But what about the leather?
ken...@my-deja.com
used A2's than almost anyone on the forum.
She has this question.................................
She asks "Why do the "stitch for stitch" replicas all fall down on the
most important ingredient, the Horsehide. It's always too thin and
soft, surely the weight and feel of the leather is more important by
far than say, the stitch pattern of an epaulette?" She adds " I can't
speak for anything McCoys has produced since I was last in their Tokyo
shop, 1998, however they had 10 years to get it right and hadn't
managed by then, so there seems little reason to believe they have got
it right now"
Lydia apologises for not wanting to join the forum and hopes you will
excuse a "non member" asking a relevant question.
Ken @ Aero PP Lydia
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
swing...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote this stinky bait:
I don't know which repros you are specifically writing about, but
here's what Marc said about your jackets in his review,
"In thickness, weight, density, and appearance, the leather of these
jackets is consistent with originals. The leather is comfortably soft
and will require little breaking in."
He has pretty similiar comments about ELC, RM & Flight Suits A-2s, so
who is it that has the horsehide that falls so short of the originals?
Avirex? Cooper? They aren't stiich for stitch guys...
If you want to take a shot at someone, and write an inflamatory post,
just come right out and do it. You know why people want a stitch for
stitch jacket ("warts and all", BTW, what do you consider the warts in
original A-2s?), and you know that you take five jackets from any
reproducer, and they are all going to feel, and weigh, different. Just
like five original A-2s.
Anybody in this forum who has handled a vintage leather jacket, knows
how they are quite often very dry and stiff, and knows that that isn't
how they were 60 years ago.
corona...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> This post is on behalf of my wife, Lydia who has probably handled more
> used A2's than almost anyone on the forum.
> She has this question.................................
> She asks "Why do the "stitch for stitch" replicas all fall down on the
> most important ingredient, the Horsehide. It's always too thin and
> soft, surely the weight and feel of the leather is more important by
> far than say, the stitch pattern of an epaulette?" She adds " I can't
> speak for anything McCoys has produced since I was last in their Tokyo
> shop, 1998, however they had 10 years to get it right and hadn't
> managed by then, so there seems little reason to believe they have got
> it right now"
> Lydia apologises for not wanting to join the forum and hopes you will
> excuse a "non member" asking a relevant question.
>
> Ken @ Aero PP Lydia
>
should become a member of this forum right away. Has Lydia had a chance
to see first hand, Eastman's analine RW1401P yet? I think in terms of the
thickness, grain , it's pretty close to an original 1401P I've seen in
Dayton (except that it should have a Crown zip).
aur...@my-deja.com
> I don't know which repros you are specifically writing about, but
> here's what Marc said about your jackets in his review,
>
> "In thickness, weight, density, and appearance, the leather of these
> jackets is consistent with originals. The leather is comfortably soft
> and will require little breaking in."
>
> He has pretty similiar comments about ELC, RM & Flight Suits A-2s, so
> who is it that has the horsehide that falls so short of the originals?
> Avirex? Cooper? They aren't stiich for stitch guys...
>
> If you want to take a shot at someone, and write an inflamatory post,
> just come right out and do it. You know why people want a stitch for
> stitch jacket ("warts and all", BTW, what do you consider the warts in
> original A-2s?), and you know that you take five jackets from any
> reproducer, and they are all going to feel, and weigh, different.
Just
> like five original A-2s.
>
> Anybody in this forum who has handled a vintage leather jacket, knows
> how they are quite often very dry and stiff, and knows that that isn't
> how they were 60 years ago.
>
When comparing the standard ELC A-2 and the Aero Samples, I've come to
the conclusion that they are pretty much identical.
Sorry Ken, I don't think they are giving you the better horsehide than
ELC is getting from that UK tannery, they are giving you the same
stuff, though there is less character and more uniformity with the Aero
leather.
Right now it's fairly pointless for me to debate Horsehide leather, the
42R Eastman A-2 didn't work as well as I would have liked, slightly
pinching in broad movements of the arms. Looks like I'll be flying
navy with an Eastman GF M422a! The Bi-Swing should alleviate any
problems I had with the A-2.
With regards to my 43R chest, Eastman has done very well in consistancy
with size, I'm impressed, the 42 is a little tight and the 44 is a bit
big :)
ken...@my-deja.com
corona...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8kvi0v$3qh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > This post is on behalf of my wife, Lydia who has probably handled
more
> > used A2's than almost anyone on the forum.
> > She has this question.................................
> > She asks "Why do the "stitch for stitch" replicas all fall down on
the
> > most important ingredient, the Horsehide. It's always too thin and
> > soft, surely the weight and feel of the leather is more important by
> > far than say, the stitch pattern of an epaulette?" She adds " I
can't
> > speak for anything McCoys has produced since I was last in their
Tokyo
> > shop, 1998, however they had 10 years to get it right and hadn't
> > managed by then, so there seems little reason to believe they have
got
> > it right now"
> > Lydia apologises for not wanting to join the forum and hopes you
will
> > excuse a "non member" asking a relevant question.
> >
> > Ken @ Aero PP Lydia
> >
> should become a member of this forum right away. Has Lydia had a
chance
> to see first hand, Eastman's analine RW1401P yet? I think in terms of
the
> thickness, grain , it's pretty close to an original 1401P I've seen in
> Dayton (except that it should have a Crown zip).
>
and plently Eastman jackets. I'd be far more interested in hearing what
Capt Bradley remembers about the weight and feel of his original A2
jacket, I haven't seen one of his replicas personally, but I understand
from Japan that they are quite sustansial and they certaintly appear to
be made from a firmish hide, judging from the photos I have seen.
Ken @ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
> stitch jacket
Sorry, swing I have never quite found out. Seriously
("warts and all", BTW, what do you consider the warts in
> original A-2s
If you really want to know, I have some research somewhere into
original A2's(most of it I can still remember) that pinpoints the flaws
in construction by most original manufactures. The results of this
study showed not one WWII made the perfect jacket, Cable Raincoat
probably came closest. This is why Aero don't make a stitch for stitch
A2 replica. Our research pinpoints the pattern errors where they occur,
poor sleeve construction by a leading WWII maker, wrongly shaped collar
by another, problems with the jersey, linings etc. its quite a list. I
would prefer not to list the lot on the forum, as I have no wish to
assist a rival in improving their jackets, however as a show of
goodwill, I am willing to send you an abbreviated copy on the
understanding that it will not be passed on to any another jacket
maker. If you are serious about A2's and are a man of honour, post an
agreement to my one condition, with an email address, and as a trusting
Highlander and a man of his word I'll pass on my findings
Charles HPA
<snip>
Has Lydia had a chance
> to see first hand, Eastman's analine RW1401P yet? I think in terms of the
> thickness, grain , it's pretty close to an original 1401P I've seen in
> Dayton (except that it should have a Crown zip).
>
If ELC was copying a specific RW 1401-P w/a Crown zip, then it should
have one. However, not all 1401's are found w/ Crown zips, nor would I
dismiss the possibility that an early Kwik zip *could* be correct, though
I haven't seen or heard of one being used. I agree w/ your sentiments on
the aniline hides ELC uses. Any of four ELC suppliers can produce
leather consistent w/ those found on the vast majority of original A-2
contracts. I believe you also had a chance to see the hide used on the
Star A-2 when you visited ELC, which is different than the 1401 supply,
but no less impressive to me.
swing...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> You know why people want a stitch for
> > stitch jacket
>
> Sorry, swing I have never quite found out. Seriously
Why does anyone buy a reproduction? The original is either too
expensive, too rare, or too valueable (for whatever reason) to wear.
And then with A-2 reproductions, an element of hero worship and fantasy
comes into play. Why do I by a rerpo A-2? 1.) Because an orginal
would have to be a 48 or 50 (which means big bucks), 2.) I feel an
original A-2 is too valueable a peice of history to wear into
ruination, 3.) that element of fantasy, and wanting to at least look
like my heroes, since I can't emulate them, and 4.) A-2s just look good.
Then the desicion has to be made, what do I want? Do I want an A-
2 "style" jacket, or do I want something that tries to replicate the
original as close as possible? I want the one that replicates as close
as possible. Yes, I won't expecpt poor stitching, or snaps that won't
match up, but I want most eveything else as close as possible. I'm not
worried about stuff like neck wear, and stretched cuffs. You make the
comments on your web site that Star's sleeve configuration is less than
perfect... I don't know about that. I *prefer* the sleeves on my ELC
Star to those on any other A-2 that I've ever worn.
> ("warts and all", BTW, what do you consider the warts in
> > original A-2s
>
> If you really want to know, I have some research somewhere into
> original A2's(most of it I can still remember) that pinpoints the
flaws
> in construction by most original manufactures. The results of this
> study showed not one WWII made the perfect jacket, Cable Raincoat
> probably came closest. This is why Aero don't make a stitch for stitch
> A2 replica. Our research pinpoints the pattern errors where they
occur,
> poor sleeve construction by a leading WWII maker, wrongly shaped
collar
> by another, problems with the jersey, linings etc. its quite a list. I
> would prefer not to list the lot on the forum, as I have no wish to
> assist a rival in improving their jackets, however as a show of
> goodwill, I am willing to send you an abbreviated copy on the
> understanding that it will not be passed on to any another jacket
> maker. If you are serious about A2's and are a man of honour, post an
> agreement to my one condition, with an email address, and as a
trusting
> Highlander and a man of his word I'll pass on my findings
>
> Ken @ Aero
Thank you for the offer, but I'm aware of things you are listing as
short comings. I except many of them as just the nature of the beast.
CHthree
aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I don't know which repros you are specifically writing about, but
> > here's what Marc said about your jackets in his review,
> >
> > "In thickness, weight, density, and appearance, the leather of these
> > jackets is consistent with originals. The leather is comfortably soft
> > and will require little breaking in."
> >
> > He has pretty similiar comments about ELC, RM & Flight Suits A-2s, so
> > who is it that has the horsehide that falls so short of the originals?
> > Avirex? Cooper? They aren't stiich for stitch guys...
> >
> > If you want to take a shot at someone, and write an inflamatory post,
> > just come right out and do it. You know why people want a stitch for
> > stitch jacket ("warts and all", BTW, what do you consider the warts in
> > original A-2s?), and you know that you take five jackets from any
> > reproducer, and they are all going to feel, and weigh, different.
> Just
> > like five original A-2s.
> >
> > Anybody in this forum who has handled a vintage leather jacket, knows
> > how they are quite often very dry and stiff, and knows that that isn't
> > how they were 60 years ago.
> >
> the conclusion that they are pretty much identical.
>
> Sorry Ken, I don't think they are giving you the better horsehide than
> ELC is getting from that UK tannery, they are giving you the same
> stuff, though there is less character and more uniformity with the Aero
> leather.
>
> Right now it's fairly pointless for me to debate Horsehide leather, the
> 42R Eastman A-2 didn't work as well as I would have liked, slightly
> pinching in broad movements of the arms. Looks like I'll be flying
> navy with an Eastman GF M422a! The Bi-Swing should alleviate any
> problems I had with the A-2.
>
> With regards to my 43R chest, Eastman has done very well in consistancy
> with size, I'm impressed, the 42 is a little tight and the 44 is a bit
> big :)
>
I agree with that comment on the size. I too suffer from being 43R and cant't
get a standard Eastman a2 to fit "exactly" how I want.
ken...@my-deja.com
come to
> > the conclusion that they are pretty much identical.
> >
> > Sorry Ken, I don't think they are giving you the better horsehide
than
> > ELC is getting from that UK tannery, they are giving you the same
> > stuff, though there is less character and more uniformity with the
Aero
> > leather.
> >
> > Right now it's fairly pointless for me to debate Horsehide leather,
the
> > 42R Eastman A-2 didn't work as well as I would have liked, slightly
> > pinching in broad movements of the arms. Looks like I'll be flying
> > navy with an Eastman GF M422a! The Bi-Swing should alleviate any
> > problems I had with the A-2.
> >
> > With regards to my 43R chest, Eastman has done very well in
consistancy
> > with size, I'm impressed, the 42 is a little tight and the 44 is a
bit
> > big :)
> >
jacket form, much as we like to help by sending cuttings out, it's very
difficult to tell from a 6" square piece of hide how a piece of leather
will make into a jacket. Most of the stuff we are bringing (Sat & Sun
only) will be apprentice work, end of runs, rejects etc, but we are
bringing a few "proper" Aero military items, and loads of original
items A2,s B3's Irvins etc etc.
I may have been misquoted slightly on my comments re the finish of the
leather from the "mutual" tannery. Aero and ELC ask for different
finishes, we want the heaviest and firmest of the horsehides, Gary
wants a softer, slightly thinner Horse, God knows who is right, its all
opinion, I can only go by the feel of the originals back in the late
60's when I first became aware of the A2. We use stiffer hides to give
the longest wearing jacket we can produce, and we also tell customers
if the want a soft and ready broken in jacket, then perhaps Aero is the
wrong choice and they would be better getting an Eastman. How many
other makers are this honest???
Ken @ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
ever make it to any shows in the midwest, ie. Osh Kosh air show or any
of the bike shows?
Kenal0
ken...@my-deja.com
As an admirer of SOME of Stuart`s prose, I might just take that as a
compliment,! I have, however, neither met, nor had any dealings with
the man, although I understand from a mutual aquaintence, he has no
beef with Aero, we sure as hell have no beef with Stuart!
Re our impartial advice................
The last person to recieve this advice is, I believe, a forum
member....if you ARE reading this Johnny please confirm, oh and buy the
way your USN Name Tag left today!
Ken@ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
. Do you
> ever make it to any shows in the midwest, ie. Osh Kosh air show or any
> of the bike shows?
> Kenal0
Sorry meant to add this......................
It's unlikely, we have a stockist in Chicago, "Road King" ,not of
Militaria however, plenty of Bike Jackets
Mark, AKA Aero LthrUSA will be doing an airshow in South Carolina in
November (?) I think
Ken 'Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
corona...@my-deja.com
really liked the texture as well as the spray finish, but I do have to
agree with Marc's comment that it would be nice if the hide had a bit
more beef to it. By the way, I ended up buying one from Allen and didn't
notice a longer sleeve length that Marc commented on. Did Eastman change
the sleeve length in later productions?
stringf...@my-deja.com
I heard they were thinking about it, some sort of fluke thing, don't
know if they have changed them yet though.