HaShabbos Kodesh

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

This morning at birkas hachodesh, it was announced that rosh chodesh will be "b'yom haShabbos Kodesh..." Not only at our minyon (and the other minyonim in our complex), but so far as my memory serves, this was the loshon in every shule I have ever attended for a rosh chodesh falling on Shabbos (be it only Shabbos, or both Shabbos and the following Sunday). This loshon is strange and appears to be unique. Whenever there are two nouns together with the first nismoch to the second, the definite artical is prefixed to the second noun, not the first. Beis HAk'nesses; beis HAmikdosh; beis HAmidrosh; v'chayyos HAkodesh; v'ofanei HAkodesh. So why, at "birkas Hachodesh", is the apparently universal custom to prefix the hey hay'dio to the first word, "haShabbos kodesh", and not "Shabbos HAkodesh", as would be the normal expression at any other occasion?

GEK
whishing everyone a good week, good chodesh, and good writing and sealing.

[Zev Sero]

On 27/08/16 21:14, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
> Whenever there are two nouns together with the first nismoch to the
> second, the definite artical is prefixed to the second noun, not the
> first. Beis HAk'nesses; beis HAmikdosh; beis HAmidrosh; v'chayyos
> HAkodesh; v'ofanei HAkodesh. So why, at "birkas Hachodesh", is the
> apparently universal custom to prefix the hey hay'dio to the first
> word, "haShabbos kodesh", and not "Shabbos HAkodesh", as would be the
> normal expression at any other occasion?

Why Shabbos hakodesh? The shabbos doesn't belong to the kodesh. The
correct phrase is "beyom shabbas kodesh". Why do so many gabboim get it
wrong? Because they are trying to speak a language they don't know, and
instinctively follow the pattern of "bayom horishon"..."bayom hashishi".


--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Saturday, August 27, 2016 at 9:26:02 PM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:

On 27/08/16 21:14, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
> Whenever there are two nouns together with the first nismoch to the
> second, the definite artical is prefixed to the second noun, not the
> first. Beis HAk'nesses; beis HAmikdosh; beis HAmidrosh; v'chayyos
> HAkodesh; v'ofanei HAkodesh. So why, at "birkas Hachodesh", is the
> apparently universal custom to prefix the hey hay'dio to the first
> word, "haShabbos kodesh", and not "Shabbos HAkodesh", as would be the
> normal expression at any other occasion?

Why Shabbos hakodesh?  The shabbos doesn't belong to the kodesh.  The
correct phrase is "beyom shabbas kodesh".  Why do so many gabboim get it
wrong?  Because they are trying to speak a language they don't know, and
instinctively follow the pattern of "bayom horishon"..."bayom hashishi".

As far as I can tell, shabbas (with patoch under the beis) means the Shabbos of. Shabbas kodesh means shabbos of the kodesh. And the proper placing of the hey hay'dio should be before kodesh, not before shabbos. As in ofanei hakodesh, or vhayyos hakodesh. Shabbas kodesh does not mean holy shabbos. That would be shabbos k'dosho. Shabbas kodesh means Shabbos of holiness. And if you want to prefix with a definite artical, it belongs before kodesh, not before shabbos. So I repeat my question: why does everybody say b'yom hashabbos kodesh, and not b'yom shabbos hakodesh?

GEK

[Zev Sero]

On 27/08/16 22:47, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
>
> As far as I can tell, shabbas (with patoch under the beis) means the
> Shabbos of. Shabbas kodesh means shabbos of the kodesh. And the
> proper placing of the hey hay'dio should be before kodesh, not before
> shabbos. As in ofanei hakodesh, or vhayyos hakodesh.

Those mean the ofanim and chayos which belong to the kodesh.

> Shabbas kodesh does not mean holy shabbos. That would be shabbos k'dosho.
> Shabbas kodesh means Shabbos of holiness.

Perhaps so, what of it? The fact is that the name of the say is
shabas kodesh. As in "beyom shabas kodesh", "hayom yom shabas kodesh",
and "lichvod shabbas kodesh".

> And if you want to prefix with a
> definite artical, it belongs before kodesh, not before shabbos.

Not true. Putting it there would mean that the shabbos belongs to the
kodesh, which is not at all what you mean. There is no place to put a
definite article on that phrase. If you want to say "*the* Shabos day"
you just say "yom hashabos", as in "uveyom hashabos".

> So I repeat my question: why does everybody say b'yom hashabbos kodesh,
> and not b'yom shabbos hakodesh?

I already answered that the first time. Go back to my previous reply
and read it, since you seem not to have done so even though you quoted it.

[Aryeh Moshen]

There are a few other cases of what may appear to be errors in grammar in out Siddur:

Yinkom instead of Yikkom

Batey Knesiyoth instead of Batey Kneeseth

and how many more years will we continue to produce translations of Arneveth and Shaafan to be animals that they cannot be as rabbits, hares, coneys, and hyraxes cannot qualify as being Maaley Gerah. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Davening Discussions" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to davening-discussions+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

All right, I see what you are saying. You object to the presence of the hey hay'dio at all. But the fact is, that the chazzonim (not gabbayim) universally do insert a hey hay'dio. And my point is that if there is a such a hey, it belongs prefixed to kodesh, not to Shabbos. So now I wilol incorporate your objection together with mibne in my question: why do chazzonim insert a definite artical, and, once doing so, why do they insert it in the wrong place?

GEK

[Zev Sero]

I already explained it the first time. Why should I bother repeating it
when you didn't bother reading it the first time, despite *quoting* it?
What reason do I have to suppose a second time would make you read it?

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 12:35:48 PM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:

I already explained it the first time.  Why should I bother repeating it
when you didn't bother reading it the first time, despite *quoting* it?
What reason do I have to suppose a second time would make you read it?

I have read your responses three times. You do not answer my question. Instead, you make a complaint of your own.

Fact: chazzanim everywhere have, for decades, been announcing chodesh with the phrase "hashabbos kodesh". That is a fact. you may not like it, but that is what they say.

My question: why do they put the "ha" before Shabbos, rather than before kodesh? You have never answered this question. apparently you don't know the answer, and are trying to hide that fact by introducing other questions that I didn't ask. Perhaps you are right. Don't bother trying again to supply an answer you don't know. Perhaps someone else here can answer my question.

Have a good writing and sealing, Mr Sero
Gershon Eliyahu

[Zev Sero]

On 28/08/16 13:12, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:

> I have read your responses three times. You do not answer my
> question. Instead, you make a complaint of your own.

I answered your question in full the first time you asked it. You persist
in ignoring it.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

If you want to continue this, please take it off-list.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Davening Discussions" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to davening-discuss...@googlegroups.com.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 1:27:13 PM UTC-4, Jeremy Simon wrote:

If you want to continue this, please take it off-list.

I don't want to continue this. What i do want is for someone on this list to answer my question with an explanation for the seemingly grammatically incorrect manner in which chazzonim chant the announcement of rosh chodesh that is to fall on shabbos.

GEK

[Zev Sero]

On 28/08/16 13:37, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
> I don't want to continue this. What i do want is for someone on this
> list to answer my question with an explanation for the seemingly
> grammatically incorrect manner in which chazzonim chant the
> announcement of rosh chodesh that is to fall on shabbos.

An answer has been supplied to you. Nobody can make you read it.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 1:38:34 PM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:

> an answer has been supplied to you.  Nobody can make you read it.

I saw your answer and I did read it. Something about gabboim using a language they don't know. But the announcement of the day that rosh chodesh will fall is not made by gabboim. The gabboim announce the molad. And yes, many do not know what they are doing and make a right cockup of it. But the day(s) of rosh chodesh is chanted by the chazzan. And one would expect that a chazan, a professional who is trained in leading the liturgy, would know how it is to be said. And I want to know why chazonim universally get it wrong.

GEK

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Genuk schoin

--

[Zev Sero]

On 28/08/16 18:54, Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
> But the day(s) of rosh chodesh is chanted by the chazzan. And one
> would expect that a chazan, a professional who is trained in leading
> the liturgy, would know how it is to be said. And I want to know why
> chazonim universally get it wrong.

Most chazonim are not trained, they're just whoever had yortzeit, or
maftir, or just volunteered to do musaf, or was volunteered. Even those
who are trained in the traditional melodies have almost certainly not
received any training on this. Everyone is just copying what they have
heard others do, and/or guessing. And the pattern "bayom harishon",
"bayom hasheni", etc., leads one instinctively to put a hei in front of
shabbos too.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 7:12:59 PM UTC-4, Jeremy Simon wrote:

> Genuk schoin

What is your problem here? I am trying to get an answer to my question, and have been repeatedly frustrated at it. And now you want the matter dropped. Why? If you have an answer, I am happy to learn it. And if not, why stifle someone else who may have an answer?

GEK

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 8:31:59 PM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:

>  And the pattern "bayom harishon","bayom hasheni", etc., leads one
> instinctively to put a hei in front of shabbos too.

Ah! Now we are getting somewhere. Some chazzonim are ignorant, and just put the hay right after bayom, as they do with bayom horishon etc. I can accept that. But my problem is that this was done by every single chazzan, in every single shule I ever attended, on three continents, over eight decades. Surely somewhere, sometime, the ought be some chazzan who knows how to say it properly. My impression is that bayom hashabbos kodesh is the official nusach of how it is to be said, and my question is why, since the grammatic construction is wrong? I am reluctant to accept that everyone is an am hooretz, and only we few chachomim who read and write on this list have it right.

GEK

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Because you two are simply exchanging "I already answered you" "No you didn't" "Yes I did"... Anyone else who can contribute will be alerted to the matter by the prior emails. The further exchanges add nothing to moving the question forward.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Davening Discussions" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to davening-discussions+unsubscrib...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Associate Professor of Medicine at CUMC (Emergency Medicine)
Columbia University