Amazon Associate, Pattern: Hopper / Fees, Anti-Pattern(?): Sponsor

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Joshua Stults

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Jan 9, 2011, 12:30:57 PM1/9/11
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I'm looking for feedback (forgiveness [0]) from the group. I started
an Amazon Associates account for Dayton Diode and added banners and
some add links to the site [1]. I think this is a good way for folks
to support us who may not be able to afford the membership fee every
month. An especially good way for starving college students (SCSs) to
help since they have to buy textbooks, and used ones on amazon are
usually the cheapest. I also have a feeling that SCSs will also turn
out to be some of our very valuable members.

One of the concerns with this is that we might be flirting with the
Sponsorship Anti-pattern [2], to the detriment of the Membership Fees
Pattern [3]. Think about it, take a look at the post and the site
with the banner adds [1], and let the me / the group know if you think
this is veering too commercialistic. I doubt that the advertising
revenue from this will ever amount to very much (maybe we can buy
pizza for the monthly meetings!), so the bulk of our operating
expenses will be covered by member dues for the foreseeable future,
but I think this is a good discussion to have.

[0] http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/The_Grace_Hopper_Pattern
[1] http://www.daytondiode.org/2011/01/dayton-diode-is-amazon-associate.html
[2] http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/The_Sponsoring_Anti-Pattern
[3] http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/The_Membership_Fees_Pattern

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Joshua Stults
Website: variousconsequences.com
Hackerspace: daytondiode.org

tospaceandback

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Jan 9, 2011, 2:29:48 PM1/9/11
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I agree. Good discussion needed:
- I think this is a good idea as a way to gain some additional
income. At this point every little bit helps.
- It's not really a corporate sponsorship, and I think that we know
NOT to rely on this as sustainable (main) source of income.
- What we should do is advertise this IN ADDITION to the membership
fee. Something like "Here's another way for members to support Dayton
Diode". Not as a substitute to membership.
- This seems like the right time to update the charter section about
membership levels. Having a student membership class would increase
participation by HS and college students (minimum age would have to be
18).

There's my thoughts, that will be $0.01
Respect,
-G

Joshua Stults

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Jan 9, 2011, 5:13:22 PM1/9/11
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On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:29 PM, tospaceandback <greg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> - This seems like the right time to update the charter section about
> membership levels.  Having a student membership class would increase
> participation by HS and college students (minimum age would have to be
> 18).
>
This gives me an opportunity to ask forgiveness yet again; I already
put a "friend" category on the paypal membership dues button on the
site. $15/ month seems like the going rate (Hive13 and LVL1 are
charging $13.37 for their second tier membership class).

What benefits do second tier members get? How about classes at cost
(so they just pay for supplies if any), and a sweet, highly desirable
user account on the hot new daytondiode.org domain? Full participaton
and use of the space when it is open, but no thumb in the consensusing
and no keys. 133th4x...@daytondiode.org is sure to go fast...

> There's my thoughts, that will be $0.01

Check's in the mail ; - )

Joseph Mckibben

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Jan 9, 2011, 5:38:15 PM1/9/11
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Yeah I think it is important to consider that current friends of Diode option as a suggested so.action or something. Any new membership types really need to be consensed on at a monthly meeting.

I would agree that those are good restrictions for a membership like that though.

When I was thinking of it earlier, I kind of split membership into two categories, full membership and limited membership. And I figured both could have a student discounted price.

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Joseph Mckibben

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Jan 9, 2011, 5:39:20 PM1/9/11
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I meant a suggested donation amount, sorry for the confusing typo.

tospaceandback

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Jan 9, 2011, 10:16:53 PM1/9/11
to Dayton Diode
Yup, this is definitely an agenda topic for our monthly meeting, as
the membership is part of our charter agreement with DMA, and any
changes to that need to be consented on by the group. I do appreciate
the initiative but lets try and keep the fledgling community involved
in the decisions. Thanks!


On Jan 9, 5:39 pm, Joseph Mckibben <joe.mckib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I meant a suggested donation amount, sorry for the confusing typo.
> On Jan 9, 2011 5:38 PM, "Joseph Mckibben" <joe.mckib...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah I think it is important to consider that current friends of Diode
> > option as a suggested so.action or something. Any new membership types
> > really need to be consensed on at a monthly meeting.
>
> > I would agree that those are good restrictions for a membership like that
> > though.
>
> > When I was thinking of it earlier, I kind of split membership into two
> > categories, full membership and limited membership. And I figured both
> could
> > have a student discounted price.
> > On Jan 9, 2011 5:13 PM, "Joshua Stults" <joshua.stu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:29 PM, tospaceandback <gregmo...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>> - This seems like the right time to update the charter section about
> >>> membership levels. Having a student membership class would increase
> >>> participation by HS and college students (minimum age would have to be
> >>> 18).
>
> >> This gives me an opportunity to ask forgiveness yet again; I already
> >> put a "friend" category on the paypal membership dues button on the
> >> site. $15/ month seems like the going rate (Hive13 and LVL1 are
> >> charging $13.37 for their second tier membership class).
>
> >> What benefits do second tier members get? How about classes at cost
> >> (so they just pay for supplies if any), and a sweet, highly desirable
> >> user account on the hot new daytondiode.org domain? Full participaton
> >> and use of the space when it is open, but no thumb in the consensusing
> >> and no keys. 133th4xordoo...@daytondiode.org is sure to go fast...
>
> >>> There's my thoughts, that will be $0.01
>
> >> Check's in the mail ; - )
>
> >> --
> >> Joshua Stults
> >> Website: variousconsequences.com
> >> Hackerspace: daytondiode.org
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dayton Diode" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to dayton...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>
> <dayton-diode%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<dayton-diode%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

Joshua Stults

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Jan 9, 2011, 11:56:31 PM1/9/11
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On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 10:16 PM, tospaceandback <greg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yup, this is definitely an agenda topic for our monthly meeting, as
> the membership is part of our charter agreement with DMA

Copy; changes to the charter are on the (slow, industrial age, slow,
old-fashioned, did I mention slow?) monthly decision loop.

This particular one is easily fixed: I just delete the little option
from the drop down box, no fuss, no muss. I've only got about 20
minutes invested in those silly little buttons so it's no big deal.
The fact that it is such a simple thing makes a good point of
discussion though. Why can't we get "electronic thumbs up/down" from
the ~10 folks who paid dues this month, ping DMA with the proposed
change, and put this to bed in a matter of days? This decision has no
*physical* repercussions; it is completely virtual.

I know, I know, we'll talk about talking about deciding faster at the
meeting next month...

Said meeting being four days before our open house: AHHHH!!!!11!eleventyone!!1

Maybe it's too hard to do a "consensus process" over an email list;
I'm not an expert on that. I'd love if an expert would weigh in here
and let us know if it's a possibility though.

--
Joshua Stults
26 days 13 hours 3 minutes 53 seconds

Joseph Mckibben

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Jan 10, 2011, 8:25:23 AM1/10/11
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Well yes I think we all understand that it is slow and maybe in someways counter intuitive. And even one could say a little old fashioned. But the way we decided to do it,.. the way that we did it, is because of how this group works. (A good example of this is the recent thread on internet for the space, how many paying members really chimed in on the discussion?) Maybe in the future as the group changes, the way we make decisions may change as well. But for right now we have an obligation to follow our rules.

And another note about the consensus process. It requires that we discuss the topics and get everyone's opinion. Which I think is a little hard to do on the internet. It is difficult to have a controlled focused discussion on the Google group, well at least in my opinion.

And yes it would be great to have this new membership stuff figured out by the open house. I guess another possibility is to have a scheduled work day to figure this stuff out and have it ready to be consensed on at the meeting. Or it may even be considered an emergency meeting and consence at the meeting but we must have a quorum.

On Jan 9, 2011 11:56 PM, "Joshua Stults" <joshua...@gmail.com> wrote:

Joshua Stults

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Jan 10, 2011, 11:13:26 AM1/10/11
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On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Joseph Mckibben <joe.mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well yes I think we all understand that it is slow and maybe in someways
> counter intuitive. And even one could say a little old fashioned.

I like the "consensus process"; I think it makes sense for this sort
of group. The only thing I think is old fashioned is requiring a
synchronous, collocated meeting. We live in a networked age:
asynchronous and distributed. I think it would be great if we could
move towards that kind of model (still consensus though, of course).
Maybe we've got some folks who actually view the slow pace and face to
face as a feature not a bug: OK, I think Dayton Diode is cool enough
that I can live with that minor annoyance.

> But the
> way we decided to do it,.. the way that we did it, is because of how this
> group works.

I don't want to come across as second guessing you founding few (thank
you for all your efforts keeping the flame lit for the past couple
years!!). I really appreciate what you guys have done to lay the base
for a really cool thing.

> (A good example of this is the recent thread on internet for
> the space, how many paying members really chimed in on the discussion?)

I agree; that's a good example (thank you for taking the initiative to
kickstart it btw). Here's the folks I have making a contribution to
that discussion (pm is full-up paying member):
- Joe (pm)
- Josh (pm)
- Chad (pm)
- Kevin
- Dean
- J (pm)
- Clayton (who is apparently hanging ten devices off of a hacked
wrt54g, cool!)
- Brandon
- Chris (pm)
- Jason (pm)
Notably absent from the discussion was Angus, but we talked to him on
Sat and he's working a different angle. So as a proof of concept,
we'd have needed Angus to throw in a quick "thumbs down: I'm working a
different angle, let me tell you about it", and we'd have a complete
consensus process (consensus gurus please correct me if I'm missing
something).

> Maybe in the future as the group changes, the way we make decisions may
> change as well. But for right now we have an obligation to follow our rules.
>

Fair enough of course; I hope my minor infraction will be viewed in a
positive light for what it produces in this discussion.

> And another note about the consensus process. It requires that we discuss
> the topics and get everyone's opinion. Which I think is a little hard to do
> on the internet. It is difficult to have a controlled focused discussion on
> the Google group, well at least in my opinion.
>

I disagree. The mail list is just one way to go with this (one that I
think would work, but I'd like to hear reasons why I'm wrong).
Alternatively, lots of open source projects use a wiki, where folks
put their two cents in on an issue page and sign their name to it.
Discussion ensues and eventually {maybe even more slowly than face to
face : - ( } consensus is reached. Maybe, if there are unresolved
issues from the wiki we could sweep them up at the monthly meetings;
people are generally less confrontational/disagreeable in a
face-to-face.

> And yes it would be great to have this new membership stuff figured out by
> the open house. I guess another possibility is to have a scheduled work day
> to figure this stuff out and have it ready to be consensed on at the
> meeting. Or it may even be considered an emergency meeting and consence at
> the meeting but we must have a quorum.
>

Good idea; having "bite sized" chunks to present to the group for
decision is usually best.

Just to be clear: My beef is not with the consensus process. My beef
is with the nonadaptive, schedule-driven decision process currently in
place of what could be a dynamic, event-driven one. I understand this
won't change before the next meeting (if ever), and I'm fine with
that. We still need to discuss / think about this though.

--
Joshua Stults
26 days 1 hour 46 minutes 37 seconds

Joseph Mckibben

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Jan 10, 2011, 1:23:56 PM1/10/11
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I agree that adding some sort of internet based decision making system is a good idea. And I do think that our face to face meetings are a plus.

And the current charter was never thought to be a solution to all our problems. And we had noted that if changes did need to be made that they could be. We just haven't put that into an agenda yet.

Definitely viewed in a positive light. I actually wanted to thank you for all the work you have been doing. You have been a great motivating force the past few weeks.

So does anyone object to having a meeting this Tuesday or maybe next Tuesday or maybe any other day that might work for everyone. And I guess this meeting would be mostly about getting things figured out so the space and group are ready for the open house.

On Jan 10, 2011 11:21 AM, "Joshua Stults" <joshua...@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris D.

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Jan 11, 2011, 10:56:06 AM1/11/11
to Dayton Diode
An online consensus tool would be good. If only for simple decisions,
like, "Propose adding a donation button to the website" or "Propose
holding open house on 2/5" It could be a simple polling mechanism
with different types of proposals, examples: measure support, official
consensus vote. Online consensus may require 100% participation
rather than the quorum for monthly meetings or we go with realtime
online meetings where quorum is sufficient. Proposer/Supporters could
contact members individually to prod them into signing in and
participating. This should be on the agenda for next meeting. I
think some way to meet online in realtime would be ideal.

Back to topic...

I like the idea of "friend" membership where they don't have unlimited
access, but they can use the space during some regular scheduled
hours, get regular newsletters, event invites (free admission), etc
Agree it should be on the agenda at next meeting.

What about collecting other donations? Can we also add to the agenda
discussion of online fundraising campaign? I've given to a few of
these in the past, $5-10 here and there. Kickstarter and Pledgie are
pretty common. Need a plan for how money will be used (space layout
and tool wishlist/prioritization). I personally look at "would I try
to sell my family on this?", and right now, I only have a somewhat
abstract vision to sell them. It would be nice to be able to say,
"hey, I'm in this community maker group and we are raising money to
buy <an expensive tool> to share with the community, would you like to
donate to the cause?"
> On Jan 10, 2011 11:21 AM, "Joshua Stults" <joshua.stu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Rashad Glover

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Jan 11, 2011, 4:35:56 PM1/11/11
to dayton...@googlegroups.com, rashad, Rashad Glover
I think we should have a community site with profiles where people simultaneousness pay there dues and access to the our site.  Here are to free examples I created. We could also use the amazon cart like the other members suggested and buy our Arduino or what ever  from our groups site and the kick backs got  the upkeep and or parts for our new CNC machine or Makerbot.  Also I already have a Makerbot, and a Sherline CNC mill so I could also help with the set up of that as well. Please check out my sites and get some ideas.



Rashad Glover
RashadGlover.com


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