Shapeoko Spindle and Large format Router suggestions

[John Wathen]

All,

So the old harbor freight dremel on the shapeoko recently gave up the ghost, and after looking at shapeoko's website here:
http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Spindle_Options#Machine_Types
I noticed that they have a lot of spindle options available. 
This one specifically caught my eye, due to price and ease to integrate into the existing setup:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-FREE-1pcs-collet-ER11-the-CNC-Spindle-Motor-500W-power-supply-57-5mm-mounting-bracket/1545704249.html

It comes with the motor, collet, mounting block, and variable speed power supply.

A spindle is a purpose built motor and collet assembly designed for cnc routers.  This might be a piece of equipment we should also consider purchasing for our large format cnc router out of the gate, as it provides reliability and ease of control by the GCode software (you can tell the spindle when to turn on and off, and at what speed to run, all in GCode) 

Also, a word of warning:  If the large format cnc router is intended to be run for a long duration, such as doing ANY 3d milling or shaping, I would highly recommend we seriously consider getting a spindle instead of a router as the cutting motor, as the router is not built to be operated for long spans of time.  The cnc router spindles you can purchase online are watercooled for a reason.

Just some design and improvement suggestions.

Thanks all,

John Wathen

[Pablo Stewart-Harris]

I thought the same, never liked the dremels for the shapeoko, since the weight vs output and the small difference in price always made the spindle look a much better fit. Chris told me the other day the shapeoko has a new dremel and looks like it was working great carving wood. 

I think would be great to add a dedicated 3D printed or aluminum cnc'd mount and one of this to the shapeoko and then decide if this will be a good path for the big cnc. 

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[Bill]

Spindle motors have bearings different from your common drill or Dremel. They are meant to accommodate the side load of the bit pushing against the material in the x and y directions. Drills are meant to push down into the material, not side to side, so they tend to fail when used for milling (side loads).

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[John Wathen]

Look at the link, Pablo, it comes with the mounting block and everything! For 90 bucks it is almost a no-brainer upgrade for the shapeoko!

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[Lloyd Engebretsen]

I'm not sure about the weight of one of those DC spindles, but I'd caution against adding anything much larger/heavier than the original dremel tool to the shapeoko. The design of the X gantry on the original v1 Shapeoko is unfortunately not very rigid at all and causes the Z axis to have a lot of flex in it under the best of circumstances. Increasing the weight of the spindle is just going to compound the issue.

I'll also say that on the big CNC, unless we're planning to shell out a lot more money for a larger, water cooled DC spindle + powersupply, we're better off sticking with something like a DeWalt or Makita router. A 500W DC spindle is going to be way underpowered on the larger machine. Controlling spindle on/off is easy to do with a relay (my shapeoko at home is set up this way) and often there's a half decent speed control built into the router itself.

-Lloyd

[Bill]

Building our own DC motor speed control is a piece of cake. We might even already have what we need in the Barbie collection.

-Lloyd

 

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[John Olthoff]

Wait-- so for $90 we can upgrade that small CNC machine so it can cut aluminum? Seems like a no-brainer!

John Olthoff

607-229-7362

Sent from my iPhone

[Pablo Stewart-Harris]

John, I checked again more in detail the link and saw the mount, looks good. 

Lloyd, I was under the impression that the spindles are smaller and lighter than the dremel, and with the better side load power I thought it might be a relieve for gantry of the Shapeoko, maybe the research I did long time ago (when I built a pre order Shapeoko) was on a smaller spindles. 

John II, not sure if we can cut thought aluminum, but if it does, we should totally do this. Maybe we can get a kit without the PSU and use something we already have at the makerspace and save $40. 

[John Wathen]

Lloyd,

Your argument for not using a heavy spindle on the shapeoko is valid, and I agree we would need to verify that that little 500watt spindle is indeed compatible with the weight limits of the shapeoko z axis and gantry.


Alternatively, your arguments about not getting a production quality spindle for the CNC router don't hold a lot of ground to me.  A CNC machine is a useful tool, and in a makerspace, I have personally experienced that they get a LOT of mileage, and reliability is key to keeping members happy.  A spindle provides less runout at the collet, meaning sharper, cleaner cuts, and less dulled bits.  Members desiring to do 3d milling, while few and far between, will also benefit from a quality spindle and it will eliminate the risk of that user taking the blame for burning out a router by letting it run for an extended session.

No large format CNC routers I have seen in large makerspaces or production shops use routers as cutting tools. I believe the use of a router was strictly born out of necessity of the home user due to the previously unattainable price points of spindle motors and drives. 

Of course we wouldn't specify a tiny 500 watt spindle for a machine that large, that suggestion was strictly for a small format machine like the shapeoko. 
I have found high wattage spindles online with VFDs and water pumps for around 400 dollars shipped, see this example:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-2kw-Water-Cooled-CNC-Spindle-Motor-ER20-4-bearing-2-2kw-VFD-Inverter-80mm-Spindle/32648783577.html?spm=2114.01010208.8.4.vLPoyG
for this price, you are at about double the price of a good router, but I believe that that additional cost adder pays off dividends in the machine's reliability, functionality, and additional capability.

Again, this is simply a suggestion, and could be a future solution for the CNC router, but in my opinion, there is no time like the present.

[John Wathen]

I think that reliably milling aluminum is still out of the question on the shapeoko, regardless of cutting motor, used, simply due to the fact that the linear motion is translated by rubber belts which can stretch when a sideload force is seen on the end effector.

-Lloyd

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[John Wathen]

I should also point out that reliably is synonymous with safely in this case.

[H P Ladds]

Are you guys seeing the same thing I am? Sure there are alternatives, but this one is not available...right?

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[Lloyd Engebretsen]

It is possible to cut aluminum on the Shapeoko, even with the dremel tool. I've done it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without a whole lot of patience. You have to go extremely slowly and take ridiculously shallow cuts but it can be done. A more powerful spindle would probably help, but ultimately you're limited by the stiffness of the machine and the Z axis flex on the shapeoko just does not lend itself to cutting aluminum.

As to weights for the spindles, I can't find specs anywhere for the linked motor, but here's what inventables lists for the air cooled DC spindles:

• 300W weighs ~1.73 pounds
• 400W weighs ~1.99 pounds
• 600W weighs ~ 4.17 pounds
  

Considering the dremel tool probably weighs in the neighborhood of ~1.5 lbs I'd guess that 500W spindle is probably close to double the weight. It's not going to cause the machine to break or anything like that, but I'd be shocked if you could get it to cut decently. 

Finally my last 2 cents on the router/vs spindle argument for the big machine. I'm not necessarily opposed to upgrading to a watercooled DC spindle, but there are a few points against it that I think are worth considering.

• Buying the cheapest Chinese spindle we can source isn't likely to do much to improve reliability. Buying one of better quality isn't going to be cheap.
  
• The setup is more complex with having to keep track of the pump/cooling system. Considering we can't even get people to turn on the dust collection on the table saw I don't have high hopes that someone isn't going to forget to make sure the pump is running or to check the water level before running a long job. 
• If/when someone does manage to burn up a spindle, the CNC machine is going to be down for 1-2 weeks while we wait for a new one to sail over here. A router can be replaced within an hour or two if someone to runs to Home Depot or a couple of days if we order a replacement from amazon.

None of those issues are necessarily deal killers, but I think it's fair to say that the DC spindle is no more a perfect solution than the router is. Either option comes with some serious compromises, that's the nature of building the sort of machine we are.

-Lloyd

[John Wathen]

Sounds like you've identified the limitations of the shapeoko qualitatively, but until someone (maybe you!) can quantitatively define the limitations and capabilities of the shapeoko (perhaps in a guidebook or tutorial!), I would not go recommending cutting aluminum to anyone without significant machining and cnc experience; the membership as a whole has varying degrees of patience.  We should also take these as well as an additional plethora of guidelines into consideration when members want to do specific jobs with the shapeoko versus using the large format router, regardless of the physical size of the job.

My last final 2 cents as well. 

• I don't disagree that a chinese sourced spindle would be a potential risk, but where do you think the bearings, motor, and everything else in that porter cable or dewalt router are coming from anyways?
• As far as motors for pumps and blower fans are concerned, simple, affordable "smart" power outlets have been successfully marketed and sold that allow for immediate turnon of accessory devices that when the main device is operating.  As far as I am concerned, the space should already have had one of these devices for the dust collection on the Saw Stop, which I pointed out when I cleaned it.
  
• I'm also not disagreeing on burning up an brushless spindle, and waiting for a replacement could be tiresome, but how much money are we going to throw at replacing routers before burning up a spindle becomes a concern?  If we do decide to go the router path, I will hold out hope that I could be wrong here, but if the tool status on the shapeoko is any indication, I am not sure if we can let ourselves not learn from our mistakes.
  

[John Wathen]

Lol, that was a goof on my part, but yeah, shopping the alternatives gives similar prices and actual availability.