Sources for two minhagim

[Nehemiah Klein]

Wishing everyone a gezunte zummer (though in Eretz Yisrael now the weather is wintry).  Given that on Pesach much emphasis is placed on people's mesorah, be it gebrokts or many other things, I was happy to find sources for two minhagim which many I know mocked as I insisted - there is no such thing as a minhag shetus if a large portion of Klal Yisrael follows it:

1) On motzaei Yom Tov rishon, someone in the shul (the gabbai was not at that minyan) wished to remind everyone of the changes in the Shemone Esrei, "klopped" four times - one for morid hatal (I know in chutz la'aretz this is not said, but the same would apply for omitting morid hagashem), one for ata chonantanu, one of vesein bracha and one for yaale veyavo.

Given that I am still not sure why people do not make announcements, given that Shulchan Aruch and any poskim I have seen say it is permitted (though, yes given that it is widespread to do so there must be a posek who rules that announcing would be a hefsek, so I will not mock it), I decided to focus on vesein bracha and announce that (I figured the others were more obvious and given that I am not a gabbai I did not wish to overstep my bounds).

I then went over to the guy who "klopped" and showed him that it seems to be permitted to make announcements and told him that Yekkes even have a minhag of announcing "yaale veyavo" on the first night of Rosh Chodesh and "Rosh Chodesh" on the second night.  Of course he cynically laughed making fun of  Yekkes and their minhagim, and lo and behold - it is explicitly written in the Maharil HIlchos Rosh Chodesh.  The Maharil as many of you know is the source of many minhagim cited by the Rema.

2) The minhag in many communities in Eretz Yisrael is that on Yom Tov, during Birkas Kohanim, the Kohanim sing while the tzibbur says the tefilla for the dreams - only once, at "shalom".  I never understood why not to do it three times at "veyishmerecha, vichuneka, and shalom" as is done in chutz la'aretz and as is brought down in the Rema, Mishna Berurah, and anywhere else I saw.  I was never able to find a source for doing it only once.

The American cynics I have spoken to will tell you that there is really no reason to do it in Eretz Yisrael when duchening every day and they are doing it on Yom Tov for nostalgic reasons and it is a form of compromise.

Well, I found quoted a Kaf Hachaim in the name of the Arizal that it should only be done once.  Given that many minhagei Eretz Yisrael are kabbalistically based, this fits in nicely.

Bottom line - there is a source for everything, especially that which is so widespread.

This truly enhanced my simchas Yom Tov.

[Aryeh Moshen]

At the risk of being stoned (and called a chauvinist) one should point out that the Mekoros for Jeckie minhagim can always be found in excellent sources, usually Rishonim and early Acharonim.  One cannot say the same about the customs of Eastern Europeans whether Ashkenazic or pseudo-Sephardic.  And not only that there are times when the holy ArtScroll is wrong or at least a bit misleading.

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[MP]

Thank you, R'Nehemiah, for that post.  In it, you wrote, "there is no such

thing as a minhag shetus if a large portion of Klal Yisrael follows it," so I'll take a crack at proposing as a minhag shtus parents not purchasing a talis gadol for their sons until marriage merely because "ki yikach ish ishah" follows "g'dilim ta'aseh lach" (and perhaps because MaHaRYL answered a sh'eyla from a Rhine-region fellow who followed such a minhag), as any reasons for such a minhag (e.g. the expense) no longer exist.

All the best from

Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Sunday, April 12, 2015 at 9:44:27 PM UTC-4, Michael Poppers wrote:

Thank you, R'Nehemiah, for that post.  In it, you wrote, "there is no such

thing as a minhag shetus if a large portion of Klal Yisrael follows it," so I'll take a crack at proposing as a minhag shtus parents not purchasing a talis gadol for their sons until marriage merely because "ki yikach ish ishah" follows "g'dilim ta'aseh lach" (and perhaps because MaHaRYL answered a sh'eyla from a Rhine-region fellow who followed such a minhag), as any reasons for such a minhag (e.g. the expense) no longer exist.

I might agree, were it so that the reason is "merely" because this verse follows that verse, or because of expense. There is in fact kabbalistic reasoning to this (though apparently from non-Lurianic sources) having to do with the makkifin of one's soul not being completed until after marriage.

But to follow your train of thought: what about girls/women not lighting Shabbas/Yom Tov lights before marriage? Is that, too, not based on causes not relevant in modern life? So are you promoting the abandonment of this practice, and adopting the practice of Habad (and some others) to have even young girls light?

GEK

GEK

[Michael Stein]

I had always wondered whether the purpose was to make it easy to spot
the eligible bachelors from a distance. :)

[Meir]

     There is no comparison between girls' candle lighting and boys' tallit donning.  Wearing a tallit for davening is an obligation on the indivual, while candle lighting is an obligation on the household.  Where there is no married woman in a house, all agree that candles must nonetheless be kindled, whether by an unmarried woman or -- in the absence of women -- by a man.  Mei'ikkar hadin, when a married woman is a guest in someone else's home, she has no obligation to light.  Her doing so  is an obligation married women have accepted upon themselves.  Unmarried women, on the other hand, virtually universally did not accept such an obligation, until some did at the behest of the Lubavitcher Rebbe z"l, so there is no reason to push for it  The same cannot be said about boys wearlng a tallit for davening.

     (Parenthetically, when the Rebbe began his campaign -- IIRC, in the early '60s -- Chabad issued a pamphlet which listed various gedolim whose young daughters purportedly lit candles.  One cited example was the Brisker dynasty.  I spent many a Shabbat in the home of one of the daughters of the Brisker Rav z"l, a daughter married to one of the Rav's talmidim muvhakim who adhered to the Rav's hanhagot, and I can attest that none of the unmarried daughters lit candles.)

Meir

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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 06:15:32 -0700
From: kepip...@hotmail.com
To: davening-d...@googlegroups.com
CC: MichaelPopp...@gmail.com
Subject: [davening] Re: Sources for two minhagim

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 9:25:51 PM UTC-4, meir b. wrote:

> There is no comparison between girls' candle lighting and boys' tallit donning.

> Wearing a tallit for davening is an obligation on the indivual...

Is it? Does a man (or boy) who is wearing a leibtzudek (tallis kotton) have an individual "obligation" to do a tallis godol for davening? Or is it merely a minhag people have accepted upon themselves? In which case, those who have not accepted such minhag before marriage, have no obligation. And if the TG is required for k'vod hatzibbur, is it not sufficient that the chazzan, korei, etc, serving official functions, wear one.

GEK

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Even if you aren't wearing a Tallis koton, there is no obligation to put on a begged arba kanfos, let alone specifically during davening. 

Jeremy

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[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 9:55:32 AM UTC-4, Jeremy Simon wrote:

> Even if you aren't wearing a Tallis koton, there is no obligation to put on a

> begged arba kanfos, let alone specifically during davening. 

If by obligation you mean a specific chiyyuv, then technically, no, thre is no obligation to put on a tallis, be it koton or godol, just to obligate oneself in tzitzis. Nonetheless, SA OC 24:1 states "vtov v'nochon lihyos kol odom zohir lilbosh TK kol hayyom".

See also ibid 8:11 "IKKAR mitzvas TK l'lovsho al b'godov k'dei sheTOMID yir'eihu v'yizkor hammitzvos.

And as I pointed out, these "zohir" and "ikkar mitzvas" mitzvos refer to the TK, not the TG.

As for specifically during davening, see RMBM Hil Tzitzis 3: 11,12, especiall end of 11 "Uvish'as hat'fillo tzorich L'HIZZOHEIR B'YOSEIR; gnai godol l'salmidei chachomim sheyispallelu v'heim einom m'utofim.

GEK

[MP]

RGEK asked of Meir:

> Does a man (or boy) who is wearing a leibtzudek (tallis kotton) have 

an individual "obligation" to do a tallis godol for davening? Or is it 

merely a minhag people have accepted upon themselves? <

The obligation is ituf (see BT Sukah 42a and how rishonim like RaMBaM [Hilchos Tzitzis 3] and Tur [OC 17:3] bring the sugya l'halacha), and it's an obligation on a minor, not just on an adult.  That is why I specifically mentioned a talis gadol [TG] (and I must add that when I had an involved discussion with my Shul's Rabbi about his not educating the public, much less his family, in this mitzva when his go-to source, the ba'al Mishna B'rura, insisted [see MB 17:10*] that boys should start wearing a talis at least when they're B'nei Mitzva, he eventually answered that ituf could be done w/ a talis qatan [TQ], and I closed the discussion asking if he intended to educate the public on how to perform ituf with a TQ, as I doubted anyone was or indeed could do so with the TQs most of the boys under discussion currently wear!!).

Tangentially, I don't per se mind RGEK mentioning candle lighting, but I only mentioned the TG (and the minhag not to wear one until marriage) in this forum because a talis is typically part of our davening environment.  In a private response to RGEK, I, like Meir, questioned his girls-not-lighting example, as I only understood the "v'tzivanu l'hadliq" as applicable to the head of the household, and in any case, I asked him to source "kabbalistic reasoning to this (though apparently from non-Lurianic sources) having to do with the makkifin of one's soul not being completed until after marriage" for the sake of at least my education in this matter.  

*) Incidentally, k'vodo bimqomo munach, but l'aniyus da'ti MB misunderstood Seifer MaHaRYL, as I've pointed out in various fora -- when one understands that MaHaRYL was merely answering the shoeil based on that shoeil's minhag and not saying that such a minhag was correct, what MB labels "tamu'ah" isn't!