Why buy a repro?
ken...@my-deja.com
cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on the
subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour over
the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing is
usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I shouldn't
really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
Ken @ Aero
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ken...@my-deja.com
around 500-600 US$. I might not be looking in the right places but I
don't think they exist anymore. I like the A-2s because I look at a
picture and say to myself "I wish I had that jacket" and the closest I
can come is one of the repros. I hope that through years of wear and
tear my repro comes close to looking like the ones I see and admire in
the pics. I am probably the odd man here as I am not a WWII buff or
collecter. I just like the jackets!
Kenal0
tc...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF Baseball
> cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on the
> subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour over
> the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing is
> usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
shouldn't
> really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
>
> Ken @ Aero
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
I just sold my skyline Ma-1 on e-bay.
I did put a REPRODUCTION to tell people this is NOT vintage!
For nylon jackets it's more difficult to tell it's real or repro!
It all depends on the label! ( maybe Japanese cutting can tell!)
ken...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8krtig$jsu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF Baseball
> > cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on the
> > subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour over
> > the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing
is
> > usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
> shouldn't
> > really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
> >
> > Ken @ Aero
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> around 500-600 US$. I might not be looking in the right places but I
> don't think they exist anymore. I like the A-2s because I look at a
> picture and say to myself "I wish I had that jacket" and the closest I
> can come is one of the repros. I hope that through years of wear and
> tear my repro comes close to looking like the ones I see and admire in
> the pics. I am probably the odd man here as I am not a WWII buff or
> collecter. I just like the jackets!
> Kenal0
I think you may have been unlucky in your search for an original, for
$600 or so they are around, not often though.
Still thats a good answer , Ken, its refreshing to hear from someone
who appreciates a good jacket for what it is..... just a good leather
jacket, not a ticket to Fantasy Island!!! .
It was the avid collector and "stitch for stitch" buyer I most
interested in hearing from however
ken_b...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF Baseball
> cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on the
> subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour over
> the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing is
> usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
shouldn't
> really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
>
> Ken @ Aero
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Ken, I checked out that auction, and I think that the seller is being
very clever by never actually saying that it's an ORIGINAL WWII issue
cap. That doesn't mean that it isn't, but from his wording I wouldn't
be certin, and from the photo it's impossible to tell.
You raise a valid question, and one that I, as a collector of both
original and reproduction flying jackets, caps and gloves get asked
often. The answer Ken, is out of respect, respect for these rare
originals, and also respect to future generations. I don't think anyone
would argue that there is a very limited number of original flying
jackets that still exist in truely wearable condition. This is
especially true of the shearling RAF and bomber type jackets. When you
wear an original you can't help but add to it's deterioration. In time
it will become just another worn out jacket that has lost most of its
original beauty as well as its value to future collectors and
researchers. The world is full of improperly preserved, stiff, cracked
and flaking original jackets (if you don't believe me just spend a
month watching eBay. There's one nice jacket to every five or six worn
out ones). Most collectors have realized that if preserving the good
ones is ever going to happon, it's got to start now and with them. This
is not like vintage car collecting, where the reproductions bear little
resembelence in look or feel to an original. With flying jackets it's
possible for someone to truely appreciate all of that feel and look
without ever sacrificing a rare original. A good comparison would be
flying WWII aircraft. I used to say "yes, definately give me the chance
to see them in the air," but with all of the crashes that are taking
place now on an annual basis I can no longer, with a clear conscience,
say this. Every plane that crashes diminishes us and denies our
children the chance to ever see it at all. I'd now rather that my son
have the chance to see a Bf-109 sitting in a museum, than have had the
chance to see one fly that later crashed and was lost forever. Charles
at HPA tells the story of how the last known "first version" B-3, with
natural hide and zippered sleeves, continued to be worn by its owner as
a motorcycle jacket until now all that is left of it are some scraps
and one of the sleeves. Not only is it lost forever, but not enough
exists to ever make an accurate reproduction. Unlike vintage cars, a
really worn out jacket has virtually no hope of being restored to
original condition, and even if you could it would end up being
indistinguishable from a reproduction anyway. Like the warplanes these
jackets were not designed to last forever. Shearling especially will
deteriorate over time, becoming brittle and seperating. That's just the
nature of animal skins. Even horsehide will become stiff unless
carefully and continually maintained. If your going to go to all that
trouble why wreck it by wearing it? I'm talking on another thread right
now about how in the Air Force Museum Jimmy Stewart's original A-2 has
developed a serious mildew problem, and they're a professional museum!!
No, Ken. The reprodutions are a wonderful thing. They give us the
opportunity to enjoy a brand new A-2, just as pilots graduating from
basic flight training did on those proud days fifty years ago, without
sacrificing that same thrill to future generations. Everyone who
appreciates the history of flight owes you and others who make these
fantastic reproductions a debt of thanks for giving us that chance, and
taking away the temptation to do something truely stupid.
Ken Bigcat
tc...@my-deja.com
If I am not just collected these babies also I want to wear it the
repro became my only choice! Finding a right size is very difficult! (
except 38,40,42 maybe). For nylon jacket produced around 80S you still
have problem to get one! Don't even mention the WWII leather jacket!
Thanks RMJP/Richard I finally got a CWU-36P with bi-back! Also for
nylon jacket the reproduction almost can follow the exact spec. back to
the original so why don't buy the repro when you could not find one.
For me the happiness come from wearing not collecting! It's not true
for every one!
ken...@my-deja.com
ken_b...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8krtig$jsu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF Baseball
> > cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on the
> > subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour over
> > the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing
is
> > usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
> shouldn't
> > really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
> >
> > Ken @ Aero
> >
> very clever by never actually saying that it's an ORIGINAL WWII issue
> cap. That doesn't mean that it isn't, but from his wording I wouldn't
> be certin, and from the photo it's impossible to tell.
I can't pretend to know anything useful as regards these caps.
> You raise a valid question, and one that I, as a collector of both
> original and reproduction flying jackets, caps and gloves get asked
> often. The answer Ken, is out of respect, respect for these rare
> originals, and also respect to future generations. I don't think
anyone
> would argue that there is a very limited number of original flying
> jackets that still exist in truely wearable condition. This is
> especially true of the shearling RAF and bomber type jackets. When you
> wear an original you can't help but add to it's deterioration. In time
> it will become just another worn out jacket that has lost most of its
> original beauty as well as its value to future collectors and
> researchers.
I agree with you as regards sheepskins, my wife wrecked an original
8thAF painted front ANJ4 with just such overwear back in the early 80's
The world is full of improperly preserved, stiff, cracked
> and flaking original jackets (if you don't believe me just spend a
> month watching eBay.
This is one of my points of dispute. I believe leather jackets, like
vintage cars need to be used, not every day, but with restraint and
respect to keep them supple, far better than storing them away, or than
drowning them in oils, the best of which we have found is Proberts
Neats Foot Oil.In the days when we dealt in these in huge volumes we
often bought an A2 back to life with a treatment of neats foot oil and
a few weeks wear, just to bring the movement back into the leather, yes
the stitching did go sometimes, but this is a very easy job for an
expert to fix, using all the original stitch holes is fairly easy so
long as the machinist takes care,.
There's one nice jacket to every five or six worn
> out ones). Most collectors have realized that if preserving the good
> ones is ever going to happon, it's got to start now and with them.
This
> is not like vintage car collecting, where the reproductions bear
little
> resembelence in look or feel to an original.
You've not seen the best AC Cobra's then, I had an dogearred 289
origial that was always being accused of being fake, even looked fake
next to one particular US repro and there are one or two replica Aston
Martin DB3's and Jaguar XKSS's around that are the "dogs danglers"
With flying jackets it's
> possible for someone to truely appreciate all of that feel and look
> without ever sacrificing a rare original. A good comparison would be
> flying WWII aircraft. I used to say "yes, definately give me the
chance
> to see them in the air," but with all of the crashes that are taking
> place now on an annual basis I can no longer, with a clear conscience,
> say this. Every plane that crashes diminishes us and denies our
> children the chance to ever see it at all. I'd now rather that my son
> have the chance to see a Bf-109 sitting in a museum, than have had the
> chance to see one fly that later crashed and was lost forever. Charles
> at HPA tells the story of how the last known "first version" B-3, with
> natural hide and zippered sleeves, continued to be worn by its owner
as
> a motorcycle jacket until now all that is left of it are some scraps
> and one of the sleeves.
To my eternal emarrasment, I let one of those pass thru my hands in the
1970's not being too sure what it was, the label was missing, my only
defence, it's probably still in the UK, I've no idea who bought it,
sadly, I've made worse cock ups than that, "a mink coat for a £10
note!!!!!" Oh the errors of youth!! It was years later when I saw the
photo of the 3 fliers by the prop in their brand new B3's that the
penny dropped (UK Expression for realised)
Not only is it lost forever, but not enough
> exists to ever make an accurate reproduction.
Chas should have dug deep in his wallet and preserved a bit of history,
everyone has their price jacket wise.
Unlike vintage cars, a
> really worn out jacket has virtually no hope of being restored to
> original condition, and even if you could it would end up being
> indistinguishable from a reproduction anyway.
Depends how bad, there are a couple of jackets in McQuire's book that
were in a very sorry state when I first got them
Like the warplanes these
> jackets were not designed to last forever. Shearling especially will
> deteriorate over time, becoming brittle and seperating. That's just
the
> nature of animal skins. Even horsehide will become stiff unless
> carefully and continually maintained. If your going to go to all that
> trouble why wreck it by wearing it? I'm talking on another thread
right
> now about how in the Air Force Museum Jimmy Stewart's original A-2 has
> developed a serious mildew problem, and they're a professional
museum!!
This is my argument about wearing them from time to time.
> No, Ken. The reprodutions are a wonderful thing. They give us the
> opportunity to enjoy a brand new A-2, just as pilots graduating from
> basic flight training did on those proud days fifty years ago, without
> sacrificing that same thrill to future generations. Everyone who
> appreciates the history of flight owes you and others who make these
> fantastic reproductions a debt of thanks for giving us that chance,
and
> taking away the temptation to do something truely stupid.
> Ken Bigcat
>
I'm the last one to stop people buying "new" priod clothing, hell we
could kit you out head to toe in brand new 1940's or 1950's clothing!
What I can't understand is the oneswho buy the expensive "stitch for
stitch" warts and all repros, when the same money would buy an original
of the copy. You obviously understand vintage cars, would you pay the
same price for a "perfect replica" XKSS as you would for the slightly
dog eared real deal???? No me neither. I only wear new A2's to "road
test" our product, but I do leave time for the real thing.
Ken @ Aero
stringf...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8kscem$so8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8krtig$jsu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF
Baseball
> > > cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on
the
> > > subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour
over
> > > the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing
> is
> > > usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
> > shouldn't
> > > really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
> > >
> > > Ken @ Aero
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> > around 500-600 US$. I might not be looking in the right places but I
> > don't think they exist anymore. I like the A-2s because I look at a
> > picture and say to myself "I wish I had that jacket" and the
closest I
> > can come is one of the repros. I hope that through years of wear and
> > tear my repro comes close to looking like the ones I see and admire
in
> > the pics. I am probably the odd man here as I am not a WWII buff or
> > collecter. I just like the jackets!
> > Kenal0
>
> I think you may have been unlucky in your search for an original, for
> $600 or so they are around, not often though.
> Still thats a good answer , Ken, its refreshing to hear from someone
> who appreciates a good jacket for what it is..... just a good leather
> jacket, not a ticket to Fantasy Island!!! .
> It was the avid collector and "stitch for stitch" buyer I most
> interested in hearing from however
>
>
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
My love for leather jackets stems from way back when I was a kid and my
facination with airplanes. I immersed myself in everything aviation;
airshows, scale models (which I still build to this day). Then came
Jeff Clyman's "The Cockpit" catalog one day in the mail, which had
several original photographs of WWII flyboys in leather A-2's. That
was it, I was hooked from then on. Then there was that TV show that
came on in the early 80's I think, "Tales of the Gold Monkey", which
still comes on TVLAND on the weekends. Jake Cutter was an ex-flying
tiger and had the coolest A-2 with the Blood Chit on the back, though I
never can figure out why he wears it in the middle of the steamy
jungles of the south pacific!
I used to be a stitch-for-stitch person, but now I don't let those
picky details detract from the overall jacket. I'm not saying that the
details aren't important, I just don't let them detract from the jacket
as a whole.
Stuart (yes I know...) hit the nail on the head with what he had on his
site, if it's still there, "fashion is fleeting, style is forever" or
something to that effect. The leather jacket will never go out of
style.
Timbo
A2's) for the same price as the best repros (Japan imports don't
count), that would mean original A2's are being offered in good
condition, in sizes applicable to forum members (I'm a 42) in the $500-
600 range? Marc, do you know about this?!
--
Tim
ken...@my-deja.com
> >
> Ken, I'm wondering where you are finding original jackets (especially
> A2's) for the same price as the best repros (Japan imports don't
> count), that would mean original A2's are being offered in good
> condition, in sizes applicable to forum members (I'm a 42) in the
$500-
> 600 range? Marc, do you know about this?!
>
From under your noses in the US of A, we just bought a beauty arrived
last week, a very early Dubow 40"with a collar stand, totally untouches
save for squadron patch removed many moons ago, very nice nick $340 a
few stitches here and there is all thats needed
If I can find them from here, thers no excuse for you yanks!
Ken @Aero
swing...@my-deja.com
> This is one of my points of dispute. I believe leather jackets, like
> vintage cars need to be used, not every day, but with restraint and
> respect to keep them supple, far better than storing them away, or
than
> drowning them in oils, the best of which we have found is Proberts
> Neats Foot Oil.In the days when we dealt in these in huge volumes we
> often bought an A2 back to life with a treatment of neats foot oil and
> a few weeks wear, just to bring the movement back into the leather,
yes
> the stitching did go sometimes, but this is a very easy job for an
> expert to fix, using all the original stitch holes is fairly easy so
> long as the machinist takes care,.
>
Sure, the leather can take the wear, but what about the wool and cotton
elements? And the zipper? These parts of the jacket are easier to
damage and wear, than the hides. I don't want to spend a large amount
of money on a jacket (that is an important part of our history), just
to wear it into the ground.
swing...@my-deja.com
> could kit you out head to toe in brand new 1940's or 1950's clothing!
> What I can't understand is the oneswho buy the expensive "stitch for
> stitch" warts and all repros,
If you have to ask, you'll never know...
Some people (myself included) want a reproduction A-2 that is as close
as possible to the originals. Why? I just do.
>when the same money would buy an original of the copy.
the originals that cost the same as good repros, are in pretty sad
state, and will take an extra investment of money, to be put in
presentable shape.
I don't want to look good at the expense of a peice of history.
Timbo
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > Ken, I'm wondering where you are finding original jackets
(especially
> > A2's) for the same price as the best repros (Japan imports don't
> > count), that would mean original A2's are being offered in good
> > condition, in sizes applicable to forum members (I'm a 42) in the
> $500-
> > 600 range? Marc, do you know about this?!
> >
arrived
> last week, a very early Dubow 40"with a collar stand, totally
untouches
> save for squadron patch removed many moons ago, very nice nick $340 a
> few stitches here and there is all thats needed
>
> If I can find them from here, thers no excuse for you yanks!
>
> Ken @Aero
>
rarity...I gave up on looking for original jackets years ago when it
seemed that every seller thought that any sort of old-looking leather
flight jacket was original and rare and valuable which was ridiculous,
though I did pick up a few nice G-1's...but the A2's were way too
expensive and seem to have gotten worse. Anyway, if I did come across a
nice one, it would have to be in great shape and then I wouldn't want
to wear it much anyway. The idea of buying an original and then
repairing it so I can wear it doesn't really make sense to me but
that's just my opinion. I approach a repro as a great way to replicate
the most stylish and practical jackets ever made; but I never wear them
thinking they are historical artifacts of great value. They can be some
damn fine jackets though....and I would never wear anything else
because I don't think any other design has ever captured such greatness
as the American flight jackets of WW2 and the Korean conflict era. That
said, my goal is always to come as close to the originals as possible,
and every detail is indeed important as is the overall feel and fit and
comfort of the garment too. I think the (better) repros are great and
an excellent alternative to wearing an original. Thanks. Hope this on
goes thru.
brad...@my-deja.com
repro. That is support for the reasoning that we all do not eat the
same food - drink the same drink - marry the same type of female. I
have had numerous customers ask for a repro ( such as mine) and wear it
in preference to the current issued A-2 by the Air Force. One factor to
consider - don't purchase from anyone unless they guarantee refund and
stipulate as to the origin of skins -location of labor plant - etc. in
other words is it US in toto or foreign? Keep up the dialogue - Brad -
Bradley Associates - [producer of great repros!!!!!)
you have to ask, you'll never know...
>
> Some people (myself included) want a reproduction A-2 that is as close
> as possible to the originals. Why? I just do.
>
> >when the same money would buy an original of the copy.
>
> the originals that cost the same as good repros, are in pretty sad
> state, and will take an extra investment of money, to be put in
> presentable shape.
>
> I don't want to look good at the expense of a peice of history.
>
MarcW
Timbo <timbo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Ken, I'm wondering where you are finding original jackets (especially
> A2's) for the same price as the best repros (Japan imports don't
> count), that would mean original A2's are being offered in good
> condition, in sizes applicable to forum members (I'm a 42) in the
$500-
> 600 range? Marc, do you know about this?!
>
I don't doubt that they are out there to be had if you have right
connections and a tireless commitment to looking for them. Not all
A-2's are yet in the hands of dealers and collectors. Some are still
in the attics of the original owners or their families, or other folks
who don't know what the market will truly bring. As much as I love
A-2's, I've never committed myself to finding these. Maybe you need
to slip some money to the guy in the Goodwill trailer, or maybe you
need to get on the waiting list behind the other fifty guys who've
slipped him $$$. Time is money, too, so it's easier to pay the big
bucks on Manion's or Ebay to whoever is doing the selling at market
prices just to save the time and effort of the hunt.
- Marc
gm...@my-deja.com
MarcW <ma...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8kt36a$buv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Timbo <timbo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
(especially
> > A2's) for the same price as the best repros (Japan imports don't
> > count), that would mean original A2's are being offered in good
> > condition, in sizes applicable to forum members (I'm a 42) in the
> $500-
> > 600 range? Marc, do you know about this?!
> >
>
> connections and a tireless commitment to looking for them. Not all
> A-2's are yet in the hands of dealers and collectors. Some are still
> in the attics of the original owners or their families, or other folks
> who don't know what the market will truly bring. As much as I love
> A-2's, I've never committed myself to finding these. Maybe you need
> to slip some money to the guy in the Goodwill trailer, or maybe you
> need to get on the waiting list behind the other fifty guys who've
> slipped him $$$. Time is money, too, so it's easier to pay the big
> bucks on Manion's or Ebay to whoever is doing the selling at market
> prices just to save the time and effort of the hunt.
>
> - Marc
>
clothing stores. Not always easy to find, of course, but they do show
up along with P-coats, nylon flight jackets and that sort of thing...
chances are usually good that the store owner doesn't know what they
have... yet sometmes they do and price acordingly. I've seen nylon
flight jackets - usually much too small for me and I have seen A2s in
both a San Francisco vintage clothing store and a Santa Cruz clothing
store. I've never been interested in collecting the real deals... so I
didn't pay too much attention to them, but I do know the one in Santa
Cruz was an Aero. Those of you that live in large metro areas should
check out the vintage clothing stores... kinda fun if you view it as a
treasure hunt of sorts.
ken_b...@my-deja.com
The sheepskin jackets are perticularly susceptible to damage from wear.
While I agree that wearing an original A-2 for short periods may help
maintain the shape of the leather, sadly, few would stop there. Any
time you really WEAR a piece of vintage clothing you are also WEARING
IT OUT. Like it or not, damage will take place. And for most of these
rare jackets it's really not worth the risk. That's why reproductions
are such a wonderful thing.
> The world is full of improperly preserved, stiff, cracked
> > and flaking original jackets (if you don't believe me just spend a
> > month watching eBay.
>
> This is one of my points of dispute. I believe leather jackets, like
> vintage cars need to be used, not every day, but with restraint and
> respect to keep them supple, far better than storing them away, or
than
> drowning them in oils, the best of which we have found is Proberts
> Neats Foot Oil.In the days when we dealt in these in huge volumes we
> often bought an A2 back to life with a treatment of neats foot oil and
> a few weeks wear, just to bring the movement back into the leather,
yes
> the stitching did go sometimes, but this is a very easy job for an
> expert to fix, using all the original stitch holes is fairly easy so
> long as the machinist takes care,.
Again, wearing something with restraint is a very optimistic thought.
How do you know ahead of time when it's going to catch on a stray nail,
or protect your elbow in a fall? Most people would wear it just one
time too many, then it's too late.
> There's one nice jacket to every five or six worn
> > out ones). Most collectors have realized that if preserving the good
> > ones is ever going to happon, it's got to start now and with them.
> This
> > is not like vintage car collecting, where the reproductions bear
> little
> > resembelence in look or feel to an original.
>
> You've not seen the best AC Cobra's then, I had an dogearred 289
> origial that was always being accused of being fake, even looked fake
> next to one particular US repro and there are one or two replica Aston
> Martin DB3's and Jaguar XKSS's around that are the "dogs danglers"
Actually I know the reproduction AC's very well. Over on this side of
the ocean it's the 428 that everyone wants, though in my opinion the
289 is a much better handeling and performing machine. But in either
case they're a poor example of what we're talking about here because
they were never complete cars to begin with, just fairly simplistic
bodies with stock Ford engines. A reproduction XKSS that had a BRAND
NEW factory spec engine would be more along these lines, but I find it
hard to believe that anyone could completely REPRODUCE a seventy year
old engine and still make it cost effective. Though if they were, the
XKSS, along with the Mercedes SSK, and the maybe DB3S would get my
vote. I prefer the German cars, but I also know that there's nothing
like an MGTF on a winding road.
If you ever find out, for our sake BUY IT BACK!! Or let me buy it.
According to Charles at HPA the scraps in Michigan are all that remains
of those earliest B-3's. The Air Force Museum had a beautiful example
in storage, but sometime in the 1980's someone stole it.
> Not only is it lost forever, but not enough
> > exists to ever make an accurate reproduction.
>
> Chas should have dug deep in his wallet and preserved a bit of
history,
> everyone has their price jacket wise.
What, buy the scraps? You can't accurately reproduce such a unique
pattern from just a few scraps and a sleeve, and if you know ELC you
know that they'll settle for nothing less then complete accuracy and
perfection.
> Unlike vintage cars, a
> > really worn out jacket has virtually no hope of being restored to
> > original condition, and even if you could it would end up being
> > indistinguishable from a reproduction anyway.
>
> Depends how bad, there are a couple of jackets in McQuire's book that
> were in a very sorry state when I first got them
If you have to replace the leather it just won't be the same.
> Like the warplanes these
> > jackets were not designed to last forever. Shearling especially will
> > deteriorate over time, becoming brittle and seperating. That's just
> the
> > nature of animal skins. Even horsehide will become stiff unless
> > carefully and continually maintained. If your going to go to all
that
> > trouble why wreck it by wearing it? I'm talking on another thread
> right
> > now about how in the Air Force Museum Jimmy Stewart's original A-2
has
> > developed a serious mildew problem, and they're a professional
> museum!!
>
> This is my argument about wearing them from time to time.
On occassion. See above.
> > No, Ken. The reprodutions are a wonderful thing. They give us the
> > opportunity to enjoy a brand new A-2, just as pilots graduating from
> > basic flight training did on those proud days fifty years ago,
without
> > sacrificing that same thrill to future generations. Everyone who
> > appreciates the history of flight owes you and others who make these
> > fantastic reproductions a debt of thanks for giving us that chance,
> and
> > taking away the temptation to do something truely stupid.
> > Ken Bigcat
> >
> I'm the last one to stop people buying "new" priod clothing, hell we
> could kit you out head to toe in brand new 1940's or 1950's clothing!
> What I can't understand is the oneswho buy the expensive "stitch for
> stitch" warts and all repros, when the same money would buy an
original
> of the copy. You obviously understand vintage cars, would you pay the
> same price for a "perfect replica" XKSS as you would for the slightly
> dog eared real deal???? No me neither. I only wear new A2's to "road
> test" our product, but I do leave time for the real thing.
I'm in the majority here in knowing that originals in wearable
condition just can't be bought for $500. If you start looking now, you
might eventually find one at that price after hundreds of hours of
searching, but that's obviously not a viable alternative.
Ken
avg...@my-deja.com
> From under your noses in the US of A, we just bought a beauty arrived
> last week, a very early Dubow 40"with a collar stand, totally untouches
> save for squadron patch removed many moons ago, very nice nick $340 a
> few stitches here and there is all thats needed
>
> If I can find them from here, thers no excuse for you yanks!
>
> Ken @Aero
I might be able to wear a size 40...on one arm. You're forgetting the last
post that asked about sizes that would fit forum members.
AVGFan
aur...@my-deja.com
> cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on the
> subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour over
> the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing is
> usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
shouldn't
> really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
>
> Ken @ Aero
>
I like my Eastman B-1.
Because....
-It is Brand Spanking New
-It is made exactly like the original B-1
-It will last at least as well as the originals
-It will probably last longer because it is constructed with more care
-I don't feel guilty when I run it into the ground
-I don't feel guilty because I'm wearing a pristine museum quality
garment
-I wouldn't know where the original Cap had been!
So far the only decent repro maker I have found is Eastman. I haven't
seen any of your jackets, but I get the impression they aren't
real "stitch nazi" affairs, so I'm not terribly interested. If I
wanted a correctly done "stitch nazi" Aero, I'd get an
Eastman/HPA "bootleg", HAHAHA!
Oh, on a "Faux" Bomber Jacket note. I saw some stores selling lambskin
and cowhide jackets for $325, $428, and $650! I feel sorry for people
that pay those prices! These guys should just buy a flightsuits
cowhide/goatskin/lambsikin A-2 for $250, same thing, with better
materials and construction on the flightsuits to boot!
ken...@my-deja.com
Sorry AVG I have never scoured the photo album to tell what size you
guys are. I'm 5' 10" weigh in at about 160 lbs and wear a 40" A". Its
all in the good Scottish food and plenty exercise!!
ken...@my-deja.com
aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8krtig$jsu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF Baseball
> > cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on the
> > subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour over
> > the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing
is
> > usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
> shouldn't
> > really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
> >
>
> Because....
> -It is Brand Spanking New
> -It is made exactly like the original B-1
> -It will last at least as well as the originals
> -It will probably last longer because it is constructed with more care
> -I don't feel guilty when I run it into the ground
> -I don't feel guilty because I'm wearing a pristine museum quality
> garment
> -I wouldn't know where the original Cap had been!
>
> So far the only decent repro maker I have found is Eastman. I haven't
> seen any of your jackets, but I get the impression they aren't
> real "stitch nazi" affairs, so I'm not terribly interested. If I
> wanted a correctly done "stitch nazi" Aero,
>If its a genuine "stitch for stitch" Aero Beacon Ny jacket it MUST
have some really shitty stitching and a totally crap lining!!
Ken
avg...@my-deja.com
> Sorry AVG I have never scoured the photo album to tell what size you
> guys are. I'm 5' 10" weigh in at about 160 lbs and wear a 40" A". Its
> all in the good Scottish food and plenty exercise!!
>
> Ken @ Aero
Haggis?
5' 11" - 190 lbs - 44/46 - No haggis.
AVGFan
ken...@my-deja.com
>
> Haggis?
>
>
> AVGFan
>
No fear, AVG, Lots of good sea food, fresh salmon, and organic
vegetables, great air and a stress free enviroment. A wonderful holiday
destination , especially with the Edinburgh Festival almost upon us,
very popular with you good folk from the US of A, but do yourselves a
favour, lay of the haggis, have a round or two of golf and try
our "water of life" instead!! and get yourself a jacket when you are
over here!
Ken @ The Scottish Tourist Board!!!
stringf...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8kuuc5$jst$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8krtig$jsu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF
Baseball
> > > cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on
the
> > > subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour
over
> > > the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing
> is
> > > usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
> > shouldn't
> > > really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
> > >
> > > Ken @ Aero
> > >
> >
> > Because....
> > -It is Brand Spanking New
> > -It is made exactly like the original B-1
> > -It will last at least as well as the originals
> > -It will probably last longer because it is constructed with more
care
> > -I don't feel guilty when I run it into the ground
> > -I don't feel guilty because I'm wearing a pristine museum quality
> > garment
> > -I wouldn't know where the original Cap had been!
> >
> > So far the only decent repro maker I have found is Eastman. I
haven't
> > seen any of your jackets, but I get the impression they aren't
> > real "stitch nazi" affairs, so I'm not terribly interested. If I
> > wanted a correctly done "stitch nazi" Aero,
> >Eastman/HPA "bootleg", HAHAHA!
>
> >If its a genuine "stitch for stitch" Aero Beacon Ny jacket it MUST
> have some really shitty stitching and a totally crap lining!!
>
> Ken
>
> Before you buy.
You said it brother. There are a lot of originals out there in decent
condition, but I recently picked out an original Aero in a museum while
back (I assume Aero was the only manuf. to use the red cuffs/waistband)
and it looked the worse for wear. Zip was half gone, cuffs were
shreaded, didn't see any lining. Another poor Dubow couldn't even be
put on a mannequin because it had fallen apart at the seams, they had
to fold it up and put it in a frame. I'm sorry, but 50 years from now
I want my grandkids fightin to wear my Aero.
Charles HPA
stringf...@my-deja.com wrote:
> You said it brother. There are a lot of originals out there in decent
> condition, but I recently picked out an original Aero in a museum while
> back (I assume Aero was the only manuf. to use the red cuffs/waistband)
> and it looked the worse for wear. Zip was half gone, cuffs were
> shreaded, didn't see any lining. Another poor Dubow couldn't even be
> put on a mannequin because it had fallen apart at the seams, they had
> to fold it up and put it in a frame. I'm sorry, but 50 years from now
> I want my grandkids fightin to wear my Aero.
It is *extremely* unlikely that *any* repro A-2 will be put through the
use, as well the neglect and abuse that befell many, if not most, of the
originals. I believe the repros produced by any of the better makers,
and likely the lesser, too, will abound in decent condition 50 years from
now: totally different circumstances surrounding the reasons for the
production of the repros will yield totally different results.
--
Chas.HPA
aur...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8kuuc5$jst$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8krtig$jsu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF
Baseball
> > > cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on
the
> > > subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour
over
> > > the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real thing
> is
> > > usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
> > shouldn't
> > > really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
> > >
> > > Ken @ Aero
> > >
> >
> > Because....
> > -It is Brand Spanking New
> > -It is made exactly like the original B-1
> > -It will last at least as well as the originals
> > -It will probably last longer because it is constructed with more
care
> > -I don't feel guilty when I run it into the ground
> > -I don't feel guilty because I'm wearing a pristine museum quality
> > garment
> > -I wouldn't know where the original Cap had been!
> >
> > So far the only decent repro maker I have found is Eastman. I
haven't
> > seen any of your jackets, but I get the impression they aren't
> > real "stitch nazi" affairs, so I'm not terribly interested. If I
> > wanted a correctly done "stitch nazi" Aero,
> >Eastman/HPA "bootleg", HAHAHA!
>
> >If its a genuine "stitch for stitch" Aero Beacon Ny jacket it MUST
> have some really shitty stitching and a totally crap lining!!
>
> Ken
>
Cotton linings are not crap! And your silk stuff feels like the wool
gabardine A-4 and B-1 vs. some nice wool gabardine trousers! The
patterns don't call for stitching errors, this is the fault of the
individual workers.
If one wants a real "stitch nazi" Aero, you can either buy a tattered
rag or a Genuine Eastman "Bootleg" Aero. Either way the zippers will
be nicer than the current talons.
ken...@my-deja.com
rough wear and tear by wearing it to the office and back. Are you
saying this is different than the wartime use an A-2 gets. Oh by the
way I never hang it up. I always throw it on a chair. I also expose it
to a light drizzle now and then if the weather calls for it.
Kenal0
ken...@my-deja.com
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> > I don't know about that Charles, I put my A-2s through some pretty
> rough wear and tear by wearing it to the office and back. Are you
> saying this is different than the wartime use an A-2 gets. Oh by the
> way I never hang it up. I always throw it on a chair. I also expose it
> to a light drizzle now and then if the weather calls for it.
> Kenal0
>
I treat my replicas as hard as I can....We have tied our jackets up in
string to form a ball, and played football (Soccer) with them on tarmac
to test the leather. Is that rough enough treatment?.
Ken @ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
>
> Cotton linings are not crap!
What I said was that the cotton used by aero Beacon NY was crap, not
all cotton linings. We know they used cotton by testing, and by the
state of the original lining.
And your silk stuff feels like the wool
> gabardine A-4 and B-1 vs. some nice wool gabardine trousers!
Well Marc W, in that case, must know nothing, because he said in his
evaluation, "if he didn't know our linings were silk he would have
mistaken it for fine quality cotton, and can now understand why there
has been so much difficulty in determining which jackets used silk and
which used cotton" not word for word, but very close.I think Marc W.
gave a very fair analysis of the Aero A2, if you honestly think he
can't tell cotton / silk / wool gaberdine apart, well............I'm
speechless! I think you owe him an aplolgy.
The
> patterns don't call for stitching errors, this is the fault of the
> individual workers.
Why then is every Aero Beacon jacket I have ever seen badly stitched?
If the patterns are not cut correctly they CAN cause difficulty in
construction, Aero Beacon patterns, collar excepted however, are very
good. They just employed "monkeys" to sew the damn things.
>
> If one wants a real "stitch nazi" Aero, you can either buy a tattered
> rag or a Genuine Eastman "Bootleg" Aero. Either way the zippers will
> be nicer than the current talons.
The do look nicer than the current Talon zip, I only question the
wisdom of fitting a 60 year old tape to a new horsehide leather jacket,
and as for the "pirate" alloy zips doing the rounds, the
words "Choclate and fireguard" spring to mind!Modern Talon zippers are
the strongest available by far, and also look close enough in puller
style for all but the fanatic.
Do I take it you have no interest in knowing what's really wrong with
the WWII jackets?? The offer still stands my friend.
ken...@my-deja.com
aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8kv9dp$sft$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8kuuc5$jst$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > In article <8krtig$jsu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > I noticed a lot of chat recently on the forum about the AAF
> Baseball
> > > > cap ....OK..... go get the real deal on ebay #378616334, and on
> the
> > > > subject of repros, why DO folk buy a repro WWII item, then pour
> over
> > > > the "authenticity" of the item, A2's included, when the real
thing
> > is
> > > > usually available for similar $$$$$$$$$$$$?? In my business I
> > > shouldn't
> > > > really be asking, but this has always amazed me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > > Before you buy.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Because....
> > > -It is Brand Spanking New
> > > -It is made exactly like the original B-1
> > > -It will last at least as well as the originals
> > > -It will probably last longer because it is constructed with more
> care
> > > -I don't feel guilty when I run it into the ground
> > > -I don't feel guilty because I'm wearing a pristine museum quality
> > > garment
> > > -I wouldn't know where the original Cap had been!
> > >
> > > So far the only decent repro maker I have found is Eastman. I
> haven't
> > > seen any of your jackets, but I get the impression they aren't
> > > real "stitch nazi" affairs, so I'm not terribly interested. If I
> > > wanted a correctly done "stitch nazi" Aero,
> > >Eastman/HPA "bootleg", HAHAHA!
> >
> > >If its a genuine "stitch for stitch" Aero Beacon Ny jacket it
MUST
> > have some really shitty stitching and a totally crap lining!!
> >
> > Ken
> >
> gabardine A-4 and B-1 vs. some nice wool gabardine trousers! The
> patterns don't call for stitching errors, this is the fault of the
> individual workers.
>
> rag or a Genuine Eastman "Bootleg" Aero. Either way the zippers will
> be nicer than the current talons.
Sorry I though I was answering swinglover, hence the last sentance. My
appolgies its getting late over here!
dutchde...@my-deja.com
> all cotton linings. We know they used cotton by testing, and by the
> state of the original lining.
>
> > gabardine A-4 and B-1 vs. some nice wool gabardine trousers!
>
> evaluation, "if he didn't know our linings were silk he would have
> mistaken it for fine quality cotton, and can now understand why there
> has been so much difficulty in determining which jackets used silk and
> which used cotton" not word for word, but very close.I think Marc W.
> gave a very fair analysis of the Aero A2, if you honestly think he
> can't tell cotton / silk / wool gaberdine apart, well............I'm
> speechless! I think you owe him an aplolgy.
>
> > patterns don't call for stitching errors, this is the fault of the
> > individual workers.
>
> If the patterns are not cut correctly they CAN cause difficulty in
> construction, Aero Beacon patterns, collar excepted however, are very
> good. They just employed "monkeys" to sew the damn things.
>
> >
tattered
> > rag or a Genuine Eastman "Bootleg" Aero. Either way the zippers
will
> > be nicer than the current talons.
>
> wisdom of fitting a 60 year old tape to a new horsehide leather
jacket,
> and as for the "pirate" alloy zips doing the rounds, the
> words "Choclate and fireguard" spring to mind!Modern Talon zippers are
> the strongest available by far, and also look close enough in puller
> style for all but the fanatic.
> Do I take it you have no interest in knowing what's really wrong with
> the WWII jackets?? The offer still stands my friend.
>
>
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
I've just stumbled onto this forum after surfing the net, looking for--
and finding, to my great joy--the manufacturer of the best repro
leather jackets I've ever found: Aero. Didn't expect to find learned
discussions about the alchemy of Talon zippers or other such arcane
matters--I thought this would be a forum full of expresions of
enthusiasm for great craftsmanship. I guess discussions about hide and
zippers may fall into that category, but to try and put things back on
a more general track, I'd like to say a word about Aero. I discovered
the company by accident in a store on Boston's Newbury Street, where I
bought a magnificent motorcycle jacket. Thje weight and design and
manufacture were as near perfect as I could imagine. Over the
intervening years, I've acquired four--no, five--more Aero jackets,
including a very fine Irvin repro and jacket they call "The
Highwayman." Each and every one wears like iron and, after a
pleasurable break-in period, fits and feels like a second skin. Great
stuff. It's a treat to learn about all these other companies, but the
gentlemen who seems to represent Aero here--is he the owner?--makes a
fine case for his product that is only exceeded by its quality. Thanks
for listening, and, to everyone on the forum, thanks for sharing all
your expertise.
Charles HPA
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I don't know about that Charles, I put my A-2s through some pretty
> rough wear and tear by wearing it to the office and back. Are you
> saying this is different than the wartime use an A-2 gets. Oh by the
> way I never hang it up. I always throw it on a chair. I also expose it
> to a light drizzle now and then if the weather calls for it.
> Kenal0
Egads, man! Is your travel to and from work as bad as sweating through a
six-hour raid to Rabaul in a B-25 at low altitude, then stripping,
cleaning and oiling your .50 cals. when you return? I still don't think
the typical use any of us gives their A-2's is equal to that of a combat
aircrewman, but if you read my prior posting, that isn't the only point I
made. How about over 50 years of neglect and abuse? After last wearing
our jackets to paint the house and clear sticker bushes in one's yard,
are we going to leave them unattended for 40 or more years in damp, musty
and smelly basements with a leaking lead pipe overhead, or sitting out in
the open in front of sun-drenched windows in hot, dusty attics, or
hanging on a rust-caked nail in insect-infested barns that are exposed to
all the volatile seasonal changes? These scenarios are typical of how
many A-2's were kept after the war, as related to me by those who wore
them first.
--
Chas.HPA
AeroLthrUSA
> > > Before you buy.
> > >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>
-
> and finding, to my great joy--the manufacturer of the best repro
> leather jackets I've ever found: Aero. Didn't expect to find learned
> discussions about the alchemy of Talon zippers or other such arcane
> matters--I thought this would be a forum full of expresions of
> enthusiasm for great craftsmanship. I guess discussions about hide and
> zippers may fall into that category, but to try and put things back on
> a more general track, I'd like to say a word about Aero. I discovered
> the company by accident in a store on Boston's Newbury Street, where I
> bought a magnificent motorcycle jacket. Thje weight and design and
> manufacture were as near perfect as I could imagine. Over the
> intervening years, I've acquired four--no, five--more Aero jackets,
> including a very fine Irvin repro and jacket they call "The
> Highwayman." Each and every one wears like iron and, after a
> pleasurable break-in period, fits and feels like a second skin. Great
> stuff. It's a treat to learn about all these other companies, but the
> gentlemen who seems to represent Aero here--is he the owner?--makes a
> fine case for his product that is only exceeded by its quality. Thanks
> for listening, and, to everyone on the forum, thanks for sharing all
> your expertise.
>
grounds (Berklee Music College)! Puts a smile on my face just thinking
about it! Thanks and welcome to the forum!
Mark
--
Mark Moye
Aero Leather USA
AeroL...@aol.com
aur...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Cotton linings are not crap!
>
> What I said was that the cotton used by aero Beacon NY was crap, not
> all cotton linings. We know they used cotton by testing, and by the
> state of the original lining.
Crap by what standard? If it disintegrated after a few hundred
missions, that's crap I'd like to have.
>
> And your silk stuff feels like the wool
> > gabardine A-4 and B-1 vs. some nice wool gabardine trousers!
>
> Well Marc W, in that case, must know nothing, because he said in his
> evaluation, "if he didn't know our linings were silk he would have
> mistaken it for fine quality cotton, and can now understand why there
> has been so much difficulty in determining which jackets used silk and
> which used cotton" not word for word, but very close.I think Marc W.
> gave a very fair analysis of the Aero A2, if you honestly think he
> can't tell cotton / silk / wool gaberdine apart, well............I'm
> speechless! I think you owe him an aplolgy.
>
I was comparing your silk to fine silk, using the wool gabardine A-4
vs. a nice pair of wool pants as an example. You unintentionally
misinterpreted.
> The
> > patterns don't call for stitching errors, this is the fault of the
> > individual workers.
>
> Why then is every Aero Beacon jacket I have ever seen badly stitched?
> If the patterns are not cut correctly they CAN cause difficulty in
> construction, Aero Beacon patterns, collar excepted however, are very
> good. They just employed "monkeys" to sew the damn things.
>
Exactly!
> >
> > If one wants a real "stitch nazi" Aero, you can either buy a
tattered
> > rag or a Genuine Eastman "Bootleg" Aero. Either way the zippers
will
> > be nicer than the current talons.
>
> The do look nicer than the current Talon zip, I only question the
> wisdom of fitting a 60 year old tape to a new horsehide leather
jacket,
Why?
> and as for the "pirate" alloy zips doing the rounds, the
> words "Choclate and fireguard" spring to mind!Modern Talon zippers are
> the strongest available by far, and also look close enough in puller
> style for all but the fanatic.
> (Quippy Comeback meant to get a rise outta swing' deleted.)
>
> Ken @ Aero
The modern talons aren't anything like the old talons, they feel cheap
and slide like crud. I question the wisdom of putting one of those on
a jacket vs. a much nicer "pirate." The Asian bootleg talon isn't a
real talon, but the current talon isn't even a real talon by 1940's
standards. Modern talons have the brand name and that's about all they
can one up the pirate zips on.
Charles HPA
aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> The modern talons aren't anything like the old talons, they feel cheap
> and slide like crud. I question the wisdom of putting one of those on
> a jacket vs. a much nicer "pirate." The Asian bootleg talon isn't a
> real talon, but the current talon isn't even a real talon by 1940's
> standards. Modern talons have the brand name and that's about all they
> can one up the pirate zips on.
>
I'd like to clear up the misuse of the derogatory words used to describe
the repro Talon zips utilized by RMNZ, RMJP and ELC. The word choices,
both "pirate" and "bootleg," are those selected and used by two rival
competitors on their respective company web sites, and are meant to
mislead the public into thinking that such repro zips are somehow
inferior and/or illegal; neither could be further from the truth. Not
only do these zips function better than what Talon currently produces, as
Aurang has correctly pointed out, but they are produced by the noted
jacket makers with Talon's full blessings, since Talon has no interest in
so doing. The former president of Talon, Mr. Stephen Zambito, authorized
ELC to source and produce true 1940's Talon-marked zips in the early
90's, in exchange for an ELC A-2 and B-3. Whatever deal RMNZ and RMJP
managed to extract from Talon, I am not privy to, but I saw the actual
authorization letter for production, so "pirates" or "bootlegs" they
aren't. This is yet another example of rival merchants crying sour
grapes because they lack any or all of the following, with regard 1940's
zipper production for their garments: desire, fortitude, care, or funds.
What sort of defense does one expect from makers that realize they have
been outdone on such a substantive issue as proper 1940's zips, when
these same makers fail to even get the nomenclature label data correct on
their jackets? The answer is offense; and offensive and low it is, but
so is the beast's nature. It's just grasping at straws. That's how it
is when one is of that particular ilk and finds themselves unable or
unwilling to compete on the same level. And considering not having the
production or acquistion costs of making copies or locating original
zips, why are their products not lesser in price?
In terms of repro Talon quality, since ELC introduced these, not one
jacket sold by HPA has ever needed a zip replacement. I would expect the
same findings from RMNZ or RMJP. Regarding original NOS 1940's zips used
on new jackets, other than the somewhat sluggish characteristic of the
original (in the same way the steering of a 1941 Plymouth is sluggish to
that of a 1999), they hold up fine. HPA nor ELC would never use an
original zip that was corroded or replete w/ tape rot. Marc W. has an
older ELC RW 1401 A-2 made w/ an original NOS 1941 Talon; any problems at
all w/ your zip in seven years?
I've been compelled to make this point, unfortunately. Those who can see
through the deliberate and desparate false accusations made by the
competition on this subject, or the other obvious, negative inuendos they
suggest, shall rank amongst the more critical and keen-minded readers.
It seems as though there is no avoiding waiding in the muck of the
trenches when dealing with such elements.
Forum members, such as Aurang, are not on our payroll, but they have done
their homework well and are here to benefit the forum. These dedicated,
long-term members, do not suddenly materialize out of the blue when
things aren't going well for a certain maker, extolling infinite,
esteemed and quite unfounded virtues. Rather, they are here every day,
months on end, contributing to the greater enlightenment of all, with no
personal agenda but the truth.
--
Chas.HPA
ken...@my-deja.com
Charles HPA <charl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8l0hbb$rn6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > The modern talons aren't anything like the old talons, they feel
cheap
> > and slide like crud. I question the wisdom of putting one of those
on
> > a jacket vs. a much nicer "pirate." The Asian bootleg talon isn't a
> > real talon, but the current talon isn't even a real talon by 1940's
> > standards. Modern talons have the brand name and that's about all
they
> > can one up the pirate zips on.
Aero have been offered AND tested the following : a very good looking
WWII style zip by Conmar, The "Asian " Talon Alloy zip, Original 60
year old zips from Japan, and the current Talon zip among others. As
with all WWII zips, the breakage point on all alloy zips requires far
less strain than that to break brass zip, the new tape is double or
higher the strength of the old deadstock zip tape, the pin area on the
Conmar, and on most the original WWII zips is weak in comparison to the
current model Talon. Note how many original Type A2 zips begin to tear
at the join with the tape at the bottom LH side. This is a construction
problem, not found on the current Talon USA zip, but unfortunately
still a problem on the Conmar zip, and obviously still a problem on the
replica zips.
Handled carefully these other zips work "OK", but treat 'em
rough...............sorry, no can do!
Our main priority is to produce the strongest jackets made to last as
long as possible, this is why we use a new Talon zip and why we use $20
silk lining, rather than the cotton alternative( cost around $4 I
guess) adopted by so many other makers, perhaps the cost of this, in
addition to the costly 100% wool jersey used on Aero, rather than the
disasterous cotton/wool blend used by some others. Aero jackets should
in fact be far more expensive than any other replicas, due to the
higher cost of the component pieces, however a volume production allows
us to keep our "end user" prices down, in a similar way probably, to
Flight Suits. I doubt if the A2 is a big deal to either company in
terms of overall production, more "A labour of love"......that sums it
up I suppose. The A2 is "subsidised" by the main Aero wholesale range!
Thanks to those who have expressed their satisfaction with Aero, I'm
not getting dragged into an argument, I'll let our jackets do the
talking for me. Anyone who has actually seen an Aero jacket, your
comments please???
Good will to all
Ken @ Aero
avg...@my-deja.com
> I don't know about that Charles, I put my A-2s through some pretty
> rough wear and tear by wearing it to the office and back. Are you
> saying this is different than the wartime use an A-2 gets. Oh by the
> way I never hang it up. I always throw it on a chair. I also expose it
> to a light drizzle now and then if the weather calls for it.
> Kenal0
Are you driving the Dan Ryan expressway again Ken? ;)
AVGFan
avg...@my-deja.com
> No fear, AVG, Lots of good sea food, fresh salmon, and organic
> vegetables, great air and a stress free enviroment. A wonderful holiday
> destination , especially with the Edinburgh Festival almost upon us,
> very popular with you good folk from the US of A, but do yourselves a
> favour, lay of the haggis, have a round or two of golf and try
> our "water of life" instead!! and get yourself a jacket when you are
> over here!
>
> Ken @ The Scottish Tourist Board!!!
Sounds inviting, but I think my next trip across the big pond will have
to be the Clarin Bridge Oyster Festival. And my allegiances lie toward
Bushmill.
avg...@my-deja.com
> I've just stumbled onto this forum after surfing the net, looking for--
> and finding, to my great joy--the manufacturer of the best repro
> leather jackets I've ever found: Aero. Didn't expect to find learned
> discussions about the alchemy of Talon zippers or other such arcane
> matters--I thought this would be a forum full of expresions of
> enthusiasm for great craftsmanship. I guess discussions about hide and
> zippers may fall into that category, but to try and put things back on
> a more general track, I'd like to say a word about Aero. I discovered
> the company by accident in a store on Boston's Newbury Street, where I
> bought a magnificent motorcycle jacket. Thje weight and design and
> manufacture were as near perfect as I could imagine. Over the
> intervening years, I've acquired four--no, five--more Aero jackets,
> including a very fine Irvin repro and jacket they call "The
> Highwayman." Each and every one wears like iron and, after a
> pleasurable break-in period, fits and feels like a second skin. Great
> stuff. It's a treat to learn about all these other companies, but the
> gentlemen who seems to represent Aero here--is he the owner?--makes a
> fine case for his product that is only exceeded by its quality. Thanks
> for listening, and, to everyone on the forum, thanks for sharing all
> your expertise.
These "arcane matters" ARE expressions of enthusiasm and craftsmanship. Most
of us on this forum are A-2 flight jacket enthusiasts, most who can't afford
the skyrocketing prices of an original A-2, don't want to wear out a true
historical relic, and are looking for the most authentic reproduction we can
find.
If all you own is new Aeros, you can't honestly speak in comparisons. I have
no doubt that Trans Atlantic makes a fine quality jacket. Their A-2, however,
is not the strongest attempt out there to make an exact replica of a WW2 AAF
A-2.
Motorcycle jackets on Newbury street huh? I suppose there's a Harley Store
there now too these days.
ken...@my-deja.com
Charles HPA <charl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8l0hbb$rn6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > The modern talons aren't anything like the old talons, they feel
cheap
> > and slide like crud. I question the wisdom of putting one of those
on
> > a jacket vs. a much nicer "pirate." The Asian bootleg talon isn't a
> > real talon, but the current talon isn't even a real talon by 1940's
> > standards. Modern talons have the brand name and that's about all
they
> > can one up the pirate zips on.
> >
>
bit sticky or sluggish but after some members of the forum suggested
rubbing a candle up and down the zip it has worked perfectly and as
smoothly as any jacket I have new or old. The facts about the zips are
interesting. I can't wait to see where this thread goes.
Kenal0
ken...@my-deja.com
The best test without serious measuring equipment is to get a zip, dont
try this on your jacket, try to pull a tooth off with a pliers, see how
difficult or not that proves. Also try crushing the puller in a vice,
the more turns before it snaps the better. Try "high speed" zipping and
unzipping with the zip puller held in a pliers. The big problem with
alloy zips is that the inside edges of the puller wear away quickly,
eventually they are too loose to close the zip, the zip goes up and
down but the teeth dont meet, not a big problem, a new puller fixes it
every time, but inconvenient on a rainy night when your jacket won't
close.If I believed the "Asian Talon" zips were any good, we would use
them, the box, after all looks very stylish.
Ken @ Aero
Timbo
notion (that comes from the same direction) that those of us who are
detail-oriented about repros are somehow missing some sort of "big
picture". I say that's bull. We simply know what we want, and want the
best. I welcome anyone else to comprimise or to focus less on details
but the amount of discussion here shows me that I'm not at all alone in
the pursuit of perfection.
--
Tim
ken...@my-deja.com
> >
> > Ken @ The Scottish Tourist Board!!!
>
> Sounds inviting, but I think my next trip across the big pond will
have
> to be the Clarin Bridge Oyster Festival. And my allegiances lie toward
> Bushmill.
>
> AVGFan
that Ireland, I no longer eat oysters, the last dozen I had, only 9
worked!!!!
Ken @ Aero
Timbo
morass of negativity. I find it intersting that now Ken doesn't want to
argue suddenly, when many of his posts seem to end up either goading
members to defend themselves or contain some sort of negative
insinuation toward something or someone. Amusing? Harmless?
Maybe I'm the only one who feels insulted by the bogging down, again,
of this normally happy group, but I find it hard to dismiss the latest
insinuations and the significant amount of time wasted dealing with
them as "all in good fun".
--
Tim
ken...@my-deja.com
avg...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I don't know about that Charles, I put my A-2s through some pretty
> > rough wear and tear by wearing it to the office and back. Are you
> > saying this is different than the wartime use an A-2 gets. Oh by the
> > way I never hang it up. I always throw it on a chair. I also expose
it
> > to a light drizzle now and then if the weather calls for it.
> > Kenal0
>
> Are you driving the Dan Ryan expressway again Ken? ;)
>
> AVGFan
>
Stevenson and the Dwight D.
Kenal0
ken...@my-deja.com
> >
> I agree with all the above. Once again, we are being dragged into a
> morass of negativity. I find it intersting that now Ken doesn't want
to
> argue suddenly, when many of his posts seem to end up either goading
> members to defend themselves or contain some sort of negative
> insinuation toward something or someone. Amusing? Harmless?
> Maybe I'm the only one who feels insulted by the bogging down, again,
> of this normally happy group, but I find it hard to dismiss the latest
> insinuations and the significant amount of time wasted dealing with
> them as "all in good fun".
>
>
Sorry you feel like this Tim, I thought I had answered everything, I'm
also sorry if you feel discussing the quality of replica A2 components
is "bogging down" the forum , surely a healthy debate, that brings the
end user the most information possible, whether it be from Aero, HPA,
ELC,Lost Worlds, Capt Morgan or any other maker has surely got to be a
healthy thing. I know I have learned facts thru this forum that I was
unaware of previously, I'm sure EVERY forum member has also picked up
something they didn't know previously, without wishing to bring up the
old "Silk debate", Marc W's comments must have come as a surprise to
most posters, especially those who reacted with total distain when I
first suggested the difficulty in distinguishing between the two
materials in original WWII jackets, Is this a forun or a manufactures
shill???? I thought it was a forum, if I'm WRONG, I'll gladly wave
goodbye!
Ken @ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
for--
> and finding, to my great joy--the manufacturer of the best repro
> leather jackets I've ever found: Aero. Didn't expect to find learned
> discussions about the alchemy of Talon zippers or other such arcane
> matters--I thought this would be a forum full of expresions of
> enthusiasm for great craftsmanship. I guess discussions about hide and
> zippers may fall into that category, but to try and put things back on
> a more general track, I'd like to say a word about Aero. I discovered
> the company by accident in a store on Boston's Newbury Street, where I
> bought a magnificent motorcycle jacket. Thje weight and design and
> manufacture were as near perfect as I could imagine. Over the
> intervening years, I've acquired four--no, five--more Aero jackets,
> including a very fine Irvin repro and jacket they call "The
> Highwayman." Each and every one wears like iron and, after a
> pleasurable break-in period, fits and feels like a second skin. Great
> stuff. It's a treat to learn about all these other companies, but the
> gentlemen who seems to represent Aero here--is he the owner?--makes a
> fine case for his product that is only exceeded by its quality. Thanks
> for listening, and, to everyone on the forum, thanks for sharing all
> your expertise.
>
Thanks for your kind comments and welcome to the forum, I am not the
owner of Aero, merely one of three partners each of whom play an
equally important part in running Aero. I will pass on your
comlimentary comments to our dedicated team of machinists and cutters,
you may find the machinists initials or name on a ticket inside the
pocket, if it hasn't worn away with age, hopefully the only component
that will wear away!
Ken @ Aero PP The machinists, the REAL stars at Aero