Sex and Mass
I3M
Is the Gnostic Mass/Liber XV based on/around physical sex? Is it a
biological model? What do you think, and why?
93, 93/93
Soror I3M
--
A Witty Saying Proves Nothing ~ Voltaire
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
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ghou...@my-deja.com
I3M <isi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> 93, interesting topic cropped up and I'd like to solicit opinions.
> Is the Gnostic Mass/Liber XV based on/around physical sex? Is it a
> biological model? What do you think, and why?
93
Biological as in sex. Well, no I do not believe it is. So many
Thelemites seem to get hung up on the sexual aspects of it.
Granted, there are some fairly intimate moments in the Mass and the
Priestess is naked after a certain point but still, the sexuality of
the Mass seems to me more of an added side effect rather than the whole
point.
Symbolism is symbolism, not reality. A lance doesn't mean that the
Priest is carrying a big dick around. In a Freudian worldview I suppose
it could but a lance is a weapon of war, Mars. Not a dick. A cup is a
cup and can be seen as the Holy Graal, if you see it as a pussy then I
suppose that getting a coke at McDonalds is a sexually satisfying
experience!
There seems to be an underlying current of sexual tension that gets
built up during a Mass. A lot of communicants have told me that they
were either turned on afterward.
I personally do not go to Mass to get all hot and bothered. I go to
experience the power of the ceremony and to partake of the eucharist
that I believe "is" charged with all those things that the P & P charge
it with. The "naked lady" bit is to me icing on the cake..
Wasn't it Crowley that said that America was hung up sexually? I agree
with him. For all the flap and hype that a lot of Thelemites give it
they are no more sexually free than anyone else. Getting laid by every
member of a congregation doesn't make anyone holier than thou. I might
get *thou* a disease but hey, Do what thou wilt!
If I find Artemis Iota I will post it here. It is in MWT. Very good
article by AC discussing sexuality.
My take on the Mass is that we are creating an Eucharist and partaking
of it. We make something that previously was dead, give it life and
consume it, partaking in its energy and thus we are able to some extent
to use that energy to our own ends. YMMV.
I also think that to bring the Gnostic Mass down to a simply sexual
level is a mistake. It is far, far more than that. ;)
93 93/93
Ghoul418
--
In Nomine Babalon
sha...@my-deja.com
No the mass isn't based around biology. I tried it. I tried it every
which way I could look at it, and it doesn't work... completely. The
reason it seems such is because biology is just one of the infinite
expressions of union. Breathing in and out is another. Having a
particularly good idea is another.
At the point in the mass where the marriage takes place; we play with a
bunch of unrelated objects, which are symbolic of ideas. These ideas
are related to each other in some regular pattern which *mimicks*
another pattern in ..er... "life".
I'm not saying there aren't absolutely blatant sexual references in the
mass. There are. The stroking of the Lance. Yes, this has symbolic
meaning, however, it's expression is sexual in this place.
But consider this too.. the word 'Sperma' simply means "seed" and is
not only suggestive of animal seed (sperm), plant seed, seed of
thought; but specifically point of potentia, containing within it, all
that it will be.
So there.
93,93/93
sharash
In article <860lmu$bk9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
I3M <isi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> 93, interesting topic cropped up and I'd like to solicit opinions.
> Is the Gnostic Mass/Liber XV based on/around physical sex? Is it a
> biological model? What do you think, and why?
> 93, 93/93
> Soror I3M
>
> --
> A Witty Saying Proves Nothing ~ Voltaire
>
aquari...@my-deja.com
article <860lmu$bk9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,> I3M <isi...@my-deja.com> wrote:> >
93, interesting topic cropped up and I'd like to solicit opinions.> > Is the
Gnostic Mass/Liber XV based on/around physical sex? Is it a> > biological
do not believe it is. So many> Thelemites seem to get hung up on the sexual
aspects of it.> Granted, there are some fairly intimate moments in the Mass
and the> Priestess is naked after a certain point but still, the sexuality
of> the Mass seems to me more of an added side effect rather than the whole>
point.> Symbolism is symbolism, not reality. A lance doesn't mean that the>
Priest is carrying a big dick around. In a Freudian worldview I suppose> it
could but a lance is a weapon of war, Mars. Not a dick. A cup is a> cup and
can be seen as the Holy Graal, if you see it as a pussy then I> suppose that
getting a coke at McDonalds is a sexually satisfying> experience!> There
seems to be an underlying current of sexual tension that gets> built up
during a Mass. A lot of communicants have told me that they> were either
turned on afterward.> I personally do not go to Mass to get all hot and
bothered. I go to> experience the power of the ceremony and to partake of the
eucharist> that I believe "is" charged with all those things that the P & P
charge> it with. The "naked lady" bit is to me icing on the cake..> Wasn't
it Crowley that said that America was hung up sexually? I agree> with him.
For all the flap and hype that a lot of Thelemites give it> they are no more
sexually free than anyone else. Getting laid by every> member of a
congregation doesn't make anyone holier than thou. I might> get *thou* a
disease but hey, Do what thou wilt!> If I find Artemis Iota I will post it
here. It is in MWT. Very good> article by AC discussing sexuality.> My take
on the Mass is that we are creating an Eucharist and
I3M
Did your webtv do this to you? Please post again?
THanks
93's I3M
In article <86357s$5m7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
A Witty Saying Proves Nothing ~ Voltaire
aquari...@my-deja.com
I see the Mass as multidimentional.Crowley has proven that every grain of
our existence is interrelated .Gnostic is the perfect description for a
passion play of this dimention .From the Creed we are shown the developement
of this progress . At this time Cloning seem to be the only option to Sex
for us as sentient beings to procreate.Spring of sperm,seed,and germ". I
have several times tried to equate 11 gentle strokes with a martial act but
so far I cannot... Love,Hippy 93 93 93
aquari...@my-deja.com
Riordan McGrath
> Biological as in sex. Well, no I do not believe it is. So many
> Thelemites seem to get hung up on the sexual aspects of it.
Well, it is the central public ritual of a sex-magick
Order...supposedly hiding the hidden secrets of such. I'd say the
sexual aspects, though not the only way to look at it..are rather
significant.
> Granted, there are some fairly intimate moments in the Mass and the
> Priestess is naked after a certain point but still, the sexuality of
> the Mass seems to me more of an added side effect rather than the
whole
> point.
> Symbolism is symbolism, not reality. A lance doesn't mean that the
> Priest is carrying a big dick around.
Well, no.. but you can't really say the lance isn't representative
of the phallus in this case, or the cup of the kteis. This is Crowley
we're talking about.. It's great to explore other aspects of the
Mass..and to examine it at several levels. But, it's primarily sexual
in nature.. if not, bluntly...then symbolically.
> I also think that to bring the Gnostic Mass down to a simply sexual
> level is a mistake. It is far, far more than that. ;)
Sure..it's a mistake to limit it to only one interpretation. But
since it's so strongly sexually-oriented... this often becomes the most
obvious interpretation. But, of course.. OTO is (reputedly) based on
solar-phallic worship...which may have something to do with the sexual
nature of the Mass.
I would suggest anyone look at the Mass from as many angles as
possible.. I'm sure their studies would prove fruitful..as there are so
many different levels involved. But, hell.. I don't need to tell you
that!!!
Blessings and Love,
-R.
tru...@my-deja.com
> 93, interesting topic cropped up and I'd like to solicit opinions.
> Is the Gnostic Mass/Liber XV based on/around physical sex? Is it a
> biological model? What do you think, and why?
> Soror I3M
93! good topic.
I don't think the Gnostic Mass is based purely on physical sex by I do
think that it is some sort of a psuedo biological model.......
It seems to me more a model for a relationship...... awakening within
each other the physical/emotional needs.... etc... the symbols seem to
reflect so much more than just the physical sexual energy- more of the
whole person energy (although there is alot of sexual symbolism, there
is also mental and emotional symbolism too...)
Although I must confess to being one of those people that gets sexually
charged after attending mass - ofcourse it could just be the naked
lady, or that I am more tuned into the sexual symbolism.
93/93
Truth
paul...@my-deja.com
> 93, interesting topic cropped up and I'd like to solicit opinions.
> Is the Gnostic Mass/Liber XV based on/around physical sex? Is it a
> biological model? What do you think, and why?
Solely? No.
Among other things? Sure.
93,
Paul
ghou...@my-deja.com
Well, I did type this "pre-coffee" so I guess I wasn't too clear on a
few points. But yes, there are many levels of interpretation for the
Mass.
> > Biological as in sex. Well, no I do not believe it is. So many
> > Thelemites seem to get hung up on the sexual aspects of it.
>
> Well, it is the central public ritual of a sex-magick
> Order...supposedly hiding the hidden secrets of such. I'd say the
> sexual aspects, though not the only way to look at it..are rather
> significant.
While significant, I still don't think that the Mass is a bio model.
Yes there are many blatent sexual overtones but they play into what is
going on between the Priest and the Priestess.
> Well, no.. but you can't really say the lance isn't
representative
> of the phallus in this case, or the cup of the kteis. This is Crowley
> we're talking about.. It's great to explore other aspects of the
> Mass..and to examine it at several levels. But, it's primarily sexual
> in nature.. if not, bluntly...then symbolically.
In ONE sense they are just that. In another, they are symbolic of the
forces of generation that superceed sexuality.
Sure..it's a mistake to limit it to only one interpretation. But
> since it's so strongly sexually-oriented... this often becomes the
most
> obvious interpretation. But, of course.. OTO is (reputedly) based on
> solar-phallic worship...which may have something to do with the sexual
> nature of the Mass.
> I would suggest anyone look at the Mass from as many angles as
> possible.. I'm sure their studies would prove fruitful..as there are
so
> many different levels involved. But, hell.. I don't need to tell you
> that!!!
Solar-Phallic??? Hmm. Sun dick. Heheheheh! };->-~
I have never cared for that term personally as I don't think it really
defines anything. I think that OTO is much more than just a bunch of
rituals built around the IX*, of course YMMV. "Snake handling love cult"
might be a good one but we aren't a "cult" by popular definition and
we only handle snakes of certain natures!
93 9393
Ghoul418
--
In Nomine Babalon
aquari...@my-deja.com
sha...@my-deja.com wrote:
> 93.
>
> No the mass isn't based around biology. I tried it. I tried it every
> which way I could look at it, and it doesn't work... completely. The
> reason it seems such is because biology is just one of the infinite
> expressions of union. Breathing in and out is another. Having a
> particularly good idea is another.
>
> At the point in the mass where the marriage takes place; we play with a
> bunch of unrelated objects, which are symbolic of ideas. These ideas
> are related to each other in some regular pattern which *mimicks*
> another pattern in ..er... "life".
>
> I'm not saying there aren't absolutely blatant sexual references in the
> mass. There are. The stroking of the Lance. Yes, this has symbolic
> meaning, however, it's expression is sexual in this place.
>
> But consider this too.. the word 'Sperma' simply means "seed" and is
> not only suggestive of animal seed (sperm), plant seed, seed of
> thought; but specifically point of potentia, containing within it, all
> that it will be.
>
> So there.
>
> 93,93/93
> sharash
>
> > Is the Gnostic Mass/Liber XV based on/around physical sex? Is it a
> > biological model? What do you think, and why?
> > Soror I3M
> >
> > --
> > A Witty Saying Proves Nothing ~ Voltaire
> >
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
in the Mass we are given an awareness of our origins(facilitated by sex) in
natural science . 93 93 93 Hippy
sha...@my-deja.com
aquari...@my-deja.com wrote:
> in the Mass we are given an awareness of our origins(facilitated by
sex) in
> natural science . 93 93 93 Hippy
I >hope< each an every one of us had that awareness before attending
mass! (grin)
I disagree though. Saying the mass explains how things are created by
biological sex, is akin saying the physics of heat conduction is all
about baking cookies.
The Lance as well as being representative of an incredibly long penis,
a spinal column, a pseudo wand, it is symbolic of the idea of Will.
Will has something to do with sex, but it has more to do with the ideas
of Going and Creation.
aquari...@my-deja.com
I agree with you!In the same way that the body is a vessle for the spirit
the GM is a vehicle that aligns the body and spirit with Universal truth.
The point I maintain is that w/o our physical bodies there is no connection
with anything.And that this physical body is a direct result of a sexual
act.I am a realist and find it very difficult to draw any conclusion without
empiracle proof.I grant you that to the profane mind to equate spiritually
what may appear to be a hoo doo titty show .is not our goal but that formula
is both sacred and profane it is the stimuli that produces this spiritual
energy that allows us to extwend to the fullness of our being. 939393Hippy
oto_m...@my-deja.com
Long time no speak. It is great to see what is happening in the
discussion. I am curious of one thing though.........what is YMMV?
93 93/93
Fra.. Merlyn
oto_m...@my-deja.com
All I can say is.........BRAVO!
93 93/93
Fra Merlyn
I3M
oto_m...@my-deja.com wrote:
> 93 Ghoul418!
>
> Long time no speak. It is great to see what is happening in the
> discussion. I am curious of one thing though.........what is YMMV?
93, that means Your Mileage May Vary. >:->-~~
93,93/93
Sr I3M..
> 93 93/93
> Fra.. Merlyn
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
A Witty Saying Proves Nothing ~ Voltaire