worship God.
>
> Marsha,
>
> Contrary views are often viewed as harsh and judgmental, even when
they
> are not intended to be.
>
> Some pretty harsh and judgmental things have been posted here about
> Temple's PAST, but no one seems overly concerned about that.
we have all chosen to grow past those bad things and embrace the good
things. So if we don't sound concerned, we just have moved on.
>
> My concern is not with preserving Temple's history, but rather with
> guarding the TRUTH against the easy relativism that pervades our
> culture and now our churches. My view of the present Temple is born
> out of several years of studying the PHILOSOPHY behind the "seeker-
> sensitive" church movement. I find that philosophy theological
> flawed. NorthRidge has swallowed it hook, line, and sinker (or is
> that "seeker").
Aren't we all seeing God?
>
> I'm not judging anyone or anything. There is a place (and a clear
> scriptural command) for exercising biblical DISCERNMENT regarding
these
> things. The average Christian in our culture has lost their will to
> use that discernment. We are ready to accept anything because
> it "works" or because it appeals to us or because we are not willing
to
> say that there is such a thing as an absolute truth as opposed to
> the "whatever is right for you" view.
Average - I consider myself a pretty darn good one and have not lost my
will to love and follow God.
>
> Whether we like to admit it or not, there is a right and a wrong way
to
> worship God (see Cain's way v. Abel's way in Genesis) and God
> ultimately determines how He will be approached in worship, and not
our
> personal preferences. I'm not suggesting that NorthRidge is right or
> wrong in its approach; I'm merely following the scriptural injunction
> to "test all things" and "hold on to that which is good".
Why is your way the only right way??? Still sounding legalistic there
Paul.
>
> Paul
There are so many ways to interrupt things in the Bible. You, as much
as anyone, know this. You interpreted it one way during Temple days,
and now you interpret it another.
So you changed your view/opinion to what you want it to be so that it
fits you right now. Right? And you say that is wrong?
I may not be as eloquent in my speaking/writing as many, but I hope I
can get my point across even if I can't use big words with all sorts of
meanings that everyone else has to go look up.
jillsl...@my-deja.com
> I'm not suggesting that NorthRidge is right or
> wrong in its approach; I'm merely following the scriptural injunction
> to "test all things" and "hold on to that which is good".
>
Paul,
Not trying to be argumentative, but if you're not saying they are right
or wrong why did you just say they were theologically and biblically
wrong earlier?
Paul Edwards
jillsl...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Paul,
> Not trying to be argumentative, but if you're not saying they are
right
> or wrong why did you just say they were theologically and biblically
> wrong earlier?
What I said was that the PHILOSOPHY behind NorthRidge is theologically
flawed. The APPROACH of NorthRidge to its ministry can be either right
or wrong BUT must be tested against the standard of scripture, as must
every detail of our lives. I am not judging whether or not their
approach (i.e., the way they DO ministry or their program) is either
right or wrong (much of it I agree with - the use of technology, as an
example). The Bible gives us great liberty in HOW we do ministry. My
problem has always been with their PHILOSOPHY BEHIND the approach.
Their PHILOSOPHY is taken nearly 100% from Bill Hybels and Willow Creek
Church in Chicago. It is basically PRAGMATISM -- that is, if 3,000
people show up and enjoy it, we must be doing it (i.e., ministry)
right. Beyond that, it is focused on making the gospel palatable to
the lost. In order to do that, the DEMANDS of the gospel must be
downplayed.
That philosophy at its root is THEOLOGICALLY flawed. Great crowds
often came to Jesus and he often TURNED THEM AWAY (John 2:23-25).
Jesus did not gauge the success of his ministry based on the crowds.
He based the success of His ministry on DOING THE WILL OF HIS FATHER.
And he never softened his approach for anybody.
So I do not believe I am guilty of speaking out of both sides of my
mouth. But at the same time I realize that it is impossible to clearly
state all that I know about this subject in this format. Hence,
confusion and misunderstanding result.
That having been said, I do want you to know, Jill, that I am happy
that you have found at NorthRidge a place where you can connect with
God and the body of Christ. I have friends and family who are members
of NorthRidge and absolutely love it. I have great respect for good
men from the Vick years who are still there supporting the program
(John Paton and Rich Pingilley, among others). Brad Powell is a good
man. He and I have a PHILOSOPHICAL difference of opinion. I apologize
to you if I have disparaged your Pastor in any way. That was never my
intention, though I can see how my posts could be viewed that way.
Forgive me?
Paul
Paul Edwards
behind the NorthRidge Ministry (Willow Creek Detroit), you can read the
following short article titled "Willow Creek Community Church - A Mixed
Review". The author outlines what has impressed him about the Willow
Creek model and what concerns him. His concerns include:
1. The philosophy of pragmatism;
2. The oxymoron of "A Church for the Unchurched";
3. The lack of depth in biblical teaching;
4. The openness to the charismatic movement and its influences;
5. The ecumenical tolerance.
One may say, "Well, that's Willow Creek; we're talking about
NorthRidge." Read the article and those of you who have been to a
service at NorthRidge will see Willow Creek at every turn.
The article can be found at:
http://www.kfg.christen.net/en/willow_e.html
mo...@my-deja.com
>
> Wow. Interesting change. And to think, I was getting ready to get into
> Collective Soul and Creed... ;)
Yeah, I decided that the regular alternative stuff was bringing me down
and keeping me from focusing on the Creator of great music!! So I did
an experiment, stopped listening to our alternative rock station and
started with a few "collections" like WWJD, Listen Louder, and People
Get Ready. It honestly has made a huge difference in my spiritual life.
> I think you'd like some of the following, based on your above tastes
> (which, BTW, I happy to share most):
>
> Margaret Becker - Falling Forward
> Caedmon's Call - 40 Acres
> The Choir - Free Flying Soul
> Jars of Clay - If I Left The Zoo
> Rich Mullins - Songs
> Out of the Grey - See Inside
> PFR - every one
> Smalltown Poets - either one
> Steve Taylor - Squint
> Third Day - every one
>
I haven't heard of The Choir, Out of Grey, or PFR. The others I have
heard or have something by them. I got burned on a few that were
supposedly Christian artists, but I haven't found too much Christ in
their music. One was Sixpence None the Richer. So I am afraid to get
ones that I'm not so sure of their message. Do you really like
Smalltown Poets? I know they are also from Georgia. I know the band,
but I'm not sure I've heard something from them. I love Caedmon's Call
- Thankful.
So, who didn't you like in my list of favs? (pssst, I'm just trying to
start another controversy...)
Moesy
b...@idealsys.net
> Yeah, I decided that the regular alternative stuff was bringing me
down
> and keeping me from focusing on the Creator of great music!! So I did
> an experiment, stopped listening to our alternative rock station and
> started with a few "collections" like WWJD, Listen Louder, and People
> Get Ready. It honestly has made a huge difference in my spiritual
life.
I know what you mean. I want to be aware of what music is out there in
the marketplace so I can speak to it, be it good or bad, but I can't
have that for my regular diet, if you know what I mean. Enough commas?
> I haven't heard of The Choir, Out of Grey, or PFR. The others I have
> heard or have something by them. I got burned on a few that were
> supposedly Christian artists, but I haven't found too much Christ in
> their music. One was Sixpence None the Richer. So I am afraid to get
> ones that I'm not so sure of their message. Do you really like
> Smalltown Poets? I know they are also from Georgia. I know the band,
> but I'm not sure I've heard something from them. I love Caedmon's Call
> - Thankful.
The Choir - cosmic stuff, deep lyrics, rather artsy
Out of the Grey - layers of good stuff underneath a pop veneer
PFR - wow oh wow oh wow - too bad they broke up. Just a simply
WONDERFUL sound (borrowed some harmonies from the Beatles, but
plenty diverse). Just plain old good music, often with depth.
Sixpence - they are a pop band who happen to be Christians. They're not
for edification, they're for the sheer artistry of it. Don't expect
anything else and you won't be let down.
Smalltown Poets - well-written songs (yes, I knew they were Georgia
boys). Reminds me of the Smithereens.
Caedmon's Call - Good quality, though sometimes whiny. 40 Acres was a
more edifying album than their prior one. Thankful is a good tune.
> So, who didn't you like in my list of favs? (pssst, I'm just trying to
> start another controversy...)
Audio Adrenaline - they're...ok. Their name implied a gutsier sound
than I ended up hearing on their CD.
DC Talk - Jesus Freak is a masterpiece. The rap stuff prior I can't
stand. Supernatural was a cohesive album, but lacked the urgency and
clarity of Jesus Freak. Kevin Max may be just a little too big for his
own britches, too.
Newsboys - some clever stuff in the past with Steve Taylor, but "Love
Liberty Disco" used the "D" word and lost me. HATED the title cut,
didn't go any further because of it.
Sonic Flood - good stuff.
Is that enough controversy?