Copper Mill Project Mailbox Flyer

[Eric Hoke]

Hi all,

I received the attached flyer concerning the Copper Mill project in my mailbox today and figured I'd share it with the group because the Davis Square Neighborhood Council is mentioned.

Cheers,

Eric

[Aaron Weber]

Has anyone figured out who distributed this flyer?

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[Elaine Almquist]

We created an official response to the flyers given how much discussion it spurred in just one day! Feel free to share this email or our linked Google Doc statement with anyone you wish.

DSNC statement on development flyers in Davis Square:

Hi, we're the Davis Square Neighborhood Council (DSNC). We're currently a group of about 150 community members who live, work, or frequent businesses in Davis Square.

We've seen that there is a flyer circulating around the neighborhood and in conversations online opposing a proposed development project on Elm St. that mentions our group, so we wanted to share some information about us:

First, the Davis Square Neighborhood Council did not create this flyer, and we haven’t taken any formal collective position for or against this development proposal.

For those who want to learn more or discuss the development more extensively, the developer in charge of the project, named Copper Mill, will be hosting another community meeting in January. They haven’t set a date yet, but we’ll continue to publicize those meetings through our channels as soon as they do. They’ve hosted four public community meetings about this project so far, and many of the DSNC members have been attending and participating in the conversation, expressing concerns, and asking questions. We’ve taken extensive notes, and they’re available for the public to read in this Google Drive folder. That folder also includes a project overview written by one of our members, some photos, and the official slide deck from Copper Mill.

The DSNC is actively recruiting new members, and regardless of whether you approve or oppose this particular project, we strongly encourage anyone who lives or works in Davis Square to join the Neighborhood Council.

Our meetings are open and we meet on the last Monday of each month. The next DSNC meeting is Monday, January 27th from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM at the West Branch Library community room. We will spend most of the agenda time for this meeting working on finalizing our bylaws. You can join our mailing list for meeting notifications at https://groups.google.com/g/DavisSquareNC.

We aren't officially accepted as a Neighborhood Council yet, but we've been meeting (and growing) monthly for a year, and we’re hoping to finalize our bylaws and send them to the City Council for approval as soon as possible. After the City Council approves a neighborhood council, it becomes the official body that will negotiate community benefits agreements with developers.

The rendering on the flyer isn't one of the ones provided by Copper Mill.  For accuracy, here are the most recent renderings of the two options shared at their last community meeting: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FqzVrnaRteDzJOMl5bIYhFL45qR2oJY6/view?usp=sharing

Option 1:

Option 2:

We hope to see you at our next meeting!

Elaine Almquist, temporary President, DSNC

Joel Sutherland, temporary Secretary, DSNC

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/CAF%3DbbnrPJLJwsNVeY8tAum7hbQKqTJBOOf%3DWadQjuDPic%3DcmYg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Jeff Byrnes]

Thanks for making that statement, Elaine. I think that will help clear things up for quite a few folks!

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On Jan 7, 2025 at 10:59 AM -0500, Elaine Almquist <elaine....@gmail.com>, wrote:

We created an official response to the flyers given how much discussion it spurred in just one day! Feel free to share this email or our linked Google Doc statement with anyone you wish.

DSNC statement on development flyers in Davis Square:

Hi, we're the Davis Square Neighborhood Council (DSNC). We're currently a group of about 150 community members who live, work, or frequent businesses in Davis Square.

We've seen that there is a flyer circulating around the neighborhood and in conversations online opposing a proposed development project on Elm St. that mentions our group, so we wanted to share some information about us:

First, the Davis Square Neighborhood Council did not create this flyer, and we haven’t taken any formal collective position for or against this development proposal.

For those who want to learn more or discuss the development more extensively, the developer in charge of the project, named Copper Mill, will be hosting another community meeting in January. They haven’t set a date yet, but we’ll continue to publicize those meetings through our channels as soon as they do. They’ve hosted four public community meetings about this project so far, and many of the DSNC members have been attending and participating in the conversation, expressing concerns, and asking questions. We’ve taken extensive notes, and they’re available for the public to read in this Google Drive folder. That folder also includes a project overview written by one of our members, some photos, and the official slide deck from Copper Mill.

The DSNC is actively recruiting new members, and regardless of whether you approve or oppose this particular project, we strongly encourage anyone who lives or works in Davis Square to join the Neighborhood Council.

Our meetings are open and we meet on the last Monday of each month. The next DSNC meeting is Monday, January 27th from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM at the West Branch Library community room. We will spend most of the agenda time for this meeting working on finalizing our bylaws. You can join our mailing list for meeting notifications at https://groups.google.com/g/DavisSquareNC.

We aren't officially accepted as a Neighborhood Council yet, but we've been meeting (and growing) monthly for a year, and we’re hoping to finalize our bylaws and send them to the City Council for approval as soon as possible. After the City Council approves a neighborhood council, it becomes the official body that will negotiate community benefits agreements with developers.

The rendering on the flyer isn't one of the ones provided by Copper Mill. For accuracy, here are the most recent renderings of the two options shared at their last community meeting: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FqzVrnaRteDzJOMl5bIYhFL45qR2oJY6/view?usp=sharing

Option 1:

<Elm st 1 1.jpg>

<Elm st 1 2.jpg>

Option 2:

<Elm st 2 1.jpg>

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/CAEK62JdUP%2Bge6eUtimmit60RaxWEdvtNo%3DU90hrZL2QF3xXiug%40mail.gmail.com.

[mem...@gmail.com]

I also received the flyer. does anyone know who's behind it?

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/3a34cc9c-7566-403b-83e9-17895ec567f6%40Spark.

[Elaine Almquist]

I had one on my door on Paulina St. this morning as well, so whoever it is, they are still out delivering them.

Elaine

[Callie Wiser]

I do not know, but it effectively draws attention to the fact that the only renderings we have seen from developers show only the first few stories. I am hopeful that this will result in Cooper Mill bringing a to-scale rendering of the building in-situ to the January meeting.

 

I haven’t journeyed to Union Square to see the building referenced in the last meeting with multiple stories set back from the street, and I am very curious what this might look like in reality.

 

Callie

 

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/CABqVqBZCMsD3KsER7x%2BkFV-UzZhhN-fATmVbkfP4OW%3D8VsiAjw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Jeff Byrnes]

I recommend a visit to both Union, to see the “bacon” building, and Central Square in Cambridge, to see Market Central, to get a sense of the scale of a modern high-rise with much shorter buildings around it.

For me, I find both to fit in just fine, and you barely notice them unless you’re looking from a distance.

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[mem...@gmail.com]

Would be good to track the area they're covering so we know who is getting this bogus rendering. 

I hope Cambridge Day covers it.

P.S. I hope people subscribe, i.e., make small recurring donation. 🙂

[maryno...@comcast.net]

I haven't seen Market Central but have been to Union Sqaure.  The high-rise buildings there are not in the heart of Union Square.  The building in this proposal is in the middle of Davis.

 

~Mary Juneau-Norcross

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/01598804-aed0-4cf1-82fe-50955276364c%40Spark.

[Jeff Byrnes]

Mary, it’s curious to me that you don’t think a building that’s roughly catty-corner from Union Square Plaza, and right next to Union Square Station, isn’t “in the heart of Union Square”.

For me, the plaza is the physical center of the square itself.

What do you consider the heart of Union Square?

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[Lois Russell]

I have been reading these emails and would note that the replies to people expressing doubt or disapproval of the proposed building are often dismissive or even hostile.  I would hope that we would all feel  comfortable writing here.  There are a lot of people who oppose the size of this building and everyone needs to be able to express an opinion.  (I am even hesitant to write this...)

Lois Russell 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/2123673224.1953201.1736285321016%40connect.xfinity.com.

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[Christopher Beland]

On Tue, 2025-01-07 at 17:58 -0500, Lois Russell wrote:

I have been reading these emails and would note that the replies to people expressing doubt or disapproval of the proposed building are often dismissive or even hostile.  I would hope that we would all feel  comfortable writing here.  There are a lot of people who oppose the size of this building and everyone needs to be able to express an opinion.  (I am even hesitant to write this...)

I'm honestly wondering what you are afraid will happen if you express opposition to the project in a mixed crowd? Having people disagree with us and debate controversial issues is a normal, healthy part of a functioning democracy. I disagree with my neighbors about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean we don't say hello on the sidewalk and have friendly chats.

There are plenty of reasons to support the project in some form, and I think another flyer would be in order. It could ask questions like: Do you really want a housing shortage so bad people are living in the woods near Alewife? Do you really want to force who love Davis to commute on congested roads from Winter Hill and Waltham because they can't afford to live in Davis? Do you really want to tear down 50-100 acres of suburban forest to make room for 500 more houses? Would you prefer several blocks of Somerville single-family homes and triple deckers to be bulldozed and replaced with three-story apartment buildings? Do you want landlords to continue to charge rents that are not affordable for most people? Do you want more families to be able to find apartments in the Somerville school district? Is any of that less important than "it's different than what's here now" or "I don't like how it looks" on the part of the people lucky enough to already live here?

"The heart of Davis Square" seems like exactly the place we should be putting high-density housing. The Red Line station is capable of moving tens of thousands of people per hour (and is getting a capacity upgrade with a new signal system and trains), and we've spent billions of dollars building, maintaining, and improving it. We're currently wasting a lot of that investment by surrounding it with one and two-story buildings, especially in the one or two blocks immediately around the station. Not to mention spectacular new bike infrastructure connecting to downtown and the Minuteman out to suburban jobs, and plenty of local jobs residents can get to by walking or hopping on the Tufts shuttle.

Instead of "How much housing is right for this block?", I think a better question would be, "Where do we want to build the housing we need?" If, as SomerVision proposes, we want to preserve the surrounding residential streets, then I think we should be considering rezoning to support several high-density developments in the Davis core. The Copper Mill project is more pedestrian-friendly than the Union Square and Central designs because the towers do not descend directly to the sidewalk. The 2-4 story pedestal keeps the frontage human-scale and comparable in height to buildings across the street, keeps Davis Square more like itself and less like Assembly or the Seaport, and also keeps high-level winds from being deflected toward pedestrians. The recessed tower would provide spectacular views of the surrounding hills and rivers and skylines as due to the towers scattered around Central Square, and the residents and street-level businesses would add some nice bustle to the square.

Looking at a satellite map of Davis and walking around the square, I find several locations where similar designs would be a good fit. Blocks to the north of existing housing and south of commercial lots are desirable so that a 4-story pedestal doesn't cast all-day shadows on the lower 1-2 stories of residential buildings. The towers cast longer shadows, but they are narrow and move around enough they are not really a problem for buildings and parks a block or two away. I would give the highest priority for redevelopment to the surface parking lots on either side of Day Street. First, the rear of the CVS building is currently a multi-story blank wall, just crying out to have something built next to it. Second, the first floor of a mixed-use building on the city-owned Herbert Street lot could be dedicated to a full-time farmer's market like Boston Public Market, or other community purposes, with the parking moved underground.

Third, the other major gap in our commercial streetscape is across Grove Street - the surface parking lots south of Kenney Park could be undergrounded to allow infill and a multi-story replacement for the buildings from the liquor store to Eat Greek. If we go further, channeling additional foot traffic onto a pedestrianized Elm Street would be ideal, so similar upzoning of (fourth) the Starbucks-Redbones block and (fifth) the HMart-Goodwill block would make sense. (Though I would want to retain a bFresh-sized grocery store somewhere in the square; McKinnon's existing space is a bit too small and it's nice to have competition.) That would get us perhaps 2,500 new housing units while increasing retail/restaurant frontage (especially if we do Newbury Street-style two-story retail). An alternate (sixth) location would be the Domino's block; putting underground parking there would allow us to turn the city-owned Elm Street parking lot/traffic island into a nice park and great performance space for Honk! or just regular summer days at the end of a pedestrianized Elm Street.

It would also make sense to rezone all the Commercial Core blocks to Mid-Rise. The Candlewick Press building and the stores on the north side of Highland Ave, for example, are currently allowed to rebuild up to 4 stories, but are still mostly single-story and wasting a lot of airspace. If they were allowed to put housing on upper stories, redevelopment might make more economic sense and actually start happening. I'm not sure we want towers right on the Somerville Community Path, so keeping existing height limits (maybe with a 5th or 6th story allowed if recessed to prevent additional shadows) would prevent buildings looming over the parks. (I love the tall buildings next to Boston Common and Central Park in NYC, but those are much bigger areas with plenty of room for sun to shine most of the day.)

-B.

[Jeff Byrnes]

Chris,

I like where your head’s at!

Lois,

I understand what you’re sharing, and I suggest that it’s ok to be concerned, or even antagonistic, to this project, but that also means you’ll hear pushback, and that’s part of being in society with others!

Many of us will disagree, and the key is to do it respectfully, even if we vehemently disagree.

As the saying somewhat goes, democracy is the worst, except for all the other kinds of government 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

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Jeff Byrnes
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[Lois Russell]

Well, for one thing I would not enjoy being lectured on the values of democratic participation...or being spoken to as though I have not thought through issues and consequences.  I think that many of the projects you mention are absolutely the way to go.  I do, however, think that a building of the height proposed is something I would not like to see in Davis. That does not mean that I, and others, want to plow up the forests or drive children from our town.  Let's tone it down.  I actually like change and actively support development of new housing, but I do not like big rise buildings sticking up like architectural sore thumbs.  I am also not sure they solve housing shortages.  Look what happened in Seaport.  But I really don't want to get into a long detailed discussion with you about all this.  I do think we all need to treat each other with respect.  And I trust that will happen in future communication.

[Jeff Byrnes]

Thanks Lois, I appreciate your reply.

I think, and this this not a push to get into “a long detailed discussion”, it is a gentle reply as a neighbor, that there is a dissonance to hearing what you said:

> “I think that many of the projects you mention are absolutely the way to go.  I do, however, think that a building of the height proposed is something I would not like to see in Davis”

Again: this isn’t an effort to get into “a long detailed discussion”, or castigate you.

Instead, I want to ask: if you’re OK with the Bacon building in Union, or Market Central, why you wouldn’t be OK with a similar building in Davis?

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[Marcie Campbell]

While I can’t speak for Lois, my issue with a 25-story building in Davis v. Union or Central Squares is based on location. Davis is an island surrounded by low residential development where Central and Union butt up against the tall buildings of Kendall and MIT. Union, and Kendall before it, had significant “open" space, parking lots and other lots used by industries that were failing or could move. (Thinking about Metropolitan Pipe, the Royal Laundry, that awesome junk yard, machine shops with incredible vintage signage, the radiator graveyard, etc.) And while I could find beauty in those spaces and enjoyed the character of them, I can understand and appreciate the change needed. It makes sense there.

Davis is different. There was significant community conversation over many years around revising the zoning ordinance to get us up to 6 stories and stepping down towards the residential area on all sides. Can we go taller than six? Perhaps. But 25 stories is a massive change in height in that location.

In addition to the housing crisis, I’m concerned with the independent retail character that is already being destroyed by speculative developers who’ve made a bad bet. Davis is suffering from both Scape/Copper Hill and Asana. The character of Davis is what brought us all here and we are losing it. And now we have a developer threatening us with continued empty storefronts in exchange for a massive tower. That doesn’t feel like a good faith negotiation.

I’m not against increasing density or change, I just think it needs to be done without destroying the character of the greater neighborhood. And like Lois, I’ve seen significant housing development over the last decades and I don’t see it moving the needle. I believe there needs to be a lot more density created around transportation hubs in the suburbs to help make a dent in the housing shortage of Greater Boston. (And no, I’m not suggesting we bulldoze acres of forests, building along train tracks should be fine. Though we might have to battle the Thoreau enthusiasts and open water swimmers, they might have an issue with condos on Walden Pond. Kidding, of course.) For those throwing NIMBY insults at your Davis Square neighbors, you’d be more accurate hurling them in Concord and Lincoln.

Do we need more housing in and around Davis? Definitely. But we don’t need to sell the soul of the community to get it. We need to work together to make sure that we get the best for Davis Square, both today and in the long run. That will require thoughtful discourse, patience and understanding of all views.

Respectfully,

Marcie

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/4cad71b0-0bb1-403f-a3db-6ba7a8ba46d5%40Spark.

[Robert Collins]

I just wanted to jump into this conversation. Seeing as last time I wrote something it got so many responses!

So I wanted to reply to Jeff. Even though I wasnt asked directly I still want to respond. In regards to Union Square Lois may not dislike those buildings but I do. Both buildings from the one across from Market Street and the “bacon” building which I didnt know people were calling it that I really dislike. 

I will be honest I grew up in this city born and raised and everytime I go down Union and see that really big building I become a little depressed. I remember what this square was like and just cant believe they would do that to union. Now that may not matter to you but it matters to me and to a lot of other people too. 

And also I know that what was there before was not nice but I can tell you when I looked at it it didnt make me depressed like that new building does. So call me old fashioned say im standing in the way of progress but you need to recognize that not everyone agrees with what you are proposing. And that goes for everyone here. Not everyone wants all these things and to criticize and to try to make people feel stupid or inferior for not agreeing with you is not cool. 

So Im sure theres alot of things we can agree on. For example, chris brought up some things that I think are good ideas. I didnt agree with everything but I just think being more respectful is a good thing we should do

As ive already said and I will repeat again for me this 25 story proposal is something I do not support I could give many reasons why but I could save that for another time. I just wanted to say the thing about respect and being considerate of others

So thats all for tonight

Goodnight!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 7, 2025, at 10:24 PM, Jeff Byrnes <je...@somervilleyimby.org> wrote:



To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/4cad71b0-0bb1-403f-a3db-6ba7a8ba46d5%40Spark.

[Roger Levy]

Good morning everyone!

Speaking as someone who was at ground zero for the development of a tall-building project just outside of Union, and who now lives in Davis: there is a lot of room to be pro-development overall, yet doubtful that a 25-story building is the right thing for this location in Davis Square.

One of the many reasons that urban densification can be tricky is because it depends on individual property owners’ willingness to sell or redevelop their parcels. A goal of adding 500 residential units (or more) is great, and wouldn’t it be wonderful if magically adding a handful of stories uniformly across Davis Square were a practical possibility? But in reality we are faced with piecemeal developments, and it’s reasonable to be concerned about a 25-story development for this parcel.

Let’s also keep in mind that there will already be plenty of impetus to go as big as possible from the developer. Expressing and acting on countervailing concerns – such as displacement of tenants, character of the neighborhood, maximizing community benefits – is up to us.

All the best,

Roger (he)

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/23AD7BE4-36B3-4B35-904B-131A6642CD26%40gmail.com.

[Zev Pogrebin]

Hello all,

The initial focus of this email thread is the anonymous mailer that was published. In my opinion, this poster was misleading because of the 'rendering'. Someone put in significant effort to generate a misleading image of the proposed project, publish a poster, and circulate that poster. I find it difficult to presume good faith on the part of those who created the poster when they could have used the official renderings of the project. I respect all of our differing opinions, but I think we should be clear in calling out actors who are operating dishonestly. These individuals make it difficult to have productive conversations concerning how we want to shape our neighborhood.

That being said, I appreciate the dialogue and I wanted to chime in with some thoughts on this conversation.

I respect the comments about the loss of commercial character, and it is a concern of mine as well. My question is: if you are concerned about losing retail character in Davis, what do you think about the Citizen's Bank building across the street at 212 Elm St? That building has two uses: offices and parking. It is the definition of sterile and contributes nothing to the community but a windswept block and some tax dollars. In this way, it is worse than Kendall, Seaport, and Assembly. In contrast, the proposed Copper Mill development is ideal for vibrant local businesses. The configuration of retail establishments on the floor plan of the new development is largely comparable to the current layout, and the 500 units of housing above will generate substantial new foot traffic for all nearby storefronts. Copper Mill's desire to limit resident parking means that our new neighbors will be more likely to shop locally in Davis vs. driving to a suburban shopping center. Also, with so much apartment rental revenue, the DSNC can attempt to negotiate with Copper Mill to require the storefronts to be even more affordable.

The bacon building has 1000 homes in it. Does it stick out like a sore thumb? Maybe. Is it depressing? I am OK with it but reasonable minds may differ. However, those 1000 homes are working to stabilize home prices, and that density allows awesome places to thrive like Bow Market. That building wasn't something that was done "to" Union Square but rather something that the people of Union Square (through the USNC) helped shape.

The housing crisis is a regional one, and we can't continue to blame suburban municipalities and do nothing. Lexington and Concord should be increasing their housing density as well. In my experience, all American communities have NIMBY tendencies regardless of whether we are already dense or not. My mom complains about new developments in Manhattan where I grew up and she lives in a 17-story building (but makes fun of Davis Square for being 'too suburban'). 

What I would ask from those who are strictly opposed to the development, is if you can break your opposition into problems that you have with the development that can be solved without fully killing the project. Copper Mill seems to be surprisingly open and flexible about some things (although they seem to be dead set on their 500-unit threshold). For example: 

- If 25 floors of height is too out of scale, is 10-15 OK if the building is bulkier?

- If there are issues with the storefronts, is there a layout that you think might be more conducive to local businesses?

- If we want independent businesses, perhaps the developer can subsidize rents for their commercial tenants as a community benefit.

- Etc...

There are plenty of opportunities in the future to oppose the project (zoning/permitting/etc), and this is the stage where the developer is asking for our input. If you all can provide constructive and concrete feedback on how the development can fit better into our neighborhood, the entire community will benefit (even the people who disagree and want a 57-story glass obelisk of student dorms and labs).

Thank you for hearing me out, and I am looking forward to continuing the dialogue at future meetings.

Best,

Z

On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 12:22 AM Robert Collins <rober...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/23AD7BE4-36B3-4B35-904B-131A6642CD26%40gmail.com.

[Julia Johnson]

5 Things

1) Taller buildings around transmit make sense, because people are more likely to not bring a car (if that's possible for them)

2) The financial and time strain on young people to find housing isn't good

3) Startups are hurt by the high prices of housing in this area

4) Small businesses need space to grow in the somerville area

5) More businesses in somerville means lower residential taxes

These are my personally held opinions and don't reflect the opinions of any corporate entities.

I would love to see a larger building in Davis, close to the T-Stop. I have friends who lived in Davis for many years, and they didn't have a car. If the building is proximal to JOBS/groceries/activities, there is less likely to be high car use, and more congestion. Jobs is the dominant variable here.

I worked in Davis at a start-up for 2 years, and the lack of affordable housing was a stress point for everyone on the team. This was a small team dedicated to using neural stimulation to help manage pain for patients with chronic pain (who are usually dependent on pain-management drugs).

I have taken entire weeks off of work to search for an apartment. It's an incredibly stressful and expensive process. The salary I was paid at the startup was below market rate for the role, and in hindsight, financially I would've been better off working for a larger company. AS the financial pressure increases on housing/food, start-ups like this will struggle to recruit staff.

At the startup, we didn't have enough space for certain labs and it made us less successful. We had an office mouse. We could've used to move to a cleaner/larger space, but the CEO wasn't interested because the pricing of space is so high.

I would love to see Davis transform to a space with housing and more start-ups that are driving towards goals that help people in medical or address climate change. The current "grid-lock" in boston on space/housing is making it hard for small companies to get underway. 

The taxes on residents would also not go up as much, as companies moved into Somerville.

Larger companies are expanding in the Seaport, but even with the higher salaries, people in my circle refuse to accept jobs there or commute there because of how much that would impact and *honestly ruin* their day. Housing pricing in the seaport are ridiculous, and not in reach for engineers.

I understand that change is uncomfortable, and the bacon building did change union square. However, if that building allows the health-tech or green-tech startups to flourish, I think a bit of temporary discomfort at the changed landscape is an acceptable trade off for solutions around healthcare and climate. The technology that startup was working on could help a patient population of 100 million have a quantitative improvement in their wellbeing(activity level) and reduction in their pain levels.

Happy to answer any questions, or field any counterpoints.

Best,

Julia

On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 12:22 AM Robert Collins <rober...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Lois Russell]

This is a great conversation.  I want to clarify that I don't like the Union or Central highrises.  Mistyped.  It absolutely makes sense to increase housing.    I think it is important to dig down into what people mean when they say they want to preserve the character of an area.  The architecture in Davis Square is nothing special.  Lots of blah buildings. A project that adds some architectural consistency makes sense. I suspect it has something to do with fearing it is the first step in "becoming Seaport."  Although developers sold the city of Boston their plans in Seaport promising an expansion of housing and a vibrant new community, it is an unattractive, unwelcoming area out of sync with the rest of the city. It is a cautionary tale. The only people I know who like living there are people who like having a parking garage under their building so they can drive in and out of the neighborhood easily.  People like Davis because it is an old-fashioned "town center"  where you don't need a car, can do your errands on foot, meet a friend for coffee, etc.  Scale is important.  The height of the building is dramatically different from the surrounding blocks. 

I did not prepare or distribute that flyer, but I agree it would be helpful if the renderings used by the developer showed the whole building within the context of the surrounding area.  I would like to see renderings that show how this will look as you approach Davis from Highland and College.  What will you see from Mass Ave.?  From Morrison and Cedar?  The visual impact of this building (probably steel and glass construction) will have an impact beyond Elm and Grove.

[michal]

Hi Elaine et al:

I have a question or two about these monthly meetings of the prospective DSNC.  (1) Who are the "members" of the DSNC?  (2) Are these monthly meetings, in fact, meetings of the DSNC, or are they public meetings?  (3) Are Robert's Rules of Order used at these meetings?

I ask these questions because of the following concerns.  (1) I believe that only "members "of the DSNC are entitled to compose, revise, or vote on the organization's bylaws and other internal matters.  (2) If these are public meetings, Robert's Rules of Orders should not apply.  The rules are intended for meetings of formal organizations and "voluntary associations," not open public meetings.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert%27s_Rules_of_Order,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_association.  Aside from this technicality, it is politically undesirable to impose the restrictions of Robert's Rules on a meeting open to the public, and also discourages public participation.  A less restrictive method of maintaining order should be used.

Thank you very much! 

[michal]

I agree with you, Robert.  And I'm a "newcomer" to Somerville, having been here only 30 years!

I'm skeptical of Copper Mill's contention that it can only execute the project if it's 500 units.  The City or the DSNC should demand to see detailed figures that justify that calculation.

[Paul Bamberger]

Hi all.  Let’s just be clear about whether a high-rise building would be for low income people. I can’t imagine that building would be for people making $30,000 or $40,000 a year, which is low-income (although you can't live on it, that's about as low as you can go and still afford to rent an apartment). I’m guessing you would have to earn at least $70,000 a year or more like $150,000 a year to afford those apartments or condos in the high-rise building they are proposing.  So this would be for "middle class" people as opposed to the super-wealthy.  I don't think we can say we are doing any "social justice" by letting a developer build something for people who earn $100,000 per year.  Know what I mean?

I would love it if someone told me I was wrong and it really would be for low-income people. But if the developers are claiming that they are building low-income housing, what is the basis of that claim?  I'd like to see some documentation on that!!  ☺️

If you look at the Ciampa Manor apartments at 27 College Ave, those are low income.  That's a 6 story or so building.  Are these new developers going to build something along the lines of Ciampa Manor but just super high-rise?  I doubt it!!  How many stories are they talking about, anyway?

Anyway, those are my two cents. Thanks for keeping the discussion going!!  I'm glad this is being openly discussed at least!  Peace! 

-- Paul Bamberger. Cameron Avenue, Somerville.

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[Jeff Byrnes]

Some useful info around building homes: it costs about $500–600k to build an apartment in greater Boston. That figure encompasses the costs of land, materials, labor, design, known as “hard costs”.

That’s encourages builders to “go bigger”, making it easier to recoup the costs involved & pay back a project’s financiers.

Here in Somerville, in addition to these hard costs, we also have a requirement that 20% of homes, in new buildings of 5 or more, be set aside as income-restricted homes.

This is good!

But it has a real effect on the cost of the building overall, and means that there need to be enough market-rate homes to subsidize the 20% that are income-restricted ones.

This 500-home building would create 100 income-restricted homes in Davis Square.

Paul Bamberger, this is how we get most new low-income housing (see: Assembly Row, Union Square). 100% income-restricted buildings do also get built, but they’re much more rare.

And really, we need more homes for middle-income & upper-income folks, too!

As Julia points out, even middle-income folks are being badly squeezed & need more abundant homes.

I encourage everyone that is nonplussed or opposed to a building like this to think about these trade-offs: a much larger building helps way more lower-income folks than a smaller one, and provides more opportunities for everyone overall.

Zev, this is what you were talking about in your reply.

All this is to say: I encourage everyone to consider what we gain with a larger building.

Sometimes, more is more!

-- 
Jeff Byrnes
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[PJ Santos]

As an add-on to the discussion between Paul and Jeff, those 400 non-subsidized houses will still help out a lot of lower income folks.

When a wealthier person moves into a fancy high rise, they vacate another apartment that can rent for cheaper. Another way of thinking about that is I'd rather have the wealthy people who work in Kendall Square moving into the high rise instead of competing with working class families for a triple decker!

There's been a ton of cool social science measuring this effect, researchers have been able to directly link new construction to better housing outcomes for bottom-quartile earners. (summary:

 https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/1/3/the-best-evidence-yet-for-the-housing-musical-chairs-theory 

some of the research: https://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1284&context=empl_research  

https://stephenhoskins.notion.site/Liang-Kindstr-m-2023-Does-new-housing-for-the-rich-benefit-the-poor-On-trickle-down-effects-of--982d9cca809b475b86faca56f131a99b

) 

Part of why housing in Boston is so terrible is that we haven't built much over the last 40 years, despite having a booming economy. A lot of us think it is the people, not the buildings that are important in preserving Somerville's character, and we should focus on being a welcoming city that allows more people to live here.

Personally, I get depressed when I see all the single story buildings in Davis, since it makes me think of all the friends that have had to move away, or the financial compromises I've had to make to be able to stay here.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/2b1a564d-a3a3-44a7-b418-2554ddbbaa2a%40Spark.

[Marilyn Altbush]

We have local elections this year. It is important that we demand our candidates take a position on this and all future development proposals in the city of Somerville.  I was under the impression that the Somervision 2040 plan was the vision statement and policy outline for future growth in our city. Currently buildings of this height have been limited to 'Transform' zones. All of Davis Square is listed as an 'Enhance' zone in Somervision 2040.  City officials: Define what 'Enhance' means?

 I'm not opposed to this building or its location, however I'm very concerned about the precedent that it sets. If city officials are willing to rewrite zoning laws for the first housing developer who makes a proposal then we the residents of this city are owed an explanation of how all future development will be regulated in 'Enhance' zones.

 We must demand that city officials be honest and transparent with us before the fall election season. Tell us what the true future Somerville will look like.

-Marilyn Altbush; Elmwood Street

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[Zev Pogrebin]

Marilyn,

Good point. I also hope to see a concrete position on zoning from candidates, and I think the piecemeal approach hurts pro-development and anti-development interests (for lack of a better description).

Zoning aside, I feel like this is the definition of an “enhance” project, not a “transform” project. This development retains a very similar retail setup as what we have now, simply adding hundreds of homes on top without displacing any residents. While it certainly is a big building, the uses and character of the neighborhood is not drastically altered; Davis square is already a transit rich dense residential/shopping/mixed-use neighborhood and 500 new apartments only enhances that. Thoughts?

Best,

Z

-Zev Pogrebin

---

From: daviss...@googlegroups.com <daviss...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Marilyn Altbush <meal...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2025 12:55:26 PM
To: Paul Bamberger <bambe...@gmail.com>
Cc: michal <arb...@gmail.com>; Davis Square Neighborhood Council <daviss...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [DSNC] Copper Mill Project Mailbox Flyer

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[Carol]

They were happy with just the profit from the lab building. I suspect that when Copper hill noted that we would be interested in housing, they went whole hog. Maybe they know that size building would not get approved, hoping for at least half. Too much of a stretch for me to accept. 

Although the article was not totally correct, it has certainly getting people to talk about it. I am sure that a lot of local residents have no idea what has been proposed.

Carol R

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.

[mem...@gmail.com]

I've seen and heard a lot of discussion about affordability... I had an opportunity to get some insights from involved with housing and thought I'd pass them along.

But first, a quick note about the number of floors... correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the developer has said it would be 25 floors. My impression from talking with him, the city, and a few other people is they are thinking more in the 12 to 15 floor range. Still shocking, but not 25. I also think 500 units is a ballpark figure designed to set our expectations - the final number will depend on the sq ft per floor, the overall revenue (which will include issues related to affordability), the cost of digging in a location with a very high water table, the cost of a parking garage (or not), etc., etc. They have made no promises other than they appear to really want to know what we want because they don't want to put time into a design only to have the community come after them with pitchforks.

Back to affordability - I am not an expert, it's complicated, and we should get a formal summary from the city. But roughly...

- Affordability is defined as a percentage of the Area Median Income (AMI), generally ranges from 30% to 110% and varies by family size.

1. Area Median Income - In 2024, the AMI was $148,900 for a 4 person Household (HH). Note: The household could have 1 to 4 incomes. The AMI for other HH sizes are percentages of HH4, as follows:

- 1 = 70%, 104,230

- 2 = 80%, 119,120

- 3 = 90%, 134,010

- 5 is 108%

- 6 is 124%

2. Household size - Each unit is assigned a HH size - (This isn't necessarily the number of people who will live there - it's used to determine the income restriction.)

3. AMI Tiers - The mix of AMI Tiers is negotiated by the city with the developer. Most Somerville housing is 50%, 80% and I believe 110%. Last year, HH1 at the 50% Tier was $52,115 (104230 x .5), at 80% was $91,200. The entire grid can be found here: 

https://s3.amazonaws.com/somervillema-live/s3fs-public/OSPCD-income-limits.pdf

The units designated affordable could all Tier 1 50% or half Tier 1 50% and half Tier 2 80%.

NOTE: income restrictions are waived for people on Section 8, etc. (problem here is it's hard to get on Section 8)

Example: Lottery for two units from May 2024: 

https://www.somervillema.gov/news/applications-now-open-two-income-restricted-somerville-rental-apartments-205-beacon-street

- Both units are 2 bedrooms, 

- Both can be HH size 2 to 5,

- One is Tier R1 (50%) and the other Tier R2 (80%), 

- The Tiers are defined by income ranges that are quite broad below the exact AMI. 

There are a million caveats, but if you win the lottery and are a HH 2 you can get into the Tier 1 50% unit up to $65,300 and the Tier 2 $104,200. Again, this is household, so could be two adults, each of whom are earning $32,650 or $52,100.

Thinking about what this means for the development - I don't know who pays the difference between the market and affordable rents - the developer? the City? the State? a mix? (If you know please chime in.) If it's the developer and we say we want to maximize Tier 1 50%, what does this mean for the market rent levels?

Hope this helps.

Mary Ellen

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[David]

The 25 floors was an example of how they could get 500 units while having the tower only take up a relatively small percentage of the floor area. With less extreme setbacks, it's likely the building could be built much shorter. In this round it seems like they heavily prioritized setbacks to provide as much open sky as possible. We'll see what designs they come back with after this round of feedback. People like to jump on the details of initial designs as if they're final. Let's not forget this is an iterative process, and it's early days still.

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[Christopher Beland]

On Tue, 2025-01-07 at 21:55 -0500, Lois Russell wrote:

I actually like change and actively support development of new housing, but I do not like big rise buildings sticking up like architectural sore thumbs.  I am also not sure they solve housing shortages.  Look what happened in Seaport.

Not sure what you mean by "what happened in Seaport"? Pretty much by definition, any additional housing - whether high-rise or low-rise - increases supply and decreases a shortage compared to what it would otherwise be. What the residential towers in Seaport do is add a substantial amount of housing to the local market and bring down prices compared to what they would otherwise be. Even building luxury housing helps because it means wealthy people can move out of slightly-less-luxurious housing and make room for slightly less wealthy people to move in there, and so on down the price chain. That doesn't mean the shortage isn't getting worse or that prices aren't going up.

What "solves" a shortage is building enough housing supply to keep up with demand. That's exactly what we see happen in U.S. cities that have no zoning restrictions or have plenty of available land to sprawl into. In Greater Boston, we've had decades of not building enough housing, so we have an enormous backlog of needed supply. That means even adding entire neighborhoods in Seaport and Assembly hasn't been isn't enough to keep up with population growth. To make the scale of the problem concrete, I'm reading here that the state is about 200,000 housing units behind for past population growth, and the MBTA service area needs to add 215,000 more units in the next 20 years to keep up with future population growth:

https://mass.streetsblog.org/2022/01/13/new-state-rule-would-force-suburbs-to-legalize-thousands-of-new-apartments-near-t-stops

I'm sure adding 100,000 units to the Boston metro area in the next 20 years would feel like substantial change in some neighborhoods. It will not "solve" the housing shortage. In fact, at that level of housing creation, the shortage would only get worse. We'd have to build more like 400,000 units to bring rents closer to 1990 levels in real terms by keeping up with growth and clearing out the backlog of people who would have already been living here if it had been cheaper all along (everyone from rich people in NYC getting a second apartment to poor people in southern New Hampshire moving closer to better jobs).

-B.

[Carol]

Don't count on the city council to act appropriately.

There was a project on Alwife recently that had a 1 family on it. It is zoned for 3 , 3 families under the new zoning.

The planning board did not agree with the plan, nor recommended it,

Despite 28 abutters complaining, and many that did not get to voice their opinion, it was approved by the whole city council for about 60-80 units. That councilor never mentioned the neighborhood objections. There were offered $100,000 and then it got approved. Sounds like a bribe to me.  Zoning will have to be changed again.

Carol R 

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[Christopher Beland]

On Wed, 2025-01-08 at 09:06 -0500, Lois Russell wrote:

The architecture in Davis Square is nothing special.  Lots of blah buildings. A project that adds some architectural consistency makes sense.

...

Scale is important.  The height of the building is dramatically different from the surrounding blocks. 

...

The visual impact of this building (probably steel and glass construction) will have an impact beyond Elm and Grove.

You also mentioned in a previous email you didn't like tall buildings sticking up like "sore thumbs". One way to make a tower in Davis feel less incongruous would be to build a cluster of several towers.

Given that you don't like the way Davis looks now, I'm not sure what sort of "consistency" you're asking for. Is there any architectural style that would make a tower something you would like to look at?

I'm a bit puzzled why merely being tall would be something that makes a building ugly. People generally seem to like looking at tall things. We like mountains. We seem to think church towers and steeples are magestic. People love the Eiffel Tower. We definitely like urban skylines - we put pictures of them on postcards and TV news backdrops. Every time I drive inbound over the Belmont hill on Route 2 and see the Boston skyline, I think, "nice city!" Climbing up the hill to the Tufts library and looking out over the landscape, I would expect to see tall buildings in core neighborhoods like downtown Boston, but also extending out along transit nodes to BU-Northeastern-BC, Lechmere-Union, Bunker Hill-Assembly, and Kendall-Alewife. Low buildings should be the ones less connected to high-volume transportation.

-B.

[Christopher Beland]

On Tue, 2025-01-07 at 23:37 -0500, Marcie Campbell wrote:

Davis is different. There was significant community conversation over many years around revising the zoning ordinance to get us up to 6 stories and stepping down towards the residential area on all sides. Can we go taller than six? Perhaps. But 25 stories is a massive change in height in that location.

What would be your "taller than six" height preference?

In addition to the housing crisis, I’m concerned with the independent retail character that is already being destroyed by speculative developers who’ve made a bad bet. Davis is suffering from both Scape/Copper Hill and Asana. The character of Davis is what brought us all here and we are losing it. And now we have a developer threatening us with continued empty storefronts in exchange for a massive tower. That doesn’t feel like a good faith negotiation.

I don't feel like the character of Davis has decayed since I moved here in 2008 or is in danger of slipping away. It has always experienced a lot of small business churn (am I remembering correctly that at some point we had three frozen yogurt places?) but that's true in any urban square. It felt pretty deserted and had lots of business failures during the worst of the pandemic, but as far as local retail is concerned, it seems to have bounced back to its normal self. Once HMart is open, it'll be better than 2008, which was before we had a bFresh that saved me the walk to Porter for groceries.

I believe there needs to be a lot more density created around transportation hubs in the suburbs to help make a dent in the housing shortage of Greater Boston. (And no, I’m not suggesting we bulldoze acres of forests, building along train tracks should be fine. [...]) For those throwing NIMBY insults at your Davis Square neighbors, you’d be more accurate hurling them in Concord and Lincoln.

I'm sure many people in Concord and Lincoln would prefer that the character of their communities remain completely unchanged, and that housing development be directed toward urban transport hubs. If we're going to take an NIMBY attitude here, it's only fair that people elsewhere do as well, and that's exactly what created the current housing shortage.

Truth is, to add hundreds of thousands of new housing units to the metro area and actually move the needle on prices, we need all of the above. Fortunately, the MBTA Communities Act has broken this logjam, and is forcing Concord, Lincoln, Somerville, and everywhere else near transit hubs to rezone for denser housing.

I'd also like to point out that Davis and suburbs like Concord are not interchangeable, which is part of why we need more housing in both places. There are plenty of people who would love to live in the suburbs and have a big yard for their five dogs and six children to run around in. (In some case those houses are currently occupied by people who would rather be in an apartment building close to transit.) There are also people who have jobs in Davis they would like to walk to, and cannot get housing here. Personally, I would find living in Concord or Lincoln a real hardship because the jobs I get tend to be in downtown Boston, Allston, Cambridge, or Somerville. I bike to those places from Davis, but could not feasibly do so on a daily basis from the suburbs. Looking at how often I get to the gym when I'm not biking, I'm afraid that means I'd get less exercise and be at more risk of chronic disease. I'd have to endure either the major expense of buying a car and adding to road congestion, or rearranging my life around the train schedule in a way I don't have to do for the Red Line. I'd have a much longer commute unless I manage to get a job downtown or near a commuter rail stop on the same line. I'd no longer be within walking distance of the Somerville Theatre and the restaurants from Teele to Harvard, so that would also be a major bummer.

-B.

[Christopher Beland]

On Wed, 2025-01-08 at 16:30 -0500, Lois Russell wrote:

 I understand that many commenting here think the height is an acceptable price to pay for the number of housing units, a legitimate judgement to make.  But that is the tradeoff.

That kind of assumes height by itself is a net negative. A residential tower here will produce spectacular and highly-sought-after city views for hundreds of residents. It seems like that could make height a net positive, given that the visual impact on nearly everyone else in the neighborhood is pretty small, and can be positive, negative, or neutral depending on the person. That could make height and number of units a win-win rather than a tradeoff.

-B.

[Christopher Beland]

On Wed, 2025-01-08 at 09:06 -0500, Lois Russell wrote:

Although developers sold the city of Boston their plans in Seaport promising an expansion of housing and a vibrant new community, it is an unattractive, unwelcoming area out of sync with the rest of the city. It is a cautionary tale. The only people I know who like living there are people who like having a parking garage under their building so they can drive in and out of the neighborhood easily.  People like Davis because it is an old-fashioned "town center"  where you don't need a car, can do your errands on foot, meet a friend for coffee, etc. 

Oddly, the biggest reason I don't want to live in the Seaport is that it would be too hard to drive out of at rush hour. (My husband needs to drive to work on Route 128.) What errands would you like to run that you can't do on foot in the Seaport? There are plenty of places to have coffee and get food, especially with all the options next door in downtown. I used to work there, and I still shop there occasionally; it seems like a pretty desirable and convenient place to live with lots of cool architecture, ocean views, the Boston Tea Party ship, the giant milk bottle, parks along the water... It's not the same artsy hipster vibe as Davis Square, but thousands of people are paying a lot of money to live there, so it seems to be pretty successful.

Davis Square no doubt acquired its artsy vibe when it was a cheap and even somewhat dangerous place to live compared to nicer neighborhoods in Cambridge. If anything is going to change that, it's probably the high rents caused by the housing shortage.

-B.

[Jeff Byrnes]

Carol,

The Council weighed the various voices on that particular project and made their decision. There’s nothing inappropriate about that, though I think you meant that you disagree with their decision. But your disagreement doesn’t mean it was inappropriate.

The parcel in question is a very large one, and the owner was clear that they would either:

• Build a larger building that includes 20% affordable housing, if it was rezoned
• Pursue a set of lot splits & build multiple 3 deckers, which do not require any affordable housing

Personally, I’d prefer a larger building, entitled by a rezoning, that creates more homes overall, and includes subsidized affordable homes.

In addition, the ward councilor, Judy Pineda Neufeld, pursued additional community benefits from the owner/developer, which is the $100k you refer to. That’s not a bribe, that’s a concession that the councilor won.

The council’s decision was to change the zoning, so it’s already being changed; that’s the “inappropriate” decision you refer to that the Planning Board declined to recommend, but their recommendations aren’t binding.

It’s an election year, so if you disagree with the Council’s handling of this or other things, you can use your vote to “speak up”.

-- 
Jeff Byrnes
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[Jeff Byrnes]

One interesting thing about the comments about the Seaport: it’s clearly very popular!

My wife & I (who are middle-aged parents) go every now & again, b/c the Alamo Drafthouse is a fun movie theatre, and it’s always bustling in Seaport. Folks are clearly visiting from all over the area for shopping, dining, and fun.

If you haven’t, there’s an indoor putt-putt golf (Puttshack) that’s super fun, a darts bar (Flight Club), three storeys of Legal Seafood going from casual to fine dining, lots of pop-up markets, and last time we were there, there was a bunch of BPS kids putting on a series of music performances at an outdoor stage.

Pretty great stuff!

It’s almost all brand-new, so I get that it’s a little “soulless” in some ways, but people are clearly injecting more & more soul every day. If you’ve not been down there in a while, I encourage hopping on the Red Line & walking down Seaport Blvd to check it out.

-- 
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[Jeff Byrnes]

Mary Ellen,

Appreciate you diving more deeply on how Affordable Housing (note capitals) works. As you say: it’s complicated!

To answer your question:

I don't know who pays the difference between the market and affordable rents - the developer? the City? the State? a mix? (If you know please chime in.) If it's the developer and we say we want to maximize Tier 1 50%, what does this mean for the market rent levels?

Primarily, the market-rate residents pay for the difference, aided by various tax credits, tax breaks, and other kinds of public funding. But because those Affordable homes must be subsidized in perpetuity, the 80% of the building that is market-rate provides the bulk of the difference.

This is why it’s a cost on the building, and as you might have figured out, it pushes the rents or purchase price of the market-rate homes up to support the subsidized ones. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s an important detail.

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Jeff Byrnes
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[Christopher Beland]

On Wed, 2025-01-08 at 08:03 -0800, michal wrote:

I'm skeptical of Copper Mill's contention that it can only execute the project if it's 500 units.  The City or the DSNC should demand to see detailed figures that justify that calculation.

I'm a little nervous about the motivation for "demanding" these figures.

It does seem useful to know the breakpoints for the smallest and largest possible developments of various types, in order to make well-informed choices about zoning.

But if the point is to negotiate the size of the development down to the point where the owner makes zero profit, that seems unhealthy. If we want housing production to catch up with demand and reduce the shortage, we need developers and investors to find residential projects in Somerville profitable and relatively easy to build compared with other real estate projects and non-real-estate investments. We already impose price controls on 20% of units, which reduces profitability considerably; and land acquisition, labor, and material costs here are also pretty high.

There are lots of reasons not to take 500 as a given, whether or not Copper Mill has financial estimates to back them up. To start off, the Scape project was proposing 250 units, though costs have gone up since then. It's entirely possible that a different developer would be happy to do a smaller structure, because they are willing to earn a smaller profit, are less bitter about being screwed over by Somerville zoning changes in the past, have lower opportunity costs, would be using cheaper construction methods or cheaper labor or have cheaper suppliers, are willing to wait longer to earn their money back, or one or the other developer has simply miscalculated or calculated less precisely.

This whole process is, I think, going backwards. We need to recalculate, post-pandemic, how much new housing we are going to need in Davis Square for the next 20-50 years, and rezone several blocks - not just one - to make room for it. There's clearly enough demand to justify residential towers, and there was enough community support in Union Square and Central for them that I think they would be accepted here, too. That means we should have some parcels zoned for towers - whether 10-story cubes or 4-story pedestals with thinner 20-25 towers or whatever combinations have community support.

If the resulting zoning means that Copper Mill can only recoup its investment by building 500 studios, then they should do it. If it means a 600-unit building can be constructed, then that could be an even better outcome for the housing crisis than trying to negotiating down a developer's minimum. If it means only 400 units will fit on this site, then either the owner will find a way to make that profitable, will sell to someone more willing to try, the site will continue to fester until market conditions change, or the city can buy it and subsidize redevelopment (and possibly build an even higher percentage of affordable units). Investors are generally willing to take a lower profit on enterprises that are less risky. I expect some developer would be a lot more motivated to make the financials work even for a 400-unit building if it could be constructed by right and they didn't have to hold meetings where cranky members of the public get to insult their ideas and question their honesty and bemoan the horrific things that are going to happen to people's eyes and souls as a result of their project, and there wasn't the huge risk that the City Council won't approve a zoning change. In contrast to granting a "Davis Square tower monopoly" to one developer, if there is money to be made, owners would be much more motivated if they were worried about missing an opportunity because the landowner across the street has decided to put up a tower which will saturate the rental supply for a while.

-B.

[Christopher Beland]

On Wed, 2025-01-08 at 19:36 +0000, 'Carol' via Davis Square Neighborhood Council wrote:

They were happy with just the profit from the lab building. I suspect that when Copper hill noted that we would be interested in housing, they went whole hog. Maybe they know that size building would not get approved, hoping for at least half. Too much of a stretch for me to accept.

The amounts of money that can be made from a lab vs. residential building of a given size are vastly different. Searching around online, it looks like lab space in Cambridge was $88/sq ft in 2019 and at some point post-pandemic went over $100/sq ft. The apartments in my triple-decker rent for under $3/sq ft. That of course fluctuates over time, and is constrained at the low end by the cost of construction.

-B.

[mem...@gmail.com]

I asked the question because I got the impression that sometimes cities and/or states actually pitch in cash for those subsidies, like Section 8.

[Jeff Byrnes]

Section 8 is federal, though as you suggest, I think state & local gov’t can help.

But section 8 is given to the tenant, which means that a lower-income person can manage to cover the costs of a home otherwise unaffordable. It’s “out of band” of the direct subsidies we’re talking about, but still vitally important!

There’s a lot of folks who qualify for an IZ home, but can’t quite swing the rent, who use Section 8 to make up the gap.

In this way, Inclusionary Zoning and Section 8 are a really good pair. The Somerville Office of Housing Stability works with tenants a lot to figure this out.

-- 
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[mem...@gmail.com]

Interesting podcast...

The Truth About NIMBYs

The political psychology of opposition to new housing

https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2025/01/why-people-are-nimbys/681225/

On today’s episode of Good on Paper, I talk with the political scientist David Broockman about the limits of using self-interest as a lens for understanding people’s opposition to new development. His research, with the scholars Chris Elmendorf and Josh Kalla, points to symbolic-politics theory, a framework that de-emphasizes personal impacts and financial self-interest and instead looks at how people feel about symbols such as cities, developers, and affordable housing.

“I don’t think that’s necessarily wrong, that financial self-interest matters some or personal impacts might matter some,” Broockman explains. “But we also know if we just think about any other political issues—so think about taxes, think about abortion—yes, self-interest, personal impacts are some of that. But there’s plenty of anti-abortion women. There’s plenty of rich people that vote to raise their taxes. Ideology, tastes—that’s a lot of the story too about why people have the views that they have."

[Christopher Beland]

On Wed, 2025-01-08 at 20:26 -0500, Jeff Byrnes wrote:

it pushes the rents or purchase price of the market-rate homes up to support the subsidized ones. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s an important detail.

In a free housing market like ours, landlords can't charge arbitrarily high rents; by definition, microeconomic theory says renters will just go elsewhere if rent is above the market-clearing price. And we generally expect landlords to be already maximizing revenue whether or not there are any price-controlled units.

The most effective way to compensate a higher fraction of price-controlled units is to build a bigger building, to amortize the fixed costs of land, parking garage, utility rooms, etc. over more apartments. If the fraction is too high, it's possible to make a building of any size unprofitable, given borrowing costs. If this is held constant by zoning or community opposition, I expect that price controls mostly just lower the profitability of development, increase the payback period on the initial investment, and on the margin reduce the number of buildings constructed.

For freshly renovated and new apartments, it seems they are mostly priced by location, square footage, number of bedrooms and bathrooms, and to some degree on parking, laundry, the need to walk up stairs, and if they allow pets. Location is impossible to change, and the square footage and number of rooms is very difficult if the building envelope is limited by the community or already constructed. 

Exploiting some unoptimized parameters and differences between theory and practice, there are a few techniques (not all of which we want to encourage) which may yield higher revenues to compensate somewhat, holding the size of the building constant, and assuming they weren't already being done:

* Adjusting the mix of apartment sizes to maximize $/sq ft. For example, only building studios might help, but this risks a mismatch with the demand mix.

* Pushing hard to squeeze more rentable space by reducing utility areas, common amenities like bike storage or lobby seating, or maybe squeezing in an additional story with lower ceilings (though this is also constrained by zoning).

* Improving finishes, appliances, building amenities, etc. This increases capital cost and borrowing costs. Beyond a certain point, this type of improvement doesn't increase rent enough to pay for itself. In a new building, everything's going to be fresh and modern anyway, and for a long-term owner I would expect the quality of countertops and appliances and whatnot to already be optimized for long-term profit (given that at some point they will need to be refreshed). Maybe monthly revenue could be increased by accepting higher capital cost and a longer payback period. Return on investment is much higher for a fixer-upper (which is what I own), but still far from immediate.

* Holding units vacant longer at an above-market price. Adding $100/month can be enough to cause interest to drop off a cliff when there are alternatives available, but it's possible that someone with more money than sense or who values the apartment unusually much over the competition will come along and rent it. But at some point the time spent getting no rent outweighs the higher rent, so this can only go so far, and there's the risk of losing money if no one ever rents at the higher price.

* Pricing gimmicks. Offering low rent initially and then raising it when the lease is renewed. Charging higher rent but no security deposit or no first/last month's rent to take advantage of people who are cash-poor. Paying for utilities.

* Convincing people to pay more than they need to with whatever lifestyle brochures and slimy sales techniques you can muster.

* Pushing losses off on to someone else by declaring bankruptcy or selling the building for more than it's worth.

-B.

[Christopher Beland]

On Wed, 2025-01-08 at 21:37 -0500, Mary Ellen wrote:
> I think the meetings have been cordial and increasingly productive as
> we learn more which enables us to delve deeper into the issues and
> they learn more about us. I'd be interested to know if you felt
> otherwise.

They seem productive and useful in generating improved designs, and no
one's been yelling, but it makes *me* cranky just watching how some
people behave. Andrew, representing the development group, described
himself coming out of previous rounds of public meetings with arrows
sticking out of his body, metaphorically. At the last meeting I watched
people in as many words call Andrew a liar to his face, and jump down
the presenters' throats about how their renderings were misleading
(some people assumed intentionally, others said they'd done the same
thing unintentionally by getting lost in the weeds of design).

I've been to dozens if not hundreds of this sort of meeting and could
go through a litany of recurring public comment archetypes and bad
behavior, but I don't want y'all to think you shouldn't have a right to
voice your opinions, especially when asked. Some of your concerns are
very legitimate or just valuing different things, even as many other
comments (including some of mine) are ill-informed or unrealistic.

Outside of the meetings, we saw posters maligning Scape and people
criticizing them in the press and now we see flyers using misleading
visualizations to get people to complain about Copper Mill to the
government. I perhaps too cynically wonder if the city prodded the
developer to hold public meetings so that all this NIMBY vs. YIMBY
vitriol would be directed at the private company? Instead of doing up
front what I think of as its fundamental job of balancing competing
political interests, this does allow it the luxury of gauging public
support before deciding whether to stick its collective neck out on
rezoning (which at least some officials seem to quietly think would be
worthwhile to one degree or another) or to come in as heroes to stop a
development which turns out to be unpopular.

I mostly want the city council to sort out these NIMBY vs. YIMBY
battles in advance to provide developers with certainty on whether or
not they can build at all; far more are scared away by that than the
ugliness of public meetings.

But if you want examples of ugliness, today I read on this mailing list
that my idea of a 400-unit building on this site was "horrible maybe
one of the dumbest ones ive ever heard in this city" and "building it
there would be insane". That's not cordial. This opinion could have
been expressed in a civil manner and explained its reasoning, which I
might have disagreed with but respected. Instead, it simply insults my
intelligence and my sanity. That's what I would call cranky. Maybe a
better word would be sharp-elbowed or aggressive or angry, but whatever
way you choose to identify it, it's a strong, unpleasant, negative
emotion most people want to avoid. And that's intentional; it's a
tactic for asserting dominance and getting other people to back down.
It can be a last resort when the speaker has no other power over the
listener, or it can be a lazy first resort.

The same person went on to write, "I dont think im gonna change your
mind and im 100% definitely not changing mine so thats pretty much it".
A cheritable interpretation of that is "let's agree to disagree". A
less cheritable interpretation is that the denial of any possibility of
being reasoned with is the textbook definition of being unreasonable,
and this person is more interested in attempting to broadcast their
opinion and silence others by throwing a fit than they are in having a
rational discussion to identify and advance common interests.

If I was putting up a building, I'd very much like to tell a person
acting like this to take their complaints to the city council, or to
just not have to deal with them in the first place because the city
council has already decided either for or against their position. As an
attendee of public meetings, I can only hope for more civility, better
opinions, and less rambling.

-B.

[Alex Epstein]

As someone lucky to be a homeowner in the neighborhood with family for the long haul, I'm pretty excited about the proposed development and hope that something like it moves forward. A lot of our close friends have had to decamp to Malden, Maynard, and beyond after facing dwindling housing options here, so I think we desperately need more homes as well as more types of homes--not just Philly-style and triple decker. I think that more neighbors without cars, like our family, (which is possible both because the Red Line and because no new development near transit now gets street permits, and I'd want to make sure any new onsite parking built in Davis is zero to minimal) is a recipe for a more vibrant neighborhood that will sustain the businesses I want to patronize in walking distance by creating more foot traffic. There are so few elevator apartment buildings in Somerville (I used to live in one of the only such buildings on Beacon Street) that it's tough to find stroller and wheelchair accessible options--but that's something that high rises and new construction offer.

I personally appreciate taller buildings as landmarks to orient me while walking or biking. When I'm in Lincoln Park, I know which way Union Square is thanks to the new building there, and when I'm turned around in Cambridgeport, I look for the Mass/Main building to know where Central is. I would welcome Davis joining the club--where else to build more housing and businesses if not by a subway station? At this point, I think it's strange (and unhelpful to those struggling with finding housing) how Davis and Porter Square are the only Red Line stops north of probably Dorchester with surface parking lots and low-slung buildings. That's just my two cents, and I look forward to learning more about this and other proposals for our neighborhood. Thanks to this group for providing a forum to share timely, helpful information.

Best,

Alex

[Robert Collins]



Christopher a 400 unit SHOULDNT be able to be built by some other developer by right. Dont try to sneak that little comment in there. Theres a reason it isnt there in the first place because building it there would be insane. I’ll be honest this whole discussion is getting a little redundant it seems. We keep saying the same things back and forth and no matter what you say it will not change my mind that building something like that is a good idea. It is a horrible maybe one of the dumbest ones ive ever heard in this city. But hey what do I know you might get what you want this city seems to be going in this direction a lot anyways even though I disagree

We shouldnt be allowing developers to build this as a right. If you could just step away for a second from this housing crisis fixation you might realize just how bad of an idea this really is

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 8, 2025, at 10:23 PM, Christopher Beland <bel...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:



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[Robert Collins]

And Christoper we criticize their ideas and bemoan them because a lot of times they deserve it. I didnt just wake up one morning and start hating on them for no reason. The things ive seen them do in this area are what made me questionable about them. So please dont just wipe us off as cranky. 

But honestly I dont think im gonna change your mind and im 100% definitely not changing mine so thats pretty much it

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2025, at 12:07 AM, Robert Collins <rober...@gmail.com> wrote:



[mem...@gmail.com]

B,

I was struck by 

" they didn't have to hold meetings where cranky members of the public get to insult their ideas and question their honesty and bemoan the horrific things that are going to happen to people's eyes and souls as a result of their project, and there wasn't the huge risk that the City Council won't approve a zoning change."

I think the meetings have been cordial and increasingly productive as we learn more which enables us to delve deeper into the issues and they learn more about us. I'd be interested to know if you felt otherwise.

Mary Ellen

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[Julia Johnson]

Just to clarify my point on the seaport.

I would like to see mixed use buildings that support small businesses / startups in both the seaport / davis. 

I personally find Davis easier to commute to than the seaport, and would love to see more jobs within my field pop up.

I would like more housing/companies in both the seaport/davis.

I also second Jeffs comment on the fun stuff there!

Julia

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[Lois Russell]

It might be helpful to separate decisions about the appearance and design of the street/retail section and the tower separately.  There is no consistent style in Davis now so it is hard to say what would preserve the character. The architectural drawings focus on the streetscape and suggest several arrangements, all of which people will like more or less to taste.  The height of the tower is its own factor.  I don't think we have a good sense of how the tower will look.  In the renderings I have seen it looks like a ghost arising from the base. There is a basic disagreement  whether the height of the tower will change  the "character" of the square. There are folks who think it will not have an effect, but I don't see how it can't.  It will be visible from many neighborhoods beyond Davis Square.  It would be helpful to have renderings of the tower...all of it... from a number of perspectives so people can get a better sense of its impact.  Maybe they would convince people it wouldn't be so bad, or maybe they would convince people it is too tall.   I understand that many commenting here think the height is an acceptable price to pay for the number of housing units, a legitimate judgement to make.  But that is the tradeoff.

On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 3:46 PM Rebecca Chase <rebecc...@comcast.net> wrote:

This is a great conversation. Thank you all for the carefully considered point you are raising.

I'm glad to see consideration of the architectural style added to the discussion.

Currently it's true that most of Davis Square's architecture is "nothing special" so maybe it's time to stop worrying about this tower fitting in with the existing character.

If built, the proposed Copper Mill Project (whether 10 stories or 25) would become a defining feature of Davis Square, and I'd love to see something interesting. I personally care less about whether or not I "like" it in the sense of being comfortable with it. I care more about whether or not it is visually engaging, with a unique character.

Do other's of you have thought about this? 

Rebecca

Rebecca Chase

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[Rebecca Chase]

This is a great conversation. Thank you all for the carefully considered point you are raising.

I'm glad to see consideration of the architectural style added to the discussion.

Currently it's true that most of Davis Square's architecture is "nothing special" so maybe it's time to stop worrying about this tower fitting in with the existing character.

If built, the proposed Copper Mill Project (whether 10 stories or 25) would become a defining feature of Davis Square, and I'd love to see something interesting. I personally care less about whether or not I "like" it in the sense of being comfortable with it. I care more about whether or not it is visually engaging, with a unique character.

Do other's of you have thought about this? 

Rebecca

Rebecca Chase

Rebecc...@comcast.net

On 01/08/2025 3:21 PM EST Christopher Beland <bel...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

 

 

--

[Aaron Weber]

How is solving a crisis bad? How is concern about the #1 priority of nearly every voter in the Commonwealth a "fixation?"

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[michal]

Hi, Lois.  I completely agree with you. The atmosphere of the group is very unpleasant. And judging by the responses you received, group members (including me) have been unwilling to consider your opinion and look in the mirror.  But the time has come for me to do that.

In my view, the Google Groups channel, and all other online non-face-to-face forums, tend to bring out the worst in people (also including me). For that reason, while I may attend future in-person meetings, I've taken a vow to stay away from all online forums, e.g., the comments section of the NY Times.  They bring out my worst qualities -- intellectual arrogance, pointless argumentativeness, exclusivity -- and seem to do so for other members of this group, which is a shame, given its benign purpose.

Now if I can just figure out how to delete myself from Google Groups...

Best wishes to all! Michal

On Tuesday, January 7, 2025 at 5:58:50 PM UTC-5 lorussell2 wrote:

I have been reading these emails and would note that the replies to people expressing doubt or disapproval of the proposed building are often dismissive or even hostile.  I would hope that we would all feel  comfortable writing here.  There are a lot of people who oppose the size of this building and everyone needs to be able to express an opinion.  (I am even hesitant to write this...)

Lois Russell 

On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 4:29 PM marynorcross via Davis Square Neighborhood Council <daviss...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I haven't seen Market Central but have been to Union Sqaure.  The high-rise buildings there are not in the heart of Union Square.  The building in this proposal is in the middle of Davis.

 

~Mary Juneau-Norcross

On 01/07/2025 1:33 PM EST Jeff Byrnes <je...@somervilleyimby.org> wrote:

 

 

I recommend a visit to both Union, to see the “bacon” building, and Central Square in Cambridge, to see Market Central, to get a sense of the scale of a modern high-rise with much shorter buildings around it.

For me, I find both to fit in just fine, and you barely notice them unless you’re looking from a distance.

-- 
Jeff Byrnes
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On Jan 7, 2025 at 1:30 PM -0500, Callie Wiser <callie...@gmail.com>, wrote:

I do not know, but it effectively draws attention to the fact that the only renderings we have seen from developers show only the first few stories. I am hopeful that this will result in Cooper Mill bringing a to-scale rendering of the building in-situ to the January meeting.

 

I haven’t journeyed to Union Square to see the building referenced in the last meeting with multiple stories set back from the street, and I am very curious what this might look like in reality.

 

Callie

 

 

From: daviss...@googlegroups.com <daviss...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of mem...@gmail.com <mem...@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 7, 2025 at 1:16 PM
To: Jeff Byrnes <je...@somervilleyimby.org>
Cc: Aaron Weber <aaron....@gmail.com>, Davis Square Neighborhood Council <daviss...@googlegroups.com>, Elaine Almquist <elaine....@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DSNC] Copper Mill Project Mailbox Flyer

I also received the flyer. does anyone know who's behind it?

 

On Tue, Jan 7, 2025, 12:55 PM Jeff Byrnes <je...@somervilleyimby.org> wrote:

Thanks for making that statement, Elaine. I think that will help clear things up for quite a few folks!

 

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On Jan 7, 2025 at 10:59 AM -0500, Elaine Almquist <elaine....@gmail.com>, wrote:

We created an official response to the flyers given how much discussion it spurred in just one day! Feel free to share this email or our linked Google Doc statement with anyone you wish.

DSNC statement on development flyers in Davis Square:

Hi, we're the Davis Square Neighborhood Council (DSNC). We're currently a group of about 150 community members who live, work, or frequent businesses in Davis Square.

We've seen that there is a flyer circulating around the neighborhood and in conversations online opposing a proposed development project on Elm St. that mentions our group, so we wanted to share some information about us:

First, the Davis Square Neighborhood Council did not create this flyer, and we haven’t taken any formal collective position for or against this development proposal.

For those who want to learn more or discuss the development more extensively, the developer in charge of the project, named Copper Mill, will be hosting another community meeting in January. They haven’t set a date yet, but we’ll continue to publicize those meetings through our channels as soon as they do. They’ve hosted four public community meetings about this project so far, and many of the DSNC members have been attending and participating in the conversation, expressing concerns, and asking questions. We’ve taken extensive notes, and they’re available for the public to read in this Google Drive folder. That folder also includes a project overview written by one of our members, some photos, and the official slide deck from Copper Mill.

The DSNC is actively recruiting new members, and regardless of whether you approve or oppose this particular project, we strongly encourage anyone who lives or works in Davis Square to join the Neighborhood Council.

Our meetings are open and we meet on the last Monday of each month. The next DSNC meeting is Monday, January 27^th from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM at the West Branch Library community room. We will spend most of the agenda time for this meeting working on finalizing our bylaws. You can join our mailing list for meeting notifications at https://groups.google.com/g/DavisSquareNC.

We aren't officially accepted as a Neighborhood Council yet, but we've been meeting (and growing) monthly for a year, and we’re hoping to finalize our bylaws and send them to the City Council for approval as soon as possible. After the City Council approves a neighborhood council, it becomes the official body that will negotiate community benefits agreements with developers.

The rendering on the flyer isn't one of the ones provided by Copper Mill. For accuracy, here are the most recent renderings of the two options shared at their last community meeting: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FqzVrnaRteDzJOMl5bIYhFL45qR2oJY6/view?usp=sharing

Option 1:

<Elm st 1 1.jpg>

<Elm st 1 2.jpg>

Option 2:

<Elm st 2 1.jpg>

<Elm st 2 2.jpg>

 

We hope to see you at our next meeting!

Elaine Almquist, temporary President, DSNC

Joel Sutherland, temporary Secretary, DSNC

On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 12:14 PM Aaron Weber <aaron....@gmail.com> wrote:

Has anyone figured out who distributed this flyer?

 

On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 8:00 PM Eric Hoke <eric...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

 

I received the attached flyer concerning the Copper Mill project in my mailbox today and figured I'd share it with the group because the Davis Square Neighborhood Council is mentioned.

 

Cheers,

Eric

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[Elaine Almquist]

Hi neighbors,

I'm just pitching in here to say that I'm excited by the lively discussion on this project here on our thread and also across the many social platforms. I spoke to Caitlyn from Copper Mill yesterday, and they're trying to finalize their next public meeting the week of Jan 27th (not the same night as our January 27th meeting). And we'll pass along the details as soon as they confirm them.

Most of you are making excellent points all around, and I will continue to encourage respectful, kind conversation through our differences as we think about and discuss proposed changes to our beloved neighborhood.

Cheers,

Elaine

Elaine F. Almquist

(she/her/hers)

BlueSky @EAlmquist  Instagram: @EFAlmquist
Phone: 978.375.2448

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[Jeff Byrnes]

Agreed, Elaine!

While I understand Michal’s points, I’m also very bullish on how spaces like this increase our ability to engage & deliberate various challenges, and include folks who are otherwise excluded.

It’s on each of us to not bring our worst selves to online interactions, and remember that there is at least one real person on the other end.

I think there’s been a fair amount of disagreement, and it’s mostly been respectful. That’s a good thing! We need to disagree usefully, y’know?

-- 
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[Robert Collins]

Agreed Jeff

Continuing this conversation I came across this instagram page that I really enjoy. It is an architecture page and what I really like about it is all of the buildings on the page are new buildings. 

I’ll link the webpage below if anyone wants to check it out. I think a lot of these buildings would absolutely be a nice addition to the spot at Davis where they want to put it.

If you look on the page obviously some of them are too big for the actual location but I really believe these are beautiful looking and would really brighten Davis square 

Hope you check it out!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 11, 2025, at 9:28 PM, Jeff Byrnes <je...@somervilleyimby.org> wrote:



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[alex.d...@gmail.com]

> Now if I can just figure out how to delete myself from Google Groups...

According to the bottom of each email to the group:

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to davissquaren...@googlegroups.com.

Best wishes,

Alex

On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 10:16 AM michal <arb...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Jeff Byrnes]

Glad to hear that, Robert.

Looking at the Instagram link you shared, some things stand out to me:

• Our zoning rules make it harder to build things like this!
• We require setbacks (space between the sidewalk & the building frontage) & stepbacks (upper storeys need to be “stepped back” even further from where the frontage is)
• Ornamentation!
• Many of these are Beaux Arts, Neo-Gothic, 2nd Empire, and similar ornamented stone styles from the 1800s & 1900s
• Ornamentation today is done via “articulation” (the shape of the building) and less so via carvings hung on the façade
• If we want ornamentation like these styles, the building shape needs to be simpler: a big box!

There’s some things hiding under the skin of these buildings, too, most of which are outside the USA. Two big ones:

• Number of stairways required
• How elevators are built & regulations around them

This starts to get very inside baseball, but the quick version is:

• We require 2+ stairways even when it doesn’t contribute to fire safety
• lots of Euro & Asian buildings only have 1 stairwell & they’re just as safe thanks to other fire safety requirements
• Elevators are wildly more expensive in US buildings, b/c of well-intentioned but unnecessary regulations & lack of standardization w/ the rest of the world

So we have some challenges to having buildings like the ones you share, unfortunately! It might be interesting for you to chat with the architects involved & hear what constraints they’re working with, and how that is steering them to make certain decisions.

For me, I’d love a building that has no setback, rising straight up from the street 12–15 storeys, with balconies, ornamentation, and so on. It’d be simpler to build, offer more to its residents, and would “stick out” less. That’s still very possible, Copper Mill is clearly still iterating on its designs heavily, taking in our feedback as part of that.

-- 
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[Elaine Almquist]

I've removed this person and banned them from posting. Sorry for the spam, everyone.

Best,

Elaine

Elaine F. Almquist

(she/her/hers)

BlueSky @EAlmquist  Instagram: @EFAlmquist
Phone: 978.375.2448

On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 5:41 AM Eigen Stone <eigen...@gmail.com> wrote:

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To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/davissquarenc/d4d1f82f-9a0e-420c-be0d-a0303d16bc51n%40googlegroups.com.

[Jeff Byrnes]

Thanks Elaine, it happens.

-- 
Jeff Byrnes
my.pronoun.is/he/him

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