P'sukei d'zimra - Shabbat

[Mark Symons]

Why does Nusach S'farad place all the extra content other than Mizmor shir l'yom hashabbat and H Malach before Baruch Sheamar? Is it not considered part of p'sukei d'zimra "proper"?

Mark S

[Zev Sero]

On 01/04/2015 01:52 PM, Mark Symons wrote:
> Why does Nusach S'farad place all the extra content other than Mizmor shir l'yom hashabbat and H Malach before Baruch Sheamar? Is it not considered part of p'sukei d'zimra "proper"?

Exactly. Just like Hodu, it's extra stuff, very nice, but a hefsek
inside Psukei Dezimra

[Aryeh Moshen]

I don't buy it.  If that were the case we would never say As Yashir before Yishtabach.  At least for Hodu - it was originally said as part of the Avodah and therefore you could make a strong case for it at the end of Korbanoth, before Baruch Sheamar.

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[Ari]

Yeah, but the Hefsek at the end doesn't bither them


Ari Kinsberg
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[Ari]

Everything is a Hefsek. Until someone says it isn't.

In this case it happens to go the opposite way. For a thousand years minhag ashkenaz was that it isn't a Hefsek and then two hundred years ago suddenly it became a Hefsek?

Ari Kinsberg

MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer

Brooklyn, New York

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[Ari]

Aryeh, az yashir is a later addition  and was controversial as a Hefsek and wasn't universally adopted

Ari Kinsberg

MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer

Brooklyn, New York

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On Jan 4, 2015, at 8:40 PM, "'Aryeh Moshen' via Davening Discussions" <davening-d...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

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[Mark Symons]

It's interesting how RYBS takes an almost completely opposite stance and says that we're not even allowed to recite any of the tehillim etc until we've said Baruch She'amar, as if this somehow gives permission to praise Gd. And similarly, at the end of PdZ, he seems to hold that nothing should follow Yishtabach, and therefore during AYT says Shir Hamaalot Mimaamakim before Yishtabach.

MSS

[Aryeh Moshen]

In that aspect the Chassidim are following the Real Sefardim.   But even they say As Yashir before Yishtabach (unlike the Rambam).  Agreeing with Ari if everything were a Hefseq then we should just have Ashrey and the Five Hallelukahhs in the Zemiroth (Psueky D'Zimra).

[Nehemiah Klein]

The shir hamaalos mimamakim is an old issue - the Vilna Gaon did not say it and therefore the standard Ashkenaz of Eretz Yisrael does not say it, this is based on the Gemara that one who speaks between Yishtabach and Kaddish is "chozeir meorchei hamilchama", has an aveira which gives him the right to return for a battle for not having enough zechuyos to protect him.  I am assuming that RYBS did not say it in its regular place out of deference to the Gr"a, the source of many Brisker minhagim.

[Aryeh Moshen]

Yes.  I thought that I at least implied that if anything is a Hefsek, As Yashir would qualify.  That you for spelling it out in the event that I was not sufficiently clear.  The Rambam had some people say it after Yishtabach (and others not at all).  It is likely the last addition to the Pesukey Dzimra.

On an additional note, I was with Turkish (Real, Real, Real) Sephardim several years ago and they did not say As Yashir on Tisha B'Av replacing it with Haazinu.  Although I am unsure if any other groups have that Minhag it makes a lot of sense.

[Zev Sero]

On 01/04/2015 08:40 PM, 'Aryeh Moshen' via Davening Discussions wrote:
> On Sunday, January 4, 2015 8:23 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 01/04/2015 01:52 PM, Mark Symons wrote:

>>> Why does Nusach S'farad place all the extra content other than
>>> Mizmor shir l'yom hashabbat and H Malach before Baruch Sheamar? Is
>>> it not considered part of p'sukei d'zimra "proper"?

>> Exactly. Just like Hodu, it's extra stuff, very nice, but a hefsek
>> inside Psukei Dezimra

> I don't buy it. If that were the case we would never say As Yashir
> before Yishtabach. At least for Hodu - it was originally said as part
> of the Avodah and therefore you could make a strong case for it at
> the end of Korbanoth, before Baruch Sheamar.

On the contrary, the fact that Az Yashir is said there shows that it
was accepted as an integral part of pesukei dezimra, whereas the other
additions were not. (Note that even the Italian nusach, which is not
at all shy about embedding piyutim anywhere, and which does have Ledavid
Beshanoto Et Ta`amo inside pesukei dezimra (between Az Yashir and Nishmat),
has Hodu and all the other Shabbos additions before Baruch She'amar.
This would seem to show that they are not considered part of pesukei dezimra.)

[Ari]

If it's later can it be "integral"?

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh, Certified Immunizer
Brooklyn, New York
**************
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[Zev Sero]

On 01/05/2015 03:38 PM, Ari wrote:

>> On the contrary, the fact that Az Yashir is said there shows that it
>> was accepted as an integral part of pesukei dezimra, whereas the other
>> additions were not.

> If it's later can it be "integral"?

Why not?

[Zev Sero]

On 01/04/2015 08:51 PM, Ari wrote:
>
> In this case it happens to go the opposite way. For a thousand years
> minhag ashkenaz was that it isn't a Hefsek and then two hundred years
> ago suddenly it became a Hefsek?

But we're not talkign about minhag Ashkenaz, we're talking about minhag
Sefard, which never had these things after Baruch She'amar. (The
chassidishe "Nusach Sefard" is an attempt to adapt davening to the
teachings of the Ari, who was working with Nusach Sefarad as his base.)

[Mark Symons]

So do we know which came first? The Minhag Sefarad practice of having them outside, with Ashkenaz later putting them inside, or vice versa? Or did they develop independently?

MSS

[Jonathan Baker]

What came first was PdZ directly before Shmone Esreh.  Hashem Sefatai is a relic of that era.

http://www.beureihatefila.com/files/Hashem_Sifasei_Tiftach.pdf

Prof. Uri Ehrlich found a Geniza siddur that included a short PdZ including Ps 150 just before Shmoneh Esreh.  He posits (with some support from the Gemara) that PdZ originally preceded Shmone Esreh directly, and brings a memra about R' Yosi to support it.  Then a few generations later, R' Yochanan introduced the idea of "smichat geulah litefillah", which displaced PdZ to back before KS and its brachot.

I don't think all those extra psalms we say on Shabbat/YT were in the Gemara, only the idea of "saying the end of Sefer Tehillim" on a daily basis.

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 7:17 PM, Mark Symons <msy...@alphalink.com.au> wrote:

So do we know which came first? The Minhag Sefarad practice of having them outside, with Ashkenaz later putting them inside, or vice versa? Or did they develop independently?

 

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tha...@gmail.com  | web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker

[Zev Sero]

On 02/25/2015 08:57 AM, Jonathan Baker wrote:
> What came first was PdZ directly before Shmone Esreh. Hashem Sefatai
> is a relic of that era.
>
> http://www.beureihatefila.com/files/Hashem_Sifasei_Tiftach.pdf
>
> Prof. Uri Ehrlich found a Geniza siddur that included a short PdZ
> including Ps 150 just before Shmoneh Esreh. He posits (with some
> support from the Gemara) that PdZ originally preceded Shmone Esreh
> directly, and brings a memra about R' Yosi to support it. Then a few
> generations later, R' Yochanan introduced the idea of "smichat geulah
> litefillah", which displaced PdZ to back before KS and its brachot.

See http://parsha.blogspot.com/2006/08/talking-between-yishtabach-and-yotzer_04.html


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[Mark Symons]

So when would Ps 145 have been recited? Perhaps it was originally recited not as part of PdZ - or was it also a later addition?

MSS

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:57:08 AM UTC-5, Jon Baker wrote:

> What came first was PdZ directly before Shmone Esreh.

> Hashem Sefatai is a relic of that era.

http://www.beureihatefila.com/files/Hashem_Sifasei_Tiftach.pdf

Interesting article, though entirely irrelevant to discussion of contemporary siddhur. I have only perused this briefly. I have one comment that struck me right away, though I will likely have more after reading more carefully at leisure.

Near the beginning, the author mentions R. Yochonon having lived five generations before Rabbon Gamaliel who authored the Sh'mone Esrei. If memory serves, this is wrong. The 18 were composed by Anshei K'nesses Hag'dola. Rabbon Gamaliel caused the 19th blessing to be added.

GEK

whishing everyone joyful Pourim (emphasis on "pour)