Emerson, Lake & Palmer - that one bit too satanic
in...@my-dejanews.com
Rockband Emerson Lake & Palmer auf der website von Greg Lake einzusehen. Als
grosser E.L.P Anhaenger (fan war ich nie) hatten die mich so seit ca. 28
Jahren schon interessiert. Leider singt Lake aber so nuschelig dass ich, fuer
den Englisch eine Fremdsprache ist, auch wenn ich ganz gut Englisch spreche,
den Text nie verstanden hab ...
Was ich da sah hat mich dann doch so vom Hocker gehauen dass ich
schnurstracks all meine E.L.P CDs weggeworfen hab. Wer's nicht glaubt seh
sich mal den Text von 'bitches crystal' an ... Es geht um Hexenmacht,
Ritualmorde etc. E.L.P mir reichts, mit sowas will ich nix zu tun haben, auch
wenn ich Eure Musik nach wie vor teuflisch gut finde. Die CDs hab ich
unbrauchbar gemacht und weggeschmissen, die Midi Files die fast besser als
das Original (nur halt ohne die satanischen Gesaenge) sind, behalt ich. Und
zwar ohne wie von Keith Emerson gefordert fuer jeden song 10 $ 'Shareware' zu
ueberweisen da ich ja schon die CDs und LPs (die ich auch nicht mehr habe)
rechtmaessig kaeuflich erworben hatte.
Emerson, Lake & Palmer, die 'klassik rock band' - ja wenn sie nicht dies eine
bit zu satanisch waer ...
Welchen Rocksaenger kann man eigentlich als Christ noch guten Gewissens
hoeren ? Bleibt uns denn nur noch Cliff Richard ?
Ciao, inoki (der E.L.P Enttaeuschte)
PS.: war gerade mal auf der Website von Paer Lindh, das scheint aber nur so ne
Emerson Kopie zu sein.
PS I.: In einem laengst vergangenen Leben war der Keith mal mein Musiklehrer.
Leider wollte er Brain salad surgery mit mir machen was ihm dann nicht so gut
bekommen ist. Und ich brauchte / brauche nen neuen Musiklehrer ... Scheint mit
Keith wurde und werde ich nicht gluecklich ... Wer mit Messern auf Hammond
Orgeln einsticht ...
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Edwin Guenthner
> Was ich da sah hat mich dann doch so vom Hocker gehauen dass ich
> schnurstracks all meine E.L.P CDs weggeworfen hab. Wer's nicht glaubt seh
Hmmphf, ich sehe hier zwei Moeglichenkeiten:
a) Du willst uns auf den Arm nehmen
Bingo. Ist Dir gelungen. Sehr witzig.
b) Du meinst das wirklich ernst.
Ja, und? Wenn interessiert, welche Platten Du aus welchen Gruenden auch
immer aus dem Regal nimmst?
> Welchen Rocksaenger kann man eigentlich als Christ noch guten Gewissens
> hoeren ? Bleibt uns denn nur noch Cliff Richard ?
Versuch es doch mal mit Ozzy Osbourne. Der singt ruhige, rockige Balladen,
in denen er Gott/Jesus & Co. hochleben laesst ...
mfg,
edwin guenthner
bad...@my-dejanews.com
we've decided to "go public", even if I write in English (I understand a lot
of German, when i read it, though). So who am I? Bjorn (slash that o) Are
Davidsen, Norway. 39 years old, working within telecom product innovation,
"born again" Christian since 1977, more than a little interested in things
such as art and world views... I even edited a magazine on this in the 80's,
inspired by Lewis, Schaeffer, Chesterton, Solsjenitsyn and other great
Christian thinkers/writers. And as a fan of ELP (which of course colors my
conclusions...) I will attempt to give them a "fair treatment"!
My first mail from yesterday:
> Was ich da sah hat mich dann doch so vom Hocker gehauen dass ich
> schnurstracks all meine E.L.P CDs weggeworfen hab. Wer's nicht glaubt seh
> sich mal den Text von 'bitches crystal' an ... Es geht um Hexenmacht,
> Ritualmorde etc. E.L.P mir reichts, mit sowas will ich nix zu tun haben, auch
> wenn ich Eure Musik nach wie vor teuflisch gut finde. Die CDs hab ich
> unbrauchbar gemacht und weggeschmissen, die Midi Files die fast besser als
> das Original (nur halt ohne die satanischen Gesaenge) sind, behalt ich. Und
> zwar ohne wie von Keith Emerson gefordert fuer jeden song 10 $ 'Shareware' > zuueberweisen da ich ja schon die CDs und LPs (die ich auch nicht mehr
> habe)
I've written a lot on music and world views in Christian papers and magazines
and believe we Christians tend not always to take the wisest approach.
Bitches Crystal I find as an ATTACK on witches, not as a defense. I'll try to
show you by going through the verses.
Bitches Crystal
Knows how you
Twist all the lines
The witch's Crystal Ball is dangerous as it twists reality. This is a warning!
Fortune Teller
Future Seller
Of time
Its even worse as the witch make a profit from telling ("selling") the
future. This is a strong critique!
Tortured spirits cry
Fear is in their eyes
Ghostly images die
And its real bad as it ends in damnation! The lost souls are tortured and
fearfull, due to the evil "Bitches Crystal".
Witches Potion
Mixed in the ocean
Of tears
The witch's work make people cry, brings about tears. Again a strong warning.
Mystical Powers
Emerge From the towers
Of fear
Beside the Tolkien reference it means that the Witches "powers" are from hell
- and bad! Be carefull, avoid witchcraft!
Evil learning
People burning
Savage casting
No one lasting
To learn evil is bad. It make people perish (burning). To cast spells is
savage. Its not something which builds on any lasting values! Don't do it!!!!
Witchcraft
Sadness
Madness
Turning in their minds
Witchcraft destroys, brings sadness and madness, and twist our minds. IT
SHOULD BE AVOIDED!!!!
Ritual killings
That swear in
The shillings to be
Amd witchcraft will end with ritual killings, which is really bad! Please,
stay away from the occult!!!!!
Heretic Priestess
Dwells on the
Weakness she sees
Tortured spirits cry
The witches are heretics, using other people's weaknesses to destroy. And
they lead people to hell. Don't do spiritism or use crystal balls! Its really
dangerous!!!!
So in my opinion "Bitches Crystal" could have been a Christian song, a
warning against dealing with the occult (even if ELP obviously not are
Christians, they text show the evil of witchcraft, crystal balls, fortune
telling and casting of spells)! The lyrics should in fact be used to make a
sermon!
I just can't see how these lyrics should make ELP satanic?!?!
> Welchen Rocksaenger kann man eigentlich als Christ noch guten Gewissens
> hoeren ? Bleibt uns denn nur noch Cliff Richard ?
I think one can listen to a lot of artists! Both for their music and for
their lyrics. Not only those that support Christianity (like Richard, or even
more Larry Norman - and there are others). Listening to "non Christian"
artists is something I do as a kind of duty to Christ. Because they show us
the aspirations and anguish of people who has not found Jesus. That should
inspire us to try to reach out to them and our friends and neighbors who
often have the same feelings and longings - and sometimes hatred of
Christianity (or the Church).
Even ELP's lyrics in "Infinite Space" shows common feelings about the problem
of evil. I've used that text in sermons to convey how influential artists
look at this world. And I've followed it up some 25 years later with "Daddy"
(from "In the Hot Seat") where Lake is a lot more positive to Christianity,
and sings about this little girl who has gone to Heaven (which is part of the
solution of the Problem of Evil).
- - - - - - - - -
My second mail, based on replies from Werner:
Hello Inoki (Werner?)!
Thanks for response! I'll try to clarify me own opninions, mainly based on
your second mail! Of course its not easy to find exactly what artists want to
say. And of course, ELP is NOT a Christian band!
However, what I tried to say is that we need to listen to influential (and
good) bands, to realise what it is they are attempting to say and do. Find
their needs and despairs, their private hopes and hells. In my experience
that may build a trust and understanding which help in attempting to provide
alternatives!
And I'm well aware of ELP's REAL anti-Christian (not the same as
non-Christian) lyrics. "Hallowed be Thy Name" is rather too close to
blasphemy for my taste (even if it may be seen as an attack on modern
societies devaluation of all and any religious values). Still I play "Works
vol 1" a lot (Emerson's side and ELP's) . "Taste of my Love" on "Love Beach"
is beyond any taste of mine. Hence I've never even bought "Love Beach" (the
good parts of that album are on "Return of the Manticore" and "The Atlantic
Years" anyway.
> I hope so ... Karn evil 9: 'not content with that with our hands behind our back
> we pull Jesus from a hat get into that get into that !
>
> you really think that are christian lyrics ? Please explain that to me ... a warning
> not to enter an E.L.P concert ? as the warnings of witchcraft ?
KE9 is not a "Christian Lyric" - even if it like "BC" may be used for a
sermon! Its also a warning - one of the strongest I've ever seen - of a cold,
dark, inhuman future. ELP has consistently dealt with the struggle between
man and machine in the modern city, from Knife Edge to Street War. KE9 starts
by telling us about a
"Cold and Misty Morning, I heard a warning in the air.
About an age of power where noone had an hour to spare"
Then it describes that grim future before - as an example - showing us an
inhuman shocking carneval where all values are gone, the only things left is
Entertainment and the Computer is king.
> you don't wanna fool me ? what do you think of the Rolling Stones ? A
> warning ? I'm Junpin Jack flash it's a fucking gas ...
Stones is a band I dislike. To me they feel like too much hypocrisy and
hedonism. I've one CD with them, only. They are the fallen Adam in flesh.
They've never given me anything. Well, perhaps songs like "Waiting for a
friend" is of value...
> When I bought the 'return of the Manticore' album and heard 'fire' (I am the
> God of hell fire and I'll bring you fire) a bit too loud 2 weeks later my house had
> burnt.
Sorry to hear your house burned.
Be sure, I don't like that song either! Clearly Arthur Brown was crazy from
too many drugs. However, its the most known tune from Palmer's "non-ELP"
days. Thats why its included. As not a Christian band, ELP unfortunataly
didn't have any spiritual resistance against it. Too bad. However, its an
important example of how pshychedelic mucisians flirted with the devil - and
- as with Atomic Roosters, Faust and the like - its usefull as eyeopener to
the dangers of doing that. If you want to play with the fire, don't be
surprised when you get burned. Not that a warning was in any way Arthur
Brown's intention! But we may still use it as such.
> hello again ! I thought it over, maybe bitches crystal is a warning, maybe not.
> Maybe it's a fact. They tell us a fact. Not as a warning. I don't know ...
Good! Doesn't the lyrics very clearly talk about the dangers? To me its a
very clear statement on not getting involved with witches or crystal balls,
if I am to avoid getting my spirit tortured or burned.
> But if I look at some other ELP lyrics ... come inside the show's about to start,
> guaranteed to tear your soul apart ... Where will the soul be teared to ? To
> heaven or to hell ? I presume to hell ... If i see the bitches crystal lyrics
> together with some other ELP lyrics like karn evil 9 I cannot see any good in
> ELP lyrics.
Quite the opposite! Both BC and KE9 are very strong warnings AGAINST dealing
with witches or values which are "guaranteed to tear your soul apart".
Presumably leading to damnation (whatever ELP themselves meant with that).
The tempting voice talling us to "come inside" is clearly not intended by ELP
as the "hero". Its not from God. Its the Devil or Antichrist (or his press
agent) enticing us to enter what he calls the "Greatest Show". And ELP shows
how this show or society has destroyed ecology ("there behind a glass, is a
real blade of grass"), religious practioners ("rows of bishops heads in
jars"), devalued religion as such ("pull Jesus from a hat"), sex ("seven
virgins and a mule"), the mind "("blow your head apart") etc.
Third Impression makes this even clearer.
"Man of steel pray and kneel
With fever's blazing torch
Thrust in the face of the night;
Draws a blade of compassion
Kissed by countless Kings
Whose jewelled trumpet words blind his sight."
Heroic man is doomed in this future society, he may pray and kneel, or lift
his feverish fire and stand brave in front of the dark forces ("the night"),
and fight with compassion and justice, even if it ("the blade of compassion")
has been misused by kings and rulers for ages.
"Walls that no man thought would fall
The altars of the just
Crushed .... Dust .... in the wind ..."
However, even if we don't believe it today, justice may fall, the dark forces
crush it to dust. A warning!
"Rejoice! Glory is ours!
Our young men have not died in vain,
Their graves need no flowers
The tapes have recorded their names."
Human values - like putting flowers on the graves of the brave - is not
needed. The computer ("the tape" - remember, this was written in the 70's) -
is suffcient.
"I am all there is
NEGATIVE! PRIMITIVE! LIMITED! I LET YOU LIVE!
But I gave you life
WHAT ELSE COULD YOU DO?
To do what was right
I'M PERFECT! ARE YOU"
Man (even humanistic man without God), knows he is greater than the machine.
However, the machine man has made ("let live") is "perfect" and takes control
- becomes "God" - in this dark future ELP is warning us against. Not a bright
outlook, wheter one is Christian or not.
> And if you remember where they came from. Atomic rooster, the leader of that
> band has had a lot of psycchic problems and finally comitted suicide. After
> having told us 'devil's answer' the biggest atomic rooster hit...
Terrible - it really is a warning! However, didn't Palmer leave the band
before that song?
> For me Carl Palmer is a fire devil. If you only look at him sitting under this big
> Paiste gong which sounds like hell bells. ELP are that one bit too satanic for
> me. Even if you should be right with your interpretation of bitches crystal. I
> don't know, my English is far from perfect.
Sorry to see you make that connection with Palmer. Remember he didn't write
any lyrics on any song by any group. "Fire" was made before he joined "Crazy
World" and he didn't make the lyrics on any of the Atomic Rooster songs that
were made the short time he spent with that band. I've seen Palmer in
several interviews and he seems real nice and friendly.
> But I have to admit that the ELP music is diabolically good. You know the rat
> catcher of Hameln (a german city) ? He made good music too on his flute. All
> the rats folowed him until they drowned in a river ...
Yes, they are good! I like them as much as I like Gentle Giant! (another band
with "hell" in some of their lyrics). And Yes (New Age lyrics).
And I've heard about that rat catcher! Its well known here in Norway. That's
why I really work on discovering lyrics - seeing what's being said and what
I can learn from it. Both to get to "know" the band memebers as human beings
made in the image of God as thinking and feeling artists - and so valuable
that Jesus died for them. And to see what (if any) of their production is
able to lead me - and others - away from God. And try to avoid that part.
ELP are not Christian. I believe they as individuals have used drugs and
groupies like a lot of other rock groups. I believe they don't endorse such
things now, and may be forgiven if they repent (like Bill Clinton...).
Perhaps they even have.
And they do have a few anti Christian songs. I don't play those. At the same
time most of their pieces are (beside being good music) important as e.g.
warnings against war ("Lucky Man", "Tarkus", "Lay Down Your Guns" etc) or
against the devaluation of values ("Knife Edge" and "KE9") or occultism
("Bitches Crystal").
In humility
Bjorn Are
bjorn-are...@s.nett.telenor.no
- - - - - - - - -
"Our minds were moving parallell, because they never met"
- G.K. Chesterton
- - - - - - - - -
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in...@my-dejanews.com
bad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
Hallo Are, ich antworte Dir mal auf Deutsch da Du ja Deutsch verstehst und wir
hier in einer deutschen NG sind.
I will attempt to give them a "fair treatment"!
Lassen wir ihnen eine moeglichst faire Behandlung angedeihen :-)
>
> My first mail from yesterday:
>
> > Was ich da sah hat mich dann doch so vom Hocker gehauen dass ich
>
> I've written a lot on music and world views in Christian papers and magazines
> and believe we Christians tend not always to take the wisest approach.
> Bitches Crystal I find as an ATTACK on witches, not as a defense. I'll try to
> show you by going through the verses.
Ok Du hast mich ueberzeugt, ich stimme Dir zu, bitches crystal ist eine
Warnung vor allem Okkulten, besonders vor wahrsagerei, Kristallkugel, Hexen
usw.
>
> Bitches Crystal
> Knows how you
> Twist all the lines
>
-----------rest deleted-------------------
> So in my opinion "Bitches Crystal" could have been a Christian song, a
> warning against dealing with the occult (even if ELP obviously not are
> Christians, they text show the evil of witchcraft, crystal balls, fortune
> telling and casting of spells)! The lyrics should in fact be used to make a
> sermon!
Das stimmt zwar, da ELP aber wirklich keine Christen sind oder zumindest waren
kan man auch bitches crystal nicht als christlichen song bezeichnen.
>
> I just can't see how these lyrics should make ELP satanic?!?!
Ok ok, ich stimme Dir zu, ich hatte den Text zuerst auch nicht ganz
verstanden.
>
> Listening to "non Christian"
> artists is something I do as a kind of duty to Christ. Because they show us
> the aspirations and anguish of people who has not found Jesus. That should
> inspire us to try to reach out to them and our friends and neighbors who
> often have the same feelings and longings - and sometimes hatred of
> Christianity (or the Church).
Na ja ich hab am Christentum und an der Kiche und an 'Gott' ne Menge zu
kritisieren was ich hier in der NG ausgiebig getan habe und weiterhin tue,
sehe mich selbst aber nach wie vor als Chris,t da ich das, was Christus
gesagt hat, im Grossen und Ganzen ok finde und unterstuetze.
>
> Even ELP's lyrics in "Infinite Space" shows common feelings about the problem
> of evil. I've used that text in sermons to convey how influential artists
> look at this world. And I've followed it up some 25 years later with "Daddy"
> (from "In the Hot Seat") where Lake is a lot more positive to Christianity,
> and sings about this little girl who has gone to Heaven (which is part of the
> solution of the Problem of Evil).
Gut und Boese ist manchmal nicht ganz einfach zu unterscheiden. Fuer mich ist
'Gott' im Gegensatz zu seinem Sohn Jesus nicht gut weil er mordete (z.B. das
Volk Amalek) und weil er log, luegt und betruegt. Naeheres kannst Du meinen
andern Beitraegen hier entnehmen.
>
> - - - - - - - - -
>
> My second mail, based on replies from Werner:
>
> Hello Inoki (Werner?)!
>
> Thanks for response! I'll try to clarify me own opninions, mainly based on
> your second mail! Of course its not easy to find exactly what artists want to
> say. And of course, ELP is NOT a Christian band!
Das muss man wohl so sehen ...
>
> However, what I tried to say is that we need to listen to influential (and
> good) bands, to realise what it is they are attempting to say and do. Find
> their needs and despairs, their private hopes and hells. In my experience
> that may build a trust and understanding which help in attempting to provide
> alternatives!
Jau aber alles hat Grenzen ...
>
> And I'm well aware of ELP's REAL anti-Christian (not the same as
> non-Christian) lyrics. "Hallowed be Thy Name" is rather too close to
> blasphemy for my taste (even if it may be seen as an attack on modern
> societies devaluation of all and any religious values).
Das Stueck 'Hallowed be thy name' kenn ich gar nicht. kannst du mir den Text
evtl. mal schicken ?
> KE9 is not a "Christian Lyric" - even if it like "BC" may be used for a
> sermon! Its also a warning - one of the strongest I've ever seen -
Sehr richtig ! eine Warnung vor der Rockband deren Auftritt da anschliessend
beschrieben wird, vor ihnen (E.L.P) selber also ... 'rows of bishops heads in
jars, and a bomb inside a car spectacular, spectacular !
zu deutsch: Reihenweise Bischofskoepfe in Einmachglaesern und ne Autobombe -
spektakulaer !
Kurz darauf meinen sie 'we'd like it to be known, that the exhibits that were
shown, are excluively our own' - sozusagen schwaerzester britischer Humor ...
Bei aller Antipathie gegen Katholen, Bischofskoepfe in Einmachglaesern sind
doch ziemlich starker Tobak ... Obwohl so ne gewisse klammheimliche Freude...
Nach all den Ketzerverbrennungen ... Man muss auch joenne koenne wie die
Koelner zu karn ev(a)(i)l sagen ...
> > When I bought the 'return of the Manticore' album and heard 'fire' (I am the
> > God of hell fire and I'll bring you fire) a bit too loud 2 weeks later my
house had
> > burnt.
>
> Sorry to hear your house burned.
ich sag ja, das eine Bit zu satanisch, E.L.P.
>
> Be sure, I don't like that song either! Clearly Arthur Brown was crazy from
> too many drugs.
Ueberall wo er in den Sechzigern mit brennendem Kranz auf dem Kopf auftrat
hat es kurz darauf gebrannt ... Ein waschechter Feuerteufel der Arthur Brown.
Ich hatte mir geschworen von dem Kerl kaufst Du nie ne Platte ... Aber bei
der 'return of the Manitcore' CD hatte ich das wohl vergessen, da wurde das
Stueck 'fire' ja auch von Greg Lake gesungen ... Ich Idiot hatte es auch noch
laut mitgesungen ... Biedermann und die Brandstifter ... So bloed kann man
eigentlich gar nicht sein das auch noch mitzusingen oder ?
>However, its the most known tune from Palmer's "non-ELP"
> days. Thats why its included.
Da hab ich ne ganz andere Theorie ...
> As not a Christian band, ELP unfortunataly
> didn't have any spiritual resistance against it. Too bad. However, its an
> important example of how pshychedelic mucisians flirted with the devil - and
> - as with Atomic Roosters, Faust and the like - its usefull as eyeopener to
> the dangers of doing that. If you want to play with the fire, don't be
> surprised when you get burned. Not that a warning was in any way Arthur
> Brown's intention! But we may still use it as such.
Man kann gar nicht genug vor dem Stueck 'fire' warnen ... ich bin der Gott
des Hoellenfeuers (Satan) und ich bringe Dir Feuer ! Feuer, ich glaube Du
musst brennen, Feuer ich glaube Du musst lernen ! (wortwoertlich uebersetzt).
Learning by doing ...
>
> Quite the opposite! Both BC and KE9 are very strong warnings AGAINST dealing
> with witches or values which are "guaranteed to tear your soul apart".
Jaja. Aber die band selbst ist es die dann von Bischofskoepfen in
Einmachglaesern und ahnlichen Szenarien singt. Also eine Warnung vor Emerson,
Lake und Palmer gesungen und vorgetragen von Emerson Lake und Palmer. Nicht
unraffiniert ... Kann keiner sagen er hat es nicht gewusst ...
singt
> Presumably leading to damnation (whatever ELP themselves meant with that).
Sie wollen (oder sollen ?) uns vor sich selbst (s.o.) warnen ! Was sie aber
mit ihrer teuflisch guten Musik uebertuenchen ... Alle laufen ihnen nach bis
sie abbrennen wie ich :-((( ich schreib hier aus leidvollster Erfahrung ...
> The tempting voice talling us to "come inside" is clearly not intended by ELP
> as the "hero". Its not from God. Its the Devil or Antichrist (or his press
> agent)
- Greg Lake -
enticing us to enter what he calls the "Greatest Show".
- in heaven hell or earth !!! -
And ELP
shows
> how this show or society has destroyed ecology ("there behind a glass, is a
> real blade of grass"), religious practioners ("rows of bishops heads in
> jars"), devalued religion as such ("pull Jesus from a hat"), sex ("seven
> virgins and a mule"), the mind "("blow your head apart") etc.
Na ja das ist Deine Interpretation. Es ist die Band Emerson Lake und Palmer
die all diese Dinge in ihrer Show, der 'groessten show in Himmel, Hoelle oder
auf Erden', vorfuehrt. Und zum Schluss auch noch darauf hinweist dass es sich
bei den 'Ausstellungsstuecken' (den Bischofskoepfen in Einmachglaesern etc.)
um ureigenen Privatbesitz der band handelt ;-)))
>
> Third Impression makes this even clearer.
>
> "Man of steel pray and kneel
> "Walls that no man thought would fall
> The altars of the just
> Crushed .... Dust .... in the wind ..."
Der Kohl ist schon weg, der Rest geht auch noch ;-) Obwohl der Clinton kann
von mir aus bleiben. Wer so fragt wie der Sonderermittler stiftet zum Meineid
an ;-)
>
> Man (even humanistic man without God), knows he is greater than the machine.
> However, the machine man has made ("let live") is "perfect" and takes control
> - becomes "God" - in this dark future ELP is warning us against. Not a bright
> outlook, wheter one is Christian or not.
Na ja das stimmt wohl. Aber sie warnen halt auch vor sich selbst ;-) Ich hoer
nur noch die Midi files ... Die sind sowieso fast besser als das Original
wenn Du ne AWE 32 oder 64 hast ;-) einfach unglaublich gut sag ich dir. Soll
ich Dir mal ein paar Midi files schicken ?
>
> > And if you remember where they came from. Atomic rooster, the leader of
that
> > band has had a lot of psycchic problems and finally comitted suicide. After
> > having told us 'devil's answer' the biggest atomic rooster hit...
>
> Terrible - it really is a warning! However, didn't Palmer leave the band
> before that song?
Moeglich. So genau weiss ich das auch nicht mehr. Mir ist die Bude jedenfalls
abgebrannt vor vier Jahren egal wann der Feuerteufel Palmer die band verlassen
hat ;-((( Das Stueck 'Fire' spiele ich jedenfalls nie wieder.
>
> > For me Carl Palmer is a fire devil. If you only look at him sitting under
this big
> > Paiste gong which sounds like hell bells. ELP are that one bit too satanic
for
> > me. Even if you should be right with your interpretation of bitches crystal.
I
> > don't know, my English is far from perfect.
>
> Sorry to see you make that connection with Palmer. Remember he didn't write
> any lyrics on any song by any group.
but he drummed for the (fire)- devil ...
> "Fire" was made before he joined "Crazy
> World" and he didn't make the lyrics on any of the Atomic Rooster songs that
> were made the short time he spent with that band. I've seen Palmer in
> several interviews and he seems real nice and friendly.
Die sehen immer ganz nett und freundlich aus. Auch Adolf Hitler wenn er sich
mit Kindern auf dem Arm hat fotografieren lassen ... und selbst sein Bruder
der 'liebe Gott' ist ja wg. heiliger Dreieinigkeit unangreifbar ...
>
> > But I have to admit that the ELP music is diabolically good. You know the
rat
> > catcher of Hameln (a german city) ? He made good music too on his flute. All
> > the rats folowed him until they drowned in a river ...
Hab mich da vertan, er hat die Hamelner Kinder entfuehrt ... Erst die Ratten
dann die Kinder. So wie E.L.P. ...
>
> Yes, they are good! I like them as much as I like Gentle Giant! (another band
> with "hell" in some of their lyrics). And Yes (New Age lyrics).
I know ..
>
> And I've heard about that rat catcher! Its well known here in Norway. That's
> why I really work on discovering lyrics - seeing what's being said and what
> I can learn from it. Both to get to "know" the band memebers as human beings
> made in the image of God as thinking and feeling artists - and so valuable
> that Jesus died for them. And to see what (if any) of their production is
> able to lead me - and others - away from God. And try to avoid that part.
Na ja vorm 'lieben Gott' kann ich nicht genug warnen, der ist der
Allerschlimmste, gegen den sind E.L.P. 'real harmless' ...
>
> ELP are not Christian. I believe they as individuals have used drugs and
> groupies like a lot of other rock groups. I believe they don't endorse such
> things now, and may be forgiven if they repent (like Bill Clinton...).
> Perhaps they even have.
Das beste ist ihr Weihnachts Lied 'I believe in father Xmas'. Das einzige
Weihnachtslied das man fast singen kann ohne vor all den Luegen rot zu
werden, wenn es nicht so zynisch waer. Leider ist die Wahrheit meist ENT -
taeuschend bis zynisch ... Vielleicht komm ich auf das Weihnachtslied hier zu
Weihnachten zurueck ... Alle andern Weihnachtslieder kann ich als mehr als
kritischer Christ fast noch weniger mitsingen ;-(
>
> And they do have a few anti Christian songs.
Could you name them please ?
> I don't play those. At the same
> time most of their pieces are (beside being good music) important as e.g.
> warnings against war ("Lucky Man", "Tarkus", "Lay Down Your Guns" etc) or
> against the devaluation of values ("Knife Edge" and "KE9") or occultism
> ("Bitches Crystal").
Knife edge haben sie exclusiv fuer mich geschrieben ;-)
>
> In humility
So ne gewisse Demut ist immer gut ;-)
Ciao, inoki (der fast E.L.P. fan war)
>
> Bjorn Are
>
> bjorn-are...@s.nett.telenor.no
> - - - - - - - - -
> "Our minds were moving parallell, because they never met"
> - G.K. Chesterton
> - - - - - - - - -
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
bad...@my-dejanews.com
> In article <704ank$22i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> bad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Hallo Are, ich antworte Dir mal auf Deutsch da Du ja Deutsch verstehst und wir
> hier in einer deutschen NG sind.
Lassen uns versuchen...
> Ok Du hast mich ueberzeugt, ich stimme Dir zu, bitches crystal ist eine
> Warnung vor allem Okkulten, besonders vor wahrsagerei, Kristallkugel, Hexen
> usw.
Sehr gut!
> > So in my opinion "Bitches Crystal" could have been a Christian song, a
> > warning against dealing with the occult (even if ELP obviously not are
> > Christians, they text show the evil of witchcraft, crystal balls, fortune
> > telling and casting of spells)! The lyrics should in fact be used to make a
> > sermon!
>
> Das stimmt zwar, da ELP aber wirklich keine Christen sind oder zumindest
> warenkan man auch bitches crystal nicht als christlichen song bezeichnen.
Does this mean than you always look at the writers and not at what they write
when interpreting lyrics? I'm a bit unsure about whether being a Christian
does mean that every line of poetry one writes is "Christian poetry".
> > Listening to "non Christian"
> > artists is something I do as a kind of duty to Christ. Because they show us
> > the aspirations and anguish of people who has not found Jesus. That should
> > inspire us to try to reach out to them and our friends and neighbors who
> > often have the same feelings and longings - and sometimes hatred of
> > Christianity (or the Church).
> Na ja ich hab am Christentum und an der Kiche und an 'Gott' ne Menge zu
> kritisieren was ich hier in der NG ausgiebig getan habe und weiterhin tue,
> sehe mich selbst aber nach wie vor als Chris,t da ich das, was Christus
> gesagt hat, im Grossen und Ganzen ok finde und unterstuetze.
Its good to keep one's mind and head even when "finding Jesus". I've never
been very fond of the church, however, its really amazing to see that Jesus
is able to use even fools like me to someway lead others to him.
> Gut und Boese ist manchmal nicht ganz einfach zu unterscheiden. Fuer mich
> ist 'Gott' im Gegensatz zu seinem Sohn Jesus nicht gut weil er mordete (z.B.
> das Volk Amalek) und weil er log, luegt und betruegt. Naeheres kannst Du
> meinenandern Beitraegen hier entnehmen.
Have you ever read C.S. Lewis "Problem of Pain" or "Reflections on the
Psalms" - both very good (and intelligent) starting points for such important
discussions? I believe they may be found in German.
> Das Stueck 'Hallowed be thy name' kenn ich gar nicht. kannst du mir den
> Text evtl. mal schicken ?
I'll see what I can do when I'm back in some days.
> > KE9 is not a "Christian Lyric" - even if it like "BC" may be used for a
> > sermon! Its also a warning - one of the strongest I've ever seen -
>
> Sehr richtig ! eine Warnung vor der Rockband deren Auftritt da anschliessend
> beschrieben wird, vor ihnen (E.L.P) selber also ... 'rows of bishops heads in
> jars, and a bomb inside a car spectacular, spectacular !
>
> zu deutsch: Reihenweise Bischofskoepfe in Einmachglaesern und ne Autobombe -
> spektakulaer !
>
> Kurz darauf meinen sie 'we'd like it to be known, that the exhibits that were
> shown, are excluively our own' - sozusagen schwaerzester britischer Humor ...
>
> Bei aller Antipathie gegen Katholen, Bischofskoepfe in Einmachglaesern sind
> doch ziemlich starker Tobak ... Obwohl so ne gewisse klammheimliche
> Freude...
> Nach all den Ketzerverbrennungen ... Man muss auch joenne koenne wie die
> Koelner zu karn ev(a)(i)l sagen ...
Would you please reconsider? Anyone may be mistaken. And ELP is not making it
easy to discover the meanings of KE). At least if one doesn't look at the
whole piece as a unit.
KE9 is made up of three "Impressions" and three "lyrical" phases.
Phase 1 is the first part of 1st Impression - That is the WARNING about the
bad future society about to arrive and the call for a fight against its evil
Phase 2 is the second part of 1st Impression - This is the start of our trip
through that society, the Karneval of Evil.
Phase 3 is 3rd Impression - This is the description of Heroic Man's fight
loss of Justice and hope, before the computer wins and destroy "what's left
of humanity".
Lets start with Phase 1:
"Cold and misty morning, I heard a WARNING borne in the air
About an age of power where no one had an hour to spare,
Where the seeds have withered, silent children shivered, in the cold
Now their faces captured in the lenses of the jackals for gold.
I'll be there
I'll be there
I will be there.
Suffering in silence, they've all been betrayed.
They hurt them and they beat them, in a terrible way,
Praying for survival at the end of the day.
There is no compassion for those who stay.
I'll be there
I'll be there
I will be there.
There must be someone who can set them free:
To take their sorrow from this odyssey
To help the helpless and the refugee
To protect what's left of humanity.
Can't you see
Can't you see
Can't you see.
I'll be there
I'll be there
I will be there;
To heal their sorrow
To beg and borrow
Fight tommorow."
To me its hard not to see this as warning...
Then Phase 2 (the Evil Karneval):
"Step inside! Hello! We've the most amazing show
You'll enjoy it all we know
Step inside! Step Inside!
We've got thrills and shocks, supersonic fighting cocks.
Leave your hammers at the box
Come Inside! Come Inside!
Roll up! Roll up! Roll up!
See the show!
Left behind the bars, rows of Bishops' heads in jars
and a bomb inside a car
Spectacular! Spectacular!
If you follow me there's a speciality
some tears for you to see
Misery, misery,
Roll up! Roll up! Roll up!
See the show!"
And so on - pure evil. Hence we are warned and realise what we are up against
if we don't "repent" and fight this tyranny of "amusing ourselves to death!
> > > When I bought the 'return of the Manticore' album and heard 'fire' (I am the
> > > God of hell fire and I'll bring you fire) a bit too loud 2 weeks later my
> house had
> > > burnt.
> >
> > Sorry to hear your house burned.
>
> ich sag ja, das eine Bit zu satanisch, E.L.P.
However sad, I doubt the insuranse company is convinced its ELP's fault...
> der 'return of the Manitcore' CD hatte ich das wohl vergessen, da wurde das
> Stueck 'fire' ja auch von Greg Lake gesungen ... Ich Idiot hatte es auch noch
> laut mitgesungen ... Biedermann und die Brandstifter ... So bloed kann man
> eigentlich gar nicht sein das auch noch mitzusingen oder ?
>
> >However, its the most known tune from Palmer's "non-ELP"
> > days. Thats why its included.
>
> Da hab ich ne ganz andere Theorie ...
I believe they think the tune is "cool" (pun not intended) and was really the
ONLY hit Palmer in any way was part of before ELP.
> Na ja vorm 'lieben Gott' kann ich nicht genug warnen, der ist der
> Allerschlimmste, gegen den sind E.L.P. 'real harmless' ...
I dind't get this - are you opposed to loving God?
> > ELP are not Christian. I believe they as individuals have used drugs and
> > groupies like a lot of other rock groups. I believe they don't endorse such
> > things now, and may be forgiven if they repent (like Bill Clinton...).
> > Perhaps they even have.
>
> Das beste ist ihr Weihnachts Lied 'I believe in father Xmas'. Das einzige
> Weihnachtslied das man fast singen kann ohne vor all den Luegen rot zu
> werden, wenn es nicht so zynisch waer. Leider ist die Wahrheit meist ENT -
> taeuschend bis zynisch ... Vielleicht komm ich auf das Weihnachtslied hier zu
> Weihnachten zurueck ... Alle andern Weihnachtslieder kann ich als mehr als
> kritischer Christ fast noch weniger mitsingen ;-(
You find Lake's "I believe in Father Christmas" a good Christmas song? Well,
it may get the mood (though not the metaphysics). I find e.g. Stille Nacht
kind of better.
> > And they do have a few anti Christian songs.
>
> Could you name them please ?
"Hallowed be thy Name" (rather anti Christian)
"I Believe in Father Christmas" (definetely non Christian)
"Taste of my love" (definetely non Christian)
> > I don't play those. At the same
> > time most of their pieces are (beside being good music) important as e.g.
> > warnings against war ("Lucky Man", "Tarkus", "Lay Down Your Guns" etc)
>> or against the devaluation of values ("Knife Edge" and "KE9") or occultism
> > ("Bitches Crystal").
>
> Knife edge haben sie exclusiv fuer mich geschrieben ;-)
Hopefully you'll reconsider ;-)
Yours
Bjorn Are
bjorn-are...@s.nett.telenor.no
- - - - - - - - -
"Our minds were moving parallell, because they never met"
- G.K. Chesterton
- - - - - - - - -
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
in...@my-dejanews.com
bad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <704ank$22i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > bad...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Das stimmt zwar, da ELP aber wirklich keine Christen sind oder zumindest
> > warenkan man auch bitches crystal nicht als christlichen song bezeichnen.
>
> Does this mean than you always look at the writers and not at what they write
> when interpreting lyrics? I'm a bit unsure about whether being a Christian
> does mean that every line of poetry one writes is "Christian poetry".
Nein, es muss nicht jeder song, den ich mir anhoere, ein Kirchenlied sein.
Aber es gibt ja auch songs die den Satan verherrlichen, es gibt ja sogar
regelrechten Satans Rock den ich mir allerdinsg nie anhoere. Weil, wer sich
Satans Rock anhoert und gut findet, der ist halt irgendwann des Satans.
>
> Its good to keep one's mind and head even when "finding Jesus". I've never
> been very fond of the church, however, its really amazing to see that Jesus
> is able to use even fools like me to someway lead others to him.
Ich bin der aeltere Bruder Jesu, Hercules. In meiner letzten Inkarnation als
Otto v. Bismarck nicht ganz unbekannt. An Gott hab ich zu kritisieren z.B.
dass er luegt wenn er bahauptet nur einen Sohn zu haben. Er hat naemlich ne
ganze Menge Kinder, Toechter und Soehne. An Jesus hab ich nichts zu
kritisieren, an 'Gott' hab ich jede Menge Kritik hier in der NG geuebt. Ich
werd hier auch weiterhin kein Blatt vor den Mund nehmen. Ich empfehle Dir
auch meine andern Beitraege hier zur Lektuere. Ach ja auch an der Kirche,
besonders an der katholischen, hab ich jede Menge Kritik, beonders an der
'heiligen Dreieinigkeit', fuer mich eine Irrlehre. Wenn Du mal alle meine
Beitraege hier mit Dejanews liest wirst du verstehen was ich meine.
>
> > Gut und Boese ist manchmal nicht ganz einfach zu unterscheiden. Fuer mich
> > ist 'Gott' im Gegensatz zu seinem Sohn Jesus nicht gut weil er mordete (z.B.
> > das Volk Amalek) und weil er log, luegt und betruegt. Naeheres kannst Du
> > meinenandern Beitraegen hier entnehmen.
>
> Have you ever read C.S. Lewis "Problem of Pain" or "Reflections on the
> Psalms" - both very good (and intelligent) starting points for such important
> discussions? I believe they may be found in German.
Ne hab ich nicht gelesen, mit 'Gott' hab ich sowieso nichts mehr am Hut
aussser dass ich ihn vernichtend kritisiere, an Jesus hab ich NICHTS mehr zu
kritisieren auch wenn er zum Zeitpunkt seiner Kreuzigung nicht die VOLLE
WAhrheit kannte die ich hier 2000 jahre spaeter nachreiche.
>
> > Bei aller Antipathie gegen Katholen, Bischofskoepfe in Einmachglaesern sind
> > doch ziemlich starker Tobak ... Obwohl so ne gewisse klammheimliche
> > Freude...
> > Nach all den Ketzerverbrennungen ... Man muss auch joenne koenne wie die
> > Koelner zu karn ev(a)(i)l sagen ...
>
> Would you please reconsider? Anyone may be mistaken. And ELP is not making it
> easy to discover the meanings of KE).
Ich ueberlege immer noch ... Der Powell der in den 80ern zeitweilg den Palmer
ersetzte spielte vorher bei black sabbath wohl doch so ziemliche Satans Rock
oder ? Vor nicht allzu langer Zeit ist er ja dann auch toedlich verunglueckt.
Also so ne gewisse Naehe zum Satan ist bei ELP irgendwie vorhanden oder
findest Du nicht ? Wenn Du nur mal das stueck 'benny the bouncer' hoerst. Da
wird doch der Mord an diesem Benny ziemlich verharmlost oder findest Du
nicht ?
Tja so gut sprech ich halt auch kein Englisch dass ich jeden englischen Text
und sei er noch so tiefsinnig auf Anhieb verstehe. Der normale Mensch
versteht halt im allgemeinen nur seine Muttersprache wirklich richtig, es sei
denn er lebt jahrelang im Ausland. Und selbst im Deutschen gibt es Texte von
Dichtern wie Hoelderlin etc. die sich nicht mal jedem Deutschen erschliessen.
>At least if one doesn't look at the
> whole piece as a unit.
>
> KE9 is made up of three "Impressions" and three "lyrical" phases.
>
> Phase 1 is the first part of 1st Impression - That is the WARNING about the
> bad future society about to arrive and the call for a fight against its evil
>
> Phase 2 is the second part of 1st Impression - This is the start of our trip
> through that society, the Karneval of Evil.
>
> Phase 3 is 3rd Impression - This is the description of Heroic Man's fight
> loss of Justice and hope, before the computer wins and destroy "what's left
> of humanity".
>
> Lets start with Phase 1:
>
> "Cold and misty morning, I heard a WARNING borne in the air
> About an age of power where no one had an hour to spare,
> Where the seeds have withered, silent children shivered, in the cold
> Now their faces captured in the lenses of the jackals for gold.
> I'll be there
> I'll be there
> I will be there.
Ist der Mann den Jesus ?
>
> Suffering in silence, they've all been betrayed.
> They hurt them and they beat them, in a terrible way,
> Praying for survival at the end of the day.
> There is no compassion for those who stay.
> I'll be there
> I'll be there
> I will be there.
>
> There must be someone who can set them free:
> To take their sorrow from this odyssey
> To help the helpless and the refugee
> To protect what's left of humanity.
> Can't you see
> Can't you see
> Can't you see.
>
> I'll be there
> I'll be there
> I will be there;
> To heal their sorrow
> To beg and borrow
> Fight tommorow."
Dass er uns alle vor dieser schrecklichen Zukunft, die ja langst Gegenwart
(siehe z.B. den Medienmord an Lady Di) ist, rettet ?
>
> To me its hard not to see this as warning...
Sure it's a warning. But is Greg Lake Jesus ? Or does he pull Jesus from a
hat? get out of that get out of that ! Don't ever visit an ELP concert... A
very strong warning indeed.
>
> Then Phase 2 (the Evil Karneval):
>
> "Step inside! Hello! We've the most amazing show
> You'll enjoy it all we know
> Step inside! Step Inside!
The bad future has begun. With Emerson Lake and Palmer that that one bit too
Satanic rockband, who perfom with the gypsy queen on guillotine, seven
virgins and a mule, keep it cool, keep it cool. It's ELP themselves who play
in this bad future which has already begun as a competitor of the 'greatest
Rock'n roll band' in the world, the Rolling Stones, who are even a bit more
Satanic than ELP ... ELPs show is even more amazing then the Rolling Stones
show of course 'cause I don't like the Stones so much either.
>
> We've got thrills and shocks, supersonic fighting cocks.
> Leave your hammers at the box
> Come Inside! Come Inside!
> Roll up! Roll up! Roll up!
> See the show!
>
> Left behind the bars, rows of Bishops' heads in jars
> and a bomb inside a car
> Spectacular! Spectacular!
>
> If you follow me there's a speciality
> some tears for you to see
> Misery, misery,
> Roll up! Roll up! Roll up!
> See the show!"
>
> And so on - pure evil. Hence we are warned and realise what we are up against
> if we don't "repent" and fight this tyranny of "amusing ourselves to death!
Was mich halt stutzig macht, ist, dass es die band ELP selbst ist, die in
dieser duesteren Zukunft, die ja laengst Gegenwart ist und vor der sie uns
anfaenglich in der 1.th impression gewarnt hat, in der 2. impression als
genau diese band auftritt vor der sie uns gewarnt hat. Eine Warnung vor sich
selbst also ?
>
> > Na ja vorm 'lieben Gott' kann ich nicht genug warnen, der ist der
> > Allerschlimmste, gegen den sind E.L.P. 'real harmless' ...
>
> I dind't get this - are you opposed to loving God?
Gott ist fuer mich Jesus, den ich bruederlich liebe. Ein anderer Gott als
Jesus existiert ab sofort nicht mehr. Du kannst ihn aber auch als zur Hoelle
gefahren ansehen den 'lieben Gott'. Wie Du willst. Jesus lebt, Jesus ist das
Licht, Jesus ist der Koenig, Jesus ist die Gegegnwart und die Zukunft. Wenn
ELP zu Jesus finden hoer ich mir gene wieder ihre Musik an. Ob Greg Lake der
Heiland ist wie er ja singend den Eindruck erweckt 'I'll be there' halte ich
fuer mehr als zweifelhaft. Wir brauchen keinen 2. Messias namens Greg Lake,
einer naemlich Jesus Christus der Erloeser, reicht vollkommen aus. Einen Greg
Lake brauch ich nicht mehr solange er solche Texte wie 'I'll be there' singt,
in denen er sich quasi als der 2. Erloeser aufspielt. Was man ja auch als
satanische Verfuehrung und Hinwegfuehrung vom Erloeser Jesus Christus
interpretieren kann ...
>
> >
> > Das beste ist ihr Weihnachts Lied 'I believe in father Xmas'. Das einzige
> > Weihnachtslied das man fast singen kann ohne vor all den Luegen rot zu
> > werden, wenn es nicht so zynisch waer. Leider ist die Wahrheit meist ENT -
> > taeuschend bis zynisch ... Vielleicht komm ich auf das Weihnachtslied hier
zu
> > Weihnachten zurueck ... Alle andern Weihnachtslieder kann ich als mehr als
> > kritischer Christ fast noch weniger mitsingen ;-(
Na ja vielleicht bin ich da in meiner Wut auf 'Gottes' Halbwahrheiten
(bekanntlich die schlimmsten Luegen) ein wenig zu weit gegangen. Vielleicht
bin auch ich der Satanischen Verfuehrung in ELPs songs und besonders in ihrem
Weihnachtslied erlegen gewesen ... Vielleicht sollte man gerade zu
Weihnachten doch andere Lieder singen ...
>
> You find Lake's "I believe in Father Christmas" a good Christmas song? Well,
> it may get the mood (though not the metaphysics). I find e.g. Stille Nacht
> kind of better.
s.O. Du hat Recht :-)
>
> > > And they do have a few anti Christian songs.
> >
> > Could you name them please ?
>
> "Hallowed be thy Name" (rather anti Christian)
> "I Believe in Father Christmas" (definetely non Christian)
> "Taste of my love" (definetely non Christian)
Die kenn ich alle drei nicht. Falls du die Texte hast schick sie doch bitte
mal.
>
> > > I don't play those. At the same
> > > time most of their pieces are (beside being good music) important as e.g.
> > > warnings against war ("Lucky Man", "Tarkus", "Lay Down Your Guns" etc)
> >> or against the devaluation of values ("Knife Edge" and "KE9") or occultism
> > > ("Bitches Crystal").
Tarkus hab ich immer noch nicht ganz verstanden.
> >
> > Knife edge haben sie exclusiv fuer mich geschrieben ;-)
>
> Hopefully you'll reconsider ;-)
Ich hab jahrelang auf des Messers Schneide gelebt. Wg. Babi Jar (waren da
nicht die ganzen Judenerschiessungen ?). Musikalisch verweise ich hierzu auf
ELP 'pictures at an exhibition' insbesonderes auf 'the curse of Baba Yaga'
was sie auch exclusiv fuer mich komponiert haben ...
Bin weder der Verraeter meiner Vaeter noch ihr Komplize. Ein Leben auf des
Messers Schneide halt. Ich heiss inoki (von mir aus auch Gantenbein) und
halt's Maul ... Wenn andere wie mein Vater und andere (der war 'nur' bei der
Wehrmacht) das Maul nicht halten koennen, das ist nicht mein Problem.
bad...@my-dejanews.com
in...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Ich bin der aeltere Bruder Jesu, Hercules. In meiner letzten Inkarnation als
> Otto v. Bismarck nicht ganz unbekannt. An Gott hab ich zu kritisieren z.B.
> dass er luegt wenn er bahauptet nur einen Sohn zu haben.
This is a rather different discussion than the one on ELP's lyrics... Before
"discussing" your views on Hercules and others, I would like to know if you
mean this metaphorically or as "true"?
In any case this may as much involve linguistics and symbols, as "theology".
I believe with all my heart and mind that Jesus Christ is God's only BEGOTTEN
Son. At the same time as I believe with my very same and whole heart and mind
that God is MY "Heavenly Father", indeed "daddy" (Abba). Without that making
me God or Jesus. I'm a man, which is no small thing, as I'm made in the image
of God. Which makes us all (like Jesus said) "gods". Life and language are
paradoxical. Any Real God should be the same.
>. An Jesus hab ich nichts zu
> kritisieren, an 'Gott' hab ich jede Menge Kritik hier in der NG geuebt.
If you mean due to things like you mentioned about the killing of Amaleks
(and others) I've always thought that though I don't like it, maybe
evaluating the acts of the Infinite is not always a question about what I
"like". As far as I gather from the records in the Bible the Cananites were
far more satanic than any rock artists. They cried "fire" and burned babies
for their "gods". That's always made me better understand (though I don't
always "like" it) that they may have deserved what God did.
> Ich empfehle Dir
> auch meine andern Beitraege hier zur Lektuere. Ach ja auch an der Kirche,
> besonders an der katholischen, hab ich jede Menge Kritik, beonders an der
> 'heiligen Dreieinigkeit', fuer mich eine Irrlehre. Wenn Du mal alle meine
> Beitraege hier mit Dejanews liest wirst du verstehen was ich meine.
I've no inclination to discuss the Catholic Church... However, in my view any
institution with a history (e.g. more than one generation old) will have also
a "bad" history (alongside a "good"). Which to me always have been one reason
for following Jesus. It proves - like the Bible says - that none of us - not
even churches - are in tune with the Mind behind the Universe, a Mind who
also has a Heart. Which led to the brilliant way of getting us back in tune -
by having Jesus show us God's "face" and heart, and taking upon himself the
blame for MY discordant actions and thoughts. Giving his life for me, so that
I may live. Repenting and submitting Himself perfectly to God, which is what
I need to do, but can't. So Jesus does it for me. Such intriguing paradoxes
is the reason why I believe the "Christian story" to be the (shocking) truth
behind the Universe.
> > > Na ja vorm 'lieben Gott' kann ich nicht genug warnen, der ist der
> > > Allerschlimmste, gegen den sind E.L.P. 'real harmless' ...
> >
> > I dind't get this - are you opposed to loving God?
>
> Gott ist fuer mich Jesus, den ich bruederlich liebe. Ein anderer Gott als
> Jesus existiert ab sofort nicht mehr. Du kannst ihn aber auch als zur Hoelle
> gefahren ansehen den 'lieben Gott'. Wie Du willst. Jesus lebt, Jesus ist das
> Licht, Jesus ist der Koenig, Jesus ist die Gegegnwart und die Zukunft.
Jesus is one of those person's its impossible to label. He's human and He's
God. He's King and He's Servant. He died and he lives.
This also part of my reason for believing in God. The God of the Bible is no
philosophical, comforting abstraction. He's not invented by clever men or
priest. He's no Christian Social Democrat. He's a Passion from beyond, a
Fundament for all our rationality and ethical grounds. Though he is and
always does the opposite of what "human reason" would expect.
God is one God and Three Persons. He's Love and He's Righteousness. He has
only one begotten Son, and He has billions of sons and daugthers. He chooses
one people to save all people through one man.
> Ich hab jahrelang auf des Messers Schneide gelebt. Wg. Babi Jar (waren da
> nicht die ganzen Judenerschiessungen ?). Musikalisch verweise ich hierzu auf
> ELP 'pictures at an exhibition' insbesonderes auf 'the curse of Baba Yaga'
> was sie auch exclusiv fuer mich komponiert haben ...
Remember that its the 19th century Russian composer Mussorgsy who made the
piece about Baby Yaga.
Yours
Bjorn Are
bjorn-are...@s.nett.telenor.no
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If Man is not a divine being one of the animals must have lost its head