New project at CodePlex for DbLinq

[yuniti]

I've started a new project over at CodePlex for DbLinq. I've noticed
the Google project has come to a crawl and has gotten very little
support lately.

I've added a good number of new features and bug fixes to DbLinq, and
as my request to be added to the Google group has gone unanswered,
I've checked in my changes over at CodePlex.

Project page can be found here:
http://dblinq.codeplex.com/

Some improvements/bug fixes:
* Support for Array.Contains() (translates to sql IN(array values))
* Support for multiple-column primary keys
* Support for Table<>.Add() for adding child/dependent rows

Any support is welcome/requested. Just leave a note on the CodePlex
page and I'll add you as a dev.

[Jonathan Pryor]

On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 19:30 -0700, yuniti wrote:
> I've started a new project over at CodePlex for DbLinq. I've noticed
> the Google project has come to a crawl and has gotten very little
> support lately.

I understand that the Google project seems like it's slow, but the
mailing list is still somewhat responsive, and we're quite willing to
add new commiters to the project. I don't understand why you felt the
need to fork the project at codeplex. (It's not like we've had any
major discussions on the list about intractable differences of opinion
on how to manage and run the project. To the contrary, when it isn't
quiet there's been no flaming of late to speak of...)

Rephrased another way, why place your fixes at codeplex instead of
contributing them back here? This will only increase maintenance burden
if we try to keep the two projects in sync with each other (and at
present, why shouldn't we try to keep them in sync?), and increase the
likelihood that fixes made in one branch won't make it to the other.

Would you be interesting in merging your changes back into the Google
repository so that we don't split our efforts?

Thanks,
- Jon

[Andrus]

> I've started a new project over at CodePlex for DbLinq.

This fork seems to be huge waste of open-source development limited
resources.
I do'nt see reason for it.

Andrus.

[Marcos Boyington]

Hi Jonathan! Sorry if my "branching" at codeplex was taken as an offense,
that was in no way my intention! I definitely have nothing against the
direction you guys have taken - as a matter of fact, I wanted some of your
direction with my bug fixes! I very much wanted to help you guys with the
project - problem was, I had no way of contacting you! I tried getting
email addresses for the most active developers (yourself included), but
Google Code does not have it available.

I also tried posting bug reports on the google code page (saying I had a fix
and if I could be added as a developer), and again, no response! That was
actually my main reason for going with CodePlex - not because I wanted to
branch from your guys' amazing work (in fact, I'd love to combine it all),
but because google code was a huge discouragement in having me be part of
your group/effort.

The beauty of CodePlex is it's quite easy to contact the
developers/administrators of the project to be added to the project. I
think this could greatly help in having other developers such as myself help
out, even if only little bits.

I'm not sure where to go from here - I could/would gladly closedown the
CodePlex project and submit my changes to the Google Code group, but as I
said, I really do think it's a major detriment to the project as it's quite
difficult to join in the effort. I assumed that you guys were in contact
via mailing list or personal email (As I saw your check-ins), but that
doesn't help much when someone new wants to join in.

Let me know how you'd like to proceed. I definitely do not want to branch
and want all of us working on the same thing. If you're up for trying
CodePlex, I can add you all as managers there and also would gladly do the
integration of the efforts from the google group.

- Marcos Boyington

[Pascal Craponne]

Hi Marcos,

I'm one of the two project admins (the other one being Jiri Moudry, DbLinq's original developper).

We always accept suggestions, patches, and contributors. I've always, even if my professional activity doesn't allow me to be as available as I would, answered to people willing to help the project.

It is understable, that maybe guided by some disappointment you forked the project, and I think no one has to object against this. The license allows it, and you are free. 

I just took a look at the google group and searched for "yuniti". I found only 3 messages from you, and 2 of them are dated from today. So this leaves you only one unsuccessful try before getting the project forked... Patience is something to learn :)

So

- we're all working on DbLinq for free, following different purposes, going from fun to real production needs.

- if you submit patches on the group, we'll review and commit them.

- if you want to become a contributor, just say the magic words: "I want to be a contributor, because... " (and fill in the blank) 

- if you want to carry on alone on codeplex, no problem, we'll also review your patches and apply them to DbLinq on google code if we like them (since your license also has to be MIT).

Cheers (and by advance, welcome to contributors :)),

Pascal.

[Jonathan Pryor]

/me has a dawning realization...

Oh, you were using the Issue submission form!

I think the problem here is that more people pay attention to the
mailing list than the Issue page. (At least, I first visited the issue
page *today*, while trying to see which issues you posted. As you said,
you filed an issue and mentioned that you had a fix for it...)

So, an aside: normal etiquette when using bugzilla/etc. and you have a
patch is to file the bug and the patch (which you did), and if you don't
get a response after a reasonable period of time (~1 week or less) to
ask on the mailing list, as there are often slackers like me who forget
that bugzilla exists but do pay attention to the mailing list.

(Though given the way things are going, we either need to hold more
discussions on the mailing list, or better integrate the issues page
into our process. I think it's obvious at this point that not enough
people actually read the issues page. :-(

So Yuniti, don't take it personally that we didn't respond at the issue
page. The issue page currently seems to be a forgotten
afterthought. :-(

All that said, if you would like to contribute to DbLinq (as I'm sure
you would), Pascal would be more than happy to add you as a committer to
the project. All you need to do is ask. :-)

Thanks,
- Jon

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 14:46 +0000, Jonathan Pryor wrote:
> /me has a dawning realization...
> Oh, you were using the Issue submission form!
> I think the problem here is that more people pay attention to the
> mailing list than the Issue page. (At least, I first visited the issue
> page *today*, while trying to see which issues you posted. As you said,
> you filed an issue and mentioned that you had a fix for it...)
> So, an aside: normal etiquette when using bugzilla/etc. and you have a
> patch is to file the bug and the patch (which you did), and if you don't
> get a response after a reasonable period of time (~1 week or less) to
> ask on the mailing list, as there are often slackers like me who forget
> that bugzilla exists but do pay attention to the mailing list.
> (Though given the way things are going, we either need to hold more
> discussions on the mailing list, or better integrate the issues page
> into our process. I think it's obvious at this point that not enough
> people actually read the issues page. :-(

Possibly a dumb question; but can the Google Issues "app" notify the
mailing list when something is created/commented/etc... This list is
fairly low volume [and generally very interesting] so it doesn't seem
like the "extra" traffic would be a problem.

[Avery Pennarun]

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 7:14 AM, Marcos Boyington <mar...@yuniti.com> wrote:
> Hi Jonathan!  Sorry if my "branching" at codeplex was taken as an offense,
> that was in no way my intention! I definitely have nothing against the
> direction you guys have taken - as a matter of fact, I wanted some of your
> direction with my bug fixes!  I very much wanted to help you guys with the
> project - problem was, I had no way of contacting you!  I tried getting
> email addresses for the most active developers (yourself included), but
> Google Code does not have it available.

Hi Marcos,

You realize that dbl...@googlegroups.com is an open mailing list that
anybody can join, right? It seems to be pretty active with
discussions.

I think if nobody monitors the issue tracking system, it might be best
to shut it down entirely:
http://alumnit.ca/~apenwarr/log/?m=200806#28

Have fun,

Avery

[Pascal Craponne]

It is possible. We decided to set Jon Pryor as recipient for all email notifications related to issues. I don't know if we could set this list a recipient too, and I don't know if it's a good idea.

[Jonathan Pryor]

On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 13:39 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> Possibly a dumb question; but can the Google Issues "app" notify the
> mailing list when something is created/commented/etc... This list is
> fairly low volume [and generally very interesting] so it doesn't seem
> like the "extra" traffic would be a problem.

Yes it can. Alas, it can only be sent to one email address (odd, that).

So we could either send the issue emails to this list, or we could
create a new Google group specifically for the issue emails (and then
anyone could subscribe to that group if they want to receive Issue
emails).

I'm inclined to create a new group for issue emails, and will do so
unless a majority of people responding by tomorrow would rather use this
list.

- Jon

[Giacomo Tesio]

I agree for a different group.
Alternativelly we should allow some tagging for email coming from issue tracker (a [ISSUE] prefix in the subject or the so).


Giacomo

[Jonathan Pryor]

I don't think it's possible to use a custom prefix for issues, so I've create a new dblinq-bugs group at Google Groups, which should now receive issue emails.  Sign up at:

    http://groups.google.com/group/dblinq-bugs

- Jon

[yuniti]

Again no offense at all taken and I was in no way upset - I simply
figured as I got no response and I had these changes locally that I
didn't want to go to waste, that I may as well go to a different
medium where I knew I could get some work submitted.

The prolem I have with "convnention" is that, clearly, someone new
won't know what the convention is, and someone not new is "useless" as
they are already part of the project heh. The idea here is we want to
make it really easy/simple for new users to join in, and convention
won't help us there.

That's the nice thing about Codeplex - no convention. You just click
on a developer's name, and you're taken to a page where you can send
them a message. Unfortunately, Google Code doesn't have this option.
I realized after the fact (after having already created my group in
Codeplex) that all the activity happens here in the group - but there
isn't a strong linking between the forum posts and the google code
page (as opposed to Codeplex, where it's all inter-connected).

Again, I'd recommend you guys have a look at Codeplex. I have no
problem submitting my code changes here, but if you have a look over
there, you'll see the interface is quite nicer than Google Code +
Google Groups (at least, for the purpose of working on an open-source
project where we want other developers to join in).

I realize that an MIT license allows us to branch the source any time
we see fit, but that's somewhat pointless here as we all want the same
thing. I just get a feeling that it's a lot more difficult to
maintain this project and to get attention (and other developers)
using Google Code instead of Codeplex.

On May 14, 10:23 am, Jonathan Pryor <jonpr...@vt.edu> wrote:
> I don't think it's possible to use a custom prefix for issues, so I've
> create a new dblinq-bugs group at Google Groups, which should now
> receive issue emails.  Sign up at:
>
>    http://groups.google.com/group/dblinq-bugs
>
>  - Jon
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 09:29 +0200, Giacomo Tesio wrote:
> > I agree for a different group.
> > Alternativelly we should allow some tagging for email coming from
> > issue tracker (a [ISSUE] prefix in the subject or the so).
>
> > Giacomo
>

> > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Jonathan Pryor <jonpr...@vt.edu>

> > wrote:
>
> >         On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 13:39 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> >         > Possibly a dumb question; but can the Google Issues "app"
> >         notify the
> >         > mailing list when something is created/commented/etc...
> >          This list is
> >         > fairly low volume [and generally very interesting] so it
> >         doesn't seem
> >         > like the "extra" traffic would be a problem.
>
> >         Yes it can.  Alas, it can only be sent to one email address
> >         (odd, that).
>
> >         So we could either send the issue emails to this list, or we
> >         could
> >         create a new Google group specifically for the issue emails
> >         (and then
> >         anyone could subscribe to that group if they want to receive
> >         Issue
> >         emails).
>
> >         I'm inclined to create a new group for issue emails, and will
> >         do so
> >         unless a majority of people responding by tomorrow would
> >         rather use this
> >         list.
>

> >          - Jon- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Pascal Craponne]

Good score: the word "codeplex" appears 5 times in your message.

:)

[yuniti]

Heh yah that may have come out a bit repetitive, though to be fair I
think I mentioned Google Code about 4 times hehe.

In any case, seems people are pretty hardcore about having dblinq here
on google code. I'm one who believes in updating to newer
technologies if it makes the job easier, figured everyone here being
fans of linq would mean the same heh.

If you could please add me as a dev on the google code project so I
could submit my bug fixes, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Jonathan Pryor]

Do you have a gmail email address? We need a gmail email address to add
you to the project.

As for using codeplex, there are two problems with it.

1. We'd lose any Google link-fu in the domain change. Currently if you
search for DbLinq the Google Code page is the 2nd hit and the Google
Group is the 3rd hit. Under live.com, the first 9 hits are for us.
Dropping all this for codeplex would be a large hit.

2. More importantly, the only way to use codeplex (as far as I can
quickly see) is through a codeplex-specific source control program [0].
This is a non-starter for me, as I'm on Linux and do not want to
*require* Windows access to contribute to DbLinq. Google's svn support
is nicely cross-platform.

- Jon

[0]
http://www.codeplex.com/CodePlexClient/Wiki/View.aspx?title=HowToContribute

[yuniti]

Hi Jon,

Sorry about that, been a busy couple of weeks and I dropped off the
map heh.

Understandable with your point #1, even though this could be easily
fixed with some links. Codeplex actually works with pretty much all
major source control providers, including subversion (you can see the
configuration settings for SVN here:
http://dblinq.codeplex.com/SourceControl/ListDownloadableCommits.aspx).

One of these days I'd still like to get my changes up on the google
code repository, but I've been busy and it's probably going to be a
lot of work now as my tree is a couple months outdated.

Another downside of google code heh - the only way I can have you add
me is to publicly display my email on here. You can use admin (that
magical at sign) yuniti dot com.

On May 19, 7:26 pm, Jonathan Pryor <jonpr...@vt.edu> wrote:
> Do you have a gmail email address?  We need a gmail email address to add
> you to the project.
>

> As for usingcodeplex, there are two problems with it.

>
> 1. We'd lose any Google link-fu in the domain change.  Currently if you
> search for DbLinq the Google Code page is the 2nd hit and the Google
> Group is the 3rd hit.  Under live.com, the first 9 hits are for us.

> Dropping all this forcodeplexwould be a large hit.
>
> 2. More importantly, the only way to usecodeplex(as far as I can
> quickly see) is through acodeplex-specific source control program [0].

> This is a non-starter for me, as I'm on Linux and do not want to
> *require* Windows access to contribute to DbLinq.  Google's svn support
> is nicely cross-platform.
>
>  - Jon
>

> [0]http://www.codeplex.com/CodePlexClient/Wiki/View.aspx?title=HowToCont...

>
>
>
> On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 17:53 -0700, yuniti wrote:
> > Heh yah that may have come out a bit repetitive, though to be fair I
> > think I mentioned Google Code about 4 times hehe.
>
> > In any case, seems people are pretty hardcore about having dblinq here
> > on google code.  I'm one who believes in updating to newer
> > technologies if it makes the job easier, figured everyone here being
> > fans of linq would mean the same heh.
>
> > If you could please add me as a dev on the google code project so I
> > could submit my bug fixes, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
>
> > On May 18, 8:26 pm, Pascal Craponne <pic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Good score: the word "codeplex" appears 5 times in your message.
> > > :)
>
> > > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 23:45, yuniti <ad...@yuniti.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Again no offense at all taken and I was in no way upset - I simply
> > > > figured as I got no response and I had these changes locally that I
> > > > didn't want to go to waste, that I may as well go to a different
> > > > medium where I knew I could get some work submitted.
>
> > > > The prolem I have with "convnention" is that, clearly, someone new
> > > > won't know what the convention is, and someone not new is "useless" as
> > > > they are already part of the project heh.  The idea here is we want to
> > > > make it really easy/simple for new users to join in, and convention
> > > > won't help us there.
>

> > > > That's the nice thing aboutCodeplex- no convention.  You just click

> > > > on a developer's name, and you're taken to a page where you can send
> > > > them a message.  Unfortunately, Google Code doesn't have this option.
> > > > I realized after the fact (after having already created my group in
> > > >Codeplex) that all the activity happens here in the group - but there
> > > > isn't a strong linking between the forum posts and the google code

> > > > page (as opposed toCodeplex, where it's all inter-connected).
>
> > > > Again, I'd recommend you guys have a look atCodeplex.  I have no

[Jonathan Pryor]

On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 10:29 -0700, yuniti wrote:
> Sorry about that, been a busy couple of weeks and I dropped off the
> map heh.

No problem.

"admin (that magical at sign) yuniti dot com" has been added as a
committer, so whenever you get time again feel free to merge your
changes.

- Jon