Umorid ha....

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

My siddurim print geshem rather than hagashem , including the ones
that pay some attention to what they are doing such as Koren. But if
the point is to avoid a possible form there why do they all have tal
with a kamatz rather than a patach?
Jeremy

[Zev Sero]

On 1 Mar. 2018 4:03 pm, "Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon" <jeremy...@nyu.edu> 

> But if the point is to avoid a pausal form there why do they all have tal

> with a kamatz rather than a patach

Because it's a later addition, an independent phrase dropped into the middle of the sentence, so it gets its own ending

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I do not follow your argument at all. Whenever it was inserted, it is certainly parallel to geshem/gashem, So I wouldn't it follow the same structure?

Jeremy

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[Zev Sero]

On 02/03/18 07:38, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:
> I do not follow your argument at all. Whenever it was inserted, it is
> certainly parallel to geshem/gashem, So I wouldn't it follow the same
> structure?

No, because it's an independent phrase that was dropped in to the
previous text, so it retains its own internal structure regardless of
the fact that it's now surrounded by a larger unit. So, "geshem" which
is an integral part of the original unit, is not a pause; "tol", which
ends its unit, is a pause.

If you like, think of it as a deliberate indication that this is not
part of the original text.

--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I get it now, although I don’t really buy it. Is this your own sevara,
Or is it based on something more than that?
Jeremy

[Zev Sero]

On 02/03/18 11:02, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:
> I get it now, although I don’t really buy it. Is this your own sevara,
> Or is it based on something more than that?

It's from Shaar Hakollel.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I’m afraid I’m not familiar with that Sefer. Can you tell me a bit about it?
Jeremy

[Zev Sero]

On 02/03/18 11:30, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:
> I’m afraid I’m not familiar with that Sefer. Can you tell me a bit about it?

It's a commentary on the Alter Rebbe's siddur, by R Avraham Lavut, who
also wrote Kav Naki, a well-known sefer on Hilchos Gittin, and whose
great-grandson became the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

The relevant page is here:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16002&pgnum=44

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Thanks.

[Joseph I. Lauer]

See also Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky zt"l's Emes L'Yaakov Al HaTorah for the discussion of Bereishis 3:19 (pp. 45-47), including at the end about the Nikkud for Geshem and Tal.
Joseph I. Lauer, Brooklyn, New York

[Nehemiah Klein]

Rav Moshe Feinstein writes gashem:

Shu”t Igros Moshe (Orach Chaim vol. 4, 40, 15). Also cited in Shu”t Rivevos Efraim(vol. 3: 68).

On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:17 PM, Joseph I. Lauer <josep...@hotmail.com> wrote:

See also Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky zt"l's Emes L'Yaakov Al HaTorah for the discussion of Bereishis 3:19 (pp. 45-47), including at the end about the Nikkud for Geshem and Tal.
Joseph I. Lauer, Brooklyn, New York

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