Old-Italian text: Orlando di Lasso
Loekie Ratelkous
I am intrigued by the the German translation of the italian song "Matona
mia cara" by Orlando di Lasso (~1532-1594). Our choir sings it from page
53 of "Ars Musica IV".
We like to know what we sing, and because we don't know any Italian, we
have to rely on the German translation (Landsknechtständchen) that is also
printed under the score.
Italian (16th century):
1
Matona mia cara, mi follere canzon,
cantar sotto finestra lantze buon compagnon.
2
Ti prego m'ascoltare, che mi cantar de bon,
e mi ti foller bene come greco e capon
3
Comandar a la cacce, caccar con le falcon
mi ti portar beccacce, grasse comerognon
4
Se mi non saper dire tante belle rason
petrarcha mi non saper, ne fonte d'Helicon
5
Se ti mi foller bene, mi non esser poltron,
mi baciar tutta notte, ballar come monton
===
Printed German text (can be sung)
1
Herz allerliebstes Mädel hör an mein Liedel hell
Der Landsknecht unterm Fenster ist dir dein gut Gesell.
2
Ach, wolltest du doch hören, wie schön mein Lieder klingt,
Kein Vöglein unterm Fenster dir je ein schönres singt.
3
Ach, dass ich wär ein Jäger, ich bracht dir von der Jagd
ein zartes, braunes Rehlein, dir gleich, liebwerte Magd.
4
Das Rehlein könntst du zämen wie deinen Landsknecht gut,
wollst du mit deinem Lieben stillen sein' wilden Mut.
5
So bald du ihn erhöret, hast du ihm zahm gemacht,
kannst fröhlich sein und lachen mit ihm bei Tag und Nacht
===
We (Dutchmen) were satisfied, but now a candidate-member (who could not
sing...) behaved that the Germantext deviates strongly in meaning from
the Italian, only to make it possible to sing this German text.
Does anyone know the truth in this matter? Has somebody a concise
translation in German, English, or preferably in Dutch? Any translator
pitying us?
Loekie
PS:
Sorry voor het Engels: cross-posting!
PS2: repeated posting , yesterday's went astray I think
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Are you sure you want to know? For a start, the version you have is
'bowdlerized', i.e. cleaned up -- in the last verse, the original
'ficcar' is replaced with 'baciar'... and that original means exactly
what it looks like from an English speaker's point of view. For
translations see:
http://choralnet.org/music/viewTitle.phtml?titleid=22531
(Scroll down the page to see comments and translations.)
--
Regards,
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Helsinki, Finland
"Nil significat nisi oscillat. Du vap. Du vap. Du vap."
Marcello Penso
says...
I don't know German, and after some quick research, I've found various
versions of the song's text. This seems to me, to be the most
trustworthy, though I don't have any authentic sources:
Matona mia cara, mi follere canzon
Matona (a very unusual name, a probably a corruption of Madonna) my dear,
I want to sing (note that follere could be an early version of volere (to
want) or folle (mad, insane). There is also folleggiare (to behave like a
fool, to make merry frolic) which may be the closest in meaning, i.e. to
sing madly and merrily.)
cantar sotto finestra, Lanze bon compagnon.
sing under a window, Lanze my good friend
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Syllabing...
Ti prego m'ascoltare che mi cantar de bon
Please listen to me, since my singing is swell (it could be just 'since
my singing is good', but the singer seems to have a bit of swagger)
e mi ti foller bene come greco e capon.
And I love you dearly like greco e capon (must be a reference to a
particular dish, a meal. Greco is literally Greek, but it also refers to
a northeasterly wind. Capon could be either a fish (gurnard) or a
corruption of cappone (castrated cock).
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Com'andar alle cazze, cazzar con le falcon,
Like going hunting, hunting with falcons (note that 'cazze' is easily a
corruption of 'caccie' (hunting), but it could be a kind of precursor of
'cazzo' (cock / penis). This later meaning is a little far because it
would require the word to swing from the feminine to the masculine
(cazz'e' to cazz'o'.) In any case some food for thought.)
mi ti portar beccazze, grasse come rognon
I'll bring you large woodcocks, fat like kidneys
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Se mi non saper dire tante belle rason
If I don't know how to say many nice thoughts ('Se' could also be
'Though' in this context)
Petrarca mi non saper, ne fonte d'Helicon.
Petrarch I don't know, nor the source of Helicon
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Se ti mi foller bene mi non esser poltron;
If you love me dearly, I'm not a slouch (the literal translation is 'I'm
not a lounge chair', or any cushioned seat)
mi ficcar tutta notte, urtar come monton
I'll thrust all night, knocking like a ram ('ficcar' literally means to
thrust, drive or poke, but given the swagger of the singer, a more
appropriate term might be 'screw' or 'bang' which are heavier in tone,
but not as vulgar as fuck.)
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Marcello
gustav
Marcellos Übersetzung ist *sehr* gut, aber man muss hinzufügen, dass
der Text ein Witz ist, vielleicht ein Spaß in einer
Karnevalsveranstaltung am Münchner Hof. Vorgestellt wird ein deutscher
Landsknecht in Italien, der zur Laute ("don-don-don") schlechtes, sehr
deutsch gefärbtes Italienisch singt und sich schlecht benimmt. Das
passt auch gut zu Briefen Lassos (unter anderem an seinen Arbeitgeber,
den bayerischen Herzog), in denen er in einer bunten Mischung aus
Italienisch, Französisch, Deutsch und Latein z.T. recht derbe Scherze
macht.
Die deutsche Übersetzung, die in Ars Musica abgedruckt ist, stammt
wohl aus dem ersten Drittel des 20. Jahrhunderts (von wem sie ist,
müsste in AM IV stehen, ich habe es jetzt nicht da). Sie verharmlost
den Text, sonst hätte man ihn damals nicht singen können, denn
Italienisch war deutschen Chören damals nicht zuzumuten. Es wäre ja
auch heutzutage nicht ganz einfach, aber wenn man den Originaltext
singt, versteht ohnehin niemand das Italienisch.
Gustav
Bill Pittman
g_ri...@web.de (gustav) wrote:
> Marcello Penso <m.p...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<MPG.18a2457da...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> > In article <b19jao$10b55p$1...@ID-73614.news.dfncis.de>, l...@12move.nl
> > says...
> > >
> > > I am intrigued by the the German translation of the italian song "Matona
> > > mia cara" by Orlando di Lasso (~1532-1594). Our choir sings it from page
> > > 53 of "Ars Musica IV".
> > > We like to know what we sing, and because we don't know any Italian, we
> > > have to rely on the German translation (Landsknechtständchen) that is
> > > also
> > > printed under the score.
[snip]
Well, I don't have an English translation any more, but I sang one years
ago. It is VERY suggestive - even beyond suggestive. Has such phallic
features as "It is so big and long" - referring to guess what??
Drove one of the female members of our madrigal group crazy!
Loekie Ratelkous
"Loekie Ratelkous" <l...@12move.nl> schreef in bericht
news:b19jao$10b55p$1...@ID-73614.news.dfncis.de...
>
> I am intrigued by the the German translation of the italian song "Matona
> mia cara" by Orlando di Lasso (~1532-1594). Our choir sings it from page
> 53 of "Ars Musica IV".
[...]
> Does anyone know the truth in this matter? Has somebody a concise
> translation in German, English, or preferably in Dutch? Any translator
> pitying us?
>
> Loekie
Well, people: I'm impressed: 4 very relevant answers within half a day,
and no trolls spoiling things!
Andante and Jaakko: Thanks for the 2 links to translations. I'll come back
if a comparison reveals interesting stuff.
Marcello: Thanks for your thorough analysis of the Italian without being
distracted by the German text! Gustav judged it a very good translation,
so thanks very much.
Gustav: Vielen Dank für die Hintergrund des Text-entstehens. Ich wusste
gar nicht, dass Lassus in München gearbeitet hat!
Regarding the author of the German text: Fritz Jöde is mentioned under the
heading "Text Übertragung".
Ist "Text Übertragung" identisch mit Übersetsung, oder wird damit etwas
anderes gemeint?
Regarding singing translations:
I hate singing Translations. Our choir once sang some Bach stuff in a
Dutch translation. German and Dutch are very related languages, that also
have little differences in word order. Yet in your mother tongue you feel
that the new text is forced into the rhitm and melodie. It just hurts.
Italian and German are very different, and the composers chose measure and
rhitm that suits Italian. It is almost impossible to sing the German
multi-consonant-syllabs on such an Italian music.
Thanks for your contributions!
L.
Loekie Ratelkous
"Bill Pittman" <willi...@global2000.net> schreef in bericht
news:williepitt-A02A7...@news.mybizz.net...
Hmm... I find no reference to "big and long" in Marcello's English
translation, not in the german translation. Could one of the other
madrigalists reproduce the translation?
About time that I go online to check the translations that I got links
for...
> Drove one of the female members of our madrigal group crazy!
Can understand that. I am fond of teasing some quickly-blushing soprano's
in our choir, but I strictly keep away from sexist undertones. This way
also they keep smiling. And what's more beautifull than a smiling soprano?
L.
PS The answer: Lots of them......
Peter T. Daniels
> also they keep smiling. And what's more beautifull than a smiling soprano?
>
> L.
>
> PS The answer: Lots of them......
A tip for improving your English flirting: You could only reply "Lots of
them" if the original had been "What's more beautiful than one smiling
soprano?"; but to "What's more beautiful than a smiling soprano?" you
could answer "Several of them."
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Loekie Ratelkous
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> schreef in bericht
news:3E399E...@worldnet.att.net...
1. This was not to flirt, this was trying to be funny. No need to keep
your daughter indoors...
2. I translate. You have found the reason why I translate from English
into Dutch, not the other way around.
Nevertheless: Thanks for your comment. I'm old, but not too old to learn.
L.
Coby Beck
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3E399E...@worldnet.att.net...
Well, I think I'm intelligent (despite being in Harrington's killfile and
still responding to **o*** - sorry) and have spoken english for 37 years. I
had a father who always tried to make me say "It is I" rather than "It's me"
so am not unaware of technicalities of grammar. But I see no semantic
difference at all between "a soprano" and "one soprano" in the above usage
and can't imagine why one should be replied to differently than the
other...?
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
Dr.Matt
None of these make good flirting strategies. But if the follow-up is
addressed to a specific lady and it is "you, my dear", that may be
more effective.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"Note: no response. Note: no response. Note: no response." --Dave Tholen
Peter T. Daniels
That's the only way it should be done. I only translate into English.
(You'd think some of the smaller CD labels would finally realize that
they distribute unintelligible "English" versions of their liner notes!)
> Nevertheless: Thanks for your comment. I'm old, but not too old to learn.
>
> L.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Peter T. Daniels
I _think_ the problem lies in the antecedent of "them." There's no
plural for it to refer to. But it's a very subtle point and ought to be
considered by those who specialize in analyzing noun phrases.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <3E399E...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Loekie Ratelkous wrote:
> >
> >> also they keep smiling. And what's more beautifull than a smiling soprano?
> >>
> >> L.
> >>
> >> PS The answer: Lots of them......
> >
> >A tip for improving your English flirting: You could only reply "Lots of
> >them" if the original had been "What's more beautiful than one smiling
> >soprano?"; but to "What's more beautiful than a smiling soprano?" you
> >could answer "Several of them."
> >--
> >Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>
> None of these make good flirting strategies. But if the follow-up is
> addressed to a specific lady and it is "you, my dear", that may be
> more effective.
Only if the lady in question is neither smiling nor a soprano!
Jan Templiner
> (You'd think some of the smaller CD labels would finally realize that
> they distribute unintelligible "English" versions of their liner notes!)
I would find it much more important for the American labels (such as
Delos or Telarc) to realise that there actually are people on this
planet who don't speak English and accordingly translate their liner
notes at least into French and German.
The indeed sometimes problematic English bothers me much less. At least
they've done _something_! I much rather read odd English ("part" instead
of "movement") than the original Estonian text.
Jan
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
>
> Loekie Ratelkous wrote:
> >
> > (snip)
> > 2. I translate. You have found the reason why I translate from English
> > into Dutch, not the other way around.
>
> That's the only way it should be done. I only translate into English.
> (You'd think some of the smaller CD labels would finally realize that
> they distribute unintelligible "English" versions of their liner notes!)
While what you say of CD liner notes is true, I take exception to your
general point. 90% of my work as a professional translator is
translation from Finnish to English, and I am not bilingual in the
technical sense of the term. My entire 10-year academic training was
geared towards writing good idiomatic English, and as a result I
actually write better English than Finnish -- better in the sense of
more fluid and better structured, that is.
Here's a counter-argument: I have found that English native speakers,
especially if they drift into translation from other fields, can
actually produce _worse_ English, not to speak of worse translations.
Peter T. Daniels
Are you referring to the popular composer Arvo Mövement?
(It's also a matter of economics. The budget labels usually try not to
have more than a one- or two-sheet booklet, 4 or at most 8 pages. After
all, you have to pay the annotator, and the translators, and maybe even
the librettist's estate if you print the words.)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Jaakko Mäntyjärvi wrote:
> >
> > Here's a counter-argument: I have found that English native speakers,
> > especially if they drift into translation from other fields, can
> > actually produce _worse_ English, not to speak of worse translations.
>
>
> drmk is german language only.
Ich weiss nicht, ob Herr Jan Templiner drmk, nmk, oder rmc liest, und
daher "poste" ich an alle drei "Newsgruppen" bis weitere Information.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
> >
> > Loekie Ratelkous wrote:
> > >
> > > (snip)
> > > 2. I translate. You have found the reason why I translate from English
> > > into Dutch, not the other way around.
> >
> > That's the only way it should be done. I only translate into English.
> > (You'd think some of the smaller CD labels would finally realize that
> > they distribute unintelligible "English" versions of their liner notes!)
>
> While what you say of CD liner notes is true, I take exception to your
> general point. 90% of my work as a professional translator is
> translation from Finnish to English, and I am not bilingual in the
> technical sense of the term. My entire 10-year academic training was
> geared towards writing good idiomatic English, and as a result I
> actually write better English than Finnish -- better in the sense of
> more fluid and better structured, that is.
I am not being merely kind when I say that you are very much the
exception. Even the most fluent second-language speakers of English will
almost inevitably betray their native language somewhere in their
English writing, but _never_ have I found such a betrayal in your
writing. (At least, do you speak with an accent? --The only native Finns
I know are the Assyriologist Simo Parpola and his family, and his
brother the archeologist Asko Parpola, and their English is excellent
but accented. BTW Simo usually writes in German these days, and Asko in
English.)
> Here's a counter-argument: I have found that English native speakers,
> especially if they drift into translation from other fields, can
> actually produce _worse_ English, not to speak of worse translations.
You're telling me!! I just spent $75 for a coffee-table *History of
Writing* published by Flammarion in 2001, and the essays, which are
mostly by distinguished French scholars, were translated by
(native-English-speaker) translators who obviously hadn't the slightest
idea what they were talking about, and the texts, while fully
grammatical, are in places unintelligible gibberish.
(You can see my translations from French in *From Cyrus to Alexander: A
History of the Persian Empire*, by Pierre Briant, and from German in
*Introduction to the Semitic Languages: Text Specimens and Grammatical
Sketches*, by Gotthelf Bergsträßer, both published by Eisenbrauns; and
from both languages in several chapters of *Civilizations of the Ancient
Near East* [orig. pub. Scribners] and in two volumes of source readings
in biblical studies published by Eisenbrauns.)
Coby Beck
> Coby Beck wrote:
> >
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:3E399E...@worldnet.att.net...
>
of
> > > them" if the original had been "What's more beautiful than one smiling
> > > soprano?"; but to "What's more beautiful than a smiling soprano?" you
> > > could answer "Several of them."
> >
> > Well, I think I'm intelligent (despite being in Harrington's killfile
and
> > still responding to **o*** - sorry) and have spoken english for 37
years. I
> > had a father who always tried to make me say "It is I" rather than "It's
me"
> > so am not unaware of technicalities of grammar. But I see no semantic
> > difference at all between "a soprano" and "one soprano" in the above
usage
> > and can't imagine why one should be replied to differently than the
> > other...?
>
> I _think_ the problem lies in the antecedent of "them." There's no
> plural for it to refer to. But it's a very subtle point and ought to be
> considered by those who specialize in analyzing noun phrases.
Actually, I think I see a problem after all, but don't know if it is the one
you mean. One should be able to substitute the answer in place of the
"What..."
ie Q: "What is ...."
A: "<answer> is ..."
But using this logic, the only correct response that comes to mind would be:
Q: "What [is] more beautiful than one smiling soprano?";
A: "A group of smiling sopranos [is more beautiful etc..]
Dr.Matt
In that case, the Gilbertian locution "a bevy of beautiful maidens"
would seem to apply....
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a trip to the bathroom."
Peter T. Daniels
Yes -- that's exactly how syntacticians investigate such questions.
Dr.Matt
Syntacticians like to complain about such usages as "Hopefully, Fred
will succeed." The complaint is usually that the adverb "Hopefully" is
not really modifying the verb in this sentence. The same folks, in the
same paper, have no trouble writing "Theoretically, such a sentence
could mean that Fred will succeed hopefully, rather than, say,
succeeding cynically." In so doing, they use "theoretically" in a
construction analogous to the original use of "Hopefully". I think the
last time I saw this sort of thing happen, it was in a William Safire
column, and I'm still not sure he wasn't being tongue-in-cheek about it.
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
> drmk is german language only.
Ich bitte um Entschuldigung. Es war unachtsam von mir, die andere zwei
Gruppen ausser rec.music.classical nicht wegzunehmen. Meine Antwort war
ja nur für Herr Daniels bestimmt.
Jan Templiner
> Are you referring to the popular composer Arvo Mövement?
No, I was referring to movement as in "first movement of X".
> (It's also a matter of economics. The budget labels usually try not to
> have more than a one- or two-sheet booklet, 4 or at most 8 pages. After
> all, you have to pay the annotator, and the translators, and maybe even
> the librettist's estate if you print the words.)
Yes, I understand that. I don't expect the Naxos notes to be any good,
and usually my expectations are fully met. :)
But the small full-price labels IMO should take a bit more care of their
products.
Jan
Jan Templiner
> Ich weiss nicht, ob Herr Jan Templiner drmk, nmk, oder rmc liest, und
> daher "poste" ich an alle drei "Newsgruppen" bis weitere Information.
As of now, I'll be reading rmc also, at least until I find it utterly
boring or something. :)
Jan
Jan Depondt
"frits van lijf" <ajgv...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
news:b1g4lq$11u038$1...@ID-160930.news.dfncis.de...
| U gelieve er rekening mee te houden dat NL.MUZIEK.KLASSIEK een
| Nederlandstalige nieuwsgroep is.
|
| Frits van Lijf
|
|
There's a possibility that participants (in this discussion) in
de.rec.musik.klassik and rec.music.classical don't understand Dutch.
--
Jan Depondt
____________________________
mail: jdptATwanadoo.nl
Jan Depondt
|
| "Jan Depondt" <jdno...@wanadoo.nl> schreef in bericht
| news:b1g9q3$120qnj$1...@ID-79646.news.dfncis.de...
| >
| > "frits van lijf" <ajgv...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
| > news:b1g4lq$11u038$1...@ID-160930.news.dfncis.de...
| > | U gelieve er rekening mee te houden dat NL.MUZIEK.KLASSIEK een
| > | Nederlandstalige nieuwsgroep is.
| > |
| > | Frits van Lijf
| > |
| > |
| >
| > There's a possibility that participants (in this discussion) in
| > de.rec.musik.klassik and rec.music.classical don't understand Dutch.
|
| "oproep" alleen en uitsluitend
| in NL.MUZIEK.KLASSIEK heb gedaan.
|
| En zo ver in weet is hier de voertaal Nederlands.
|
| Frits van Lijf
|
|
To me it seems to be quite useless (not to say st....) to ask people in the
Dutch newsgroup ONLY to write in Dutch. If you want to see any result, it's
better to ask so in all newsgroups involved.
Jan Depondt
|
|
| Sinds je kennelijk niet meer in staat bent om over muziek te schrijven
| schijn ik een dankbaar "object" te zijn waar je je frustraties op kunt los
| laten.
| (Enkele andere personen in deze ng. zijn mij voor gegaan.)
|
| Als dat voor jouw "bevrijvend" werkt, ga rustig je gang.
|
| Welk onderwerp dat je in deze nieuwsgroep aansnijdt of een reactie op een
| bijdrage, die niet over muziek gaan, zullen door mij niet meer worden
| beantwoord.
|
| Frits van Lijf
|
|
LOL
--
Jan Depondt
(remembering some messages about birthdays and stuff like that)
Bill Pittman
"Loekie Ratelkous" <l...@12move.nl> wrote:
> We (Dutchmen) were satisfied, but now a candidate-member (who could not
> sing...) behaved that the Germantext deviates strongly in meaning from
> the Italian, only to make it possible to sing this German text.
>
> Does anyone know the truth in this matter? Has somebody a concise
> translation in German, English, or preferably in Dutch? Any translator
> pitying us?
There is a published English translation, that I sang about 25 years
ago. It is VERY suggestive, as I have previously posted. I remember no
more about it, but a music store could probably locate a madrigal
collection that contains it.
Loekie Ratelkous
Thanxs. Ill search there!
L.