I'm sick of this...
stringf...@my-deja.com
tongue er...fingers any longer. As I have stated before, my love for
leather comes from my passion for historic aviation. I wear the A-2
because the guys who spilled their guts over Europe and the Pacific/CBI
wore them, not to mention they look cool as hell. If it were not for
them and every other vet, we would not be having this discussion.
I am not one of those "this jacket is better than that" people, nor
will I be pulled into an arguement about it, a discussion maybe but not
an arguement. My choice for the A-2 I wear is a personal one, a jacket
that can keep up with me now and that I can pass down the generation
line. I like all manufacturers, but I am sick and tired of reading
posts from members patronizing one another for the other's insults
toward a fellow manufacturer. I let my own pictures of my Aero speak
for itself. It is puzzling to me that after the first 24 hrs of me
posting the link my Aero Album got 302 hits, with only one written
response on here. Actually it confirms my suspicion of the mentality
of "some" of the members on here: If you don't have an Eastman, you
are not worth talking to.
I am extremely disappointed in those members who make comments about
the Aero and who think they know what it is without having handled or
worn one in person. They have no foundation for an point to make and
should not pass their "knowledge" to future jacket buyers (I hope those
future buyers are smart enough to see this).
I would also like to think that this forum is not a manufacturer's
shill, but with the past comments I have seen it is no wonder that this
rumor has not disappeared yet. Marc, I appreciate all of the time and
effort you put into the evaluations and all of the B.S. you have to put
up with. Just one question: Why does the links section on the A-2
page list Eastman as a "Premium" jacket vendor, while all the others
just get "jacket vendor". It's your site, you can put what you want on
it, just this is not helping to disparage the shill rumor nor is it
helping the outward appearance of this forum to others. If you have
read this far, thank you for your patience.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Timbo
give a FF who wears what jacket on this site. I do have opnions about
what's best for me, and respect those who have come to similar
conclusions through the same manner as I have, which is one of ongoing
trial and error, but that really has nothing to do with it.
My problem is since there has been an Aero presence here, there seems
to be this duality in messages; the one point seems to be what
difference does it make etc. while the other is resentful that they
aren't being considered as worthy to Eastman. The above post is a
classic example; first you say you are impartial and don't care who
wears what but then go on to add that your photos had so many hits yet
only one of us here commented, leading you to conclude that this site
is some sort of Eastman-biased elitist hangout. Every Aero-related
person here with the exception of Mark Moye seems ultra paranoid about
the possibility that many of the members may actually love their
Eastmans...has it occured to you folks that maybe these people (of
which I am one) did a lot of buying and looking and are legitimately
happy with their Eastmans? Do you log onto a sports car site and
complain that people are praising their Porsches? Do you really think
there's some sort some sort of conspiracy?! I'm sick of the notion that
because I like Eastman, it's somehow taking something away from the
Aero folks. I will not apologize for my respect of Eastman jackets (I
have a few McCoys I love, do you take that as some sort of Aero put-
down too?) and if people think there is some sort of politics behind
their popularity, then I suggest staying away from forums in general or
starting your own. We always had banter here about what we thought was
best but it was always good natured and in the spirit of sharing
information and the general love of flight jackets. I'm sick of this
whole Aero presence and all the negativity and distraction.
--
Tim
Timbo
ken...@my-deja.com
distraction.
> --
> Tim
>
better than anthing I could add!
Ken @ Aero
If this posts twice, sorry.
ken...@my-deja.com
that is why I keep coming back for more. (2 Eastmans,1 Lost Worlds and
when I save my pennies an Aero Longshoreman.) Oh yeah 1 Wested Indy
Jacket.
Kenal0
aur...@my-deja.com
> whole Aero presence and all the negativity and distraction.
> --
> Tim
>
I neither feel guilty nor sorry that I wholeheartedly endorse nearly
everything Eastman makes.
Respect must be earned and not given out like party favors.
Of course the new or unknown maker will have to earn respect. Right
now Eastman is the most respected maker on the forums, this isn’t
because they paid anyone off to say so, quite the contrary, we paid
them. They are respected because they currently make some of the best
jackets on the planet at what I consider fair prices compared to what
designer fashion studios get away with charging for their cheap-o
lambskin jackets.
This is an A-2 reproduction jacket discussion group, first and
foremost, we may discuss a large number other things but we primarily
deal with A-2’s. Through a fair and unbiased evaluation the current
Aero A-2 didn’t quite make the cut when it comes to making a “stitch
nazi” garment.
Ken typically complicates matters by trying to dish out his “expert?”
advice to other makers, when he himself can’t make a “stitch nazi” A-2
reproduction. Eastman fans like myself typically don’t receive this
very well. Sometimes we even feel that he might be insulting our
intelligence for buying Eastman and not Aero. This is an attitude I’ve
only gotten from one other jacket maker who needs no introduction.
The Aero jacket really isn’t what the community is looking for, I think
Ken needs to accept this before we can have any sort of understanding
and unity on the forum.
And now I've said my bit.
ken...@my-deja.com
through the parting shots there is some interesting info. Two jacket
makers with two Phylosiphies(darn did I screw that word up).Remember
Eastman makes a "best of the components" jacket in their house brand
that looks pretty nice so they are not just "stitch Nazis"( A term
which I think is not appropriate). A comparison of the Eastman House
jacket against the Aero would be more appropriate as the contract
jackets real comparison should be made against their original
counterparts as this is what they are trying to duplicate. I for one am
not looking for unity on the forum just some respect and common
courtesy as I try to give others. "Why can't we all just get along."
There I said it. Does anyone have a tissue?
Kenal0
lfle...@my-deja.com
>
> The Aero jacket really isn’t what the community is looking for, I
think
> Ken needs to accept this before we can have any sort of understanding
> and unity on the forum.
>
> And now I've said my bit.
>
can't say if I like it or not and won't until I have. I have handled
Eastman, LW and RM and I have formulated an opinion about them. But
the bottom line here is that Eastman, LW and Aero all have distinct
approaches to what makes a good A2 repro. Regarding hides, I think
it's fair to say that no one on this forum can say without a doubt that
original A2's--when they were issued--were more like Eastman, LW, Aero
or RM. The only way this issue will be conclusively answered for me is
if someone comes up with a perfectly preserved, never worn, original.
Of course, other features, like details and styling, which can be
compared directly with used originals, are another matter. But when
you get past the other features, it all comes down to guesswork and
taste and that, for my nickel, is why I like these darn things anyway.
stringf...@my-deja.com
> --
> Tim
>
> Before you buy.
OK, you've vented, now can I buy you a cold one so we can shoot the
sh** like civilized people? :>) Make that 3, one for yourself, one for
your Eastman, and one for your McCoy!
Seriously though, these past few days there have been some posts on
here that have really chapped my ass, I just call them like I see them.
I've been a lurking reader for almost a year now, you don't know hardly
enough about my jacket experiences as I do of yours, and trust me I've
had all of the big ones. I know all about the trials and errors of
plunking down the bucks for these things. My wife just got through
lecturing me about going through 10 or more (lost count) of $500+
jackets, while I don't have one decent Sunday suit, not even a pair of
dark nice pants. I actually prefer to wear the leather with a pair of
khakis and a tie!
stringf...@my-deja.com
> > Both Ken and Charles speak their peace on this forum and if you sift
> through the parting shots there is some interesting info. Two jacket
> makers with two Phylosiphies(darn did I screw that word up).Remember
> Eastman makes a "best of the components" jacket in their house brand
> that looks pretty nice so they are not just "stitch Nazis"( A term
> which I think is not appropriate). A comparison of the Eastman House
> jacket against the Aero would be more appropriate as the contract
> jackets real comparison should be made against their original
> counterparts as this is what they are trying to duplicate. I for one
am
> not looking for unity on the forum just some respect and common
> courtesy as I try to give others. "Why can't we all just get along."
> There I said it. Does anyone have a tissue?
> Kenal0
>
> Before you buy.
Here (tissue). Let us know when you get your Longshoreman. If it's
anything like the Bootlegger, you'll be able to join the Olympic weight
lifting team in a month. Man that is some heavy stuff!
Timbo
> > --
> > Tim
> >
> sh** like civilized people? :>) Make that 3, one for yourself, one
for
> your Eastman, and one for your McCoy!
> Seriously though, these past few days there have been some posts on
> here that have really chapped my ass, I just call them like I see
them.
> I've been a lurking reader for almost a year now, you don't know
hardly
> enough about my jacket experiences as I do of yours, and trust me I've
> had all of the big ones. I know all about the trials and errors of
> plunking down the bucks for these things. My wife just got through
> lecturing me about going through 10 or more (lost count) of $500+
> jackets, while I don't have one decent Sunday suit, not even a pair of
> dark nice pants. I actually prefer to wear the leather with a pair of
> khakis and a tie!
>
gesture. I can't help wondering why you were lurking so long if you
have so much experience with repros...I would go nuts not being able to
join in. Regarding the comment that I don't know of your jacket
experiences; that's true (though you could have joined long ago) but I
don't know of every members jacket complete inventory of experiences
here as well as I'm sure we all have jackets and experiences we haven't
bothered to share for one reason or another. Yeah, and I know all about
the trails and errors, too. Some of it I'd rather forget.
--
Tim
Timbo
> distraction.
> > --
> > Tim
> >
> better than anthing I could add!
>
> Ken @ Aero
>
> If this posts twice, sorry.
>
that would be a tough task as I feel the recent threads generated by
the ones I addressed are sitting there, in our recent past, as the best
testimony.
ken...@my-deja.com
> This is an A-2 reproduction jacket discussion group, first and
> foremost, we may discuss a large number other things but we primarily
> deal with A-2’s. Through a fair and unbiased evaluation the current
> Aero A-2 didn’t quite make the cut when it comes to making a “stitch
> nazi” garment.
We have never pretended to, nor will ever make, a stitch for stitch
replica, for one reason, and one reason only. The was not one single
maker during WWII that got EVERYTHING right. The nearest was possibly
Cable Raincoat, but our company is called Aero Leather Clothging Co. we
are not Cable Raincoat, we are not even Aero Leather Clothing, Beacon
NY. We are about to takke delivery of a new label, but sorry folks, it
WONT have Beacon NY on the label, because we are not IN Beacon. We
won't move into "fantasy" factories. The only jacket we
could "legitimately" copy "stitch for stitc" would be the old Aero, but
Christ, have you looked at the way THEY were thrown together, and the
p*ss poor quality of the lining. NO THANK YOU
>
> Ken typically complicates matters by trying to dish out his “expert?”
> advice to other makers, when he himself can’t make a “stitch nazi” A-2
> reproduction.
As I said we dont want to, our (as it's known here) house jacket
combines the best of the WWII jackets into one garment. As for expert,
no I don't claim to be an expert, but I can say thisd, I have worn A2
jackets since 1967, I have dealt in original A2 jackets since 1973, I
have sold well in excess of 25000 vintage horsehide jackets, including
2000+ original A2 's many with insignia, several that are in McQuires
books, and I have saved, I guess, over 100 from the rubbish tip, that
were wrecks before I renovated them.
At a guess we have manufactured nearly 15000 replicas, (worked out from
our label purchases)and I have been a qualified tailor since I was 21.
Those are my qualifications. We have a vast library of refernce related
to vintage clothing, military and otherwise.
Eastman fans like myself typically don’t receive this
> very well.
The truth is out there, it may not be popular, but it can't be denied.
Ken @ Aero
avg...@my-deja.com
> We have never pretended to, nor will ever make, a stitch for stitch
> replica, for one reason, and one reason only. The was not one single
> maker during WWII that got EVERYTHING right. The nearest was possibly
> Cable Raincoat, but our company is called Aero Leather Clothging Co. we
> are not Cable Raincoat, we are not even Aero Leather Clothing, Beacon
> NY. We are about to takke delivery of a new label, but sorry folks, it
> WONT have Beacon NY on the label, because we are not IN Beacon. We
> won't move into "fantasy" factories. The only jacket we
> could "legitimately" copy "stitch for stitc" would be the old Aero, but
> Christ, have you looked at the way THEY were thrown together, and the
> p*ss poor quality of the lining. NO THANK YOU
We have discussed the wide range of "interpretation" that original
manufacturers used in producing A-2s, it gave individual style to the
different contracts. But you really can't point to a "right" interpretation
of the design drawing. In repros you CAN point to individual items that were
never used or stitching that wasn't common in the original A-2, if you are so
inclined - as most of us are on this forum.
> As I said we dont want to, our (as it's known here) house jacket
> combines the best of the WWII jackets into one garment. As for expert,
> no I don't claim to be an expert, but I can say thisd, I have worn A2
> jackets since 1967, I have dealt in original A2 jackets since 1973, I
> have sold well in excess of 25000 vintage horsehide jackets, including
> 2000+ original A2 's many with insignia, several that are in McQuires
> books, and I have saved, I guess, over 100 from the rubbish tip, that
> were wrecks before I renovated them.
> At a guess we have manufactured nearly 15000 replicas, (worked out from
> our label purchases)and I have been a qualified tailor since I was 21.
> Those are my qualifications. We have a vast library of refernce related
> to vintage clothing, military and otherwise.
A question: You've oft mentioned owning or repairing some of the jackets
in "American Flight Jackets Airmen, and Aircraft." But you always mis-
spell the author's, Jon A. Maguire, name. Are you making some hidden
point (that we're all missing) by misspelling it? Honest question.
> The truth is out there, it may not be popular, but it can't be denied.
Yes, the truth is right in your post. Aero is not out to make an authentic
reproduction of a WW2 AAF A-2 flight jacket. Not denying that it doesn't
want to make a well manufactured leather jacket with some components
reminiscent of the original A-2.
AVGFan
stringf...@my-deja.com
They have ALL components of the original A-2, not just some. The
patterns are cut straight from original Aeros, and they have added
better quality materials than the originals and have put them in the
same places as those were on originals. It is in no way less of an A-2
than any other maker's version out there.
avg...@my-deja.com
> They have ALL components of the original A-2, not just some. The
> patterns are cut straight from original Aeros, and they have added
> better quality materials than the originals and have put them in the
> same places as those were on originals. It is in no way less of an A-2
> than any other maker's version out there.
Understood, but not all of the components are authentic to the originals.
So, it is less of an A-2 to those of us who are looking for more authenticity
in our jacket(s).
ken...@my-deja.com
> We have discussed the wide range of "interpretation" that original
> manufacturers used in producing A-2s, it gave individual style to the
> different contracts. But you really can't point to a "right"
interpretation
> of the design drawing. In repros you CAN point to individual items
that were
> never used or stitching that wasn't common in the original A-2, if
you are so
> inclined - as most of us are on this forum.
There are certain problems with certain construction methods that we
omit, ie, the triangle THRU the knit on the LH bottom front that tore
the jersey so many original jackets. This is because a different needle
point is needed for jersey , and this needle is too thin to top stitch
the zip, therefore by stitching thru the jersey with the LEATHER needle
with Guarantee to break at lleast one or two wool threads which will
eventually give that genuine WWII torn knit, check out originals. This
is one of many points where one maker does it better than another. as I
said in another post, I don't want to give too much away, but I also
need to prove a point.
>
> A question: You've oft mentioned owning or repairing some of the
jackets
> in "American Flight Jackets Airmen, and Aircraft." But you always mis-
> spell the author's, Jon A. Maguire, name. Are you making some hidden
> point (that we're all missing) by misspelling it? Honest question.
Wow! A total misspelling, we have so many reference books Im ashamed to
say I've never really look at the writers names, that's a terrible
admition, but a true Highlander is nothing if not honest, Sorry
Jon...see now I've looked!!!
Ken @ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
>
> Understood, but not all of the components are authentic to the
originals.
> So, it is less of an A-2 to those of us who are looking for more
authenticity
> in our jacket(s).
>
Is it the lining?? surely silk is more authentic than cotton,a later
cheap replacement used by Aero Beacon, and possibly others, no proof of
that yet.
Brass zip ? well check Sweetings book out, alloy was only used as an
alternative when brass became scarce, and vast numbers of sheepkins
were rendered useless by the inferior zips, his words not mine. A brass
made in USA Talon must be more original than a "Asian Bootleg"( or
whatever its called )Talon. non original???????????? PLEASE!
We use original spec 100% pure new wool jersey We don't use cheap
cotton/wool mix cuffing which is also unoriginal, and of very poor
service, just check out all the misshapen cotton t shirts in your local
Thrift Store. New Wool retains its elasticity.
Cant be the horsehide, we use North American and European Horse, That
must be it.....just order US Horsehide......no that cant be it can it,
because that precludes ELC???????????
I AM STUMPED..........please enlighten me, where are we going wrong.
It's not made in USA or Australia that all I can think of!
avg...@my-deja.com
> I can't understand what you mean,
> Is it the lining?? surely silk is more authentic than cotton,a later
> cheap replacement used by Aero Beacon, and possibly others, no proof of
> that yet.
Not to stir up the silk/cotton debate again, I'll quote Marc, "I've never seen
this shade on any original A-2 even from some early samples dated 1932,
1933, and 1937..." Yeah, I read what you told him about that, but you are
quick to contradict HPA on their claims.
> Brass zip ? well check Sweetings book out, alloy was only used as an
> alternative when brass became scarce, and vast numbers of sheepkins
> were rendered useless by the inferior zips, his words not mine. A brass
> made in USA Talon must be more original than a "Asian Bootleg"( or
> whatever its called )Talon. non original???????????? PLEASE!
To quote Marc again, "The zipper is a modern make and style brass Talon
zip." Modern.
> We use original spec 100% pure new wool jersey We don't use cheap
> cotton/wool mix cuffing which is also unoriginal, and of very poor
> service, just check out all the misshapen cotton t shirts in your local
> Thrift Store. New Wool retains its elasticity.
And again, "...Aero makes use of single weave knits on the cuffs rather than
the double weave typical of original A-2s." Having not seen every
manufacturer's example of an A-2, I suppose there could be some with single
weave, but the majority appear to be double.
And, something that hasn't been mentioned; being a graphic artist for 17
years, I noticed that the AAF "decal" uses a type font that did not exist
until after World War 2. Not being the type of Jacketeer to adorn my A-2 with
a decal, that detail doesn't matter much to me - but you may want to check
into it.
AVGFan
avg...@my-deja.com
> omit, ie, the triangle THRU the knit on the LH bottom front that tore
> the jersey so many original jackets. This is because a different needle
> point is needed for jersey , and this needle is too thin to top stitch
> the zip, therefore by stitching thru the jersey with the LEATHER needle
> with Guarantee to break at lleast one or two wool threads which will
> eventually give that genuine WWII torn knit, check out originals. This
> is one of many points where one maker does it better than another. as I
> said in another post, I don't want to give too much away, but I also
> need to prove a point.
Let it be noted that I've never once said that I thought your jackets were
of shoddy manufacture.
chapman...@my-deja.com
I want to say that there are two items on this forum that should be
addressed.
First: I think we all quite enjoy flight jackets and the reproductions
that are made these days. There are several different types of
reproductions and levels of quality and authenticity to the originals.
As a great market environment there is room to fill almost any need,
and we can see a number of manufacturers doing that. Those who
manufacture should promote their strengths, and why someone would buy
their product, as often is the case. Those who buy from them will be
quite happy for these reasons. It's good to promote your products -
that's why I bought a Flight Suite M-422a - there are others, but I
listened to them the most (a bit for price, not that I wouldn't want an
Eastman Gordon & Ferguson or to look at pictures of the Aero M-422a).
Each company fills a certain need for the customer, and if the customer
likes to have the original manufacturer's name and city of production,
then make the customer happy and do that. If your customers don't care
for that and want the real manufacturers name and city, have that with
a clear conscience.
Second: I think it's best not to make remarks that downplay any
company's production standards. It gives the impression the
manufacturer is not meeting customer needs, and again there are many
different customers and desires. There is no need to defend your
production methods - there are enough customers. Each company will fill
it's roll, and we are happy as we take a risk and make a purchase, as
long as we as cusomers know what we're gettting first, and then enjoy
the jacket. If I had all the money I wanted, you better believe that
I'd have a huge selection of jackets.
Sometimes it seems that we like to make arguments for the lack of drama
in our own lives. This is an informational forum, and quite a good one
that's passionate and full of content. Let's enjoy it while promoting
what we think is best.
Thanks for listening, and I'm sure we'll keep enjoying the legacy of
leather that started so long ago and hopefully will go far beyond us.
John
ken...@my-deja.com
read some of the comments made about Aero before ANY poster except I
think Amish John (who has an old late 1980's Aero) had ever seen an
Aero, to read the postings it lay somewhere between Avirex and
L.L.Bean. Defending our product has open some peoples eyes and judging
by the very positive feedback from every one who has actually seen an
Aero jacket, by defending ourselves, we have given many new Aero
jackets the satisfaction of buying a product they are truely happy
with. The only other negative posting from somone who thinks he saw an
Aero Jacket was from Paulo, who in fact saw a French Pirate Aero A2
that was amongst a batch later destroyed by Trading Standards Officers
Many thanks for allowing us to be judged on our product rather than on
hearsay, and our machinist pass on their thanks for all the positive
comments from recent Aero customers, thanks on thier behalf
Ken @ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
chapman...@my-deja.com
Excellent. There's no doubt that your presence here has caused in
increase in sales, as well as understanding of the jackets made by
Aero. There's nothing wrong with that in my mind. That's part of the A-
2 environment that this forum gives people.
Thanks,
J
ken...@my-deja.com
avg...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I can't understand what you mean,
> > Is it the lining?? surely silk is more authentic than cotton,a later
> > cheap replacement used by Aero Beacon, and possibly others, no
proof of
> > that yet.
>
> Not to stir up the silk/cotton debate again, I'll quote Marc, "I've
never seen
> this shade on any original A-2 even from some early samples dated
1932,
> 1933, and 1937..." Yeah, I read what you told him about that, but you
are
> quick to contradict HPA on their claims.
All I can say is it copied from an origial lining, I wish I did know
which maker it would close this one forever. Up till now its been the
fact we use silk that seemed to p*ss everyone off now its the colur.
ChasHPA assured us all he had documentary proof of the use of cotton in
1937. Its very possible, but when I asked repeatedly to see a faxed
copy, after which I would acknolege the fact publicly. A ful two months
has passed without a word or a fax about it. I was very quick to admit
myself that the Aero Beacon jackets tested positive for cotton lining,
explains the poor performance. Broncho tested positive for silk, who
knows for sure who used what, the problem as Marc W. pointed out is
that the two materials feel identical. If Chas shows me his proof I
will be happy, because I will have another piece of information in the
A2 jigsaw. I'm far more intersted in the real story rather than the
grand "spin" that going round. Why by the way did you omit to mention
that Marc W. said he would not have known the Aero jacket was silk
lined had he not be told??
God, this is getting boring It's all been said before.
>
> > Brass zip ? well check Sweetings book out, alloy was only used as an
> > alternative when brass became scarce, and vast numbers of sheepkins
> > were rendered useless by the inferior zips, his words not mine. A
brass
> > made in USA Talon must be more original than a "Asian Bootleg"( or
> > whatever its called )Talon. non original???????????? PLEASE!
>
> To quote Marc again, "The zipper is a modern make and style brass
Talon
> zip." Modern.
Are all the makers not using modern zips? Where are these "asian
Talons" coming from "Back to the Future" of from a factory working in
the year 2000
> > We use original spec 100% pure new wool jersey We don't use cheap
> > cotton/wool mix cuffing which is also unoriginal, and of very poor
> > service, just check out all the misshapen cotton t shirts in your
local
> > Thrift Store. New Wool retains its elasticity.
>
> And again, "...Aero makes use of single weave knits on the cuffs
rather than
> the double weave typical of original A-2s." Having not seen every
> manufacturer's example of an A-2, I suppose there could be some with
single
> weave, but the majority appear to be double.
The MAJORITY not all, as wessaid over and over we used the best long
term performing original component. Aero cuffs dont stretch over the
leather at the cuff, even after 17 years of wear, we know that as there
is a 1983 Aero jacket in the factory with its original jersey, heavily
worn , very grubby but in no need of relacement. I have seen double
weave knit on a BRAND NEW jacket stretch over the leather at the cuff.
Check Flight brand Catalogue 2000, Real McCoy Japan page, look closely
at the cuffing, its starting to protrudepast the leather already, I
imaging it's wool, lets hope so, or it's going to look dreadful in 6
months.The loose weave on a two weave cuff is also more prone to
holing, we have USN two weave which we tested and found unsatisfactory,
theres load here, you can have some if you want, send a sae, it's no
good to Aero!
>
> And, something that hasn't been mentioned; being a graphic artist for
17
> years, I noticed that the AAF "decal" uses a type font that did not
exist
> until after World War 2. Not being the type of Jacketeer to adorn my
A-2 with
> a decal, that detail doesn't matter much to me - but you may want to
check
> into it.
I'll check that in the morning, we were considering a slightly
different wing pattern to the current one anyway, if you are right, and
I have no reason to doubt you as you are, I am sure, far better
informed on graphics than myself. My decal designer is NOT an aviation
buff so I doubt if the significance would have crossed his mind. Thanks
for the advice.
See we do learn something new EVERY day, I wish more of us absorbed
that knowledge more gratiously than others. I really hope I have
addressed all your concerns AVG, and I only hope everyone else is as
interested in Aero as your good self, I'm sure Mark Moye will gladly
fit you out with one of our civilian jackets,should you wish to down
that road.
Ken @ Aero
aur...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > This is an A-2 reproduction jacket discussion group, first and
> > foremost, we may discuss a large number other things but we
primarily
> > deal with A-2’s. Through a fair and unbiased evaluation the current
> > Aero A-2 didn’t quite make the cut when it comes to making a “stitch
> > nazi” garment.
>
> replica, for one reason, and one reason only. The was not one single
> maker during WWII that got EVERYTHING right. The nearest was possibly
> Cable Raincoat, but our company is called Aero Leather Clothging Co.
we
> are not Cable Raincoat, we are not even Aero Leather Clothing, Beacon
> NY. We are about to takke delivery of a new label, but sorry folks, it
> WONT have Beacon NY on the label, because we are not IN Beacon. We
> won't move into "fantasy" factories. The only jacket we
> could "legitimately" copy "stitch for stitc" would be the old Aero,
but
> Christ, have you looked at the way THEY were thrown together, and the
> p*ss poor quality of the lining. NO THANK YOU
>
Jeez man, if the Jackets where as bad as you say then why didn't you
just pay for Cable Raincoats namesake? I personally don't find
original Aero's to be that decrepit. I don't think I could ever put
them into the sort of broke down condition that wartime produced on the
jackets.
aur...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> .
> >
> > Understood, but not all of the components are authentic to the
> originals.
> > So, it is less of an A-2 to those of us who are looking for more
> authenticity
> > in our jacket(s).
> >
> Is it the lining?? surely silk is more authentic than cotton,a later
> cheap replacement used by Aero Beacon, and possibly others, no proof
of
> that yet.
It obviously wasn't a cheap replacement and the proof is in the
Jackets. Besides, your bright red silk lining is a color that I have
never seen in an A-2, print or otherwise.
> Brass zip ? well check Sweetings book out, alloy was only used as an
> alternative when brass became scarce, and vast numbers of sheepkins
> were rendered useless by the inferior zips, his words not mine. A
brass
> made in USA Talon must be more original than a "Asian Bootleg"( or
> whatever its called )Talon. non original???????????? PLEASE!
I thought Charles settled this. They aren't really "bootlegs"
or "inferior", hell, I consider the modern talons to be a damn sight
inferior based on what I've seen when you compare them to the
reproductions.
> We use original spec 100% pure new wool jersey We don't use cheap
> cotton/wool mix cuffing which is also unoriginal, and of very poor
> service, just check out all the misshapen cotton t shirts in your
local
> Thrift Store. New Wool retains its elasticity.
And who exactly uses this stuff??
> Cant be the horsehide, we use North American and European Horse, That
> must be it.....just order US Horsehide......no that cant be it can it,
> because that precludes ELC???????????
> I AM STUMPED..........please enlighten me, where are we going wrong.
> It's not made in USA or Australia that all I can think of!
>
Yes, your horsehide is nice, pretty much the equal of Eastman, or
anyone else. It is nothing special though. The Unauthentic and non-
typical features on your jackets sort of spoil the effect.
aur...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8l4rmt$2s1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> avg...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > Is it the lining?? surely silk is more authentic than cotton,a
later
> > > cheap replacement used by Aero Beacon, and possibly others, no
> proof of
> > > that yet.
> >
> never seen
> > this shade on any original A-2 even from some early samples dated
> 1932,
> > 1933, and 1937..." Yeah, I read what you told him about that, but
you
> are
> > quick to contradict HPA on their claims.
>
> All I can say is it copied from an origial lining, I wish I did know
> which maker it would close this one forever. Up till now its been the
> fact we use silk that seemed to p*ss everyone off now its the colur.
We didn't know what the color was till a short while ago.
> > > To quote Marc again, "The zipper is a modern make and style brass
> Talon
> > zip." Modern.
> Are all the makers not using modern zips? Where are these "asian
> Talons" coming from "Back to the Future" of from a factory working in
> the year 2000
>
I think it would be best to refer to the other Talons as Reproduction
Talons. In the "just manufactuered last month" scheme of things, yes
the Reproductions are modern.
> > > We use original spec 100% pure new wool jersey We don't use cheap
> > > cotton/wool mix cuffing which is also unoriginal, and of very poor
> > > service, just check out all the misshapen cotton t shirts in your
> local
> > > Thrift Store. New Wool retains its elasticity.
> >
> > And again, "...Aero makes use of single weave knits on the cuffs
> rather than
> > the double weave typical of original A-2s." Having not seen every
> > manufacturer's example of an A-2, I suppose there could be some with
> single
> > weave, but the majority appear to be double.
>
> The MAJORITY not all
Exactly, it is a non typical thing, which turns people off.
ken...@my-deja.com
secondly, we have never been in the "forgery" business, for in art
world terms, "signing" a piece of work, identical in every way (sic) to
the original piece, is legally considered forging. (However good or
bad, although obviously, some go undetected, some end up in court,
while some are just too obvious to fool anyone)
The art word term "copyist" fits Aero better. We produce work "in the
style of" or "after" or "from the school of", and this work is carried
out, not to mislead (whether today or in 2025). I have recently finish
two "copyist" Piet Mondrains, (in the style of, not a replica of any
one PM painting) neither of which I signed, if any later owners want to
add "PM" and date to the works, its a bit like adding a name tag of a
known ace to a replica A2, no harm done I suppose, but there are a lot
of rouges out there, the words, "recent, ebay, and B3" spring to mind
Ken @ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
> Exactly, it is a non typical thing, which turns people off.
>
detail, check what Aero owners have to say, I have yet to read even the
smallest critisism of Aero products from an end user, PLEASE and I mean
this sincerely, if there is ANY Aero owner reading who is unhappy in
any way with either our product or our customer service..... I URGE YOU
PLEASE POST YOUR CRITISISM, and while WE are putting ourselves on the
line, any other makers willing ask thier customers to match this offer
in public. That's how much faith I have in Aero products, maybe only
15% of which are military gasrments
ken...@my-deja.com
aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8l4ib6$qop$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > .
> > >
> > > Understood, but not all of the components are authentic to the
> > originals.
> > > So, it is less of an A-2 to those of us who are looking for more
> > authenticity
> > > in our jacket(s).
> > >
> > Is it the lining?? surely silk is more authentic than cotton,a later
> > cheap replacement used by Aero Beacon, and possibly others, no proof
> of
> > that yet.
>
Silk is around five times the price of cotton, and outwears cotton to a
similar ratio.
and the proof is in the
> Jackets. Besides, your bright red silk lining is a color that I have
> never seen in an A-2, print or otherwise.
It's certaintly NOT bright red, the photos dont reproduce the cour
properly, you are getting our RUST, for thats the colour, mixed up with
thr Red Silk Aces A2's, try McCoys if you want one of these.
>
> > Brass zip ? well check Sweetings book out, alloy was only used as an
> > alternative when brass became scarce, and vast numbers of sheepkins
> > were rendered useless by the inferior zips, his words not mine. A
> brass
> > made in USA Talon must be more original than a "Asian Bootleg"( or
> > whatever its called )Talon. non original???????????? PLEASE!
>
> I thought Charles settled this. They aren't really "bootlegs"
> or "inferior", hell, I consider the modern talons to be a damn sight
> inferior based on what I've seen when you compare them to the
> reproductions.
I did answer this in another mail,If you believe the Talon USA zip to
be inferior, I'll send you a couple of Talon USA zip, if you can get
an Asian one,as your buddy at HPA, then test them yourself, I will
trust your honesty in reporting the findings,we've tested several so I
already KNOW the outcome, so if you are looking to endorse the Asian
zip, save yourself the bother. If you are REALLY intersted email your
address to aero.l...@virgin.net the zips will leave today.
>
> > We use original spec 100% pure new wool jersey We don't use cheap
> > cotton/wool mix cuffing which is also unoriginal, and of very poor
> > service, just check out all the misshapen cotton t shirts in your
> local
> > Thrift Store. New Wool retains its elasticity.
>
> And who exactly uses this stuff??
Eastman for one, check the jersey content label on the ELC A2 in
MarcW.'s evaluation of the A2's
>
> > Cant be the horsehide, we use North American and European Horse,
That
> > must be it.....just order US Horsehide......no that cant be it can
it,
> > because that precludes ELC???????????
> > I AM STUMPED..........please enlighten me, where are we going wrong.
> > It's not made in USA or Australia that all I can think of!
> >
>
> Yes, your horsehide is nice, pretty much the equal of Eastman, or
> anyone else.
Please enlighten me, when and where did you see our Horsehide?
It is nothing special though.
ASW, you spoilt it just when I thought we were being given credit for
SOMETHING
The Unauthentic and non-
> typical features on your jackets sort of spoil the effect.
Non Typical? not non original? what the f*uck happened to individuality?
Charles HPA
<major snip>
> And who exactly uses this stuff??
Cotton blended into wool knit? I have no clue. I've never run into any
repro A-2's that use cotton/wool blends on knit. The makers who are even
partly serious use pure wool, the less serious will defer to polyester or
poly/cotton, or whatever is available w/out getting into custom
manufacturing or special order.
>
--
Chas.HPA
ken...@my-deja.com
Charles HPA <charl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8l6dqd$7oi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> aur...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> <major snip>
>
> > And who exactly uses this stuff??
>
> Cotton blended into wool knit? I have no clue. I've never run into
any
> repro A-2's that use cotton/wool blends on knit. The makers who are
even
> partly serious use pure wool, the less serious will defer to
polyester or
> poly/cotton, or whatever is available w/out getting into custom
> manufacturing or special order.
> >
>
> --
> Chas.HPA
I don't think Gary has put you in the picture, Chas, check the white
content label on the "Roughwear"repro on Acmedepot, evaluation page,
you'll see it says Cotton/Wool, Is it a mix or is import duty less on a
cotton blend and this is a ploy????? I must admit to beinf astonished
when I saw it, saving cash on lining is one thing, but the knit is a
VERY important component.
Ken @ Aero
Charles HPA
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I don't think Gary has put you in the picture, Chas, check the white
> content label on the "Roughwear"repro on Acmedepot, evaluation page,
> you'll see it says Cotton/Wool, Is it a mix or is import duty less on a
> cotton blend and this is a ploy????? I must admit to beinf astonished
> when I saw it, saving cash on lining is one thing, but the knit is a
> VERY important component.
>
> Ken @ Aero
>
Ken, I stated some time ago that I would neither read nor respond to your
posts any longer. Because you have directly linked this post to me I
read it. I shall respond *only* because the answer is of benefit to the
overall forum, and is so directed. The rest of your posting contains
nothing but the twisted and inflamatory innuendos, insinuations and
distortions that I have found to be synonymous with the "Aero Presence"
and related website., and thus I shall maintain my stance and refrain
from responding.
ELC uses several different specific declaration labels on imports to the
USA that are generic to certain jackets and accessories, all of which
were specified by HPA to conform *exactly* to US customs and FTC
regulations. The A-2 labels state the trim as wool & cotton. FTC
guidelines can consider trim to not only be the knit, but also the
authentic zip tape which, unlike modern zip tape (as used by Aero, LW, US
Authentic, FS, etc.) is 100% cotton on the ELC A-2's. Accordingly, the
trim, in conformity w/ the FTC, is as stated: wool & cotton. The wool
knit, as listed in the ELC Golden Book and web site, is now and always
has been nothing but 100% wool.
Some ELC sheepskin jacket declaration labels state the lining as cotton &
wool. Would anyone actually think that there is somehow cotton woven
into the sheepskin? I think not. That label is written as such to
include a sheepskin jacket, such as a USN M-445, which has some small
amounts of cotton reinforcements within the lining that do not function
as trim, as well as to cover jackets (our Luft. sheepskin) that the FTC
might consider the cotton zip tape large enough in percentage to fall
under the designation of more lining than trim.
Import duty is identical in amount on 100% wool or 100% cotton trim from
the UK.
--
Chas.HPA
stringf...@my-deja.com
avg...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > They have ALL components of the original A-2, not just some. The
> > patterns are cut straight from original Aeros, and they have added
> > better quality materials than the originals and have put them in the
> > same places as those were on originals. It is in no way less of an
A-2
> > than any other maker's version out there.
>
originals.
> So, it is less of an A-2 to those of us who are looking for more
authenticity
> in our jacket(s).
>
I can see where you are coming from. After reading this forum for a
year I became so brainwashed that I thought just like you. There is
nothing unauthentic on the Aero in my mind. What do you consider not
authentic on it besides what has already been mentioned(jersey/zip),
which has been put on there to last much much longer than anything else
around?
I wish Mr. Eastman were on here to tell us whether he has decided to
redesign the Star because of the super-long sleeve length, which was
copied from an original. He supposedly came across another original
Star that did not have the long sleeves, so it may have been just a
fluke that one had long sleeves. Does that mean that they are
reproducing a $600 fluke? I don't know, that is a judgement call. It
is fascinating to learn about how originals varied so much depending on
whoever is at the sewing machine at the time. Individuality is a good
thing.
Timbo
but also yourself with that statement. If you haven't got anything of
integrity to contribute, go back to lurking.
--
Tim
aur...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > Exactly, it is a non typical thing, which turns people off.
> >
> A sentance that also fits your harrassment of Aero, down to the
last
> detail
What harassment?
> , check what Aero owners have to say, I have yet to read even the
> smallest critisism of Aero products from an end user
Did you skip Marc’s review?
> , and while WE are putting ourselves on the
> line, any other makers willing ask thier customers to match this offer
> in public.
That is one of the primary purposes of this forum. No one needs
manufacture permission.
> That's how much faith I have in Aero products, maybe only
> 15% of which are military gasrments
>
That 15% of your product line is what we would like to focus on here.
Aero uses top quality materials on everything they make that much is
certain, but the Military jackets are held to a higher standard than
your civil wear stuff because your civil wear garments don't follow
patterns set in stone, or even loose patterns as with the A-2. Hell,
nobody here ever discusses the Flight Suits "raider" or "police"
leather jackets.
Right now I don't know where exactly to rank your company as a
reproduction maker with relationship to the A-2 jackets you make.
Your leather is the equal of most other high quality makers. Yet the
rest of the jacket seems to be an A-2 in the broadest sense of the
word. One could even say the jacket is wrought with errors not
anything like the standard A-2 Eastman produces, which is marketed (and
rightly so) as an A-2 in its most typical configuration/form.
aur...@my-deja.com
to a
> similar ratio.
I was talking about back in the 40's, not present day.
> It's certaintly NOT bright red, the photos dont reproduce the cour
> properly, you are getting our RUST, for thats the colour, mixed up
with
> thr Red Silk Aces A2's, try McCoys if you want one of these.
>
It is red. I wouldn't even call it a "rust" red, I'd call it a strait
up red, based on the sample you sent me.
> I did answer this in another mail,If you believe the Talon USA zip to
> be inferior, I'll send you a couple of Talon USA zip, if you can get
> an Asian one,as your buddy at HPA, then test them yourself, I will
> trust your honesty in reporting the findings,we've tested several so I
> already KNOW the outcome, so if you are looking to endorse the Asian
> zip, save yourself the bother. If you are REALLY intersted email your
> address to aero.l...@virgin.net the zips will leave today.
>
What kind of damn tests am I supposed to do on them? Jump up and down
on them? Dunk them in water? Burn them?
It's not like I have $10,000 pieces of machinery that test tolerances
of metal lying about in the garage!
> Eastman for one, check the jersey content label on the ELC A2 in
> MarcW.'s evaluation of the A2's
>
They do not.
> Please enlighten me, when and where did you see our Horsehide?
>
You sent me samples.
> The Unauthentic and non-
> > typical features on your jackets sort of spoil the effect.
>
> Non Typical? not non original? what the f*uck happened to
individuality?
>
I don’t know, you tell me! The Unauthentic things on your A-2
outnumber the non-typical things on the jacket, which definitely
outnumber the Historically accurate/typical things on the jacket.
stringf...@my-deja.com
Timbo <timbo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8l7ch0$uco$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> stringf...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8l4ghs$p92$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > avg...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > They have ALL components of the original A-2, not just some.
The
> > > > patterns are cut straight from original Aeros, and they have
added
> > > > better quality materials than the originals and have put them in
> the
> > > > same places as those were on originals. It is in no way less of
> an
> > A-2
> > > > than any other maker's version out there.
> > >
> > > Understood, but not all of the components are authentic to the
> > originals.
> > > So, it is less of an A-2 to those of us who are looking for more
> > authenticity
> > > in our jacket(s).
> > >
> > > AVGFan
> > >
> > year I became so brainwashed that I thought just like you. There is
> > nothing unauthentic on the Aero in my mind. What do you consider
not
> > authentic on it besides what has already been mentioned(jersey/zip),
> > which has been put on there to last much much longer than anything
> else
> > around?
> >
> > I wish Mr. Eastman were on here to tell us whether he has decided to
> > redesign the Star because of the super-long sleeve length, which was
> > copied from an original. He supposedly came across another original
> > Star that did not have the long sleeves, so it may have been just a
> > fluke that one had long sleeves. Does that mean that they are
> > reproducing a $600 fluke? I don't know, that is a judgement call.
It
> > is fascinating to learn about how originals varied so much depending
> on
> > whoever is at the sewing machine at the time. Individuality is a
good
> > thing.
> >
> but also yourself with that statement. If you haven't got anything of
> integrity to contribute, go back to lurking.
> --
> Tim
>
> Before you buy.
Thanks Tim, you just made the point which caused me to start this
thread excruciatingly clear.
Timbo
You are welcome to you own interpetation (though why would I
deliberately post something that supported your argument?!)...but I see
it as fortifying my original post which in short was a complaint about
the lack of etiquette and respect for the forum coming from the "Aero
presence", and the "brainwashed" statement is a continuance of just
that.
I hold to my original point from the other day which I still don't
think was answered acccountably by the people it was addressed to.
However out of respect to Marc, I'm not going to continue this
discussion.
avg...@my-deja.com
> Brainwashed?! Come on, give it a rest. Not only did you insult AVGfan,
> but also yourself with that statement. If you haven't got anything of
> integrity to contribute, go back to lurking.
> --
> Tim
Thanks for the defense Timbo. However, I always find it difficult to feel
insulted over the internet, unless a bunch of four letter words are thrown at
me or my family.
Brainwashed? Yes, by the original flyers and the mystique of the jackets they
wore.
ken...@my-deja.com
Kenal0
chapman...@my-deja.com
> > I think we all should grow up and act mature, MISTER POOPIE PANTS!
> Kenal0
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Let me correct you - that's DOCTOR POOPIE PANTS!
ken...@my-deja.com
> trim, in conformity w/ the FTC, is as stated: wool & cotton. The
wool
> knit, as listed in the ELC Golden Book and web site, is now and always
> has been nothing but 100% wool.
>
having been at Beltring we saw, firsthand, several used Eastman A2
jackets, AND spoke to customers who were dissatisfied with the
performance of the ELC jersey and I find it hard to believe that PURE
NEW WOOL would stretch the way the cuffing on these jackets have done.
I am not knocking ELC make up, but you folk out there who own an ELC
A2 are YOU 100% happy with the performance and the retention of shape
of the jersey components???? I have never seen wool produce the wear
characteristics of the cuffing in particular.
Had the components of Aero jackets not been "ripped to shreds" by
posters who had not even seen the jasckets, I would not be making this
posting.
Ken @ Aero
swing...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I find it hard to believe that PURE
> NEW WOOL would stretch the way the cuffing on these jackets have done.
> I am not knocking ELC make up,
What a load of shit. How stupid do you think we are? This is exactly
what you are doing! Someone points out that your single weave knit is
unauthentic, so you make up lies about ELC, to promote your product.
> but you folk out there who own an ELC
> A2 are YOU 100% happy with the performance and the retention of shape
> of the jersey components????
Yep. I've had several ELC products with knit cuffs and waistbands, and
they have all stretched and worn differently. It depends on how wet
they get (that is the *main* factor, right there), and how much they
are worn. Anybody who has looked at more than one vintage picture of
an A-2, knows that the knit stretched out, and in many different
ways.
> Had the components of Aero jackets not been "ripped to shreds" by
> posters who had not even seen the jasckets, I would not be making this
> posting.
Oh yes, someone points out a fact, that single weave knit is
unauthentic (a fact which I don't think you'll deny), and they are
shredding your product.
Timbo
> > trim, in conformity w/ the FTC, is as stated: wool & cotton. The
> wool
> > knit, as listed in the ELC Golden Book and web site, is now and
always
> > has been nothing but 100% wool.
> >
> If you say so, ChasHPA far be it from me to doubt your word, however,
> having been at Beltring we saw, firsthand, several used Eastman A2
> jackets, AND spoke to customers who were dissatisfied with the
> NEW WOOL would stretch the way the cuffing on these jackets have done.
> A2 are YOU 100% happy with the performance and the retention of shape
> characteristics of the cuffing in particular.
> posters who had not even seen the jasckets, I would not be making this
> posting.
>
to the above. I have an early 1990's Eastman A2 that has been "been
around the block" (and then some) which is still hanging in there, cuff
elasticity wise, and will be good for a few more seasons when some
small holes will be the basis for recuffing.
I hope I am not being lumped into the "ripping to shreds" category, my
problem with Aero was and is the lack of common respect and resulting
negative disruption in this forum in general. It has never been about
the jackets themselves. I would never comment on a jacket I've never
handled, unless it looked blatantly terrible from a website etc.
--
Tim
ken...@my-deja.com
> Oh yes, someone points out a fact, that single weave knit is
> unauthentic (a fact which I don't think you'll deny),
>
Sorry Swing, I must agree with Marc W. on this one, what he said is
that it's rare but NOT unoriginal, we chose to use this style knit as,
with wear, it "assumes" the profile of the best wearing two weaves,
without the excesive stretching or holing assosiated with most double
weave cuffing, and yes, you are correct that wear patterns of two way
weave do vary greatly, yet the single weave is exceptionally
consistent, I wonder why you think we would use it otherwise, surely no-
one could suggest we are trying to cut costs if that were the case
the first thing we would drop is our $20 a yard silk lining in favour
of a cotton version ($4 a yard), when even an authority such as Marc W.
can't even tell the difference between the two, either by touch or
appearance, what have we to gain by using this lining??? except to
better serve our end user.
Your buddy,
Ken@Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
my
> problem with Aero was and is the lack of common respect and resulting
> negative disruption in this forum in general. It has never been about
No, Tim, I certaintly don't recall ANY hysterical outbursts from you.
However there are certain posters can't type two lines without dropping
a jacket makers name in like a punctuation mark, so to a few members at
least it IS all about the jackets, no names, no pack drill, but just
have a browse back and check it out!
I did get the impression that everyone, myself included, had learened a
great deal thru the various facts regarding original AND repro jackets
that have come to light as a result of the good natured banter flying
both ways across the big pond. That seemed to be the consencus of
opinion when the suggestion was made that we all bow out, I personally
would like to have Gary Eastman, Sefton (now theres a decent A2 maker
that I saw for the first time this weekend, heard of them?), McCoy san,
Flight Suits, Buzz Rickson, and especially the entertaining Stuart of
LW, join in the forum, it's bound to benefit the jacket buyer in the
long run, don't you agree? Should they not speak their piece in public
for all to see? No hiding place for any waffle here, is there?
swing...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Oh yes, someone points out a fact, that single weave knit is
> > unauthentic (a fact which I don't think you'll deny),
> >
> Sorry Swing, I must agree with Marc W. on this one, what he said is
> that it's rare but NOT unoriginal,
Where did he say that? I don't recall it from his review. The only
sinlge weave knit I've seen on vintage A-2s, is *replacement* knit.
> we chose to use this style knit as,
> with wear, it "assumes" the profile of the best wearing two weaves,
> without the excesive stretching or holing assosiated with most double
> weave cuffing, and yes, you are correct that wear patterns of two way
> weave do vary greatly, yet the single weave is exceptionally
> consistent, I wonder why you think we would use it otherwise,
You've already told us why you use it, many times. Because it is
sturdier and doesn't stretch. My guess is that it's used because it's
easier to get and is cheaper to make, plus the having the qualities you
listed.
> surely no-
> one could suggest we are trying to cut costs if that were the case
> the first thing we would drop is our $20 a yard silk lining in favour
> of a cotton version ($4 a yard), when even an authority such as Marc
W.
> can't even tell the difference between the two, either by touch or
> appearance, what have we to gain by using this lining??? except to
> better serve our end user.
Ah yes, bring the silk thing up again... Why do I think you use silk
linings (and constantly bring the subject up around here)? Because it
sells jackets, plain and simple. In a market that has many different
competitors, you need something to make your jacket stand out. By your
own admission, you aren't out to please the stitch for stitch guys, but
you are above the price range of the cheapo jackets... so silk linings
is a nice gimmick to get the uninformed neewbies' attention, and sell
him a jacket. Yep, silk was in the original spec (but so where several
other features you leave out of your jackets. I guess they are
flaws...), and is fine to use in your jackets, because you aren't out
to replicate a specific contract. But don't keep telling me that that
is the lining that was in most original A-2s, and should be in my repro.
Timbo
entertainment. I personally (and I know I'm probably the exception)
don't want any more manufacturers or reps. on here unless they either
have Charles' sense of honor or would be watched very closely and
consistently. If they can prove to be here in the spirit of a
jacketeer, great but I just think it's too hard for most people to take
criticism of their products in a forum where much of the talk is just
that. I don't think I could do it.
I thought it unfair when this all came up a while back that Charles got
lumped into the same category as Aero, and didn't think it right he be
possibly voted out in the same package, as he has contributed a lot of
valuable information while keeping his Eastman ties off to the side. A
look through the old threads, though tedious, will confirm this. And
yes, we have had banter here, of course, but it was almost always in
good nature and much more based on logical and respectful argument as
opposed to some of the stuff that's been out here lately. I do like the
idea of a place where the manufactures would represent their products
and we could ask questions, but then again most have websites which can
serve the same practical purpose anyway. Yes, I have heard of Sefton,
but know nothing about them...I've just seen their ads flipping through
old issues of "flypast". Thanks.
--
Tim
ken...@my-deja.com
Without wishing to sound conceited, I honestlt feel I have a vast pool
of experience from which forum members are more than welcome to benefit
from.
I tend to look at jackets in two categoties, most importantly the
originals, I first got an A2 in 1967, and have never has less than one
at a time since, but as a time served tailor, I look at them both
asthetically and critically. I am also lucky enough to have dealt in
these for nearly 30 years and at a time when they were both plentiful
and largely unwanted, and I am only to happy to pass on any knowledge
gleaned in that time, I do feel, however, that some memnbers are
suspicious of the element of"spin" that does exist on this forum, and I
for one would be far happier to concentrate on the history of the
original A2's, God know's I've handled enough.
As far as replica's go, I tend to look at these differntly than some
forum members, show me a ten year old + replica, not a new one, THAT is
the proof of the pudding, how about getting Marc W, to evaluate some
heavily worn OLD replicas, I'm happy to throw in a 1983 and a 1987
jacket, sure lots of us made minor errors back then, but lets see how
these have stood up to life in the fast lane, surely this is what its
all about, which will be around in 60 years time if the shit has been
well and truely kicked out of them in the manner that the AAF jackets
were subjected to, not the odd visit to an airshow?
The Sefton jacket I saw at Beltring was quite an well worn one, and had
picked up real character and held it's shape well. The poorest A2 I
spotted was a RMNZ version, the most irritating was seeing the first
ever Aero A2 made in 1891 (and I'd completely forgotten it, and it was
2 years later before we made another),then having the owner refuse
£1000 for it, we desperately wanted it for our archives, I did get
photos I'll ask get Mark M. to post them if they come out OK .
Any questions folks?
ken@Aero
stringf...@my-deja.com
Is Sefton made by Robin Mott of A-2-Art in the UK? If it is, I have
one of his catalogs and skin samples. One of the pictures is of the
label, Sefton Clo. Co. Beacon, NY (interestingly enough). He only
makes them out of steerhide I think, and very thick steer at that
judging from the swatches. I would have tried it out except for the
fact he doesn't stock regular sizes, you have to send him your
measurements and he'll make you one based on those. I don't trust
myself enough! BTW isn't he a member of the forum? I thought I saw
his name way back sometime ago.
ken...@my-deja.com
> Is Sefton made by Robin Mott of A-2-Art in the UK? If it is, I have
> one of his catalogs and skin samples. One of the pictures is of the
> label, Sefton Clo. Co. Beacon, NY (interestingly enough). He only
> makes them out of steerhide I think, and very thick steer at that
> judging from the swatches. I would have tried it out except for the
> fact he doesn't stock regular sizes, you have to send him your
> measurements and he'll make you one based on those. I don't trust
> myself enough! BTW isn't he a member of the forum? I thought I saw
> his name way back sometime ago.
>
Can't tell you much about them , except their steerhide comes from our
Chicago Horsehide tannery, no idea why they don't use horse, maybe it's
a equestrian thing, Sefton is Liverpool is Aintree is The Grand
National, maybe he's a horse lover.
The size thing explains why the girl wearing the jacket was over 6'
tall, had a 40" yet it was longer on her than my 40" (I'm 5'10")must
have been extralong, Take care of bespoke A2 claims, the styling of an
A2 does not lend itself to bespoke tailoring, without a Saville Row
level apprenticeship at least, the best any cutter can do re "bespoke
cutting" is to add or subtract fractions from a basic A2 block, and
that is NOT proper "made to measure" (which HAS to have at least one
fitting)so don't get fooled by this claim, The Sefton A2 however had
worn real nice, good substance, the label made no sense though, why
Beacon??? Certaintly looked better than any other (non Aero) replica I
saw at Beltring.
Ken @ Aero
ken...@my-deja.com
> sinlge weave knit I've seen on vintage A-2s, is *replacement* knit.
>
may be in an email?? I'll try to find time to look tomorrow, but if you
are REALLY interested, perhaps I could mail you a shot of a six month
old Aero cuff area, it would show you what I mean about the cuff
developing this "two weacve" appearance without bagging over the
leather, send me your email address and it will be with you tommorrow,
aero.l...@virgin.net
> You've already told us why you use it, many times. Because it is
> sturdier and doesn't stretch. My guess is that it's used because it's
> easier to get and is cheaper to make,
Actually No, it's marginally more expensive than the two weave as the
tighter knit pattern takes up a fraction more wool than the looser
double weve we tried for a few months "road testing"
plus the having the qualities you
> listed.
>
> Ah yes, bring the silk thing up again... Why do I think you use silk
> linings (and constantly bring the subject up around here)? Because it
> sells jackets, plain and simple.
Of course it does because it's better, why else does it does silk cost
so much, never bought your girl friend silk undies? you ought to try
it, they'd make her feel much more special that the old cotton gear,
then you could get into some real swingloving!
In a market that has many different
> competitors, you need something to make your jacket stand out.
The sheer quality does that.
By your
> own admission, you aren't out to please the stitch for stitch guys,
but
> you are above the price range of the cheapo jackets... so silk linings
> is a nice gimmick to get the uninformed neewbies' attention, and sell
> him a jacket. Yep, silk was in the original spec (but so where
several
> other features you leave out of your jackets. I guess they are
> flaws...),
Correct, are you finally coming round to the idea of buying the best
possible A2?
and is fine to use in your jackets, because you aren't out
> to replicate a specific contract. But don't keep telling me that that
> is the lining that was in most original A-2s,
Go prove me wrong if you REALLY believe that, I've heard all about the
supposed "1937 documentary" proof/waffle that "alleges" otherwise, but
until I see it, or speak to any "real deal authority" who has seen it,
then sorry Swimng, but I have to believe it is as "pie in the sky" as
putting an ghost factory name and address in a fantasy jacket. We
Highlanders live in the real world, perhaps if your anscestors had as
much sh*t thrown at them as the Highlanders had to put up with you'd
join me on Planet Earth.
You old pal
Ken @ Aero
and should be in my repro.
>
swing...@my-deja.com
ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Of course it does because it's better, why else does it does silk cost
> so much, never bought your girl friend silk undies?
Yep, and they didn't feel like anything that I would confuse with
cotton. Same with my silk shirts and ties.
> are you finally coming round to the idea of buying the best
> possible A2?
Yeah pops, I've already got it.
> Go prove me wrong if you REALLY believe that, I've heard all about the
> supposed "1937 documentary" proof/waffle that "alleges" otherwise, but
> until I see it, or speak to any "real deal authority" who has seen it,
> then sorry Swimng, but I have to believe it is as "pie in the sky" as
> putting an ghost factory name and address in a fantasy jacket.
Charles is never gonna send you that info, no matter how much you
whine. I think anyone in this forum who has half a brain, understands
that you don't share certain info with your competitors.
> We
> Highlanders live in the real world, perhaps if your anscestors had as
> much sh*t thrown at them as the Highlanders had to put up with you'd
> join me on Planet Earth.
What the fuck does this have to do with anything? My guess is you
haven't had to put up with *any* of the shit your ancestors have, so I
don't know why you are even bringing this up.
dutchde...@my-deja.com
swing...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8lkvhq$8gl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Of course it does because it's better, why else does it does silk
cost
> > so much, never bought your girl friend silk undies?
>
> Yep, and they didn't feel like anything that I would confuse with
> cotton. Same with my silk shirts and ties.
>
> > are you finally coming round to the idea of buying the best
> > possible A2?
>
> Yeah pops, I've already got it.
>
> > Go prove me wrong if you REALLY believe that, I've heard all about
the
> > supposed "1937 documentary" proof/waffle that "alleges" otherwise,
but
> > until I see it, or speak to any "real deal authority" who has seen
it,
> > then sorry Swimng, but I have to believe it is as "pie in the sky"
as
> > putting an ghost factory name and address in a fantasy jacket.
>
> Charles is never gonna send you that info, no matter how much you
> whine. I think anyone in this forum who has half a brain, understands
> that you don't share certain info with your competitors.
Let's see if we've got this right. The gentleman in the near corner,
wearing silk trunks, insists his lining is correct. The gentleman in
the far corner, wearing cotton trunks, insists his lining is correct,
and invokes historical evidence which he declines to produce. Is there
anyone here--even with half a brain--who recalls a US senator from
Wisconsin who made a lot of trouble with similar evidence which he
would not reveal? He managed to spook people for a while, but
the "proof" did him no good in the end. Those who can not learn from
the past...well, except to the stray half-brainer here and there, the
rest of the quote is widely known. I wonder what patch Mr. Santayana
had on his A2.
Dutch>
Timbo
> it, they'd make her feel much more special that the old cotton gear,
> then you could get into some real swingloving!
>
> In a market that has many different
> > competitors, you need something to make your jacket stand out.
>
> The sheer quality does that.
>
> By your
> > own admission, you aren't out to please the stitch for stitch guys,
> but
> > you are above the price range of the cheapo jackets... so silk
linings
> > is a nice gimmick to get the uninformed neewbies' attention, and
sell
> > him a jacket. Yep, silk was in the original spec (but so where
> several
> > other features you leave out of your jackets. I guess they are
> > flaws...),
>
> possible A2?
>
> and is fine to use in your jackets, because you aren't out
> > to replicate a specific contract. But don't keep telling me that
that
> > is the lining that was in most original A-2s,
>
> supposed "1937 documentary" proof/waffle that "alleges" otherwise, but
> until I see it, or speak to any "real deal authority" who has seen it,
> then sorry Swimng, but I have to believe it is as "pie in the sky" as
> Highlanders live in the real world, perhaps if your anscestors had as
> much sh*t thrown at them as the Highlanders had to put up with you'd
> join me on Planet Earth.
>
> Ken @ Aero
>
> and should be in my repro.
> >
> Highlanders live in the real world, perhaps if your anscestors had as
> much sh*t thrown at them as the Highlanders had to put up with you'd
> join me on Planet Earth.
> Highlanders live in the real world, perhaps if your anscestors had as
> much sh*t thrown at them as the Highlanders had to put up with you'd
> join me on Planet Earth.
NOW do you understand what I've been talking about? COME ON PEOPLE,
WAKE UP.
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Tim
ken...@my-deja.com
> Let's see if we've got this right. The gentleman in the near corner,
> wearing silk trunks, insists his lining is correct. The gentleman in
> the far corner, wearing cotton trunks, insists his lining is correct,
> and invokes historical evidence which he declines to produce. Is there
> anyone here--even with half a brain--who recalls a US senator from
> Wisconsin who made a lot of trouble with similar evidence which he
> would not reveal? He managed to spook people for a while, but
> the "proof" did him no good in the end. Those who can not learn from
> the past...well, except to the stray half-brainer here and there, the
> rest of the quote is widely known. I wonder what patch Mr. Santayana
> had on his A2.
>
> Dutch>
Well said Dutch, you saved me the reply to Senator Swing, and put the
case far better than I could have ever done, but beware, "The Hounds of
the Baskervilles" may descend around your door, it,s not done to doubt
certain "experts" on this forum, whether they can produce proof or not,
when the proof isn't available "spin" seems acceptable.
Ken@Aero
Ken
ken...@my-deja.com
> ken...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Of course it does because it's better, why else does it does silk
cost
> > so much, never bought your girl friend silk undies?
>
> cotton.
siad garments, Ladies don't like guys who rush in and think later.
> > are you finally coming round to the idea of buying the best
> > possible A2?
>
> > We
> > Highlanders live in the real world, perhaps if your anscestors had
as
> > much sh*t thrown at them as the Highlanders had to put up with you'd
> > join me on Planet Earth.
>
> What the fuck does this have to do with anything? My guess is you
> haven't had to put up with *any* of the shit your ancestors have, so I
> don't know why you are even bringing this up.
>
Oh Oh, do I detect a distant relative of The Duchess od Sutherland
(The Hitler of The Highlands) in our midst? No, I've not had the same
tratment as my ancestors, neither have the Jews, the Native Americans
or the Afro Carribeans living in USA today, but I bet they know how it
feels to come from a heavily oppressed background. It's no way to carry
on a debate being insulting, perhaps we should just meet round the back
of the bikeshed and sort this out like men?
stringf...@my-deja.com
My guess is
In article <8lhpjk$rn4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com
swing...@my-deja.com wrote:
My guess is
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
You guess too much.