Hoshanos

[Nehemiah Klein]

A gut voch to all - I have an observation regarding Hoshanos and a theory:

If you notice,the siddurim and machzorim say for example: lemaan amitach, lemaan brisach ... lemaan shchinasach hoshana  lemaan tehilasach hoshana.  And so for all of them, the shin and tav have the word hoshana afterwards.  My theory is that we really should be saying: "hoshana lemaan amitach, hoshana lemaan brisach ... hoshana lemaan shchinasach hoshana, hoshana lemaan tehilasach hoshana.  Meaning the word hoshana afterwards belongs only to shin and tav, not as is commonly done that many say  hoshana before and after each one.

For the same reason we find hoshana after lemaanch Elokeinu ... lemaancha dorsheinu, for then hoshana should be said before and after.

I figured if it only said Hoshana after the last one, then it would perhaps be going on all of them, but the fact that it is on shin and tav - ein ribui achar ribui ela lemaet

Any opinions?

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

The minhag in our minyon (and several other minyonim in our complex) is that the chazzan begins aloud somewhere in the middle (mem or noon), and that is when the procession begins, led by the chazzan; the phrases recited aloud while marching are said with hoshaana before and after; the earlier ones are said silently before the procession starts, and hashaana is said only before each. That is what I remember also from childhood. I see that it is also official Habad custom.

GEK

Question: In the third hoshaana, the sheen phrase is "shoagim"; We say "hoshaana - shoagim hoshaana - hoshaana"; how do you say it?

[Zev Sero]

On 09/26/2015 09:22 PM, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
>
> Question: In the third hoshaana, the sheen phrase is "shoagim"; We
> say "hoshaana - shoagim hoshaana - hoshaana"; how do you say it?

The phrase is not "shoagim", it's "shoagim hosha`na"; and like all
the other phrases that the chazan says, it's preceded and followed
by "hosha`na". "Please help those who cry out for help, please help".

--
Zev Sero Gemar Tov
z...@sero.name

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Saturday, September 26, 2015 at 9:26:53 PM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:
> The phrase is  not "shoagim", it's "shoagim hosha`na"; and like all
> the other phrases that the chazan says, it's preceded and followed
> by "hosha`na".   "Please help those who cry out for help, please help".

So you are agreeing with me?

Gershon Eliyahu

[Nehemiah Klein]

If so, why do the siddurim/machzorim only print the words Hoshana after the shin and tav of each paragraph, there must be a reason for this almost universal printing (I am not referring to more recent publications which are "new and improved").

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[Zev Sero]

I am agreeing with what the people in your shul do. I am disagreeing
with your assertion that the phrase in the siddur is simply "shoagim".


--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".

[Zev Sero]

On 09/27/2015 12:18 AM, Nehemiah Klein wrote:
> If so, why do the siddurim/machzorim only print the words Hoshana
> after the shin and tav of each paragraph,

To which siddurim/machzorim do you refer? I don't have a lot of
different siddurim at home, but I only found this in one of them,
and even that one was inconsistent, only having this in some of
the paragraphs.

But no matter what the print, you have to agree that the phrase in
question (the shin phrase of 'Om Ani Choma') is 'shoagim hosha`na',
not simply 'shoagim'. 'Shoagim' on its own makes no sense in this
context.

[Nehemiah Klein]

Given that shoagim starts with a shin, Hoshana is printed aftewards. I am referring to standard siddurim such as tefillas kol peh, tikkun meir (do they still use it in USA), the many small siddurim, machzor rabbah and other machzorim.  Until recent times almost all of them printed "hoshana" only for the last two of each paragraph. 

[Zev Sero]

On 09/27/2015 12:35 AM, Nehemiah Klein wrote:
> Given that shoagim starts with a shin, Hoshana is printed aftewards.

And that "hosha`na" is clearly part of the phrase, not a suffix. Surely
you don't dispute that. "Shoagim" on its own just makes no sense in the
context.

> I am referring to standard siddurim such as tefillas kol peh, tikkun
> meir (do they still use it in USA), the many small siddurim, machzor
> rabbah and other machzorim. Until recent times almost all of them
> printed "hoshana" only for the last two of each paragraph.

If you say so. Of the ones I've seen only one does this, and only for
some of the paragraphs. But unless all the ones you refer to have
"shoagim hosha`na hosha`na", then you are incorrect about all of them,
because at least in this instance they don't add a "hosha`na" after the
shin phrase.

[Nehemiah Klein]

Not shoagim hoshana hoshana, just shoagim hoshana.  I am sitting here with my trusty "kelilas yofi" siddur - see page 442.  Lemaan amitach ... lemaan shchinasach hoshana, lemaan tehilasach hoshana.  Then even shesiyah ... shchinas kevodecha hoshana, tel talpiyos hoshana.  Number 3 - om ani choma ... sohagim hoshana, temuchim alecha hoshana.  Adon hamoshia ... shocharecha hoshia hoshana, temimecha toshia hoshana.

Note - they all have the words hoshana only after the last two - my theory - the original minhag was "hoshana lemaan amitach, hoshana lemaam brisach ... hoshana lemaan shchinasach hoshana, hoshana lemaan tehilasach hoshana.  Not hoshana before and after each one, rather "lemaancha Elokenu ... lemaanha dorshenu before and after, lemaan amitach ... only before, the last two before and after.

[Nehemiah Klein]

Sorry, that was siddur Mekor Haberacha, not kelilas yofi (the cover came off)

[Zev Sero]

On 09/27/2015 12:57 AM, Nehemiah Klein wrote:
> Not shoagim hoshana hoshana, just shoagim hoshana. I am sitting here with my trusty "kelilas yofi" siddur - see page 442. Lemaan amitach ... lemaan shchinasach hoshana, lemaan tehilasach hoshana. Then even shesiyah ... shchinas kevodecha hoshana, tel talpiyos hoshana. Number 3 - om ani choma ... sohagim hoshana, temuchim alecha hoshana. Adon hamoshia ... shocharecha hoshia hoshana, temimecha toshia hoshana.
>
> Note - they all have the words hoshana only after the last two -

Except for Om Ani Choma. You keep evading my question. Surely you
*must admit* that the shin phrase in Om Ani Choma is "shoagim hosha`na".
So if your siddur does not have "hosha`na" after that phrase, then the
pattern you claim to have detected is violated in this case.

[Nehemiah Klein]

I agree with you al pi svara, but firstly one exception to the rule does not invalidate the entire rule of the approximately 12 other hoshanos paragraphs, it is possible that the madpisim and others did not understand it the way you did (albeit perhaps mistakenly) and assumed that shoagim was all that there was there.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 12:27:28 AM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:
> I am agreeing with what the people in your shul do.  I am disagreeing
> with your assertion that the phrase in the siddur is simply "shoagim".

What is your objection? We ask please help those who cry out, please help them. Hoshaana shoagim hoshaana. Why does it have to mean those who cry out "hoshaana"? How many people do you know who go around shouting "Hoshaana"? Certain fundamentalist cristian sects shout that. No Jews that I have ever known.

GEK

[Zev Sero]

First of all, "shoagim" is not a reason to help them. What are they
crying *for*? Every phrase in the paragraph is either a praise in
itself, or a difficulty despite which they they deserve the next praise.
As the song to these words goes, "although haharugoh olecho, and although
venechasheves letzon tivcho, and although zeruyoh bein mach'iseho, yet
chavukoh udvukoh boch", etc, and this is why You should help them. What
praise is "shoagim"? "Shoagim hosha`na" is a reason; they are crying
out for You for it. But stam crying?! What sort of reason is that?
"Aryeh yish'ag" is a reason to fear him, not to help him.

When do we go around shouting hosha`na? How can you ask that, when we
are about to do that very thing! Right now we are calling "hosha`na",
and that is a reason for Hashem to answer our call. "Please help us
now, as we are calling out for help".

Second every phrase in the paragraph, and indeed in all the paragraphs,
is a *phrase*, not a single word. That alone should be enough to show
that the "hosha`na" following it is not the concluding one but part of
the phrase.

[Jonathan Baker]

you mean it's not hoshana shoagim hoshana hoshana?  everywhere I've been, the chazan says hoshana phrase hoshana for each letter-phrase.

Oh, Baer is interesting with the punctuation.

Note that for Om ani choma, there's no dot between Shoagim and Hoshana.  For all the others (Adam ubehemah included as a sample) there is a dot between the shin-phrase and the hoshana.  So maybe he's indicating the hoshana does double duty here?  Maybe we should only say hoshana shoagim hoshana, hoshana temuchim alecha hoshana, rather than hoshana shoagim hoshana hoshana, ...?  or at least that there's some ambiguity here.

The phrase argument holds some water, but shoagim not being a possible phrase itself?  It certainly can - shaagah is not our articulated cries for help, it's a wordless roar. Shaagas aryeh, as the famous book.  So looking at the other 2-word phrases, many are not verb-object pairs, only here you want to insist it must be a verb-object pair with three words?  Not saying it can't be, but it's just as plausible to say:

please help those who roar, please help, as it is to say
please help congregation of Yaakov, please help, or

please help those whom You compared to a date, please help.

to pick another phrase in the same piyut.  So Zev's reading is possible, but not necessary.

On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

On 09/27/2015 09:11 AM, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 12:27:28 AM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:
 > I am agreeing with what the people in your shul do.  I am disagreeing
 > with your assertion that the phrase in the siddur is simply "shoagim".

What is your objection? We ask please help those who cry out, please help them. Hoshaana shoagim hoshaana. Why does it have to mean those who cry out "hoshaana"? How many people do you know who go around shouting "Hoshaana"? Certain fundamentalist cristian sects shout that. No Jews that I have ever known.

First of all, "shoagim" is not a reason to help them.  What are they
crying *for*?  Every phrase in the paragraph is either a praise in
itself, or a difficulty despite which they they deserve the next praise.
As the song to these words goes, "although haharugoh olecho, and although
venechasheves letzon tivcho, and although zeruyoh bein mach'iseho, yet
chavukoh udvukoh boch", etc, and this is why You should help them.  What
praise is "shoagim"?   "Shoagim hosha`na" is a reason; they are crying
out for You for it.   But stam crying?! What sort of reason is that?
"Aryeh yish'ag" is a reason  to fear him, not to help him.

When do we go around shouting hosha`na?  How can you ask that, when we
are about to do that very thing!   Right now we are calling "hosha`na",
and that is a reason for Hashem to answer our call.    "Please help us
now, as we are calling out for help".

Second every phrase in the paragraph, and indeed in all the paragraphs,
is a *phrase*, not a single word.  That alone should be enough to show
that the "hosha`na" following it is not the concluding one but part of
the phrase.

--

jon baker         |   blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com
tha...@gmail.com  | web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker

[Zev Sero]

On 10/03/2015 10:40 PM, Jonathan Baker wrote:
> you mean it's not hoshana shoagim hoshana hoshana?

How on earth could you possibly have reached that conclusion?

> everywhere I've been, the chazan says hoshana phrase hoshana for each
> letter-phrase.

From when he starts to go around, anyway. Before that each phrase is
preceded by "hoshana" but not followed by it. But remember the
*entire point* of this thread: the hypothesis that this practice is
incorrect, and only the last two phrases of each paragraph should have
a "hoshana" suffix as well as a prefix.

And this hypothesis was based on a claim that all the pre-modern
siddurim are consistent in giving a "hoshana" suffix for the last two
phrases in each paragraph. I don't accept that claim. I haven't
looked at a lot of old siddurim, but at least one old siddur (the
Alter Rebbe's) does not have these "hoshanas" at the end of the shin
phrase. But even the ones that do have them in *most* paragraphs
don't have one in Om Ani Choma. Therefore this is not a consistent
practise, and no conclusion can be drawn from it. To which was
countered the suggestion that the phrase is merely "shoagim".

> So looking at the other 2-word phrases, many are not verb-object
> pairs, only here you want to insist it must be a verb-object pair
> with three words?

What are you talking about? Who mentioned verbs or objects? And
what three words?

> it's just as plausible to say:
>please help those who roar, please help, as it is to say
> please help congregation of Yaakov, please help, or
> please help those whom You compared to a date, please help.

No, it isn't. There's nothing great about roaring. Why should Hashem
help those who roar? Aryeh yish'ag doesn't inspire sympathy, it
inspires fear! "Shoagim hoshana" is a reason why He should help us,
just like all the other phrases are reasons to help us.

[Mark Symons]

There seem to be 3 different minhagim:

1. To say Hoshana before each of of the alphabetical words/phrases (this is what the Rav of the Shule  - South Caulfield Hebrew Congregation, a suburb of Melbourne, Australia - where I grew up, R Shlomo Rudzki zl, did ). With this minhag, a Hoshana is also added right at the end, after the Tav word/phrase (and possibly also after the Shin word/phrase)

2. To say Hoshana after each of the above (eg Chabad).

2. To say Hoshana both before and after each of them (most minyanim I've been to) 

Chag Sameach 

Mark 

[Zev Sero]

On 10/03/2015 11:48 PM, Mark Symons wrote:
> There seem to be 3 different minhagim:
>
> 1. To say Hoshana before each of of the alphabetical words/phrases
> (this is what the Rav of the Shule - South Caulfield Hebrew
> Congregation, a suburb of Melbourne, Australia - where I grew up, R
> Shlomo Rudzki zl, did ). With this minhag, a Hoshana is also added
> right at the end, after the Tav word/phrase (and possibly also after
> the Shin word/phrase)

> 2. To say Hoshana after each of the above (eg Chabad).

That's certainly not the Chabad minhag, and I'm not aware that it's
anyone else's either.

> 2. To say Hoshana both before and after each of them (most minyanim
> I've been to)

Chabad minhag is a mixture of 1 and 3. It starts out as 1, but when
the chazan starts circling the bimah and saying each phrase responsively
it switches to 3.

[Nehemiah Klein]

REVELATION:

My sons davened vasikin this morning at the Hurva shul in the Old City.  The minyan is run by the Silberman family and their minhagim are based largely on the Gr"a.  In Hoshanos, the chazan says, for example: hoshanan lemaan amitach and the tzibur only answers hoshana without saying lemaan amitach, and so forth.  I asked them what did they do for "shoagim", they said that the chazan said "hoshana shoagim hosha na" and then the tzibur answered "hoshana", which translated into the more accepted practice: hoshana shoagim hosha na hosha na.  Interesting how they manage to avoid the Ashkenazic phobia of having to say everything printed in the siddur even if meant to be said only by the chazan (e.g. Hashem melech on Rosh Hashana).

A gut yom tov and a gut kvitel to all.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Saturday, October 3, 2015 at 11:06:21 PM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:

No, it isn't. There's nothing great about roaring.  Why should Hashem
help those who roar?   Aryeh yish'ag doesn't inspire sympathy, it
inspires fear!  "Shoagim hoshana" is a reason why He should help us,
just like all the other phrases are reasons to help us.

This morning after the prayers I was in  one of the shules' sukkos, and I heard an old Yiddish version of this stanza; it appears to agree with Mr Sero's version: Wehmen's ausgeseste seinen sei? P'duyas Toviyo; Vos faraa shov seinen sei? Tzon kodoshim; Wie azoy shreiben sei sich? R'shumim bish'mecho; Vas shreien sei? shoagim hoshaano; auf vehmen farlosen sei sich? T'muchim olecho.

GEK