ACE Labs PC-3000 Portable III: NVMe Support!

[Networks]

Hey Guys I am looking for feedback from those of you that may have one of these already ? I can't tell if this is replacing the Core UDMA system that most DR shops use daily. I have never made the investment past the DeepSpar systems the V3 and V4 that I have relied on. The SSD and USB devices along with the Nvme drives are becoming more common these days.

Thanks

Jim

[t...@desertdatarecovery.com]

Hi Jim

 

There has been some confusion about this. The Portable IS NOT replacing the PC3000 UMDA or Express. It is mainly used for ‘off-site’ forensic work so is portable. They have included NVMe support with this product, so we all expect it will be supported in the PC3000 UDMA at some future point.

 

https://blog.acelaboratory.com/pc-3000-portable-iii-great-tool-the-nvme-support-what-else-is-good.html

 

Tim

 

Tim Homer - Lead Engineer

Desert Data Recovery

t...@desertdatarecovery.com

www.desertdatarecovery.com

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[compos mentis]

AFAICT, the portable unit can do everything that the internal units can do, and it has optional RAID and SSD add-ons.

https://blog.acelaboratory.com/pc-3000-portable-iii-great-tool-the-nvme-support-what-else-is-good.html

[Fraser Corrance]

When I was in Prague in December taking classes from Ace I asked Victor about when are they going to be adding support for NVMe to the PC3000 Express. He said it should be supported in another year. The way he explained it though was that the new PC3000 portable has an additional controller in it that is better suited for working with the NVMe/PCIe drives. I have to wonder if they will release a new version of the PC3000 Express/UDMA with this additional controller built in or will they be able to add support to our existing PC3000s by simply using a software plugin. 

Fraser

[jol qwerr]

@Fraser

"He said it should be supported in another year"

Roman said in Oct. 2018
That sk hynyx SH87820BB controller (SSD) will be added in 2019
https://forum.acelaboratory.com/viewtopic.php?t=9878

N still (Mar. 2020 its not supported)
So what

[Scott Moulton]

From what I have heard, I don’t believe it will ever be supported. I think there will be a new release.

 

Thank you,

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[Networks]

Hey Scott.

Do you have one of the new Portable III units ?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/datarecoverycertification/E08A96F2-CB62-4AAB-9BA2-3988A63B6B4D%40myharddrivedied.com.

[Scott Moulton]

No, not yet.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/datarecoverycertification/CABmdQmC2mrD9z3eDZT9Ysv0KF12uOTqwwEe4QRuV5055_8qsEg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Networks]

Ok thanks I was hoping someone on the list had one that could give all of us some feedback. Its pretty expensive compared to the PCI Card version.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/datarecoverycertification/938FC678-3B47-46A4-8291-32E1D92EF23E%40myharddrivedied.com.

[Fraser Corrance]

I am in the process of putting together a proposal for my boss so I can get an additional workstation for the shop. When I compare the price of a PC3000 Express + a new workstation, the price is not that much different. I am seriously considering picking up one of these....well, that is if I can convince my boss we need one...lol. We keep getting more and more NVMe drives in for recovery these days. It's really frustrating not having any option to be able to more accurately diagnose and recover theses types of drives.

This is the pricing Ace gave me.

► PC-3000 Portable III System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs) - $9,950.00
► PC-3000 Portable III SSD System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs and NVMe/SATA SSDs) - $12,830.00
► PC-3000 Portable III RAID System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs and RAID) - $12,550.00
► PC-3000 Portable III Ultimate System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs, NVMe/SATA SSDs, and RAID) - $15,870.00

The specs are pretty damn impressive although the fact that is portable is of no real advantage to me the way that I would be using it. 

@Scott

I think you are probably correct about the current PC3000 Exspress/UDMA not being able to support NVMe. Perhaps they could add support through an expansion card (wishful thinking) but it's more than likely going to end up being a new release of the PC3000 card with built in support for the NVMe drives.

I suppose the question is, do I buy the portable unit or wait for the next version of PC3000 card to be release? :-/

Fraser

[Truman HW]

This is the pricing Ace gave me.

► PC-3000 Portable III System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs) - $9,950.00
► PC-3000 Portable III SSD System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs and NVMe/SATA SSDs) - $12,830.00
► PC-3000 Portable III RAID System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs and RAID) - $12,550.00
► PC-3000 Portable III Ultimate System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs, NVMe/SATA SSDs, and RAID) - $15,870.00

 

I think you are probably correct about the current PC3000 Exspress/UDMA not being able to support NVMe. Perhaps they could add support through an expansion card (wishful thinking) but it's more than likely going to end up being a new release of the PC3000 card with built in support for the NVMe drives.

The question is: Do I buy the portable unit or wait for the next version of PC3000 card to be release? :-/

Maybe the more we hold off on buying an entire new system ... the more they'll be pressured to create an add-on..? :)
(admittedly, my interpretation is probably the real wishful thinking) ... 

For that matter... maybe they'll "add on SAS support to the Express card" ... :)

 

[Desert Data Recovery]

My concern is that the amount of NVMe drives Portable can recover is pretty small. I have PC3K SSD and I would say only 25% of the SSDs we get in are supported.

If you are in the situation where you need to increase capacity then maybe it falls right for you, but buying Portable just for NVMe is just not feasible.

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[DiskTuna]

You didn't by accident ask for the price for the flash too?

[Luke Coughey]

Flash is $2980

With all the extras, $5850

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[jpv...@gmail.com]

Thanks!

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------ Original Message ------

From: "Luke Coughey" <lcou...@recoveryforce.com>

To: datarecovery...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 3/7/2020 12:43:53 PM

Subject: Re: ACE Labs PC-3000 Portable III: NVMe Support!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/datarecoverycertification/CAM_TZbEcTA-zCDfBF6%2BXmn8oWKJ%3D%2BeMdiAk47CM7q-%3D_hFyvFw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Data Recovery Guru]

A while ago, I received a reply from Roman saying that they often don't get the same SSDs in Russia for recovery, as others receive in other parts of the world. Therefore, there is a discrepancy in support.

It would be nice if ACE would be more open/transparent with us [the clients] in describing truly what is on their developing list currently. Or if they need new SSDs to study on, have a section asking the public for them. I am sure many of us could put together few dollars to purchase a new SSD to send them for development, for a particular family/controller type.

Personally, I am getting to the point where I just don't see the value in paying for their pricey support. Either better development support is necessary or the support price needs to come down significantly.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/datarecoverycertification/CAOasWzsT6mNnh6Jz7XZ9ETzsBAwd_KZ25KAa001swi3LrJBR5g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Luke Coughey]

MRT support  is cheaper. :D

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/datarecoverycertification/CAHoXmq%3DfxHa2y8DmEWX5HkjGjO63mJ_Q80hKXzsvsRaWssQ_rg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Friedrich Wawrik]

Hi,to all! :-)

I am from Austria and Switzerland

I bought my first PC3000 in 2003.

It cost me approximately 1000 USD.

I had nine pieces of them.

Then the bosses changed.

I don´t know the year I think it was 2010 or 11.

Afterwards nothing was the same.

The reasonable prices were gone.

Prices are abnormal now.

In former times they had the same bad support like MRT now.

But you had to go to Russia ...to Rostow for ten days.The whole journey had to cost you maybe USD 3000,- but it was super because there all lessons about the drives and the flash memory where told in these courses.

Now you get for every purchase of a new product one month support and after one month you must pay again more than USD 1000,- per product.

First time I was angry when I was writing something to their Forum mostly about SSD and mainly their support wrote back that they are not willing to help me out I must take a support ticket then they try to help me,

That meant pay a year support which you need maybe three times a year and one update maybe two updates a year.

I stopped this senseless cash cow and try to help myself as good as I can with my more than 30 years experience.

Older drive we sometimes repair with the PC3k older cards e.g. an ST31000340AS with LED 0000000CC fault within 2minutes :-) with this old card.

But for the NVMe SSDs the situation is really worse at the moment.

I think it will cost us all our reputation which we have at our customers if nobody has the right solutions for this kind of new junk. 

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 2:54:12 PM UTC+1, Luke Coughey wrote:

MRT support  is cheaper. :D

On Sat., Mar. 7, 2020, 07:45 Data Recovery Guru, <proz...@gmail.com> wrote:

A while ago, I received a reply from Roman saying that they often don't get the same SSDs in Russia for recovery, as others receive in other parts of the world. Therefore, there is a discrepancy in support.

It would be nice if ACE would be more open/transparent with us [the clients] in describing truly what is on their developing list currently. Or if they need new SSDs to study on, have a section asking the public for them. I am sure many of us could put together few dollars to purchase a new SSD to send them for development, for a particular family/controller type.

Personally, I am getting to the point where I just don't see the value in paying for their pricey support. Either better development support is necessary or the support price needs to come down significantly.

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020, 9:25 PM Desert Data Recovery <t...@desertdatarecovery.com> wrote:

My concern is that the amount of NVMe drives Portable can recover is pretty small. I have PC3K SSD and I would say only 25% of the SSDs we get in are supported.

If you are in the situation where you need to increase capacity then maybe it falls right for you, but buying Portable just for NVMe is just not feasible.

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020, 6:47 PM Truman HW <trum...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the pricing Ace gave me.

► PC-3000 Portable III System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs) - $9,950.00
► PC-3000 Portable III SSD System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs and NVMe/SATA SSDs) - $12,830.00
► PC-3000 Portable III RAID System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs and RAID) - $12,550.00
► PC-3000 Portable III Ultimate System (for SATA/PATA/USB HDDs, NVMe/SATA SSDs, and RAID) - $15,870.00

 

I think you are probably correct about the current PC3000 Exspress/UDMA not being able to support NVMe. Perhaps they could add support through an expansion card (wishful thinking) but it's more than likely going to end up being a new release of the PC3000 card with built in support for the NVMe drives.

The question is: Do I buy the portable unit or wait for the next version of PC3000 card to be release? :-/

Maybe the more we hold off on buying an entire new system ... the more they'll be pressured to create an add-on..? :)
(admittedly, my interpretation is probably the real wishful thinking) ... 

For that matter... maybe they'll "add on SAS support to the Express card" ... :)

 

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[Data Recovery Guru]

I would like to add that I have started believing from about 8+ years ago, that Ace tech support is not really meant for the advanced PC3000 users. It is meant for the techs that are just beginning to use PC3000 and are new to the data recovery industry. I can see how this category of users would reach out with many support inquiries and truthfully, would be convenient, therefore justifying the cost. However, within a couple of years that gap from new to more experienced is narrowing, therefore the need for trivial support becomes low. 

So now, the experienced users category know how to utilize most of functions in the tool, so support is really not needed. Personally, I reach out to Ace maybe up to 5 times a year, if not less. I don't want to ask, honestly, because I learned to expect a disappointing reply. And it is mostly questions about tool functionality, meaning how does something work in PC3000. 

For example, about a month ago, I was asking a question about error in an attempt to load a loader in RAM for an older WD Marvell My Passport HDD. The answer/reply was literally why don't you try this, whatever it was, which I have already tried. And many other times, same scenario, just not good support. I feel they don't want to help experienced users asking advanced questions. That is the most frustrating part, along with technological support for SSDs themselves, that makes it tough to justify the ridiculous annual tech support. Not to mention that it is per tool, not per user/account.

Petri

DATARECOVERYGURU

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[Friedrich Wawrik]

Hi Petri,

I totallyagree.

As you wrote most frustrating is to pay for something which you really don`t need after a while.

They should split it up to a price for only getting updates or a price for support and updates.

That would be more fair for guys like us.

In early days they wrote really very good manuals.

But now you should take courses too which cost sometimes from US 800,- to more than 3000,-.

There they tell you more in depth things as I could see at my SSD course in Prague 2017.

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[PCLAB]

Well. I want to share my experience with support:

I had a case of an unknow loader for an unsupported SSD (A Kingston SSD).

I talked to them, and even without active support, they helped me out. They got dumps of all the chips, I sent them for them, they analyzed it and came out with a solution that managed to recover the data.

Of course, now that solution will be out for all other guys. That took almost 3 months to be done, but it was done.

When I was in Prague I also talked with Roman about another Samsung 850 Pro, that being on the support list, it cannot be recovered. He said that sometimes a different version of the firmware can cause that and since they don't have access to all the models, if I ship them the SSD they could manage to create a solution.

That wasn't possible but because the Russian Post office didn't allowed the package entering Russia and it was returned to me ahahahah

But they were very available and open for that.

[t...@desertdatarecovery.com]

@Jim - It has been confusing. Portable is not replacing PC3000, it is an additional tool designed with forensic guys in mind who may need to do data recovery work on site rather than in the office. PC3000 Express and UDMA will continue as normal.

https://blog.acelaboratory.com/pc-3000-portable-iii-great-tool-the-nvme-support-what-else-is-good.html

 

@PCLAB – You might have pissed a few people off on this forum. I pay thousands of dollars a year on support with Ace Labs. That support can be sketchy from certain engineers/departments (not all). Over the past couple of years there has crept in an ‘attitude’ with responses. So to read that Ace offer ‘free’ support to people who do not pay for it really is not good to hear.

 

 

Tim Homer - Lead Engineer

Desert Data Recovery

t...@desertdatarecovery.com

www.desertdatarecovery.com

 

From: datarecovery...@googlegroups.com <datarecovery...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of PCLAB
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 2:12 PM
To: DataRecoveryCertification <datarecovery...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: ACE Labs PC-3000 Portable III: NVMe Support!

 

Well. I want to share my experience with support:

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[Mr. Networks]

Hey Tim

Thanks I had seen the forensics part. The Nvme is what got my interest peaked. I run into them a lot these days. I guess only time will tell if Ace is going to handle that with the PC3K. 

Jim's iPhone

On Mar 9, 2020, at 11:09 AM, t...@desertdatarecovery.com wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/datarecoverycertification/18bb01d5f624%24a9299d70%24fb7cd850%24%40desertdatarecovery.com.

[TrumanHW]

If I'm not mistaken, PCLab has a relationship with Ace Labs that's not governed by the "Free vs. Paid Support" which is otherwise the norm. I believe he may have, in his haste, omitted certain atypical aspects of their relationship which would compel Ace to offer PCLab assistance that they may, otherwise, not. 

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth ... and even more importantly, I don't want to disclose information that's perhaps private. Suffice to say, the mistake was implying that this was just an auspice ... or even more tenuous, indicative of a trend at Ace Labs.

I'm confident that the annual costs are still both worth it and necessary for the lion share of clients. 

(I hope I haven't misspoken, either)

 

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[Frank Meincke]

I kind of, do not want to wade into this conversation, but since it has drifted a bit away from the main point NVMe support to just plain support and tech-support I figured I would add my 2 cents in.  Right off the bat I will say I have known and worked with Tech Support for many years, so one could think/say I am biased, probably am, but that is me.

 

I have been using the PC-3000 around 11 years now, in the begining I used Tech-Support very often (as Data Recovery Guru has rightfully stated). Now I use them sporatically throughout the year, sometimes more and sometimes less per month.  Every year I pay the Tech Support and the software upgrades as part of my business operations. Bottom line is, this is an expensive business to get into and to maintain.

 

Tech Support- I look at it like this.  If someone wants to use me as a Technical Expert in the Computer field, I do not charge 20 dollars an hour, but more like 80-140 dollars an hour depending upon which area of expertise they require.  They pay for the amount of time consumed to accomplish the job. So apply that model to Tech Support, what is their per hour to us worth? Honestly for me, if they charged a per hour fee, my yearly expenses would clearly surpass the TS Support fee for one year (thinking back over the past years).  This is a complex field and it could take us days to find the correct solution to solve a problem (or hours).

 

Software Updates/Upgrades- This field is changing continously and the manufacturers are making recoveries more difficult (by accident or design) so we have to find new ways of recovering data.  If Ace Labs provides us a solution, there is a lot of research that has to be done to come up with a proper solution to function correctly.  I think about the Seagate 7200.11 solution of so many years ago.  What was once complicated to resolve, can be done very fast, did one need a PC3K, no but it made it a lot easier. Rosewood media cache problems, I like them for I can solve them quickly (for the most part) and earn money from the recoveries.  You may admitt that with the PC3K (or Deepspar, UFS explorer.. etc) with the right tools some jobs are where we can really make money.

 

Self Reflection – for a basic failed head, service area modules, etc I can solve them pretty fast, but do I just say well that only took me a moment, so here you go… No I charge for my many years of experience, training and knowledge. I know the value of my time, if the customer feels that my time/price exceeds the worth of their data then they decline the recovery.  Sure there are many free programs out there which can work with most recoveries and the customers can go and use them. Of course,  I get many cases where the patient has a directory with RECUVA and a very current date and i begin to weep.

 

So yes the technology is ever changing and we have to be more creative in what we do.  All around me are computer stores that advertise Data Recovery, where they mostly use free or really inexpensive software. When they send the people to me, i am not charging what they charge, but that which is standard for the level of investment that I have put into my equipment, travelling the world over to learn my craft and the long nights pondering over complex problems. This goes back to the basic statement, Time is money.

 

If one were to contemplate the above points, then maybe one can see that what they charge per one unit and the deep discount on the second or more unit, I feel there is value added.

 

Anyway, that is my 2 cents (with the friends and family discount).

 

Have a great day

Frank

 

[PCLAB]

Hi Tim (and other members)

I didn't wanted to piss anyone.

As Truman said, I'm an Acelab Partner and I help on development. Of course I need to pay support as well and the same prices that you pay too (no discounts here).

But if I get an unsual case they usually take a look and if they check out it is worth to go for it, they go and help. The idea is to improve the tool for everyone.

If you find a bug and tell them, they will appreciate it, because it's for the best of us all.

What I mean, is that support is not "hermetic" closed. They keep on helping and providing support.

I hope I could clear this for all.

[Carlos Marmolejos]

Totally agreed with 

Frank Meincke, you spoke for 100 years.. . , lol best regards to everyone.

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Síguenos por:

[t...@desertdatarecovery.com]

@PCLAB I know you are an Ace Lab partner and presumed that is why you got the additional support.

Maybe phrasing it a little better would have helped 😊

A lot of people ‘lurk’ on this forum and did not want them to get the wrong idea.

 

Tim Homer - Lead Engineer

Desert Data Recovery

t...@desertdatarecovery.com

www.desertdatarecovery.com

 

From: datarecovery...@googlegroups.com <datarecovery...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of PCLAB
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 3:10 AM
To: DataRecoveryCertification <datarecovery...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: ACE Labs PC-3000 Portable III: NVMe Support!

 

Hi Tim (and other members)

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[PCLAB]

Sometime the English doesn't come out right.

But I hope everything is clear now ehehehhe

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[dragonink80]

I pay full price for their service/updates as well.  As should everyone. 

Don Anderson 

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

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[Fraser Corrance]

I don't really think the prices they charge are really that unreasonable when you consider all that goes into the continued development of tools like this. It's true, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. I wish it would support more models of drives but I am grateful for all the drives it does support. Yah, there are less expensive tools out there but I have yet to see one that even comes close to the products Ace offers. 

Back to the original subject of NVMe support,....

This is the extent of NVMe SSDs that are currently supported:

Supported controllers:

Silicon Motion SM2260G
Silicon Motion SM2263XT
HP - Silicon Motion H8068 (SM2263XT)

Supported models:

ADATA XPG SX7000
Radeon R5
HP EX900
Lexar NM600
Zion NFP03
Transcend MTE110S

I fail to see how I can talk my boss into spending the money on the portable unit when I have only seen one of the NVMe drives on the list in the last year. I may just wait till they release the desktop version and hopefully they will have more supported models by then. 

Fraser