Shir shel yom of Chanukah

[Nehemiah Klein]

For those of us who live in Eretz Yisrael, the prevalent minhag among Nusach Ashkenaz shuls is to do only one shir shel yom (e.g. if Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos to do only Rosh Chodesh and not Shabbos), similarly there are special shir shel yoms for Yom Tov and each day of Chol Hamoed.  This is based on the Gr"a who I believe bases it on what was actually done in the Beis Hamikdash, the shir of Yom Tov replaced the shir of the weekday as per the Gemara in Beitzah and Rosh Hashana, etc.

My question is regarding Chanukah - the minhag here is to say Mizmor Shir Chanukas and not the ordinary shir shel yom - does this imply that after the nes Chanukah which was during bayis sheni, they changed the shir shel yom and instituted a special one for Chanukah - that would be a bit of a chiddush.  On the other hand I looked in Maasei Rav the Gr"a does say that the shir shel yom for Chanukah is Mizmor Shir Chanukas.  

Could the Gr"a possibly have meant that it is an additional mizmor in honor of Chanukah and is said in addition to the ordinary shir shel yom like we did in chutz la'aretz - Rav Tukochinsky of the luach certainly did not feel that way.

Any ideas?

Happy Chanukah

[Zev Sero]

On 12/17/2014 01:30 AM, Nehemiah Klein wrote:
>
> My question is regarding Chanukah - the minhag here is to say Mizmor
> Shir Chanukas and not the ordinary shir shel yom - does this imply
> that after the nes Chanukah which was during bayis sheni, they
> changed the shir shel yom and instituted a special one for Chanukah -
> that would be a bit of a chiddush.

Why not? It's not as if the choice of shirim is de'oraisa. The
same rabbonon who told the Leviyim what to sing on an ordinary day
can very easily have told them to sing something different on
Chanukah.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

why do you say shir shel yom is d'rabannan. The levi'im certainly
seemed to take it very seriously in Mishna RH 4:4. (I realized that
this mishna doesn't prove anything, but if the rabbonon could just
change things about the shir, then there were less drastic solutions
to the problem.) Obviously the tehillim chosen were not de'oriasa, but
they could have been mi'divrei sofrim.

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[Nehemiah Klein]

The Gemara clearly says that the history of the second day of Yom Tov for Rosh Hashana was because the witnesses for the sighting of the moon arrived late and the Leviim said the wrong shir - we see that there is great significance to the shir.  As I mentioned it before, I find it hard to believe that they instituted a special shir for Chanukah.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

That's just the mishna I cited. 

Jeremy

[Zev Sero]

On 12/17/2014 08:20 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:
> why do you say shir shel yom is d'rabannan.

Because these songs were not yet written when the Torah was given!
Therefore the choice of song must be *at most* derabanan, and probably
doesn't even rise to that level, but is simply the minhag of the Leviyim.

>The levi'im certainly
> seemed to take it very seriously in Mishna RH 4:4.

Of course they took it seriously. It's at least a minhag, and perhaps
a takanas chachamim.

> (I realized that
> this mishna doesn't prove anything, but if the rabbonon could just
> change things about the shir, then there were less drastic solutions
> to the problem.)

How so? The problem was that they didn't know which song to sing.
The solution was to provide them with certainty.

> Obviously the tehillim chosen were not de'oriasa, but
> they could have been mi'divrei sofrim.

What's the difference between sofrim and rabanan? Aren't they
the same people?

[Zev Sero]

On 12/17/2014 09:29 AM, Nehemiah Klein wrote:
> The Gemara clearly says that the history of the second day of Yom Tov
> for Rosh Hashana was because the witnesses for the sighting of the
> moon arrived late and the Leviim said the wrong shir - we see that
> there is great significance to the shir. As I mentioned it before, I
> find it hard to believe that they instituted a special shir for
> Chanukah.

Why do you find it hard to believe? If there was a special song for
Rosh Chodesh, why *not* for Chanukah?

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I was using midi refi so from more or less as the Rambam does, e.g.,
vis a vis Megillah, not a synonym for derabbanan, but from the
nevi'im. My other point was that if the shied was derabbanan, they
could make a fix by saying "on the 30th of Elul we always say the shir
for the day if the week" or "of RH". That would seem a less drastic
fix that changing the rules of kiddush hachodesh.

[Zev Sero]

On 12/17/2014 10:38 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:
> I was using midi refi so from more or less as the Rambam does, e.g.,
> vis a vis Megillah, not a synonym for derabbanan, but from the
> nevi'im. My other point was that if the shied was derabbanan, they
> could make a fix by saying "on the 30th of Elul we always say the shir
> for the day if the week" or "of RH". That would seem a less drastic
> fix that changing the rules of kiddush hachodesh.

Turn off that autocorrect!

The nevi'im *were* Rabbanan. Purim and Chanukah are *equally*
of the 7 mitzvot derabanan; Purim doesn't get any special status
just because the rabannan at the time included some nevi'im.

The incident wasn't on Rosh Hashana, it was on an ordinary Rosh
Chodesh. Throughout the second Bayis it never happened that Elul
had 30 days. And they didn't change the rules of kiddush hachodesh;
they just changed the office hours for the bet din. That's not
drastic at all. Dayanim can take an afternoon off any time they
like.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Then perhaps דברי קבלה would be better. 

[Zev Sero]

On 12/17/2014 10:58 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:
> Then perhaps דברי קבלה would be better.

No, divrei kabalah are the actual sifrei nevi'im. (Which is
also derabanan; there is no special status in halacha for a
law that happens to be mentioned in the nevi'im.)

The choice of songs was *at most* a law derabanan, and probably
not even that, but only a minhag that the Leviyim developed for
themselves over the years.

[Meir]

     Several comments on what has been posted thus far:

       1. The GR"A most certainly did not intend Mizmor Shir to be send in addition to the Shir shel Yom.  In his Ma'asei Rav, he writes explicitly that only one shir was said in the Beit haMikdash, and we should say only one in our tefilla.  (Parenthetically, he did not say it daily at the beginning of Shacharit.  Its appearance there is an innovation of the Arizal.)

      2. Rashi in Sukka 55a states that the choice of Psalm 94 on Chol Hamoeid Sukkot was because it makes reference to our subjugation by foreign powers, to indicate that despite those tzarot we still rejoice on the chag.  Manifestly, then, this must have been a change from what was said in Bayit Rishon, when that reason did not exist.  Hence, the rule of what to say when could be changed as circumstances dictated.

     3. I take issue with Zev's opinion that the choices were what the Levi'im chose to sing.  I feel, though I can't prove it, that those who controlled the Avoda  (the Beit Din shel Kohanim or the Beit Din Hagadol) were the ones who made the selection.

Meir

 

 

[Meir]

---

 
      In discussing the GR"A's opinion, I carelessly wrote, "In his Ma'asei Rav, he writes . . ."  The GR"A did not write "Ma'asei Rav."  It is a compilation of his pesakim.  The quote, however, was accurate.

Meir

[Zev Sero]

On 12/18/2014 08:52 AM, Meir wrote:
> 1. The GR"A most certainly did *not* intend Mizmor Shir to be send in

> addition to the Shir shel Yom. In his Ma'asei Rav, he writes
> explicitly

The GRA did not write Maaseh Rav!

[Nehemiah Klein]

I have a possible proof that it may not be related to the Beis Hamikdash - if you look at the list of mizmorim, included in there is Yom Tov Sheni shel galuyos - that certainly did not exist in the beis hamikdash - bayis rishon or bayis sheni.

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