[Muse/Rant?] Back in the Day...
Andrija Popovic
about the past and how we view it. Especially if you've only heard about
it second hand.
It's summed up by this quote from the inside jacket of The Clash's just
released CD of live remasters, "Here to Eternity." Inside, they had
quotes from fans about their experiences seeing the Clash live. One
young man's comments stood out more than the others:
"I'm 18 years old. I've never been to a Clash concert, but I'd sell my
grandmother to see them play live."
When I read this, I sighed and said, "Right there with you, bub." I
didn't truly 'discover' the Clash until my freshman year in college. By
then, they'd been an ex-punk band for nearly a decade. I listened to
them, I read about them, and as I wore a hole into my copy of "Story of
the Clash Part 1" I desperately wished I could have been there. But,
thanks to an accident of fate, I'd missed out.
Reading that thread on A.F.F, hearing the reminiscences of people who
were around in the 'glory days' of the fandom, and seeing how things
have evolved now, I feel like I did when I realized I'd never hear
"White Man in Hammersmith Palais" live.
I've missed out on something, big time.
Once I start thinking that way, it's hard not to look at the past, or
even today, and start regretting all you missed. Every road not taken,
ever opportunity that slipped by, becomes a weight on your shoulder.
My introduction to the fandom was back in 1996. My first con was CFE in
Cleveland, 1996. From all I heard, fandom's more innocent days were
behind it. I stepped into a world of Balkanization, arguments on Usenet,
and conventions worrying about legal liability... After a while, one
thinks: "If only I'd found out about this earlier. I could have gone to
CF back in the day, when it was the biggest show around..."
SF Fandom? Sorry, the golden age was decades ago. Now it's all petty
bickering over shrinking market shares and competition with media
tie-ins.
Anime? Too ahead of the curve! You can tell the pioneers by the arrows
in their back. Now Anime's more accessable than ever and my once small
fandom is flooded with teenyboppers in Utena outfits. I never got to
enjoy things when they were small and intimate...
See where this thinking leads? It's easy to get drowned in regrets and
nostalga for a past you never experienced. Pulling yourself out takes
effort.
I couldn't have gone to CF in the glory days. I was in high school on
the east coast! Where could I have wrestled a plane ticket and hotel
room? I barely had enough cash for my library fines... Besides, by
coming in when I did I saw Anthrocon's birth and even helped with the
labor pains. We may never be as wild and free as CF was, but we still
put on a damn good show.
SF fandom? Sorry, but the Golden Age of SF is 12, back when I first read
"Dune." And I can go back any time I want to. The fandom shifts, but the
books perservere.
Anime? My college buddies and I helped found the second largest Anime
convention outside of Japan, without corporate or studio sponsorship!
When the world is filled with Creation-esque anime cons, people will
look back at our little efford and think, "Man, it must have been so
cool back then..."
I can't change the past, as much as I'd like to go back and fix my
mistakes. I do, however, have control over the here and now. I can learn
to live without regret.
So I may not be able to see the Clash, live and in my face. But who
knows? One day, I may get to see someone just as big long before they're
filling stadums and live CD producers are asking me things like, "So,
what was it like seeing them live?"
Andrija
--
Andrija Popovic
vu...@erols.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ka...@my-deja.com
Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> The recent thread on A.F.F about Fandom in the '80's set me thinking
> about the past and how we view it. Especially if you've only heard
about
> it second hand.
>
>
>
>
> were around in the 'glory days' of the fandom, and seeing how things
> have evolved now, I feel like I did when I realized I'd never hear
> "White Man in Hammersmith Palais" live.
>
CFE in
> Cleveland, 1996. From all I heard, fandom's more innocent days were
> behind it. I stepped into a world of Balkanization, arguments on
Usenet,
> and conventions worrying about legal liability... After a while, one
> thinks: "If only I'd found out about this earlier. I could have gone
to
> CF back in the day, when it was the biggest show around..."
I agree, Andrija, but I have a different perspective. On the one
hand, I have been told that the first CF I attended(CF9) was the best,
and the ones before weren't as fun, so I was lucky to have "joined"
when I did. On the other hand, I too, wish I had been able to join the
fandom when it started. I was in high school, so an impractical wish at
best.
One of the things I find most frustrating about the fandom is the
lack of written materials on the history of the fandom. There is no
book you can open to find out"how things were". New furs come into the
fandom without being able to do even basic research about furcons,
behavior, and incidents of the past..except through Deja and furry
veterans who are generous with their time and memories(Thanks Lisa:))
Even so, I was shocked when a new fur called me a veteran. Me? I
don't think so! I still am learning many new things about the fandom.
However, the incident did put things into perspective. To new furs, we
will have con tales of how things "were" and they will wish that they,
too, "had been there when....."
I agree that we put on a good show at AC. That was one of the reasons
I became a staff member..to add my infinitesimal contribution to the
con and to fandom history. Maybe someday I will write a book about the
history of the fandom for those furs who might find it of interest...if
Fred Patten doesn't beat me to it:)
>
> >
> >
>
> >
> Andrija
>
> --
> Andrija Popovic
> vu...@erols.com
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Kagur
Andrija Popovic
ka...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8o0lfr$g43$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > The recent thread on A.F.F about Fandom in the '80's set me thinking
> > about the past and how we view it. Especially if you've only heard
> about
> > it second hand.
> > Reading that thread on A.F.F, hearing the reminiscences of people
who
> > were around in the 'glory days' of the fandom, and seeing how things
> > have evolved now, I feel like I did when I realized I'd never hear
> > "White Man in Hammersmith Palais" live.
> >
> > > My introduction to the fandom was back in 1996. My first con was
> CFE in
> > Cleveland, 1996. From all I heard, fandom's more innocent days were
> > behind it. I stepped into a world of Balkanization, arguments on
> Usenet,
> > and conventions worrying about legal liability... After a while, one
> > thinks: "If only I'd found out about this earlier. I could have gone
> to
> > CF back in the day, when it was the biggest show around..."
>
> I agree, Andrija, but I have a different perspective. On the one
> hand, I have been told that the first CF I attended(CF9) was the best,
> and the ones before weren't as fun, so I was lucky to have "joined"
> when I did. On the other hand, I too, wish I had been able to join the
> fandom when it started. I was in high school, so an impractical wish
at
> best.
What year was CF9? My memory has slipped a bit. But, yeah, practicality
loomed large over my convention trips. Going to CFE that year was a HUGE
undertaking. It was only through sheer luck that I was able to go and it
still put me in the economic hole for a while.
> One of the things I find most frustrating about the fandom is the
> lack of written materials on the history of the fandom. There is no
> book you can open to find out"how things were". New furs come into the
> fandom without being able to do even basic research about furcons,
> behavior, and incidents of the past..except through Deja and furry
> veterans who are generous with their time and memories(Thanks Lisa:))
Alas, I think many people aren't terribly interested in learning from
the past. Or, they're far more interested in using bits of the past to
support their political positions.
> Even so, I was shocked when a new fur called me a veteran. Me? I
> don't think so! I still am learning many new things about the fandom.
> However, the incident did put things into perspective. To new furs, we
> will have con tales of how things "were" and they will wish that they,
> too, "had been there when....."
I'm going through that with Otakon. It's the Geezer syndrome. Suddenly,
you're an old man at 27 because everyone around you is 16 going on 20.
And you find yourself falling into lines of thought like, "Gundam kits
at a Suncoast? Damn, I remember when you said 'Gundam' and they thought
'gazundheit.'"
> I agree that we put on a good show at AC. That was one of the
reasons
> I became a staff member..to add my infinitesimal contribution to the
> con and to fandom history. Maybe someday I will write a book about the
> history of the fandom for those furs who might find it of
interest...if
> Fred Patten doesn't beat me to it:)
Hey, no one has a claim to history. :) If you've got the drive, go for
it. My biggest fear, honestly, is that a history of furry fandom might
fall into one of the following categories:
(1) Too militantly nostalgic. You see this in a lot of '60's histories,
especially where the youth movements are concerned. They see events
through rose colored glasses, so intent on supporting their
'revoloution' they ignore a lot of negative aspects.
(2) Too political. History books are some of the most dangerous weapons
avalible, when in the wrong hands. Given a chance, someone could easily
write a history of furry fandom designed to justify themselves. And this
goes to all the little groups out there. History should never be an
excuse for irresponsibity.
(3) Too personal. It's a really small fandom and personal feudes take on
the scope of Sicilian vendettas very quickly. I can easily see someone
writing a history of furry fandom for the sole purpose of trashing
someone who 'ruined their fun' or something similar. Remember the slew
of books that came out after the OJ trial? Now imagine some of furry's
nastiest feudes taking shape in written documents, sold at
conventions...
(4) Too sanitized. Given all the trouble an honest, unblinking history
of any fandom, especially furry fandom, could cause a writer could
easily go in the other direction and expunge anything controversial.
What you're left with is a reciting of events, with no color or context.
To sum up: Anyone who wants to write an honest, unflinching history of
furry fandom, mange and all, has a lot of courage. There's a reason many
former Communist states considered typewriters 'dangerous weapons.' The
pen has power.
> --
> Kagur
ka...@my-deja.com
Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> In article <8o0r61$nft$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ka...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8o0lfr$g43$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
>
> What year was CF9? My memory has slipped a bit. But, yeah,
practicality
> loomed large over my convention trips. Going to CFE that year was a
HUGE
> undertaking. It was only through sheer luck that I was able to go and
it
> still put me in the economic hole for a while.
CF9 was in January of 1998:) I had more fun during that con than the
entire previous year:)
>
> > >
> Alas, I think many people aren't terribly interested in learning from
> the past. Or, they're far more interested in using bits of the past to
> support their political positions.
>
I can't disagree, but I still think a basic encyclopedia would be
helpful. For example, remember the thread on AFF about the significance
of the Erma Felna Crowbar? An encyclopedia would have an entry under
Crowbar, explaining the reference and followed by See Also references
to establish context: See Also Albedo, See Also Gallacci, Steve, See
Also Felna, Erma See Also Sketchbook Etiquette. It shouldn't be totally
dry, but certainly one could have an entry on Jim Groat and his antics
during conventions without conveying either approval or disapproval.
You are right that politics would color things differently...an
encyclopedia written by a lifestyler or lifestyler sympathizer would be
very different from one penned by a Burned Fur supporter.
> > --
> > Kagur
>
> Andrija
>
> --
> Andrija Popovic
> vu...@erols.com
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Kagur
Andrija Popovic
ka...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > What year was CF9? My memory has slipped a bit. But, yeah,
> practicality
> > loomed large over my convention trips. Going to CFE that year was a
> HUGE
> > undertaking. It was only through sheer luck that I was able to go
and
> it
> > still put me in the economic hole for a while.
>
> CF9 was in January of 1998:) I had more fun during that con than the
> entire previous year:)
Ahh. Small wonder I couldn't afford to go. I was living on a temp's
salary that time. :p
+snip
> > To sum up: Anyone who wants to write an honest, unflinching history
of
> > furry fandom, mange and all, has a lot of courage. There's a reason
> many
> > former Communist states considered typewriters 'dangerous weapons.'
> The
> > pen has power.
> >
>
> I can't disagree, but I still think a basic encyclopedia would be
> helpful. For example, remember the thread on AFF about the
significance
> of the Erma Felna Crowbar? An encyclopedia would have an entry under
> Crowbar, explaining the reference and followed by See Also references
> to establish context: See Also Albedo, See Also Gallacci, Steve, See
> Also Felna, Erma See Also Sketchbook Etiquette.
That's a bit different from a history, though. More like a 'frequently
asked questions' file or the 'Anime Companion' that was put out,
explaining all the cultural references.
It shouldn't be
totally
> dry, but certainly one could have an entry on Jim Groat and his antics
> during conventions without conveying either approval or disapproval.
Someone could still read tone into the work. People tend to slap their
perceptions on everything.
> You are right that politics would color things differently...an
> encyclopedia written by a lifestyler or lifestyler sympathizer would
be
> very different from one penned by a Burned Fur supporter.
And, I'm afraid, both would become propaganda tools. :(
> --
> Kagur
Khromat
> about the past and how we view it. Especially if you've only heard
about
> it second hand.
There are times I am tempted on looking over AFF again, and then I think
better of it and stay away from there. This is one of those times I wish
I had lurked. :3
The biggest problem with the 'back in the day' nostalgia is that few
people ever see the experience from a perspective large enough to convey
to others the significance of that experience. You are too close in the
action, often with a small grouping within that larger grouping.
Everyone's heard about the mud-flinging orgies of the original
Woodstock, but actually not very many people *truely* did that, and most
of those couldn't remember those drug-hazed days even if they wanted to.
I may be one of the 'charter furry fandom members', but my involvement
was tied directly to Mark Merlino's circle of influence in Orange
County, California. There were other 'circles of influence' of furrydom
in other areas of the country (notably: San Diego, San Francisco Bay
Area, New York City, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Seattle, and Dallas). Furry
Fandom is an aggregation, a bunch of similar starting points eventually
meeting each other and merging to form a whole. Sy and the LA Furry
Crew were Science Fiction fans first, brought the first Anime to the US
westcost, and were strong roleplaying gamers; the San Diego furs, Dallas
furs and the Minneapolis Underground started through comics, the NYC
furs were the mirror image of LA in origin but not execution, the Bay
Area Furs were always strongly Net oriented, and so forth. Each 'circle
of influence' had an initial interest, then came out further to
encompass most of what we have in fandom today, then met the other
'circles' and joined forces. I can relate stories I've heard about SF
furry fandom from the old days, but they are as remote to me as any of
my stories are remote to the New Breed comming in from a solely Internet
origin.
I don't mind regaling stories of the 'good ol days' but I try to stress
that my knowledge *is* limited to the one region, one 'branch' of that
history. I already had one argument from someone (a while ago) about how
fandom only got 'sex' after Merlino started CF... not because he didn't
know the history, but because he *only* knew the local history for his
area, which was not as strongly gay/bi/sexually active as the LA
furrydom had been until after a few local furs attended a CF and brought
back with them that change in attitude.
-- ermine
==================================
home email: KhromatAtInOrbitDotCom
Khromat
> In article <8o0lfr$g43$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > The recent thread on A.F.F about Fandom in the '80's set me thinking
> > about the past and how we view it. Especially if you've only heard
> about
> > it second hand.
> >
> >
> >
> >
who
> > were around in the 'glory days' of the fandom, and seeing how things
> > have evolved now, I feel like I did when I realized I'd never hear
> > "White Man in Hammersmith Palais" live.
> >
> > > My introduction to the fandom was back in 1996. My first con was
> CFE in
> > Cleveland, 1996. From all I heard, fandom's more innocent days were
> > behind it. I stepped into a world of Balkanization, arguments on
> Usenet,
> > and conventions worrying about legal liability... After a while, one
> > thinks: "If only I'd found out about this earlier. I could have gone
> to
> > CF back in the day, when it was the biggest show around..."
>
> I agree, Andrija, but I have a different perspective. On the one
> hand, I have been told that the first CF I attended(CF9) was the best,
> and the ones before weren't as fun, so I was lucky to have "joined"
> when I did. On the other hand, I too, wish I had been able to join the
> fandom when it started. I was in high school, so an impractical wish
at
> best.
CF9, IMHO, was the best CF overall, although I actually had more fun at
prior CFs... and ironically, I had the most fun at CF10, including
helping out the best Cabaret we've had in years, eventhough I think CF10
was not as good a con as past years. I'm wierd that way, I can be
subjective and objective about something. ;3
> One of the things I find most frustrating about the fandom is the
> lack of written materials on the history of the fandom. There is no
> book you can open to find out"how things were". New furs come into the
> fandom without being able to do even basic research about furcons,
> behavior, and incidents of the past..except through Deja and furry
> veterans who are generous with their time and memories(Thanks Lisa:))
Well, while a book would be nice, we are in the age of Information
Overload. I think a hypertext website would be better, but then we'd
need someone to maintain it and that winds down a twisty political road
on its own...
> Even so, I was shocked when a new fur called me a veteran. Me? I
> don't think so! I still am learning many new things about the fandom.
> However, the incident did put things into perspective. To new furs, we
> will have con tales of how things "were" and they will wish that they,
> too, "had been there when....."
Ahm, I'm considered a veteren on FurryMUCK, eventhough I've only been on
it since 1995, 4 years after it started. It's all a matter of
perspective. :3
> I agree that we put on a good show at AC. That was one of the
reasons
> I became a staff member..to add my infinitesimal contribution to the
> con and to fandom history. Maybe someday I will write a book about the
> history of the fandom for those furs who might find it of
interest...if
> Fred Patten doesn't beat me to it:)
Fred's talent as an editor and Collector of Information is his main
contribution to furrydom... I know he's done an authorative Furrydom
Timeline and some bibliographies for Yarf!, although I don't know if
they have any copies left or reprints made. It's certain something to
ask them about.
Mayhaps the best thing for someone to do bookwise is to find out the
major players of the various 'circles of interest'... the old crew from
the Dallas, Seattle, SF, NYC and so forth areas, and have someone
*interview* them, then compile a book of 'Tails of the Fandom' so that
the multiple perspectives can be seen.
Andrija Popovic
Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8o0lfr$g43$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > The recent thread on A.F.F about Fandom in the '80's set me thinking
> > about the past and how we view it. Especially if you've only heard
> about
> > it second hand.
>
think
> better of it and stay away from there. This is one of those times I
wish
> I had lurked. :3
The thread is still there. It's short, but still extant.
> The biggest problem with the 'back in the day' nostalgia is that few
> people ever see the experience from a perspective large enough to
convey
> to others the significance of that experience. You are too close in
the
> action, often with a small grouping within that larger grouping.
> Everyone's heard about the mud-flinging orgies of the original
> Woodstock, but actually not very many people *truely* did that, and
most
> of those couldn't remember those drug-hazed days even if they wanted
to.
Exactly. While personal experiences are interesting and often
entertaining, they need to be placed in a wider tapestry of events to
take on real meaning. But, people being people, the filter their
experiences. You hear about the dedicated activists working to end the
Vietnam war; you don't hear about the people who went to campus protests
as a way of skipping class and picking up girls.
> I may be one of the 'charter furry fandom members', but my involvement
> was tied directly to Mark Merlino's circle of influence in Orange
> County, California. There were other 'circles of influence' of
furrydom
> in other areas of the country (notably: San Diego, San Francisco Bay
> Area, New York City, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Seattle, and Dallas). Furry
> Fandom is an aggregation, a bunch of similar starting points
eventually
> meeting each other and merging to form a whole.+snip
Each
'circle
> of influence' had an initial interest, then came out further to
> encompass most of what we have in fandom today, then met the other
> 'circles' and joined forces. I can relate stories I've heard about SF
> furry fandom from the old days, but they are as remote to me as any of
> my stories are remote to the New Breed comming in from a solely
Internet
> origin.
This ties into Kagur's desire for a broader history of the fandom. So
you can see that it just didn't appear on the West coast and spread
outwards. Breadth of perspective is the hallmark of a good historical
account. Take most books about the punk music scene. They tend to focus
on London's punk tribes because they were the first to gain real
attention, but they forget about the growing scenes in New York and,
later, LA and Washington DC.
A good historian does not limit his or her vision.
> I don't mind regaling stories of the 'good ol days' but I try to
stress
> that my knowledge *is* limited to the one region, one 'branch' of that
> history. I already had one argument from someone (a while ago) about
how
> fandom only got 'sex' after Merlino started CF... not because he
didn't
> know the history, but because he *only* knew the local history for his
> area, which was not as strongly gay/bi/sexually active as the LA
> furrydom had been until after a few local furs attended a CF and
brought
> back with them that change in attitude.
I run into the same problem with Anime fandom. I hear stories all the
time about how Anime fandom was totally limited to the West coast until
the advent of the Internet. Sorry, but there were Anime clubs in the
East coast for just as long as the West had them. But because the West
started their Anime cons first, everyone assumed it was the
'birthplace.'
> -- ermine
Andrija
--
Andrija Popovic
vu...@erols.com
Andrija Popovic
Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> ka...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I agree, Andrija, but I have a different perspective. On the one
> > hand, I have been told that the first CF I attended(CF9) was the
best,
> > and the ones before weren't as fun, so I was lucky to have "joined"
> > when I did. On the other hand, I too, wish I had been able to join
the
> > fandom when it started. I was in high school, so an impractical wish
> at
> > best.
>
> CF9, IMHO, was the best CF overall, although I actually had more fun
at
> prior CFs... and ironically, I had the most fun at CF10, including
> helping out the best Cabaret we've had in years, eventhough I think
CF10
> was not as good a con as past years. I'm wierd that way, I can be
> subjective and objective about something. ;3
Conventions are such large, multi-faceted beasts it's hard to sum them
up in a few words. You love and loathe different things about them.
> > One of the things I find most frustrating about the fandom is the
> > lack of written materials on the history of the fandom. There is no
> > book you can open to find out"how things were". New furs come into
the
> > fandom without being able to do even basic research about furcons,
> > behavior, and incidents of the past..except through Deja and furry
> > veterans who are generous with their time and memories(Thanks
Lisa:))
>
> Well, while a book would be nice, we are in the age of Information
> Overload. I think a hypertext website would be better, but then we'd
> need someone to maintain it and that winds down a twisty political
road
> on its own...
<shiver> Yeah, it's a bit like appointing someone to a cabinate
position. No matter how qualified that person may be, one political
faction or another will object. Which is a pity, since a fandom
resource page would be a great idea. Certainly a nice spot for
explaining things like the Crowbar joke.
> > Even so, I was shocked when a new fur called me a veteran. Me? I
> > don't think so! I still am learning many new things about the
fandom.
> > However, the incident did put things into perspective. To new furs,
we
> > will have con tales of how things "were" and they will wish that
they,
> > too, "had been there when....."
>
> Ahm, I'm considered a veteren on FurryMUCK, eventhough I've only been
on
> it since 1995, 4 years after it started. It's all a matter of
> perspective. :3
<chuckle> Wow. That's when I got my first character there, Steelfur.
<geezer> I remember using TelNet for Mac version 1.5b to log on. Penn
State's unix system didn't have TinyFuge installed and MUDweller being
openly distributed was still a year off... </geezer>
> > I agree that we put on a good show at AC. That was one of the
> reasons
> > I became a staff member..to add my infinitesimal contribution to the
> > con and to fandom history. Maybe someday I will write a book about
the
> > history of the fandom for those furs who might find it of
> interest...if
> > Fred Patten doesn't beat me to it:)
>
> Fred's talent as an editor and Collector of Information is his main
> contribution to furrydom... I know he's done an authorative Furrydom
> Timeline and some bibliographies for Yarf!, although I don't know if
> they have any copies left or reprints made. It's certain something to
> ask them about.
The timeline is on the Yarf! web page. However, even it is not immune to
questions. In the AFF thread, someone pointed out that it ends at 1996
and is slanted towards the West coast fandom. But it is a start.
> Mayhaps the best thing for someone to do bookwise is to find out the
> major players of the various 'circles of interest'... the old crew
from
> the Dallas, Seattle, SF, NYC and so forth areas, and have someone
> *interview* them, then compile a book of 'Tails of the Fandom' so that
> the multiple perspectives can be seen.
<smile> Gods, I'd love to do that. But in my hands it'd probably end up
like "London's Dreaming" or "Please Kill Me," two great books on the
punk scene filled with interviews, conflicting memories, and even
journal excerpts.
> -- ermine
> ==================================
ka...@my-deja.com
Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> In article <8o37im$fov$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <8o0lfr$g43$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > There are times I am tempted on looking over AFF again, and then I
> think
> > better of it and stay away from there. This is one of those times I
> wish
> > I had lurked. :3
>
> The thread is still there. It's short, but still extant.
>
> > The biggest problem with the 'back in the day' nostalgia is that few
> > people ever see the experience from a perspective large enough to
> convey
> > to others the significance of that experience. >
> >
involvement
> > was tied directly to Mark Merlino's circle of influence in Orange
> > County, California. There were other 'circles of influence' of
> furrydom
> > in other areas of the country (notably: San Diego, San Francisco Bay
> > Area, New York City, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Seattle, and Dallas).
Furry
> > Fandom is an aggregation, a bunch of similar starting points
> eventually
> > meeting each other and merging to form a whole.+snip
> Each
> 'circle
> > of influence' had an initial interest, then came out further to
> > encompass most of what we have in fandom today, then met the other
> > 'circles' and joined forces. I can relate stories I've heard about
SF
> > furry fandom from the old days, but they are as remote to me as any
of
> > my stories are remote to the New Breed comming in from a solely
> Internet
> > origin.
Very true. My perspective would be very limited, and I don't think I
have any kind of overview. Interviewing the different "leaders" of the
different geographical regions would be a good way to get that overall
picture of the fandom. Of course, the question then is who to
interview. There will always be someone who will say "You should have
interviewed me and not so-and-so. So-and-so is not a Real Furry Veteran"
>
> This ties into Kagur's desire for a broader history of the fandom. So
> you can see that it just didn't appear on the West coast and spread
> outwards. Breadth of perspective is the hallmark of a good historical
> account. Take most books about the punk music scene. They tend to
focus
> on London's punk tribes because they were the first to gain real
> attention, but they forget about the growing scenes in New York and,
> later, LA and Washington DC.
>
> A good historian does not limit his or her vision.
>
> > I don't mind regaling stories of the 'good ol days' but I try to
> stress
> > that my knowledge *is* limited to the one region, one 'branch' of
that
> > history. I already had one argument from someone (a while ago) about
> how
> > fandom only got 'sex' after Merlino started CF... not because he
> didn't
> > know the history, but because he *only* knew the local history for
his
> > area, which was not as strongly gay/bi/sexually active as the LA
> > furrydom had been until after a few local furs attended a CF and
> brought
> > back with them that change in attitude.
Even so, your perspective is still more authentic than the garbled
threads I get from deja and your memory is very accurate. Thank you for
putting up with my questions:) I would dread having to interview some
of the more colorful members of our fandom.
>
> >
> > -- ermine
>
> Andrija
>
> --
> Andrija Popovic
> vu...@erols.com
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Kagur
Khromat
> Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > ka...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > I agree, Andrija, but I have a different perspective. On the one
> > > hand, I have been told that the first CF I attended(CF9) was the
> best,
> > > and the ones before weren't as fun, so I was lucky to have
"joined"
> > > when I did. On the other hand, I too, wish I had been able to join
> the
> > > fandom when it started. I was in high school, so an impractical
wish
> > at
> > > best.
> >
> > CF9, IMHO, was the best CF overall, although I actually had more fun
> at
> > prior CFs... and ironically, I had the most fun at CF10, including
> > helping out the best Cabaret we've had in years, eventhough I think
> CF10
> > was not as good a con as past years. I'm wierd that way, I can be
> > subjective and objective about something. ;3
>
> Conventions are such large, multi-faceted beasts it's hard to sum them
> up in a few words. You love and loathe different things about them.
Yes, but the beast can also be summed up in broad terms... CF9 was a
herd of wild horses: dangerous to control, but beautiful to watch move
on its own. CF10 was a wolf-dog hybrid pup: paws too big, wishing to
please but at the same time dangerous and unpredicable and not the
domestic animal its owner thinks it is.
> > > One of the things I find most frustrating about the fandom is
the
> > > lack of written materials on the history of the fandom. There is
no
> > > book you can open to find out"how things were". New furs come into
> the
> > > fandom without being able to do even basic research about furcons,
> > > behavior, and incidents of the past..except through Deja and furry
> > > veterans who are generous with their time and memories(Thanks
> Lisa:))
> >
> > Well, while a book would be nice, we are in the age of Information
> > Overload. I think a hypertext website would be better, but then we'd
> > need someone to maintain it and that winds down a twisty political
> road
> > on its own...
>
> <shiver> Yeah, it's a bit like appointing someone to a cabinate
> position. No matter how qualified that person may be, one political
> faction or another will object. Which is a pity, since a fandom
> resource page would be a great idea. Certainly a nice spot for
> explaining things like the Crowbar joke.
I suppose in my rapidly-expanding website design I can make a FFFaq
(FurryFandomFaq) and start tossing information up there...
> > > Even so, I was shocked when a new fur called me a veteran. Me? I
> > > don't think so! I still am learning many new things about the
> fandom.
> > > However, the incident did put things into perspective. To new
furs,
> we
> > > will have con tales of how things "were" and they will wish that
> they,
> > > too, "had been there when....."
> >
> > Ahm, I'm considered a veteren on FurryMUCK, eventhough I've only
been
> on
> > it since 1995, 4 years after it started. It's all a matter of
> > perspective. :3
>
> <chuckle> Wow. That's when I got my first character there, Steelfur.
> <geezer> I remember using TelNet for Mac version 1.5b to log on. Penn
> State's unix system didn't have TinyFuge installed and MUDweller being
> openly distributed was still a year off... </geezer>
I got on through home when we finally got a net connection... but I had
heard about FM for a bit before that, and I *had* been active on FidoNet
for years prior, so I was no spring chicken when I first logged in.
Actually, it was rather humorous -- Shaterri was the first wizard to
help me, the first person to show me around, and the first person I met
on the muck that I *didn't* already know in RL. He took me to NotFrank's
Place and was surprised at the crowd appearing to mob me! Then again,
these were all Tigers Den (FidoNET) allumni who had been waiting for 4
years for me to appear, and had unfortunately traumatized two other
characters (Ermine and Whiffert) when *they* first appeared, thinking it
was me. ;3
> > > I agree that we put on a good show at AC. That was one of the
> > reasons
> > > I became a staff member..to add my infinitesimal contribution to
the
> > > con and to fandom history. Maybe someday I will write a book about
> the
> > > history of the fandom for those furs who might find it of
> > interest...if
> > > Fred Patten doesn't beat me to it:)
> >
> > Fred's talent as an editor and Collector of Information is his main
> > contribution to furrydom... I know he's done an authorative Furrydom
> > Timeline and some bibliographies for Yarf!, although I don't know if
> > they have any copies left or reprints made. It's certain something
to
> > ask them about.
>
> The timeline is on the Yarf! web page. However, even it is not immune
to
> questions. In the AFF thread, someone pointed out that it ends at 1996
> and is slanted towards the West coast fandom. But it is a start.
Errr, there's a *reason* for that slant, and any old fogies who complain
have nobody but themselves to blame. Fred spent 3 YEARS asking people to
contact him from all over fandom so he could get the Timeline straight,
and I know he asked at cons that had large populations of fen from
outside the LA area. After compiling all his data, the timeline you see
is what he came up with.
Yes, us old fogies all agree that Sy *was* a founder of FurryFandom --
because he's the one who came up with creating a con, and he's the one
who went around cons across the country having room parties for folks to
watch furry animation and draw, thus the Furry Party was born. Sure,
there were groups of friends who shared furry stuff prior to this; heck,
items we call 'furry' today have been around for millenia if you want to
play semantic games. But the *fandom*, the organization of many people,
can be traced back to Sy. Whether people like him or not.
The TigersDen, after much research, was concluded to be the oldest of
the 100% furry BBS systems, and FurNET originated from there, although
Stormgate Eyrie (Nicolai Shapero's BBS) had a strong hand in the
organization of the boards going through FurNET. And, in case it's not
on that timeline of information, the TigersDen was located at the
Prancing Skiltaire... Mark Merlino's residence, first an apartment and
then the sprawling house in Garden Grove where he still lives.
> > Mayhaps the best thing for someone to do bookwise is to find out the
> > major players of the various 'circles of interest'... the old crew
> from
> > the Dallas, Seattle, SF, NYC and so forth areas, and have someone
> > *interview* them, then compile a book of 'Tails of the Fandom' so
that
> > the multiple perspectives can be seen.
>
> <smile> Gods, I'd love to do that. But in my hands it'd probably end
up
> like "London's Dreaming" or "Please Kill Me," two great books on the
> punk scene filled with interviews, conflicting memories, and even
> journal excerpts.
>
Okay.... is this bad, or good?
-- ermine
==================================
home email: KhromatAtInOrbitDotCom
Khromat
> I run into the same problem with Anime fandom. I hear stories all the
> time about how Anime fandom was totally limited to the West coast
until
> the advent of the Internet. Sorry, but there were Anime clubs in the
> East coast for just as long as the West had them. But because the West
> started their Anime cons first, everyone assumed it was the
> 'birthplace.'
Well, that's understandable... CFO, the Cartoon Fantasy Organization,
was started by.... Mark Merlino. (No, really!) He had friends here and
in New York and he and they had contacts in Japan and were trading
tapes... CFO became an nationwide organization, at which point Mark
stepped down (I always thought of it as him letting his child go on its
own), which was sad because not too long after that the Organization
factionalized and split apart... there are remains of CFOs all over the
place (The Philly Animation group is one of them) and that helped fuel
the Animation Clubs in universities to collect anime (and other non-US
animation), and thus the Anime Revolution was born. ;3
Again, there were small groups before, but Sy ironically helped solidify
those groups into a unified fannish interest. Without people on both
sides of the continent smuggling those tapes in during the 1980's, we
would never have had the Anime Invasion as we do now.
Andrija Popovic
Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > CF9, IMHO, was the best CF overall, although I actually had more
fun
> > at
> > > prior CFs... and ironically, I had the most fun at CF10, including
> > > helping out the best Cabaret we've had in years, eventhough I
think
> > CF10
> > > was not as good a con as past years. I'm wierd that way, I can be
> > > subjective and objective about something. ;3
> >
> > Conventions are such large, multi-faceted beasts it's hard to sum
them
> > up in a few words. You love and loathe different things about them.
>
> Yes, but the beast can also be summed up in broad terms... CF9 was a
> herd of wild horses: dangerous to control, but beautiful to watch move
> on its own. CF10 was a wolf-dog hybrid pup: paws too big, wishing to
> please but at the same time dangerous and unpredicable and not the
> domestic animal its owner thinks it is.
<chuckle> Gods, what a great metaphor. I can't help but wonder what the
various AC translate into...
> > > Well, while a book would be nice, we are in the age of Information
> > > Overload. I think a hypertext website would be better, but then
we'd
> > > need someone to maintain it and that winds down a twisty political
> > road
> > > on its own...
> >
> > <shiver> Yeah, it's a bit like appointing someone to a cabinate
> > position. No matter how qualified that person may be, one political
> > faction or another will object. Which is a pity, since a fandom
> > resource page would be a great idea. Certainly a nice spot for
> > explaining things like the Crowbar joke.
>
> I suppose in my rapidly-expanding website design I can make a FFFaq
> (FurryFandomFaq) and start tossing information up there...
That'd be nice, actually. I know a few Furry gateway pages would love to
have a link to something like that.
> > > Ahm, I'm considered a veteren on FurryMUCK, eventhough I've only
> been
> > on
> > > it since 1995, 4 years after it started. It's all a matter of
> > > perspective. :3
> >
> > <chuckle> Wow. That's when I got my first character there, Steelfur.
> > <geezer> I remember using TelNet for Mac version 1.5b to log on.
Penn
> > State's unix system didn't have TinyFuge installed and MUDweller
being
> > openly distributed was still a year off... </geezer>
>
> I got on through home when we finally got a net connection... but I
had
> heard about FM for a bit before that, and I *had* been active on
FidoNet
> for years prior, so I was no spring chicken when I first logged in.
I heard rumblings about local BBS's in high school, but couldn't afford
a computer, much less a modem to go with it.
> Actually, it was rather humorous -- Shaterri was the first wizard to
> help me, the first person to show me around, and the first person I
met
> on the muck that I *didn't* already know in RL. He took me to
NotFrank's
> Place and was surprised at the crowd appearing to mob me!
!Frank's Place was one of the first regular hang-outs I patronized.
Didn't know it had a history, though.
Then again,
> these were all Tigers Den (FidoNET) allumni who had been waiting for 4
> years for me to appear, and had unfortunately traumatized two other
> characters (Ermine and Whiffert) when *they* first appeared, thinking
it
> was me. ;3
<laugh> That must have been some feeling, getting pounced like that...
Well, for those complaining about being left out, they should have
spoken up then. When history is listening, silence can damn.
> Yes, us old fogies all agree that Sy *was* a founder of FurryFandom --
> because he's the one who came up with creating a con, and he's the one
> who went around cons across the country having room parties for folks
to
> watch furry animation and draw, thus the Furry Party was born. Sure,
> there were groups of friends who shared furry stuff prior to this;
heck,
> items we call 'furry' today have been around for millenia if you want
to
> play semantic games. But the *fandom*, the organization of many
people,
> can be traced back to Sy. Whether people like him or not.
Anime fandom traces it's roots, not to a single person, but to Fred
Patten's CFO! :)
> The TigersDen, after much research, was concluded to be the oldest of
> the 100% furry BBS systems, and FurNET originated from there, although
> Stormgate Eyrie (Nicolai Shapero's BBS) had a strong hand in the
> organization of the boards going through FurNET. And, in case it's not
> on that timeline of information, the TigersDen was located at the
> Prancing Skiltaire... Mark Merlino's residence, first an apartment and
> then the sprawling house in Garden Grove where he still lives.
Wow. Well, Kagur, if you ever want to start your interviews, there's
number one on the list.
> > > Mayhaps the best thing for someone to do bookwise is to find out
the
> > > major players of the various 'circles of interest'... the old crew
> > from
> > > the Dallas, Seattle, SF, NYC and so forth areas, and have someone
> > > *interview* them, then compile a book of 'Tails of the Fandom' so
> that
> > > the multiple perspectives can be seen.
> >
> > <smile> Gods, I'd love to do that. But in my hands it'd probably end
> up
> > like "London's Dreaming" or "Please Kill Me," two great books on the
> > punk scene filled with interviews, conflicting memories, and even
> > journal excerpts.
>
> Okay.... is this bad, or good?
I think it's great. Because of the way those two books were put
together, you got a very viscreral sense of the times. It was living
history, knots and warps and all, right there for you to dip your
fingers into. :)
> -- ermine
Andrija
--
Andrija Popovic
vu...@erols.com
Andrija Popovic
Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8o3ajg$jb6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > I run into the same problem with Anime fandom. I hear stories all
the
> > time about how Anime fandom was totally limited to the West coast
> until
> > the advent of the Internet. Sorry, but there were Anime clubs in the
> > East coast for just as long as the West had them. But because the
West
> > started their Anime cons first, everyone assumed it was the
> > 'birthplace.'
>
> Well, that's understandable... CFO, the Cartoon Fantasy Organization,
> was started by.... Mark Merlino. (No, really!)
<blink> Now that's news to me. All the Original Gangastas at Otakon
credit Fred Patten with starting and running CFO.
He had friends here and
> in New York and he and they had contacts in Japan and were trading
> tapes... CFO became an nationwide organization, at which point Mark
> stepped down (I always thought of it as him letting his child go on
its
> own), which was sad because not too long after that the Organization
> factionalized and split apart... there are remains of CFOs all over
the
> place (The Philly Animation group is one of them) and that helped fuel
> the Animation Clubs in universities to collect anime (and other non-US
> animation), and thus the Anime Revolution was born. ;3
<chuckle> How did Kzin (one of our OG's) describe it? CFO dissolving was
the impetus for Anime fandom taking a Do It Yourself stance. There was
no central organization anymore, so everyone had to start making their
own contacts for stuff.
> Again, there were small groups before, but Sy ironically helped
solidify
> those groups into a unified fannish interest. Without people on both
> sides of the continent smuggling those tapes in during the 1980's, we
> would never have had the Anime Invasion as we do now.
It's wierd, but in all the conversations I've had with people who were
around during the CFO days, Mark's name was never mentioned. They talked
about Fred a lot, though.
<smile> History's neat that way. Just when you think you've got things
straight, something pokes up out of the ground and makes you re-assess
things.
ka...@my-deja.com
> > Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > ka...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > >
> > > CF9, IMHO, was the best CF overall, although I actually had more
fun
> > at
> > > prior CFs... and ironically, I had the most fun at CF10, including
> > > helping out the best Cabaret we've had in years, eventhough I
think
> > CF10
> > > was not as good a con as past years. I'm wierd that way, I can be
> > > subjective and objective about something. ;3
> >
>
> CF9 was a
> herd of wild horses: dangerous to control, but beautiful to watch move
> on its own. CF10 was a wolf-dog hybrid pup: paws too big, wishing to
> please but at the same time dangerous and unpredicable and not the
> domestic animal its owner thinks it is.
And CF11? How would you characterize that convention?
>
> > >
> >
> >
>
> I suppose in my rapidly-expanding website design I can make a FFFaq
> (FurryFandomFaq) and start tossing information up there...
That would be very helpful. Thank you for offering to do that.
>
>
>Yes, us old fogies all agree that Sy *was* a founder of FurryFandom --
> because he's the one who came up with creating a con, and he's the one
> who went around cons across the country having room parties for folks
to
> watch furry animation and draw, thus the Furry Party was born. Sure,
> there were groups of friends who shared furry stuff prior to this;
heck,
> items we call 'furry' today have been around for millenia if you want
to
> play semantic games. But the *fandom*, the organization of many
people,
> can be traced back to Sy. Whether people like him or not.
>
> The TigersDen, after much research, was concluded to be the oldest of
> the 100% furry BBS systems, and FurNET originated from there, although
> Stormgate Eyrie (Nicolai Shapero's BBS) had a strong hand in the
> organization of the boards going through FurNET. And, in case it's not
> on that timeline of information, the TigersDen was located at the
> Prancing Skiltaire... Mark Merlino's residence, first an apartment and
> then the sprawling house in Garden Grove where he still lives.
>
::nods:: That house is filled with history, and the occupants could
be considered primary sources.
> >
>
> >
>
>
> -- ermine
> ==================================
> home email: KhromatAtInOrbitDotCom
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Kagur
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
> There are times I am tempted on looking over AFF again, and then I
think
> better of it and stay away from there. This is one of those times I
wish
> I had lurked. :3
Don't go. It's really awful in there.
It's not as bad as it was a week or two ago, but I peeked into a random
thread today and within one or two responses it was made more than
abundantly clear that there's Some People Who Just Like To Complain And
Don't Want To Fix Problems So For The Sake Of Your Sanity Please Please
Please Don't Give Them Suggestions On How To Fix Things Because Then
They Won't Have Anything To Complain About.
I read alt.fan.furry, and my first thought was: "AAaaaaiigh!"
I composed a short reply to email to the person, realized it wouldn't do
any good, and just emailed it to myself instead. Maybe I'll write a
journal entry about it or something.
By the way, Jim Doolittle does nice summaries of latest goings-on in
furry fandom (i.e., the important stuff, not all the bickering) on his
webpage at http://www.cornwuff.com It's a nice alternative to AFF if
you wanna get information on what's new. Check it out.
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Anthrofurry Infocenter:
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
dji...@my-deja.com
In article <8o3s5m$9qr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ka...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8o3m9n$2bq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > CF9 was a herd of wild horses: dangerous to control, but beautiful
> > to watch move on its own. CF10 was a wolf-dog hybrid pup: paws too
> > big, wishing to please but at the same time dangerous and
> > unpredicable and not the domestic animal its owner thinks it is.
>
> And CF11? How would you characterize that convention?
A meeting of the Iowa branch of the Four-H Club. Or mayhaps Kansas.
Whichever is more dull.
Khromat
Andrija Popovic <vu...@erols.com> wrote:
> In article <8o3m9n$2bq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Yes, us old fogies all agree that Sy *was* a founder of FurryFandom
--
> > because he's the one who came up with creating a con, and he's the
one
> > who went around cons across the country having room parties for
folks
> to
> > watch furry animation and draw, thus the Furry Party was born.
Sure,
> > there were groups of friends who shared furry stuff prior to this;
> heck,
> > items we call 'furry' today have been around for millenia if you
want
> to
> > play semantic games. But the *fandom*, the organization of many
> people,
> > can be traced back to Sy. Whether people like him or not.
>
> Anime fandom traces it's roots, not to a single person, but to Fred
> Patten's CFO! :)
As I mention on another part of this thread, CFO was founded by Sy, not
Fred. I was there when he handed over the reigns to Fred. :3
-- ermine
==================================
home email: KhromatAtInOrbitDotCom
Andrija Popovic
Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Yes, us old fogies all agree that Sy *was* a founder of
FurryFandom
> --
> > > because he's the one who came up with creating a con, and he's the
> one
> > > who went around cons across the country having room parties for
> folks
> > to
> > > watch furry animation and draw, thus the Furry Party was born.
> Sure,
> > > there were groups of friends who shared furry stuff prior to this;
> > heck,
> > > items we call 'furry' today have been around for millenia if you
> want
> > to
> > > play semantic games. But the *fandom*, the organization of many
> > people,
> > > can be traced back to Sy. Whether people like him or not.
> >
> > Anime fandom traces it's roots, not to a single person, but to Fred
> > Patten's CFO! :)
>
not
> Fred. I was there when he handed over the reigns to Fred. :3
Please see the other post for my eyes bugging out. ^_^ As you can tell,
I read this one first.
> -- ermine
Andy
Khromat
> > Again, there were small groups before, but Sy ironically helped
> solidify
> > those groups into a unified fannish interest. Without people on both
> > sides of the continent smuggling those tapes in during the 1980's,
we
> > would never have had the Anime Invasion as we do now.
>
> It's wierd, but in all the conversations I've had with people who were
> around during the CFO days, Mark's name was never mentioned. They
talked
> about Fred a lot, though.
>
> <smile> History's neat that way. Just when you think you've got things
> straight, something pokes up out of the ground and makes you re-assess
> things.
Yea, but had any of your Otakon friend every ask *Fred*? ;3
If I Remember Right, Fred took over in 1983... Sy didn't want to deal
with the organization of far-flung chapters and Fred was always good at
that kind of management. I met that whole crew in 1981, you see,when Sy
was bringing anime for Rod O'Riley's little highschool science
fiction/fantasy club, which I ran into in my freshman year. ;3
Now that I've dated myself..... the point here really is "History is
Written By The Victors". Sy may have started CFO, but Fred got it to
flourish, so I've no doubt many anime groups that sprang out of the old
CFO only know Fred's name. Pretty much only the folks who had direct
contact with Sy (the Orange County, LA, and NYC chapters... possibly a
few more) know/remember that Sy was the initial organizer.
-- ermine
==================================
home email: KhromatAtInOrbitDotCom
Khromat
Hey, thanks for the link! I keep forgetting the cornwuff -- or losing my
bookmarks, I can't remember now. ;3
Khromat
> [I kept out of this discussion, but I couldn't pass this one up...]
>
> In article <8o3s5m$9qr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > In article <8o3m9n$2bq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > to watch move on its own. CF10 was a wolf-dog hybrid pup: paws too
> > > big, wishing to please but at the same time dangerous and
> > > unpredicable and not the domestic animal its owner thinks it is.
> >
>
> A meeting of the Iowa branch of the Four-H Club. Or mayhaps Kansas.
> Whichever is more dull.
Oh, all my previous comments about CF10 were meant to be CF11, sorry...
CF10 was a beached whale and a disaster for me, thank you. :p
Andrija Popovic
Khromat <khr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Again, there were small groups before, but Sy ironically helped
> > solidify
> > > those groups into a unified fannish interest. Without people on
both
> > > sides of the continent smuggling those tapes in during the 1980's,
> we
> > > would never have had the Anime Invasion as we do now.
> >
> > It's wierd, but in all the conversations I've had with people who
were
> > around during the CFO days, Mark's name was never mentioned. They
> talked
> > about Fred a lot, though.
> >
> > <smile> History's neat that way. Just when you think you've got
things
> > straight, something pokes up out of the ground and makes you
re-assess
> > things.
>
> Yea, but had any of your Otakon friend every ask *Fred*? ;3
Again, I'm not sure. I've always taken it as given that they at least
spoke to Fred during the CFO days. Another question to ask.
> If I Remember Right, Fred took over in 1983... Sy didn't want to deal
> with the organization of far-flung chapters and Fred was always good
at
> that kind of management. I met that whole crew in 1981, you see,when
Sy
> was bringing anime for Rod O'Riley's little highschool science
> fiction/fantasy club, which I ran into in my freshman year. ;3
<chuckle> So, what did he bring in?
> Now that I've dated myself..... the point here really is "History is
> Written By The Victors". Sy may have started CFO, but Fred got it to
> flourish, so I've no doubt many anime groups that sprang out of the
old
> CFO only know Fred's name. Pretty much only the folks who had direct
> contact with Sy (the Orange County, LA, and NYC chapters... possibly a
> few more) know/remember that Sy was the initial organizer.
While I'm not sure if there are any victors in this story (most current
anime fans would blink in confusion if you mentioned Fred's name), it
does prove that history is not a fixed, set thing. It's organic, growing
and changing as new facts come to light, or things are seen in a
different perspective.
And my friends were from the Philly and Maryland areas, so they probably
knew Fred and only Fred. As far as they new, Fred did found CFO. At
least, the CFO that got them started.
> -- ermine
Andrija
--
Andrija Popovic
vu...@erols.com
Andrija Popovic
Jim's got a great site and does a bang-up job of keeping it updated. I
love Fuzzy Logic and jump there when the next issue hits.
Oh, and as if by wierd chance, the latest news item is about Furry
Fandom's history and legacy. He's got a blurb on the Anthro Fandom
Repository that FC's parent group is starting.