On Erotic Story Content
VVra...@aol.com
as to my own writing style now. At one time I assumed that several
styles of Erotic writing were wanted and supported on the Archive. Now,
I am not so sure.
I have tried to fill my story with an good plot line as well as many
other fantasy elements to make a real story as opposed to just a loosely
connected group of scenes. I always knew the later style was appreciated
as well, but I though my own type of writing was okay too. Am I wrong on
this point? I think that the erotic story's intimate and sexual scenes
should be preluded by good events. True, every once and a while I enjoy
a good short story with little prelude.
Can anyone else give me their opinion on this issue? I would love to
hear it. Thanks guys. Oh, one other question too. Sorry. Are there any
other girls in the ranks of the Archive viewers and authors? If so I
would really like to hear your input too.
Thanks again,
VVrayven
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
anub...@my-deja.com
Sorry Raven,
Although I do prefer the stories to be strongly (or should I say
solidly) ploted in order for the sex scenes to be justified - or at
least for one to be salivating in antecipation - I do not like the
erotic content to be concerned about love and care relationships.
What I mean is, superheroes stories revolve around power: the power of
the righteous to defeat the villains, the power of good to defeat evil,
the power of the weak ones to defeat the strong unfair ones.
That's what justifies so many scenes in comics, films or novels in
which the heroes must undergo a lot of pain to succeed. That is the
very nature of epic literature from Homer to Shakespeare, from Virgil
to Stephen King - and yes - even from Gilgamesh to Superman.
So, when dealing with erotic stories revolving around superheroes - or
in my favorite case, superheroines - I prefer to see the plot (although
solid and innovative) to reflect this ancestral trend: the heroes must
suffer!
In our case, the heroines must suffer. And, in our common judeo-
christian culture where sexual virtue (Joan-of-Arcquish virtue) seems
to be the most valued one, the suffering of the heroines (that preceeds
triunph) must be sexual suffering, sexual humiliation, rape...
OK, this is just my opinion: plot + violent (nc) sex = wonderful read.
Anubis17
supe...@my-deja.com
the ones that deal with love/romance and caring relationships. To me,
those stories are very dull and flat and I don't interest me in the
least. I prefer stories that are built around sexual scenarios, not
the other way around and if the hardcore sex doesn't start within a
reasonable period of time and is not done in an exciting/graphic way
then I don't read any further (and usually am wary of other stories by
that author).
I also stand with Anubis regarding the fact that the heroine should
suffer unspeakable torment at the hands of her foes but I am less
concerned over whether she gets the upper hand or not at the end of the
story. I also like stories where the *women* are the aggressors (as in
my Xena story) and really put the other character through the sexual
wringer. I have a Wonder Woman story in mind and I am just as apt to
make Diana the aggressor as the victim (maybe I'll write two completely
different WW stories).
Anyway, the bottom line is the stories must be extremely graphic, ultra-
hardcore, and chock-full of sexual kinks if it's going to get my
interest. I have no time or patience for anything less than the best
in hardcore action whether it's superhero, fantasy, sci-fi, paranormal,
or anime. I don't read the soft, verbose, romantic-type stuff no
matter how well it may be written. Dull and boring ordinary standard
sex scenes also turn me off. A writer who doesn't have enough
creativity and dirty-mindedness to craft a really nasty and exciting
sex scene is better off doing something else. Take a look at the story
written by the Scarlet Minx (another female author, and an online
friend of mine) if you want to see what I like in erotic fantasy.
Storyteller's "Sindeea" series and Tyval's "Callisto's Triumph," too
for that matter. All of those are the way I like to see it done!
Just one writer's perspective.
jas...@my-deja.com
the occasional romantic story! Personally, I do like my romance to be of
the FF variety, though.
I do have to say I agree with them on the NC stuff, too, though; I love
reading that type of story as well! Actually, I think Anubis has some of
the best expressed and thought out arguments about the appeal of such
material. Pretty much sums it up, I think.
Essentially, is depends on my mood. It's whatever I feel like reading at
the time. That's one of my favorite things about the archive, really;
the variety!
Jashin
P.S. Anubis, Superjizz, after reading your posts, I'm especially curious
about what you might think of the later sex scene in part 1 of my story.
curious enough to put this P.S. in here, as a matter of fact. it gets
kind of kinky, but it's consensual. at least skip ahead and take a look
at how part 1 ends; I *KNOW* you are going to like part 2... ;)
anub...@my-deja.com
supe...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I also stand with Anubis regarding the fact that the heroine should
> suffer unspeakable torment at the hands of her foes but I am less
> concerned over whether she gets the upper hand or not at the end of
the
> story.
I completelly agree with you on that. It is absollutely indifferent if
the heroines get the upper hand or not. I was just making an analogy
between subjacent motives common to mainstream literature and erotic
fanfiction.
Something that concerns me a bit about heroines not getting the
upperhand is when the violence in such stories goes as further as to
bring death to the character. PJ, Fireman and Joniar wrote a few
stories in which Supergirl, Batgirl, etc.. where killed.
Now, I don't mind the superheroines being killed. I mean, death itself
doesn't bother me. My I like to keep some internal coherence between
all the stories I read. That's why it feels strange when reading a
story in which the character's personality is absollutely changed
without any explanation (eg, a story in which Wonder Woman would be,
per natura, a nymphomaniac).
I don't derive much fun from this stories because I don't feeel like
I'm reading a further adventure of, say Supergirl, that goes beyond the
DC storyline. I like to believe I'm reading something that happened and
DC kept hidden from us.
In any other case, it is not a Supergirl story, but simply a story of
someone posing as Supergirl.
Now, if you kill the character, there should not be any other story
featuring her.
As for plot, I do prefer to read a well plotted story, even if that
means to be reading a 100 pages with no sex on them. Pleasure comes
from excitement, and I can't imagine something more exciting than to
feel the threat growing into a sexual situation (sometimes, the sex
itselve is quite desappointing).
Anubis17
VVra...@aol.com
missed just by a bit though. Please bear with me for just a little
moment. I am a girl. This is a rarity amongst these types of archives.
And I did not say that I didn't enjoy some of the more violent and NC
stories. In fact, I think I can understand the allure of many of those
stories better than some of the guys.
My main question was, is there a demand for the more subtle works in the
archive? I thought a had some NC sections in my work, perhaps others
have a different view. I know there will always be a want of the other
type of story. I know I enjoy reading them from time to time. Comic
story is often not my thing (not to say any of them are bad, I just do
not care for them out of my own mental block), but I think several of
the others are very good.
I write to express myself. Many of the situation and scenes come from
real life inspired events or things that make me feel sexually aroused.
That is my definition of erotic. I used to be a large fan of the Erotic
Mind Control Stories Archive before they shut it down. In short, I like
both the hard and fats and the subtle and slow stories, also depending
on my mood.
My real question was, do other people feel the same? Or is it better if
I try and find another place to post my stories? Or perhaps I should
post a different story for a time? Any comments? Thank you for your time
guys, I appreciate it.
VVrayven
anub...@my-deja.com
VVra...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> I write to express myself. Many of the situation and scenes come from
> real life inspired events or things that make me feel sexually
aroused.
> That is my definition of erotic. >
Wrayven:
Everybody who writes, does so to express himself. Sometimes, the act of
writing is just the way one have to expreess their frustrations. Others
to express their fears, their desires, their emotions or their
political opinions.
Sometimes, all your emotions are expressed in such a way that you will
get to the core of someone else. Sometimes, something you write as a
way of fell a little reliefed over something that is bothering you, is
precisely what someone else was feeling but could not express as well
as you could.
At that momento you realize that you are a real writer, a good one.
That is the main thing about writing. What you write concerns other
people. Through your writing, you're helping someone else to express
themselves, or to be able to escape their daily problems.
When the things you write just for fun or for pleasure can do that to
other readers, then you are fortunate enough to be able to become a
professional writer.
The point is, when we read or write fanfiction about superheroes, or
SF, or Horror, or something else, you're searching for those stories
that you either would like to read (because 'Yeah, I have never thought
of that!', or 'Sure, this could have happened' or even 'Damn, why
didn't I think of this before?')or write.
If you read my post 'Fanfiction History' you already know why I read
(and write) this stuff: it's a way of fullfil some fantasies, to be
able to create a reality that I think is more logical, even if not more
epic(and I don't want to go on to debate if violent art creates violent
behaviour).
But all this just to say: it doesn't matter if you're a girl. Anne Rice
is a woman and writes excellent horror (permeated of erotica) and
excellent pornography (the Sleeping Beauty series); and it doesn't
matter if you derive your stories from reality, dreams or fantasy. If
you can write a good story there will be someone to read it.
I think it just as to belong to one of the categories in the Archive.
So, write on.
Anubis17
Pyros
when I post or write anything.
All of you have a place in the archive from the wonderfully
romantic love story to the crude sexual core stories.
We have over 2000 people visiting the archive every day did
you hear that every day some love long epic stories others
enjoy all the other various types.
I am not going to censor or favour any type of story and I
dearly hope we don't loose any type of story.
You are all creators and the greyarchive is your world.
The only stories I won't put up are ones that fall into the
following category
RL erotic fiction (this is obvious)
Extensive incest/underage(unless it fits in with the story section
ect)
badly written cr&p
I like 99% of the stories on the archive but like all
I have favourites, but I know enough to know everyone is
different.
Jason
walte...@aol.com
superheroes stuff but I have to think there is more to this genre than
just asking "how can we debase Wonderwoman this week?" Although I have
read and enjoyed some of their stories I must respectfully disagree with
Anubis and Superjizz's stated outlook on erotic fiction. Erotic fiction
should be arousing. I see nothing arousing about having bad guys or
girls force Wonderwoman and her sister to eat shit and drink piss.
The best stories on the Archive, in my opinion, are stories that weave
sexual encounters into a larger plot. I want readers to care about what
my characters are doing and I want to be interested in what others'
characters are doing. I loved the Mara Jade series, for example, just
for that reason. I wanted to know what would happen next to the
character and got off on some great sex scenes along the way. NC sex
certainly has its place but it should flow with the story and result
from an event within the story.
I also like stories that are plotted, well-written and believable.
Romance and caring relationships, far from being something to be
scorned, can sexually charge a story to a much greater degree than 20
pages of Supergirl having her nipples clamped, bitten and otherwise
mauled.
The great thing about the Grey Archive is that there is room for all
tastes and styles of writing and types of writers. Let's hope it stays
that way.
WalterS
trs...@hotmail.com
I believe Wrayven was looking for some feedback on her story and
writing style in this thread. If you are going to comment, you should
at least do her the courtesy of reading her work. If orc snuff rape,
tentacle demon impregnation rape, slime monster brain washing rape,
drug induced lesbian incest and such are too 'romantic' for some of
you, then the whole GA is probably too sissy for you. Guys, women are
not limited to writing mushy romance, believe me. Stereotyping others
is a bad habit.
As for what you like to write and read, it's a great topic for this
forum, but really should have its own thread.
Wrayven, I would like to publicly let you know I enjoyed your story
and hope you'll continue writing for the archive. In a well written
plot driven story, erotic sequences should occur within the larger flow
of events rather than being forced or tagged on as an afterthought.
Once a character's persona has been developed, their actions should be
consistent with that persona. Inexplicable sudden nympho/satyr spasms
tend to be jarring unless you can work them into the larger framework.
This is general advice, not any specific criticism.
For me, a story works if it is well written, (Believable within its
internal framework.) interesting, (Contains ideas that make you sit up
and think.) fun, (Just plain enjoyable for whatever reason.) or
exciting. (Usually arousing in the case of erotic fiction.) Different
people will have different emphasis on the importance of each area, but
in general, the more of these you can cover, the more people will like
your work. As long as you can cover at least one of the bases, your
work will be successful.
I hope everyone finds my comments helpful.
Keep on writing, folks.
The Stellar Rodent
anub...@my-deja.com
walte...@aol.com wrote:
> Well, here's my two cents on the subject. I haven't written any
> superheroes stuff but I have to think there is more to this genre than
> just asking "how can we debase Wonderwoman this week?" Although I have
> read and enjoyed some of their stories I must respectfully disagree
with
> Anubis and Superjizz's stated outlook on erotic fiction. Erotic
fiction
> should be arousing. I see nothing arousing about having bad guys or
> girls force Wonderwoman and her sister to eat shit and drink piss.
>
>
be arousing. As Alexandrian wrote in his History of Erotic Literature,
this is the litetrary genre that you can objectively qualify, since it
is the only one in which you have a physical response to what tou are
reading (I believe Horror to be another good example). Indeed, if you
do not feel aroused by an erotic story you have good reason to believe
that it is not a good story or a well writen one.
I do find it very dificult to get aroused by someone defecating or
urinating over a woman (even if she is Wonder Woman). But I must agree
that in some circunstances, that could be very exciting. I think it
will have to come out of the story itself. For instance, I never had
used any pissing or shitting in my stories, but one day I was writing
an erotic scene featuring my favorite female character, where she was
being attacked by three satyrs (from greek mythologie) and that I
believed that being half man half goat should behave like their
zoologic counterparts. Now, it is a known fact that animals do defecate
when excited! So, before I could stop myself, they were (unconsciously)
defecating all over the girl's body.
I never finished that story. In fact I stoped writing it in that
precise scene.
But a year later I did another story with the same character: this time
she was captured by a mean slaver/assasin from another reality that
believed that to mark her body with his own excretions would be the
supreme claim of ownership over her.
I believe that outside of context these may seem a little crude. Ity
all depends of context, characterization and plot.
But above all else, it depends on the reader!
Now, this would lead us to a bigger matter: that of taste and I don't
want to go that way. Why do some people like to use insults when making
love, and why are others that don't?
The best stories on the Archive, in my opinion, are stories that weave
> sexual encounters into a larger plot. I want readers to care about
what
> my characters are doing and I want to be interested in what others'
> characters are doing. I loved the Mara Jade series, for example, just
> for that reason. I wanted to know what would happen next to the
> character and got off on some great sex scenes along the way. NC sex
> certainly has its place but it should flow with the story and result
> from an event within the story.
>
>
Another point in which you couldn't be more right!
I also like stories that are plotted, well-written and believable.
> Romance and caring relationships, far from being something to be
> scorned, can sexually charge a story to a much greater degree than 20
> pages of Supergirl having her nipples clamped, bitten and otherwise
> mauled.
>
Now, here I think we might diverge a little. When we're speaking of
superhero fanfiction (and I'm only speaking of this precise kind of
erotic fiction)I think that the romance between characters is of no
concern for us readers. I mean, we can think of two basic kinds of
situation:
1) The character already has a mate, like Spiderman and Mary jane
Watson. What would be the point in describing the way they make love?
We all know they have sex! The only way for this to become interesting,
would be for the entire plot to revolve around their relationship and
that is soap opera.
In 1960, in New Maps of Hell, Kingsley Amis said that SF writers should
keep the romantic subplot out of their stories unless if it was
essential to the main plot (as it later would be in Philip Jose
farmer's THE LOVERS). I believe that something very similar happens to
superhero fiction.
What defines superhero comics is their fight against powerful enemies.
Personal relantionships should only occur if essencial (like with Peter
Parker and Gwen Stacy: but then the graphic description of their sexual
encounters would only destroy the pulp poetry of her death).
2)The character has no mate in the official storyline and the fanfic
author tries to get him/her one: what would distinguish the
relationship of Wolverine with any girl, from the relationship of any
other man with any other woman?
Nothing.
That's why I believe that we can never forget what are the
particularities of superhero fiction: the relations of power, the
superhuman habilities, the greater moral responsabilities and - of
course - exiting adventure.
One step further could lead us to discuss in what way superheroines
differ from superheroes: I do not believe myself a mysoginist, but I
think that female characters should only have a place where they are
absolutely needed. I know this may seem a little strange and I feel
that I may not express myself correctly... but.... what are the
differences between Superman and Supergirl? Of course, they are just a
pair of breasts and a vagina.
Why should there be a Supergirl if not for her sexappeal towards teen
male comic readers (the main target of the main editors?)
This is why I believe that NC sexual relations are a lot better as a
litterary motor than caring relationships. We all have caring
relationships on our daily lives: in fantasy we want to satisfy our
fantasies.
And what would be of our culture without NC relationships? I do like
very much the insight of Susan Griffin when she says (in Pornography
and Silence (1992)) that the first pornographic act of our history was
the crucifiction of Christ!
Our moral was born out of violence.
Plus, and although I believe this to be entirely impossible, I always
thought that it would be very interesting to read a comic from Marvel
or DC analysing the psychologicaly devastating efects that a rape would
have over a superbeing like Supergirl or She-Hulk. (I think rape is
very much implicit in the story where the Joker attack Barbara Gordon
and lets her in a wheelchair). The sexual phantasm is everpresent in
superheroes comics.
The great thing about the Grey Archive is that there is room for all
> tastes and styles of writing and types of writers. Let's hope it stays
> that way.
HERE ! HERE! I don't believe that me or Superzizz ever said something
to the contrary!
Anubis17
supe...@my-deja.com
> I believe Wrayven was looking for some feedback on her story and
> writing style in this thread. If you are going to comment, you should
> at least do her the courtesy of reading her work.
I will if it excites me. Only the very last part of Xregor was
arousing, and I had to slog through a whole lot of standard fiction
before I got to it. I prefer the action to start much sooner than the
very tail end of the story. By then it will always be too little too
late.
> If orc snuff rape,
> tentacle demon impregnation rape, slime monster brain washing rape,
> drug induced lesbian incest and such are too 'romantic' for some of
> you, then the whole GA is probably too sissy for you.
Huh!? No it's not! Where did you get that? You need to clarify your
definition of "romantic" here. I never accused Wrayven's stuff of
being overly romantic (but I do think there's a lot of text that could
have gone into more exciting directions).
> Guys, women are
> not limited to writing mushy romance, believe me. Stereotyping others
> is a bad habit.
Did you read any of my other posts here? If you did you would soon
learn that I'm not stereotyping anyone, especially not female writers.
One of my favorites is Scarlet Minx! She's not only a damn hot writer
but also an on-line friend of mine. I am in awe of her imagination and
writing ability! Read her story, "The Final Ring" and find out what
erotic fantasy should be like! She wasted no time in getting right to
the best parts (doesn't make you wade through ten or twelve pages
before something exciting happens, does she?) and it is what I wish
other fantasy writers would do. She also keeps the fire going all
throughout the story and there are NO SLOW PARTS. That's what I like
to read and that's what I'm grateful for this site for providing.
> As for what you like to write and read, it's a great topic for this
> forum, but really should have its own thread.
I agree. I shall say no more on this thread.
VVra...@aol.com
I think I have heard all I needed to. My only question was, "are there
people who enjoy both styles of writing, reading the stories at the
Archive." I have seen this is the case. I was also looking for feeback
on my writing, this I have also gotten to a good degree. I thank you all
for posting.
I haven't viewed anyone as attacking my work, and I intend to stay on
the archive as an author. I now know that some people enjoy reading
Xeregor, and that is really my prime motivation for writing it.
If you have any more comments for my work, positive or otherwise I would
really love to hear from you. I think this string has been exhausted
though, so my e-mail would be a better medium of communication.
VVra...@aol.com. Thanks again guys.
Pyros
And thankfully I see alot that
on the archive.
Nothing will change that :)
Jason
anub...@my-deja.com
anub...@my-deja.com
greya...@cwcom.net wrote:
> Variation is the spice of life,
> And thankfully I see alot that
> on the archive.
> Nothing will change that :)
>
> Jason
>
I second that!
And thank you for keeping up the Archive!
udo_...@my-deja.com
never gave a thought to pissing in porn until I read SuperJizz's
fabulous Hulk story. His Xena story is pretty cool too. Altho his
stuff is a bit too rough for me generally. But God bless him. He's
just writing his mind, just as I am.
The main thing I wanted to say was, I hope some of you found the Ilsa
story as amusing as I did. The shit-eating may be gross, but it's also
very funny, I think. I don't know if I think it's sexy, but I
certainly find it very interesting. Isn't shit-eating a fetish? I'm
sure I heard something about it.
Anyway, I thought it was really sexy when Wonder Girl got fat. Anyone
else turned on by distended stomachs?
Svengali
anub...@my-deja.com
udo_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Well, folks, I'm sorry if my shit-eating story offended some of you.
I
> never gave a thought to pissing in porn until I read SuperJizz's
> fabulous Hulk story. His Xena story is pretty cool too. Altho his
> stuff is a bit too rough for me generally. But God bless him. He's
> just writing his mind, just as I am.
>
be offended by stupidity, and I sure found none of that in these
discussion. I do believe that art is (or should be) the most perfect
way for anyone to express their tastes and feelings (and fantasies). I
can't stand censorship and I do believe that the most scatological art
is, the best it is too (because it will be a matter of discussion and
then a matter of advancement in culture).
I think it is amazing that Linda Williams, a feminist scholar found so
much to say about porn movies that she wrote a book about them.
By the way, I saw a pair of Ilsa movies a couple of years ago (I
believe they were called Ilsa - She Wolfe of the SS and Ilsa - The
Lioness of Siberia).
> The main thing I wanted to say was, I hope some of you found the Ilsa
> story as amusing as I did. The shit-eating may be gross, but it's
also
> very funny, I think. I don't know if I think it's sexy, but I
> certainly find it very interesting. Isn't shit-eating a fetish? I'm
> sure I heard something about it.
>
> Anyway, I thought it was really sexy when Wonder Girl got fat. Anyone
> else turned on by distended stomachs?
>
I must confess that I do not feel the least excited by body fat,
although Reubens surelly created a fatty archetype for beautty a couple
of centuries ago. In fact fat has a great value as a mean of survival
and through History it was taken as a symbol for wealth and power.
Today that is most visible in hunter-gatherer tribes from Africa and
South America. The bushman of the Kalahari are believed to be the
modern representatives of paleolithic venuses: their women 'suffer'
from steotopagy (I may be spelling it wrong), that is, they have big
buttocks.
Among the K'ung tribesmen fatty girls are surelly a wonder!
Did you also read THE RAPE OF THE BLACK CAT back at the Archive? It
features a scene in which the Scarlet Witch is pissed on by a mob. I
thought it was quite exciting despite the bodily fluids desplayed.
Anubis17
walte...@aol.com
udo_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Well, folks, I'm sorry if my shit-eating story offended some of you. I
> never gave a thought to pissing in porn until I read SuperJizz's
> fabulous Hulk story. His Xena story is pretty cool too. Altho his
> stuff is a bit too rough for me generally. But God bless him. He's
> just writing his mind, just as I am.
>
I was not at all offended by your Ilsa story. I was merely pointing out that
I did not find it erotically arousing. Big difference.
WalterS
jas...@my-deja.com
> I was not at all offended by your Ilsa story. I was merely pointing
out that
> I did not find it erotically arousing. Big difference.
I agree with this.
Your story was...interesting, but not my thing. Scat (the name of the
fetish I think?) has never appealed to me (it can also be called
'coprophilia', if I spelled that right, which is 'sexually aroused by
feces'), same with watersports. Despite this I still like Tyval's
stories quite a bit! the rest of the material, ie lesbian BDSM is always
good! :) I just find I skip some. These are just two things you won't
find in my stories because I'm not turned on by them, but they don't
necessarily ruin a story by their inclusion.
And sorry, but 'big' girls don't do anything for me either. :(
Just comes back down to personal taste!
ty...@my-deja.com
<827m65$i2d$1...@nnrp1.deja
.com>,
jas...@my-deja.com
wrote:
stories. You will motice
that the watersports in
my stories only take
place after a body
alteration, either by
magic, or the spores in
X-Women. despite the
amount of bdsm in some
of my stories, there are
2 clear themes, 1. all
the sex in my stories,
despite whatever kink is
consenual. 2. truly bad
guys die in my stories.
Cats Inc. is only a
slight exception. I make
it clear tht the felines
are not out to hurt
anyone deliberatly. all
they want is lesbian sex
and money in that order.
In fact, if they get the
sex, the Cats don't care
about the loot. In the
comics, the villains
don't win. I follow that
guideline, but it don't
mean that they can't
have a temporary
advantage. My stories
also have plots for the
most part. Even
Callisto's Triumph?,
arguably my most
hardcore story to date,
has a premise, that
Aphrodite wants to rule
Olympus herself, but
attempts to do it by
guile. There are in fact
2 more stories at least
in that saga, An Age of
Wonder which is
Xena/Wonder Woman, and
Lesbian Olympics, in
which a small army of
female warriors first
forms. There may even be
more stories in this
saga. After X-Women
though is Xena/Red
Sonja, coming in a
couple of weeks. send me
feedback people, I am
even trying to fill
requests,from the Grey
idea section as
evidenced by the
apperance of Double
Impact, Shi and Tomoe,
and the Barbi Twins in
Cats Inc. Coming soon as
well is girls of WCW vs.
girls of WWF, for the
pleasure of the
Enchantress!
udo_...@my-deja.com
Ilsa, Tigress (not "Lioness") of Siberia. As it turns out, the
fattening up of Wonder Girl was inspired by a similar scene in Ilsa,
Harem Keeper of the Oil Sheiks, in which a female prisoner (not a
superheroine) is forcefed to the point of obesity.
Anyway, I don't so much find large girls sexy, but the act of enlarging
itself. However, is there not a certain pleasure in hugging or patting
one's own distended belly after a pleasing meal? I'm rather a skinny
fellow, so my ideas of obesity are of course merely imagined or
cursorily witnessed. This goes with my debauchery idea. A sleazy
woman is not sexy, but I find the process of turning a pure girl into a
debauched one sexy. The characters in The White Bridge discuss the
very thing at the end of the story.
As for offense, it was my understanding that a few visitors to the Grey
Archive complained about my story. I was more addressing them than
anyone who has so far taken part in this discussion.
Anyway, I certainly am not interested in reading stories where good
triumphs and evil is punished. You get enough of that elsewhere. Porn
is a release. Therefore it is natural that it tends to be a bit dark
and aggression-filled for some of us. I like to see the natural order
overturned, and society's mores debauched. The person who is
metaphorically shat on in his life may enjoy reading a story in which
he can sort of vicariously shit on such a pristine embodiment of
perfection and heroism as Wonder Woman. The average joe or josie ain't
beautiful and heroic, and so, it's nice sometimes to see WW abused,
because it's kind of like burning the flag.
anub...@my-deja.com
udo_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Anubis: How splendid that you have seen Ilsa, She-Wolf of the S.S. and
> Ilsa, Tigress (not "Lioness") of Siberia. As it turns out, the
> fattening up of Wonder Girl was inspired by a similar scene in Ilsa,
> Harem Keeper of the Oil Sheiks, in which a female prisoner (not a
> superheroine) is forcefed to the point of obesity.
>
>
it (both of them, actually) in 1991 but due to motives that now I can't
understand I didn't add them to my video collection. As you mentioned
it, I was aware of at least another title in the series, but I didn't
remember which it was.
>Anyway, I don't so much find large girls sexy, but the act of enlarging
> itself. However, is there not a certain pleasure in hugging or
patting
> one's own distended belly after a pleasing meal? I'm rather a skinny
> fellow, so my ideas of obesity are of course merely imagined or
> cursorily witnessed. This goes with my debauchery idea. A sleazy
> woman is not sexy, but I find the process of turning a pure girl into
a
> debauched one sexy. The characters in The White Bridge discuss the
> very thing at the end of the story.
>
Well, you make some very strong points with that. You are not the only
one thinking like that. Did you ever read Stephen King's THINNER
(1985)? It was written under the name of Richard Bachmann and deals
with a gipsy curse that sends a fat upper-class lawyer down the road of
ultrafast weightloss. Since King had some money troubles before being a
top star writer, I believe the book is some kind of confession. It is
mentioned by King himself that he sincerelly believes tha sentence that
appears in THE TALISMAN (1984) that he wrote with Peter Straub,
that 'you can never get too rich, or too thin'.
Anyhow, I do believe that is a lot more to say about the subject.
And I also agree with the analogy you draw between both kinds of
debauchery; it is widely known that decadent Rome (although decadent is
not an historical classification)based their aristhocratic orgies in
both food and sex. In fact, the roman upper eschellon used a vomitorium
to keep constantly feeding themselves: they would eat all they could
and then they would force the vomit in a away to allow them to eat
again.
And in Fellini's SATYRICON to eat the body of a dead man is the only
wat the heirs (legataria) had to receive his wealth. It is a most
significant scene as you should remember if you saw the film.
As to sexual debauchery, I do prefer to just humiliate the heroines
through sexual abuse without allowing them the release of becoming
debauched themselves. In part this is due to the fact that I do not
accept the argument that to imitate the bad deeds of others in
different moral circumstances makes us their equals.
It is an ever recurring argument in litterature, film and comics. As
you certainly recall, in recent times (politically correct times), when
the 'heroe' is about tho exert revenge over the villain, there comes
some sentencing character/voice-off/inner-thought that reminds the hero
that to kill the villain is to become a villain.
Where the fuck is Dirty Harry? Where the fuck is Travis Bickle?
In the same line of thought, I think that allowing the heroine to
become a complying victim or a new willing villain (in your case, a sex-
hungry lover)is to somehow allow them some kind of release.
Although I agree with you that it has a larger and more powerfull
meaning (both epic and symbolic) to make the hero/heroine abandon their
prior believes (moral believes) it is (for me) a lot more exciting to
keep them in a constant moral torture for not being able to prevent
the 'evil' being forced on themselves.
Did you read Richard Laymon's THE CELLAR (1980) or SAVAGE (1994)? The
end of both books would please you very much, I believe, because it
turns the main characters - that through the lenght of the book we were
lead to identify with as being the heroes - into a complying victim
(The Cellar) and an active Villain (Savage).
The plot-turn is even more drastic because, as all of Laymon's
characters they are totaly down-to-earth; they're you, and they're me!
They have our thoughts and feelings and needs and desires.
> As for offense, it was my understanding that a few visitors to the
Grey
> Archive complained about my story. I was more addressing them than
> anyone who has so far taken part in this discussion.
>
> Anyway, I certainly am not interested in reading stories where good
> triumphs and evil is punished. You get enough of that elsewhere.
Porn
> is a release. Therefore it is natural that it tends to be a bit dark
> and aggression-filled for some of us. I like to see the natural order
> overturned, and society's mores debauched. The person who is
> metaphorically shat on in his life may enjoy reading a story in which
> he can sort of vicariously shit on such a pristine embodiment of
> perfection and heroism as Wonder Woman. The average joe or josie
ain't
> beautiful and heroic, and so, it's nice sometimes to see WW abused,
> because it's kind of like burning the flag.
Once again I totally agree with you!
Moreover, when you refer to pornography as a form of liberation, you
are absolutely right. Not only becouse sex is the main drive (again
togeteher with food) of all mammal species, but because Man (Homo
sapiens) his the second most sexual animal in the world (the first
place goes to chinpanzees (Pan troglodytes and P. paniscus) - but then
again they are just our genetically closest cousins).
And it is very significant too, not only that all of Western mores
(judeo-christian mores) is based on sex, but that all the major taboos
are of a sexual nature.
That brings out the most troubling paradox of female heroines in
american comics: although they are without exception gorgeous, sexy
women, with wonderful round breasts and impossibly long legs (which
they generously expose without shame)they all seem to be asexual
characters.
It all goes as if in the comics world there was no sex!
And if there is no sex, there cannot be (sexual) shame. The world of
comics is the next best thing to the biblical eden prior to Eve eating
the forbidden fruit.
In fact, I can only recall one situation in which a superheroine spoke
in terms of shame, and it was Jean Grey, when entering a nightclub with
Scott in search of someone, mentioning that she could telepaticaly
perceive some pornographic thoughts about her.
More recently, when Kitty Pride developed their dematerializing
capacity, I seem to remember a scene in which a false Nightcrawler
tries to touch her breasts. (I'm sorry if a can't identify the stories'
titles but I have both of them in portuguese translations - but I can
look it up in my collection and at least try to identify the authors).
Otherwise, they all behave as if there was no conscient sex in
superhero comics. And, to my point of view, it is what makes it all
more exciting to read and write about sexual abuse of superheroines.
It is interesting to try to understand why. Why do you love to see the
virginal, pure, sex-unconscious heroines being violently confronted to
sexual situations?
I don't know, although I try to rationalize it.Is it something
primeval, a ancestral feeling from our true nature? Is it a political
statement as yopu put it? Or is it a religious one?
I think it is a little of the three. It is a sociological question that
I would like to see more debated in this forum.
Why do one get a lot more exciting to see Supergirl's breasts exposed
through her torn shirt, than from seing Richard Gere kissing Julia
Roberts? (OK, for one thing she's ugly like a horse!)
But, at least why do we prefer to see Wonder Woman raped, than to see a
two-cents prostitute being raped?
It is somekind of identification to the characters. I think that when
we rape Wonder Woman or Supergirl, we are raping something of
ourselves, something we identify with.
I thin it is why I don't like to read erotic fanfiction featuring the
sexual acts and deeds of male superheroes: maybe because we can never
be like them!
Anyhow, I'm just digressing. But I intend to elaborate a little more
over this.
Thank you Udo for making this debate a very interesting one. I do like
to see an author come to the arena and try to explain why he wrote what
he wrote (mainly when he does it whith insight, dignity and calm).
Thank's!
Anubis17
Jashin
> And in Fellini's SATYRICON to eat the body of a dead man is the only
> wat the heirs (legataria) had to receive his wealth. It is a most
> significant scene as you should remember if you saw the film.
>
I haven't seen this one. Fellini is a bit hard to get in my town. I have
seen Cinema Paradiso and Eight and 1/2 though! I love Fellini! I also
reaslly liked the graphic novel he wrote and Milo Manara illustrated,
Trip to Tullum (I love Manara)!
> As to sexual debauchery, I do prefer to just humiliate the heroines
> through sexual abuse without allowing them the release of becoming
> debauched themselves. In part this is due to the fact that I do not
> accept the argument that to imitate the bad deeds of others in
> different moral circumstances makes us their equals.
I'm not entirely sure you're clear here...let me try this as an example:
Part of it for me is that somewhere deep down, even if they can't admit
to themselves, the heroine enjoys it. It's the extra added humiliation
of it that makes me want to think so, that at least physically they
CAN'T HELP but enjoy it...that added humiliation in other words acts
cyclically, feeding off itself if you will, to torture the heroine more.
(see pt2 of my story for an example...shameless plug!). Of course, they
don't enjoy it conciously...but...can anyone follow this? I've damn near
lost myself...
Related to this is that I really can't stand 'realistic' rape stories,
because I want fantasy rape! Real rape is BAD! Real rape is about power,
just power, pure and simple, and someone always gets hurt. FANTASY rape
on the other hand, is about the sexiness and eroticism of power and loss
of control, when no one actually loses control, except maybe the
*fictional* characters.
It's very important that these characters are not real. It's part of how
sane people, who can tell reality from fantasy, can enjoy this stuff. In
these more realistic stories I can't convince myself the character could
at all get over it...it's just to much for 'suspension of disbelief'.
Similarly, I don't enjoy stories where lesbians are raped by men; just
seems too hateful, and I can't get myself to pretend that the victim can
be secretly enjoying it when she doesn't even like men one bit! These
are things I do not enjoy.
...
> that to kill the villain is to become a villain.
>
> Where the fuck is Dirty Harry? Where the fuck is Travis Bickle?
>
...
> Although I agree with you that it has a larger and more powerfull
> meaning (both epic and symbolic) to make the hero/heroine abandon
their
> prior believes (moral believes) it is (for me) a lot more exciting to
> keep them in a constant moral torture for not being able to prevent
> the 'evil' being forced on themselves.
I'll be interested to see what you think about the end of part 2 of
'wraith', once it's finished and I've posted it. Like Dirty Harry, I've
set Alystin up as an anti-hero. The end is a very interesting view into
her, I think...
> Did you read Richard Laymon's THE CELLAR (1980) or SAVAGE (1994)? The
> end of both books would please you very much, I believe, because it
> turns the main characters - that through the lenght of the book we
were
> lead to identify with as being the heroes - into a complying victim
> (The Cellar) and an active Villain (Savage).
I'm going to have to look!
Yep, I go along with both of you. And again, you'll have to LMK what you
think of the grey lines I write in. I'm very much trying to avoid 'good
vs. evil'.
> That brings out the most troubling paradox of female heroines in
> american comics: although they are without exception gorgeous, sexy
> women, with wonderful round breasts and impossibly long legs (which
> they generously expose without shame)they all seem to be asexual
> characters.
>
.... (I didn't want to repeat the whole text, but I'm refrencing it...)
There's been some goings on in comics recently: Warren Ellis' 'The
Authority' (which is seriously kick ass BTW) has dealt with an alien
race from an alternate earth wanting to take ours and turn the whole
planet into a rape camp. Two members of the team are a gay male couple,
too! Definately some goings on...
Alan Moore has a lesbian character in 'Top Ten', plus another good one,
but it take a long explanation...(plus prostitutes being murdered, if
that qualifies) and there's some shenanigens in 'Tom Strong', too.
There's also some lesbian subtext in a recurring joke (maybe not a
joke?) in 'Promethea'(again, both great books).
Peter David's Supergirl has been dealing with relationships, and
lesbianism.
Darkness and Witchblade have both been interesting, too. Demons who feed
off sexual energy, and the Darkness ahs got a lot going on with the main
character not able to have sex.
This is just the superhero stuff, too. And only what I can think of off
hand. Marvel, of course, hasn't done too much, but Scarlet Witch and
Wonderman did get hot and heavy recently...
Yeah, I read a lot of comics! :)
> Otherwise, they all behave as if there was no conscient sex in
> superhero comics. And, to my point of view, it is what makes it all
> more exciting to read and write about sexual abuse of superheroines.
>
See above. I don't think it diminishes much at all! Even makes it more
stimulating maybe, since comics only go so far...
> It is interesting to try to understand why. Why do you love to see the
> virginal, pure, sex-unconscious heroines being violently confronted to
> sexual situations?
>
> I don't know, although I try to rationalize it.Is it something
> primeval, a ancestral feeling from our true nature? Is it a political
> statement as yopu put it? Or is it a religious one?
>
> I think it is a little of the three. It is a sociological question
that
> I would like to see more debated in this forum.
Me too. It's interesting. See above for my previous comments.
> Why do one get a lot more exciting to see Supergirl's breasts exposed
> through her torn shirt, than from seing Richard Gere kissing Julia
> Roberts? (OK, for one thing she's ugly like a horse!)
>
> But, at least why do we prefer to see Wonder Woman raped, than to see
a
> two-cents prostitute being raped?
>
Fantasy. Totally impossible women. They aren't real, so it's 'safer'. Of
course, I do think the symbolism of iconic characters is huge factor.
> It is somekind of identification to the characters. I think that when
> we rape Wonder Woman or Supergirl, we are raping something of
> ourselves, something we identify with.
Well, to use my own story as an example again, if 'wraith' were a D&D
game, Alystin *would* be my character. Again, part of the fantasy.
> I thin it is why I don't like to read erotic fanfiction featuring the
> sexual acts and deeds of male superheroes: maybe because we can never
> be like them!
And maybe we just don't 'like' men? For me that's it. I have some gay
friends who are into comics, they go on about Nightwing the way we do
about Batgirl, so...
> Thank you Udo for making this debate a very interesting one. I do like
> to see an author come to the arena and try to explain why he wrote
what
> he wrote (mainly when he does it whith insight, dignity and calm).
> Thank's!
I second that! And if people are complaing about your story, well, fuck
'em! They suck! They should have the brains to just go 'whoa, I ain't
going to read that a second time!' (like me), and leave it for the
people who do enjoy it! I'm not into it, but I'm not going to condemn
another 'cause they are.
BTW, much of these comments were going to be a reply to Anubis other
thread, Fanfic history, but Deja logged me out before I was done, and I
lost it all!
We can move the discussion there, or keep it here. I for one am
interested and will follow it.
Jashin
-> hey, damn thing did it to me again, but I was ready! :) I clipped it
out, so I could come back and re-paste my message! Now, I'm going to go
fix my prefs... oh, one last thing, what are you all thinking of the
first bit of part 2 of 'Wraith'? I really want some feedback! Please?
udo_...@my-deja.com
>Did you ever read Stephen King's THINNER (1985)? >>
No, I've never been much of a King fan, but I'm open to any books you'd
like to recommend.
>I also agree with the analogy you draw between both kinds of
> debauchery; it is widely known that decadent Rome (although decadent
is
> not an historical classification)based their aristhocratic orgies in
> both food and sex. In fact, the roman upper eschellon used a
vomitorium
> to keep constantly feeding themselves: they would eat all they could
> and then they would force the vomit in a away to allow them to eat
> again. >>
Yes, I am aware of this. The obvious similarity sex and eating share
is that they are both oral. Also, they both give pleasure.
> And in Fellini's SATYRICON to eat the body of a dead man is the only
> wat the heirs (legataria) had to receive his wealth. It is a most
> significant scene as you should remember if you saw the film. >>
I'll have to seek that film out. Another film of interest is the
infamous New York Ripper. There's a wonderful scene where a man
fondles a woman's vagina with his foot. She tells him to stop, but you
can tell she likes it. And he keeps telling her to admit that.
Eventually she does, and it's a very erotic moment when she gives in.
> As to sexual debauchery, I do prefer to just humiliate the heroines
> through sexual abuse without allowing them the release of becoming
> debauched themselves. >>
As Spock would say, "Fascinating." I never thought of it that way.
Perhaps in a way, it's a release. But I also see it as the heroine's
personality being alterred. The pristine and heroic creature she was
is lost. It is not Wonder Woman who experiences release, but debauched
Wonder Woman, who is no longer any good for crime fighting.
>In part this is due to the fact that I do not
> accept the argument that to imitate the bad deeds of others in
> different moral circumstances makes us their equals. >>
Don't quite follow you. I don't think I ever saw it in these terms.
> It is an ever recurring argument in litterature, film and comics. As
> you certainly recall, in recent times (politically correct times),
when the 'heroe' is about tho exert revenge over the villain, there
comes some sentencing character/voice-off/inner-thought that reminds
the hero that to kill the villain is to become a villain. >>
Bravo. Indeed, many's the story (or movie) in which by story's end,
the hero has spilled way more blood than fifty bad guys could have.
Action movies are little more than someone dreaming up a "heroic"
excuse to slaughter lots of people. All that is required is to
consider them bad guys. If they're bad, it's okay to cut them to
pieces.
> I think that allowing the heroine to become a complying victim or a
new willing villain (in your case, a sex-hungry lover)is to somehow
allow them some kind of release. >>
It seems that you prefer a somewhat more--shall we say--*vigorous*
story than I. I'm not about seeing them suffer. I'm Debauchery Man.
> Although I agree with you that it has a larger and more powerful
> meaning (both epic and symbolic) to make the hero/heroine abandon
their prior believes (moral believes) it is (for me) a lot more
exciting to keep them in a constant moral torture for not being able to
prevent the 'evil' being forced on themselves. >>
Yes, I suppose, my way is more organic and natural. Sex is all about
release. The abandonment of mores and cessation of torture when the
superheroine becomes superslut could be said to represent the orgasm.
Perhaps you don't want the orgasm to ever arrive, but for the sex to be
eternal.
It's all about "meaning." I think the purpose of erotic stories is to
situate the sex so that it isn't just sex for sex's sake. The sex and
the giving in are given great power and meaning, if all the events in
the story lead up to it. The heroine's behavior during the sex means
everything. If she remains resistant throughout, for me, it's a static
situation. Nothing has changed. But stories are about change. The
main character should not be the same person he/she was at the
beginning.
> Did you read Richard Laymon's THE CELLAR (1980) or SAVAGE (1994)? The
> end of both books would please you very much, I believe, because it
> turns the main characters - that through the lenght of the book we
were
> lead to identify with as being the heroes - into a complying victim
> (The Cellar) and an active Villain (Savage). >>
I will definitely seek these books out. They sound like they are right
up my alley. Altho it won't be as cool now that I know what's coming.
Another film in which no becomes yes (and nastily): Bloodsucking
Freaks. The pure and resisting heroine eventually gives in and becomes
a submissive and evil wanton.
>Why do you love to see the virginal, pure, sex-unconscious heroines
being violently confronted to sexual situations? >>
It really feeds a guy's ego that he has turned an asexual woman into a
sex-crazed lunatic. Also the eradication of "stuck-up" and uptight
character traits is desired. Again, a very sexual woman without
inhibitions from the get-go isn't sexy. What's sexy is the innocent
who becomes that way.
> I don't know, although I try to rationalize it.Is it something
> primeval, a ancestral feeling from our true nature? Is it a political
> statement as yopu put it? Or is it a religious one? >>
What we're attacking, I think, isn't women, but propriety itself.
Everything that we are taught that is right and appropriate and
healthy. Secretly we desire to see all of that debauched. In real
life we wouldn't dream of it. Altho I may write about WW eating shit,
I'm quite a polite and considerate person in real life. And sometimes
I really feel like smashing everything that's decent to pieces. Maybe
women seem to represent propriety to men. They more seem to embody
politeness and sensitivity.
> Why do one get a lot more exciting to see Supergirl's breasts exposed
> through her torn shirt, than from seing Richard Gere kissing Julia
> Roberts? But, at least why do we prefer to see Wonder Woman raped,
than to see a two-cents prostitute being raped? It is some kind of
identification to the characters. I think that when we rape Wonder
Woman or Supergirl, we are raping something of ourselves, something we
identify with. >>
Superheroines represent virtue. They're perfect, and nearly always
win. And so, we enjoy seeing that overturned. Also, superhero
costumes are sexy.
> Thank you Udo for making this debate a very interesting one. I do like
> to see an author come to the arena and try to explain why he wrote
what he wrote. >>
Yes, I am very happy to discuss my work. It is possible to over-
intellectualize the issue, but I do feel that some sexy stories and
films do have considerable depth.
UK
ty...@my-deja.com
<82cj1r$qnj$1...@nnrp1.deja.c
om>,
anub...@my-deja.com
wrote:
> In article
<829sj3$3tv$1...@nnrp1.deja.c
points. I don't write
about wimpy heroes. As
stated in Last Stand in La
Jolla and mentioned in
some of my othr tales, the
Joker, Red Skull and
certain other unrepentant
villains stay away from my
GOLD heroes. My guys and
gals don't believe in PC
bullshit because they know
that few villains ever
reform. Dr. Doom would
only tangle with GOLD
once, because they don't
believe in letting
villains that want to kill
them have a second chance.
One common heme in my
stories is that it takes a
certain type of person to
be a hero or, more often
in my sex stories a
heroine. Dressing up in
costumes and running
around fighting crime
takes a personality that a
bit off.If somehow I got
the powers of my character
Questar tomorrow, I would
probably use them to kick
ass, take names and in
general use them for my
own benifit. although I
would get rid of a certain
person with the initials
B.C. withot even touching
him. I'd make him admit
what he is on tv and
resign. I'd also rid the
world of a couple of
terrorists, a Libyian, a
Cuban, an Iraqi and a
couple of others. Despite
their powers I always
believe that heroes have
the same passions and
lusts that the rest of us
do. I merely take it a
step further with my
heroines. Since they know
they're going to be hit,
doesn't it stand to reason
that maybe they like pain
even if just a little? a
masochistic streak could
very well run into this
type of person. And why
would women wantto do
these things. Men, you can
blame testasterone or
machismo for fighting. A
woman adventurer it stands
to reason would have more
in common with men than
with their own sex. Cold
that lead to desires for
their own sex as in the
majority of my stories? It
is therefore logical to
take this train of thought
into all heroines being
both masochistic and at
least bi-sexual if not
closet lesbian. Does
anyone think that Wonder
Woman doesn't have at
least a bi-sexual
backround. Women have
sexual desires, the
amazons are immortal save
for battle losses,women
without men for hundreds
of years before the
arrival of Hercules, then
without men for 2000 years
afterwards. give me a
break! anyone who doesn't
think that the amazons are
lesbians I've got
swamplamd in Colorado to
sell you! and even i don't
let the heroines win all
the time as is the case in
Cats Inc. only the
murderers and maniacs
don't live long around
GOLD.
anub...@my-deja.com
Jashin <jas...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I haven't seen this one. Fellini is a bit hard to get in my town. I
have
> seen Cinema Paradiso and Eight and 1/2 though! I love Fellini! I also
> reaslly liked the graphic novel he wrote and Milo Manara illustrated,
> Trip to Tullum (I love Manara)!
Did you read that? It is amazing isn't it? Glad you liked it.
>
> I'm not entirely sure you're clear here...let me try this as an
example:
> Part of it for me is that somewhere deep down, even if they can't
admit
> to themselves, the heroine enjoys it. It's the extra added humiliation
> of it that makes me want to think so, that at least physically they
> CAN'T HELP but enjoy it...that added humiliation in other words acts
> cyclically, feeding off itself if you will, to torture the heroine
more.
> (see pt2 of my story for an example...shameless plug!). Of course,
they
> don't enjoy it conciously...but...can anyone follow this? I've damn
near
> lost myself...
OK. Maybe I really couldn't get more confuse than I did when exposing
this idea. Let me try it in another way.
What I meant was that, in my stories at least, the heroine only likes
it (or at least thinks she likes it) due to external causes that have
nothing to do to her innermost feelings. I believe it to be a lot more
exciting when we know that she is complying but that deep in her self,
she doesn't like what she is doing.
Take this example from one of my unfinished stories (all put it down to
minimum): two friends (two girls) are invited to a strange party that
is to be held in a decrepit house in the outskirts of a smalltown USA,
that has been recently rebuilt by satyres to be used as a way for
ancient (maybe alien) demons to infiltrate our reality.
This was supposed to be a huge storie (novel lenght) and almost until
the end (it was also to be a Gothic Mistery novel) all the deeds in the
story were perfectly normal or at least able to turn into something
rational.
Well, when they were in the house, one of the girls got totally drunk
(and the drinks had a lot of aphrodysiacs in them) and got into a bet
with six male characters that said she wouldn't be abble to strip down
to slips and bra in front of them. She complies, and allows one of them
to undress her. But, due to the drugs and the booze, the starts to feel
very excited, and allows two of them to touch her and even does a blow
job to them, quite to the horror and susprise of her friend, who starts
to feel that all this is going to far away from the bet. She then tries
to stop them, but they imobilize her and don't allow her to interfere
to what is progressively becoming a consenting rape.
Not withstanding, the six guys do not take any liberties with her,
becouse she refused to participate in the bet, although they are very
excited because she is quite beautiful.
Now, her friend is about to have sex with five of the guys, and she is
consenting it, although her friend knows that she only allows it
because she is drunk and druged. And we the readers know it too.
So now, her friend is pleading to the guys not to rape her friend and
one of them replies to her something like: 'Rape? I do not see her
complaynning. She's loving it. (...) But well, if you do something for
us, maybe we'll not fuck her... jerk us off, or maybe even a blowjob...
you know...'
So her friend, who didn't want to bet from the start, who does not even
drink, has to do something to them in order for them not to rape her
drunken friend who is very willing to have an orgy - although we know
that she isn't. It's just the drug!
So, the guys keep their word, but both of the girls suck them, get
covered in sperm, titfuck them, although neither of the girls trully
want to do what they're doing. One of them doesn't want it but thinks
she does, and the other one doesn't want to do it and knows it. But we,
the readers, know that neither of them want to do it.
So, this is what I meant with not allowing the heroines to get their
release by becoming debauched themselves. They participate, sometimes
they think they do it willingly, but when they are out of the 'rape'
they are still the same 'prudes', although they may have screamed like
banshees with orgasm.
I think this is truely exciting and goes a little beyond letting the
heroines become sexcrazes. After all, they become sexcrazes but then
have to get back to reality and live with it!
> Related to this is that I really can't stand 'realistic' rape stories,
> because I want fantasy rape! Real rape is BAD! Real rape is about
power,
> just power, pure and simple, and someone always gets hurt. FANTASY
rape
> on the other hand, is about the sexiness and eroticism of power and
loss
> of control, when no one actually loses control, except maybe the
> *fictional* characters.
>
> It's very important that these characters are not real. It's part of
how
> sane people, who can tell reality from fantasy, can enjoy this stuff.
In
> these more realistic stories I can't convince myself the character
could
> at all get over it...it's just to much for 'suspension of disbelief'.
> Similarly, I don't enjoy stories where lesbians are raped by men; just
> seems too hateful, and I can't get myself to pretend that the victim
can
> be secretly enjoying it when she doesn't even like men one bit! These
> are things I do not enjoy.
It is curious that you mention this bacause yesterday night, when I
finished posting my previous message, I got the feeling I should have
written something about this.
Then I found my self thinking of it this afternoon, when THE NIGHT
WATCH was playing on TV and started to muse of the utility of erotic
content in fiction and mainly on the nature of erotic fanfiction.
This lead me to consider the figure of rape as a creative device in
both litterature and film. I mean, the script of the movie was pretty
light (it was based on Alistair McLean's novel) as a standard action
thriller. One of the lead characters was a female operative of the UN
who, in one scene, was running after one of the villains through some
dirty Amsterdam streets dressed in black trousers and a flimsy white
tank top (and she was wearing no bra).
Knowing perfectly well this tipe of movie, I thought to my self: well,
it is impossible that this isn't just a lure to something that will
never happen. I mean, we all know that she will have no erotic scene,
unless it is a very prude one with the lead male character, lost in
long opaque sheets that will reflect the hot orange light of the
filters.
Of course, in this kind of story, we do not need to have a sex scene.
All we want is an action flick, full of fistfighting and gunfighting
and all that crap like boats and cars blowing up.
What would it be the meaning of a sex scene on the plot? Why would we
want to have the female operative being raped if that was not essential
to the main plot?
And so I thought that it would only be needed when essential to the
story. But when is it the case? When is a rape scene needed for the
plot? When it is a film about rape? A film denouncing the terrible
crime that it is to rape someone?
But even in those movies it would be not necessary to graphically
display the rape. Any midlist filmmaker can do a very impressive rape
scene without showing a bit of flesh. It would be enough for one to
concentrate on the victim's eyes.
Moreover, in any of those films, for the plight to be effective it
would require a explicit rape and that is something truelly nasty, what
whit all the blood, violence and everything. I mean, a victim of a rape
is not sexually arousing. Most of the time, her skin is bruised,
bloodied and vomited on.
When someone is raping a woman, their goal is to go directly to the
vagina, without sexy foreplay or breastfondling and in most of the
cases the victim isn't even undressed: it sufises to undress the vagina.
So when do we use explicit rape?
Well, one obvious pulp example is when we put the bad guys raping women
just to show how bad they are. But they generally rape only secondary
characters and never the heroine (unless it is a classic case of a rape
and revenge story, but once again, if what matters to us is the revenge
of the character, we do not need to have an explicit rape to have fun).
So, when we despict an explicit rape, it has to be an estethically
arousing rape. An exciting rape. As jashin put it: 'a fantasy rape'.
But sometimes we found ourselves confrontated to a rape situation that
arouses us, although the scene is purported to be a 'serious' rape. One
of this cases is what happens in Peckimpah's STRAW DOGS (1971) or once
again in Richard Laymon's ISLAND (1995) and IN THE DARK (1994).
Is it 'suspension of desbelief' or something more darker and deeper?
The same question must be realated to why some persons feel aroused by
the thought of seeing their wifes/girlfriends having sex with other
guys or even being raped?
Polansky does it with her wife, Emmanuelle Seigneur, in BITTER MOON
(1990)
For a long time, most of my erotic stories - and they all were NC
stories - were about a wonderfull girlfriend I once had. But in real
life I couldn't even stand her to go out alone if wearing a miniskirt!
(can you believe the sucker a guy can be?)
Anyhow, my point is, I agree wiyh you about one having to know how to
differentiate fantasy from fiction.
>
> > Did you read Richard Laymon's THE CELLAR (1980) or SAVAGE (1994)?
The
> > end of both books would please you very much, I believe, because it
> > turns the main characters - that through the lenght of the book we
> were
> > lead to identify with as being the heroes - into a complying victim
> > (The Cellar) and an active Villain (Savage).
>
> I'm going to have to look!
Sorry to all of you guys. Although SAVAGE (actually, 1993) is one of my
favorites from Laymon, the book that has the scene I was mentioning is
ISLAND (1994). All the rest stands.
Well, do I envy you Jashin...
Unfortunatelly I didn't read the comics you mentioned, although Alan
Moore is one of my favorite comics writer (since his Swamp Thing draw
by Wrightson in the 70's).
But the deal is: here in Portugal the comics market is lower than shit.
For a few years now that we don't have american comics translated and
the imported ones are rare and very expensive. Just for you to figure
out, that mega-success GEN13 was suspended at number 15! What is
happening with Fairchild???
As to Supergirl I don't have the least idea of recent events. All I can
do is browse through some sites in the Web.
Anyway, I never said that there was no sex in superhero comics. I just
said there seemed to be no sex. After all, a sexual subtext is present
at all the stories in which the heroine is threatened by villains (male
or female), bound, or even beaten down.
What I was trying to say is that it feels umbelievable that in a world
populated by sexy crimefighters, dressed in such a way that would
horrify the most liberal of the Hayes Code's enthusiasts, there never
was an explicit sexual attempt.
I mean, I recall a story from the 70's in which Ak-Var had Supergirl
imobilized and bound to a chair. Then, instead of even feeling up her
wonderfull breasts, he just summoned up some kind of electric man to
kill her. (By the way, my first and longest fanfiction was based in
this story).
This must have a serious subtext to teenager readers: the (unconscious
desire for sex that keeps our attention focused on it) loveliness of
the character is intimatelly linked to the fact that she must die. In a
situation where everyone of us would normally think of sex, the villain
thinks of death! Eros and Thanatos are always bound one to the other.
That's another way for pornography to be liberating.
Because the world of pornography, even of X-rated films, is that of
fantasy; it's a world of endless sexual prowless and fitness.
Pornography is always dreamland.
Well, I agree also with that. It just didn't cross my mind of such a
simple explanation to be real. But I gess it is possible.
Thank you very much guys. Thank you Jashim and Tyval and WalterS and
Udo for answering to my posts and helping me out with this with such
deepness and insight.
I would love to personally answer to each of your posts but it is
getting a little later and tomorrow I'll have some trials to do, but I
promise to do it tomorrow.
Thank you again to all of you.
See you here and at my thread FANFICTION HISTORY.
Anubis17
PS: Did any one of you guys read the Druuna saga by Paolo Eleuteri
Serpieri? It is something...!
anub...@my-deja.com
made very interesting points that I'm interested in comment but can
only do it tomorrow.
Anyhow, thank you both for your help.
Please Tyval, since you are one of the oldest/experienced guys in the
forum (or so I presume) don't forgett to drop some ideas on the
FANFICTION HISTORY thread. I believe you must have something to say
about fanfic history, right?
Jashin
> So, this is what I meant with not allowing the heroines to get their
> release by becoming debauched themselves. They participate, sometimes
> they think they do it willingly, but when they are out of the 'rape'
> they are still the same 'prudes', although they may have screamed like
> banshees with orgasm.
>
> I think this is truely exciting and goes a little beyond letting the
> heroines become sexcrazes. After all, they become sexcrazes but then
> have to get back to reality and live with it!
I can definately see what you mean. I'm wondering if maybe my own stance
is a bit more complicated than I thought; I'm going to have to go look
at some stories again more analytically.
Still, I don't think they need to turn into sexcrazed nymphos as a side
effect. The mind will do wonderful things to deny what it doesn't want
to admit to itself. I think the reluctant/unwilling betrayal of her body
because she enjoys it but can't ever allow herself to admit to it is
very erotic. Maybe the heroine allows herself to get into these
threatening situations because of her subconcious need? (Tyval said
something about this as well, I believe) Could be an explanation.
> Moreover, in any of those films, for the plight to be effective it
> would require a explicit rape and that is something truelly nasty,
what
> whit all the blood, violence and everything. I mean, a victim of a
rape
> is not sexually arousing. Most of the time, her skin is bruised,
> bloodied and vomited on.
Exactly. Never a fun thing.
> But sometimes we found ourselves confrontated to a rape situation that
> arouses us, although the scene is purported to be a 'serious' rape.
One
> of this cases is what happens in Peckimpah's STRAW DOGS (1971) or once
> again in Richard Laymon's ISLAND (1995) and IN THE DARK (1994).
>
> Is it 'suspension of desbelief' or something more darker and deeper?
One thing I should like to mention here is that cops investigating sex
crimes, even against children, are supposedly but through a battery of
psych stuff. Especially if they have to review evidence, they are
constantly in and out of therapy. Apparently, this is because they will
often find themselves reacting to the material by becoming aroused,
wether they like it not. I've also heard that the real difference
between the people who think these thoughts and the people who act them
out is simply that 'we', the 'sane' people feel disgust at our arousal,
not that we don't feel arousal. Obviously, this also ties into the rape
fantasy itself.
(oh, and yes. Straw Dogs is something else. I think I'm going to have to
rent it again, soon. Been about 8 years or so since I last saw it.)
> Anyhow, my point is, I agree wiyh you about one having to know how to
> differentiate fantasy from fiction.
Wow! I never thought I'd hear this from a lawyer! ;-)
> Well, do I envy you Jashin...
> Unfortunatelly I didn't read the comics you mentioned, although Alan
> Moore is one of my favorite comics writer (since his Swamp Thing draw
> by Wrightson in the 70's).
>
> But the deal is: here in Portugal the comics market is lower than
shit.
> For a few years now that we don't have american comics translated and
> the imported ones are rare and very expensive. Just for you to figure
> out, that mega-success GEN13 was suspended at number 15! What is
> happening with Fairchild???
Shitty! Sorry to hear that!
> Anyway, I never said that there was no sex in superhero comics. I just
> said there seemed to be no sex. After all, a sexual subtext is present
> at all the stories in which the heroine is threatened by villains
(male
> or female), bound, or even beaten down.
Okay, I stand corrected! :)
> What I was trying to say is that it feels umbelievable that in a world
> populated by sexy crimefighters, dressed in such a way that would
> horrify the most liberal of the Hayes Code's enthusiasts, there never
> was an explicit sexual attempt.
Very true, but some are opening up a bit. Still, I must admit I would
love to see some WELL DONE comics with explicit content. Not for just
sex as a reason unto itself, but because, as you say, it seems unreal
that it isn't there at all!
> > And maybe we just don't 'like' men? For me that's it. I have some
gay
> > friends who are into comics, they go on about Nightwing the way we
do
> > about Batgirl, so...
>
> Well, I agree also with that. It just didn't cross my mind of such a
> simple explanation to be real. But I gess it is possible.
I've been thinking about this one some more, and I've come up some
additional ideas. Kind of work in, too.
Maybe we want to focus on the women because we don't care about the male
view? We can get that in real life, and it's so much more effective from
'her' view; ie, the victims. In my fantasies I don't want another guy
cluttering up my view with anything more than sex organs being used on
the women. The rest of 'him' doesn't matter at all; 'he' does not need
to really exist beyond a cock and balls! And that's only if I want a
male there at all!
> PS: Did any one of you guys read the Druuna saga by Paolo Eleuteri
> Serpieri? It is something...!
I'm only missing two books of it. Creatura and the newst one...next trip
to the city...love Serpieri! This a good example of 'comic with sex',
like many european works.
anub...@my-deja.com
Jashin <jas...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> > So, this is what I meant with not allowing the heroines to get their
> > release by becoming debauched themselves. They participate,
sometimes
> > they think they do it willingly, but when they are out of the 'rape'
> > they are still the same 'prudes', although they may have screamed
like
> > banshees with orgasm.
> >
> > I think this is truely exciting and goes a little beyond letting the
> > heroines become sexcrazes. After all, they become sexcrazes but then
> > have to get back to reality and live with it!
>
> I can definately see what you mean. I'm wondering if maybe my own
stance
> is a bit more complicated than I thought; I'm going to have to go look
> at some stories again more analytically.
>
> Still, I don't think they need to turn into sexcrazed nymphos as a
side
> effect. The mind will do wonderful things to deny what it doesn't want
> to admit to itself. I think the reluctant/unwilling betrayal of her
body
> because she enjoys it but can't ever allow herself to admit to it is
> very erotic. Maybe the heroine allows herself to get into these
> threatening situations because of her subconcious need? (Tyval said
> something about this as well, I believe) Could be an explanation.
Yeah, I agree. When I wrote about the heroines becoming sexcrazes I was
thinking of them becoming so during the 'rape', although I think I got
a little carried away by Udo Kier's talk of debauche, and tried to
engulf very different situations into a simple frame.
But I do believe the argument of body betrayal against mind to be very
effective (and true). Moreover because, in fact, western thinking
(philosophical and sociological) are to much dependent on the concept
of mind being more powerfull than matter, ie, nurture over nature,
virtue over temptation, etc..
Anyhow, I once again prefer my point of view (I know, I'm biased
towards me) of not allowing this to happen so simply. Or maybe I'm
getting your idea completely wrong. I mean, in most of the stories I
read concerning this general trend, as soon as the heroine starts
feeling her body being dominated by (involuntary) pleasure, her mind is
quick in following the body; hence, she orgasms and, in a way,
cooperates to some degree with the rape.
But I prefer to read (and write) about a more distinct separation
between body and mind: although the body (mechanically) responds to
sexual stimulii, the mind doesn't follow the body, which can
inclusively lead to further horror and hummiliation.
Once again, the heroine moans with pleasure: but only because her mind
tells her so; not because she feels like it or because she is starting
to love it. Something like when your teeth clatter because of the cold
but you would prefer them not to. (I agree it is a bit lame analogy).
It is more like a reflex than a true willing act.
A situation that I tend to overuse in my stories (well, maybe not
overuse, but I wrote severall similar scenes) is that situation in
which the heroine that is threatened with physical or (more frequently
moral) blackmail and is forced, for instance, to masturbate the villain
and to blow him, starts doing so with all her skills (although my
characters, like superheroines in comics and in my fanfiction, tend to
me very unexperienced; although not virgins. Today, to say that it
would be an extreme suspention of disbelief would also be a major
understatement!) hoping for him to climax soon and the torture to be
over without penetration.
Another thing that I use and that I believe heightens the desired
effect, is to frequently change the POV from one character to another
(even if there are several characters) does subtly expressing the
contrast between their oposite experiences.
But I am hoping that you develop your opinion a little more, although I
think we agree for most of it.
Here you hit a major point. Indeed you are very very right. For
instance, it is a very widely debated problem, the question of the
psychological effects of the court procedure over the victims. I mean,
everybody must agree that on trial, the judge (and jury members) must
be in complete posession of all known facts about what happen, how,
when, by who and to whom. When judging a simple robbery or aggression
case (or even a divorce) everybody will agree that the lawyer and the
judge (in the USA more the lawyer than the judge, here is just the
opposite) in order to do their job right must press the deffendant and
the witness, trying to lead them to confession or contradiction.
But when judging a rape offense, everybody feels strange about the
inquiry as to what happened, in which circunstances, 'what dis he do to
you?', 'did he touch your breasts?', 'did he tear your blouse?
How?', 'what was he doing with his hands?' and so on... Everybody
feels that it is morbid to ask such questions to the victim. This
dispite the fact that it is a far serious offense than robbery, and the
penalty to be applied if the accused is convicted is a lot heavier!
It is almost as if everybody is trying to negate their arousal, or the
knowledge that they would feel aroused if reading it on a book... or
even if it were them doing it!
And the fact that they (we) try to use aseptic language when
questioning, almost seems to deepen the feeling. It is almost as if
everybody is trying to speek a foreigh language. And sometimes they
are. They are trying to speek the socially suppressed language of sex!
Curiouslly, between yesterday and today, I read a very interesting
chapter of Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan's SHADOWS OF FORGOTTEN ANCESTORS
(1992) in which they debate a probable origin for the raping desire in
the human species (at least im human males).
In fact, in chapter 16, they say that according to a poll, a smashing
majority of american males had raping fantasies, while a lot bunch of
others said that they would rape a woman if they knew for certain they
would never be caught, and even a larger majority confessed thei would
rape a woman if the expression 'to rape' was changed to 'to force'.
(I'm quoting from memory, so I can't give you the correct percentage of
either one).
So, it seems to be very true that indeed we all feel aroused by rape
depictions or fantasies. What lends an even deeper insight to your
claim that the main distintion could well be about the ones who feel
ashamed of it and the ones who don't.
Or maybe that is just another way to hide the fact that, given the
perfect circumstances, every one of us would not hesitate to rape a
woman.
I do believe, however, that the readig and writing, and the watching of
rapes in films do prevent us from ever becoming rapists. As Desmond
Morris once put it: 'Who would need to rape or kill someone, if he can
easilly rape and kill hundreds os persons just by seating in front of
TV?' (Once again I'm quoting from memory. It's from THE HUMAN ZOO.
> > Anyhow, my point is, I agree wiyh you about one having to know how
to
> > differentiate fantasy from fiction.
>
> Wow! I never thought I'd hear this from a lawyer! ;-)
I guess half of us wouldn't even dream to admit it as a fact! :-)
> > Well, do I envy you Jashin...
> > Unfortunatelly I didn't read the comics you mentioned, although Alan
> > Moore is one of my favorite comics writer (since his Swamp Thing
draw
> > by Wrightson in the 70's).
> >
> > But the deal is: here in Portugal the comics market is lower than
> shit.
> > For a few years now that we don't have american comics translated
and
> > the imported ones are rare and very expensive. Just for you to
figure
> > out, that mega-success GEN13 was suspended at number 15! What is
> > happening with Fairchild???
>
> Shitty! Sorry to hear that!
Yeah! You tell me!
> > Anyway, I never said that there was no sex in superhero comics. I
just
> > said there seemed to be no sex. After all, a sexual subtext is
present
> > at all the stories in which the heroine is threatened by villains
> (male
> > or female), bound, or even beaten down.
>
> Okay, I stand corrected! :)
>
> > What I was trying to say is that it feels umbelievable that in a
world
> > populated by sexy crimefighters, dressed in such a way that would
> > horrify the most liberal of the Hayes Code's enthusiasts, there
never
> > was an explicit sexual attempt.
>
> Very true, but some are opening up a bit. Still, I must admit I would
> love to see some WELL DONE comics with explicit content. Not for just
> sex as a reason unto itself, but because, as you say, it seems unreal
> that it isn't there at all!
Yeah, that's it. The need to push sex out of comics is so extreme that
the only result they get is to center all the attention on it!
> > > And maybe we just don't 'like' men? For me that's it. I have some
> gay
> > > friends who are into comics, they go on about Nightwing the way we
> do
> > > about Batgirl, so...
> >
> > Well, I agree also with that. It just didn't cross my mind of such a
> > simple explanation to be real. But I gess it is possible.
>
> I've been thinking about this one some more, and I've come up some
> additional ideas. Kind of work in, too.
>
> Maybe we want to focus on the women because we don't care about the
male
> view? We can get that in real life, and it's so much more effective
from
> 'her' view; ie, the victims. In my fantasies I don't want another guy
> cluttering up my view with anything more than sex organs being used on
> the women. The rest of 'him' doesn't matter at all; 'he' does not need
> to really exist beyond a cock and balls! And that's only if I want a
> male there at all!
Well, I also think I'll try to think it over a little more. I mean,
that is something to be said about this. I'll get back to it.
> > PS: Did any one of you guys read the Druuna saga by Paolo Eleuteri
> > Serpieri? It is something...!
>
> I'm only missing two books of it. Creatura and the newst one...next
trip
> to the city...love Serpieri! This a good example of 'comic with sex',
> like many european works.
>
The next one is MANDRAGORA. Then it comes APHRODISIA, and it is about
to come out THE FORGOTTEN PLANET in France (LÀ PLANÉTE OUBLIÈE). Try
also to get the art albums DRUUNA X and SKETCHES. They are worth the
price.
In APHRODISIA there is a wonderful dream sequence that has Druuna being
raped and whipped by three men in a shack right in the middle of a
desert that will make you dream of being you one of the guys doing it.
(But nothing beats the mutants gangbang of Druuna in MANDRAGORA).
As to Fellini's movies, I can get you a copy of ARMARCORD, LA CITTÁ
DELLE DONNE and maybe of SATYRICON, but it will have to be a VHS-PAL
copy. I know in the USA some guys can get them copied to the American
system (NSTC, I think?). I once asked for some movies from the USA and
the guy who sold them got me a VHS-PAL copy. If you're interested,
please e-mail me to anu...@nortenet.pt.
Thank you for keeping up this debate and making it so interesting.
These last two days have been very complicated and tomorrow it will be
even worse, so I'll only be able to post again next wednesday. See you
then.
Anubis17