High capacity single drives

[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

A interesting one from Reddit - at least I think so.

Exos x20.  User reports to have accidentally wiped the partitions with "clean" in diskpart the drive has 16TB of data they now want from it. 

What do you quote for it and what would you actually charge the client for the recovery - assuming the fault report was accurate. 

[Eastcoast Data Recovery]

When I read that post, the customer sounded a bit deluded.  Sounds like a pain, and happens when people mistakenly think it's an easy fix and how it could cost "that" much.  

You would need to still clone the drive before starting, which takes up space and time and then start the work using software tools and generate reports.  Likely you would still use the PC3k and Data Extractor.

He says he wants the partition back the way it is rather than the files, but no one in their right mind would just run dmde or something like testdisk to write back the partition table without taking precautions above.  There's a high chance it wouldn't work and then you would be in a worse position.

  I get the impression he just wants it back exactly as it was so the original drive works before the "clean" but then do you trust the original drive is OK?  If it were to fail later then who is at fault?

It needs to be fully cloned and then analysed and recovered back onto a fresh drive.  Customers gotta realise there is no quick fix, especially if they value their data.  

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[pbzcbf...@gmail.com]

The bottom line is that the customer recovered his own data in two minutes with freeware after being told by Rossmann that they couldn't do it.

And there is no mistake, it is an easy fix. I've helped many users do exactly the same thing, probably hundreds of times.

[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

Google keeps eating my posts for some reason?

Technically the user is still recovering his data and will be for some time at 40mb/sec it could still fail, but yes they have a path to data. I don't disagree that it's unreasonable to price those type of jobs over the 4TB-6TB mark as we ( I ) have been doing - but how can you price them other than on capacity/time ? 

[Louis Man]

I am Glad it worked out for him using Dmde.

Given the tools we have and the precautions we need to take even for the simple jobs it would still have been few hundred £ or dollars.  Which granted is a lot more than free.

Not sure why Rossman tossed it aside or said it wasn't possible. 

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[t...@desertdatarecovery.com]

Indeed. 99% of the time the free fix works. But as professional data recovery engineers we have to account for the 1% with every recovery we do. So we have to image every case that comes in.

 

Tim Homer - Lead Engineer

Desert Data Recovery

t...@desertdatarecovery.com

www.desertdatarecovery.com

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[wayne horner]

as I understand it...

diskpart clean erase the partition tables and takes minutes

diskpart clean all - erases every sector and takes hours per TB

Alandata Data Recovery -  (949)287-3282  
"Cleanroom Data Recovery of RAID, VMware, Network Attached Storage, Linux, Tape, Disk, Forensics"

www.AlanData.com   www.AlanDataRecovery.com

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[pbzcbf...@gmail.com]

The user explicitly stated that they did not perform a "clean all".

[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

The complexity of a fix isn't so much the issue when the time involved is such a disproportionate component, A WD slowfix isn't exactly a complex or time consuming operation either.

All devices coming in here get imaged to some degree, the last thing id want is for the only copy of the data to go missing being returned to the client in the post.  As such there's no avoiding the 24 hours to make the image and the 2 weeks of 20TB storage space whilst a drive (even the original) is returned to the client and checked, that's a constant even if you kick it off onto the ewaste PC in the corner of the office to do it. 

Is my thinking outdated for higher capacity drives and do others believe just fixing  and returning as the client wants is worth the higher risk and obviously lower reward.

[pbzcbf...@gmail.com]

Of course, I can understand your points, but you need to see this case from the client's perspective. Moreover, you need to ask yourself how other users would view that thread. I would argue that it's a very bad look.

Perhaps you could offer your clients the option of accepting certain risks, as long as they are made aware of them. You wouldn't need to hold a backup of their data, and you wouldn't need to supply a replacement HDD. You might want to limit such options to walk-in customers to avoid issues due to damage or loss in transit. Basically, for these trivial cases, you could offer the same level of service and responsibility as a computer shop.

[Desert Data Recovery]

Sorry but that is missing the whole point. I have not seen the Reddit thread so cannot comment on specifics, but the last thing I do is offer the same service as a computer shop. My clients either accept the quote (which I hope is reasonable) or they go elsewhere. We do not compromise, ever. It's just the way we work. 

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[jol qwerr]

explaining the client to take "some risks" is only good on papar

usally they don't understand the full extent of the meaning taking "some risks"

and when it ends up bad they blame you

furthermore since its a case in the USA where everyone is suing everyone on everything it will most likely end up in court

n with some twisted arguments he might also win the case n will end up badly for the DR company/firm

[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

The optics are bad as only a single aspect of the recovery process is being compared against a holistic data recovery service.  It's comparing chalk and cheese.

Historically capacities like those in the post 16-20TB came in as 4 drive arrays which could be processed in parallel,  most of us I imagine are setup so the time aspect of the job could then largely be absorbed in a way that just can't be on a single drive.  If that was the case for the  poster then the 400 he suggested the job was worth would have been reasonable. But as a single drive it's going to take at least 3 times longer and there's nothing we can do to change that.  3x400 is the 1200 he had been quoted by Gillware.

It really is too risky not to take device images, you can have clients sign whatever as soon as there's a problem the charge backs and paypal disputes will get filed.  It's expensive for retail to scale the pricing in a linear manner on the high capacities drives,  I wouldn't pay 4 figures for  a logical recovery either but  they're considerably more costly to deal with to. Someone in the chain has to stand the extra costs.   

[Eastcoast Data Recovery]

Yes, definitely.  

Forgive the length, but it's got me thinking and its helped me form in my mind what I would do in these cases, which although rare do occur.

I would rather turn away jobs if a customer insists on a way, typically as they want to make it quick or cheaper that goes against all that I have learnt, which is the cautious and safer way.   I wouldn't accept these jobs and it makes me wonder if this is why Rossman turned it down.

For firms that want to do this, then it's up to them.  I assume they will get the necessary disclaimers signed and their backs covered.

Should a customer want this, and accepts the risks and it goes well great for them as they got what they want. 

But what will that mean for the credibility of the business.  Will taking more risks start being an option?  What happens when/ if it doesn't work out?

Moving away from lawsuits, we are all just a few bad reviews from a tipping point, especially with the state of the general economy - at least in the UK.  

I have seen plenty of cases where a drive is on its last legs turns up as cleaned and it might be possible to "restore" but in all likelihood will just cause more damage.  

I believe as professionals we shouldn't offer any short cuts.

Instead I could  suggest they post on the forums where they may find helpful advice like the OP. 

 But in all reality i would probably say "it's not possible" for us to for professional reasons.

I understand how that can sound but I would rather take a consistent professional approach, rather offer to be flexible on my standards for some customers who want us to try something that we consider risky. 

 Like the case of the OP, if it's a risk they are willing to take, then it should be their risk and they should do it themselves.

This is my opinion and I would welcome other for theirs.

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[Eastcoast Data Recovery]

Sorry Mike , I see your point here regarding time and costs dealing with larger capacity drive which we know are going to be the mainstream moving forward.  

Thankfully most of my cases top out at 2-5TB. 

I guess its going to need to be a  price the customer pays that is acceptable, but will likely pitch it in a non linear way. 

Say between these capacities 5-10TB this much and over 10-16 and so on.

A customer might not understand and i guess some discussion or compromise might have to be reached that Is acceptable to all.

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[Luke Coughey]

If there are no physical issues, I charge $500 CAD for a basic recovery with a 50% up front attempt fee.

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[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

How do you price it though Louis  ?  Per TB / flat fee / only after evaluation, do you or should you even discount if it's a quick fix?  Per TB charges add up very quickly on high capacity media, I wouldn't have sent it me to recover at my prices. Grabbing a couple of GB or even a TBs is one thing but 16TB is a good day on the kit. 

Franc raised very good points (annoying when he does that :) ) this is potentially a 5 minute job for someone who knows what they're doing. If everything is as the client reports, no real need to image or even recover files. 3 clicks in DMDE and you're done, even If you image it for safety sake any old crap off the scrap pile ca be used to do it there's no need to tie up pc3K.

The poster bought it to reddit as one of the US nations had quoted 1200 + return media after they were expecting 400. 

My take was to  treat like any other logical recovery, image, charge by the TB and discount if there's no ball ache, expect a grateful client for the discount at the end. 

[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

How would you price it though -  Ad hoc per TB, flat fee, post recovery discount , don't until after evaluation ? Per TB adds up very quickly I wouldn't have sent it here to be recovered based on my list prices but recovering 16TB is 24 hours on the tools regardless.  

That type of client is always a pain to deal with but in this case they were correct and it was a simple DMDE 3 click fix and I think they'd have been justifiably disgruntled at a 4 figure recovery invoice plus recovery media.  

On Thursday 30 May 2024 at 12:18:40 UTC+1 in...@eastcoastdatarecovery.com wrote:

[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

I see google has released my posts - bit late now as the conversation has moved on.

[pbzcbf...@gmail.com]

When I was in business, I always tried to accommodate the customer's requirements. In this case he just wanted a professional to repair his deleted partition table. That is an easy job. Instead, in this thread we have people who are trying to impose their business practices on the customer. He doesn't want a clone, he doesn't want his data on a second drive, he just wants his drive returned to the state that is was in prior to his misadventure. To me, the proper approach is to fix the partition table and make the customer aware that any other drive problems are his responsibility.

That said, I'm wondering how many DR professionals are actually capable of performing this simple task. I would guess that maybe only 1% could do it. In fact, I notice that the user said that Rossmann couldn't do it, not that they wouldn't do it. AIUI, none of the pro tools (R-Studio, UFS Explorer, GetDataBack) will write to the source drive, so this means they would need to use something like DMDE or Testdisk, or they could manually repair the metadata with a disc editor.

The end result of this case is that the customer has lost any respect he may have had for the DR profession, and he is probably wondering whether his local mum-and-dad computer shop would have been a better proposition. A good reputation is hard to win but easy to lose.

[wayne horner]

I usually fix these by hand with a hex editor. 

In the remote case I would offer to dial in and take a look. 

I would have charged a couple of hours consulting to look and attempt repair. 

Probably 350.

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[Luke Coughey]

I appreciate what you are saying Franc, but the whole point of being a data recovery professional is to protect the data at all times. We have all learned either by personal experience or through the experience of someone else that cases where we cut corners tend to cost us more in the long run, especially when they go wrong.

In the case of the OP, he is asking for a service that is not typically offered by data recovery professionals. It is, for the same reason, that when someone calls me about getting data recovered from a physically damaged cell phone, I tell them that they don't want to seek a data recovery professional and really want a cell phone repair centre.  In both cases, the phone will need to be repaired, but the odds are, the data recovery lab will chairge several times the amount of the cell phone repair centre.  And, when the job is done, the repair centre will return a working phone that can be used or sold while the data recovery lab will likely return the phone back to its original state.  This isn't the case for all data recovery labs who offer cell phone recoveries, but quite typical for most, I do believe.

I admit that I'm very rusty on my manual rebuild of an MBR and haven't actually spent the time to even try to manually rebuild a GPT now that there are tools like DMDE and even testdisk to automate the process.  Recovery programs like R-Studio and UFS do allow writing to the drive, but they aren't designed with the intent of fixing or replacing a partition table.

Luke Coughey

CEO

Recovery Force Inc

866-750-3169

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[pbzcbf...@gmail.com]

AIUI, it is a common practice to offer a cash-strapped customer the option of a non-invasive recovery when the preferred approach would be to replace the heads. Some DR pros will even use risky fly height adjustments in such cases. Of course, the customer is made aware of the risk, and he bears the responsibility.

How is that any different to the present case?

[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

@Luke - nice take on it.

@Franc - The clone need not be for the client, it's for our safety. If we mess it up / there's a problem / additional damage then we're obligated at least morally if not otherwise to resolve the issue.  The situation differs from dubious head tweaks as with those the data is not available without intervention either via tweaks or hsa replacement. For logical recovery like this it is, the client can either DIY or pay someone for their time the risk is entirely avoidable by making an image first. 

Id have no issue with providing the client with their original drive having had the partition fixed exactly as requested,  it's the really just the same as cloning a damaged windows system drive for them. But in both cases I'd want an image secured on my server of their drive as it was before any modification. Lower capacity drives / data areas and Id just absorb the extra couple of hours no problem, it's transparent to the client, everyone is happy. An18Tb safety net requires a contribution from the client when it take 24 hours to make.

[pbzcbf...@gmail.com]

The other thing I don't like, especially as it applies to the present case, is the fact that you guys retain ownership of the client's drive. In this case the drive is perfectly functional, yet even when the drive has been reduced to bits and pieces, the client has still been charged for those pieces, so from a moral standpoint they belong to him.

Or am I wrong, and do you people return a drive that was the object of a purely logical recovery?

[t...@desertdatarecovery.com]

Not sure where you get that from. Again I have not see this Reddit post so cannot comment to the content, but as an example we do not retain clients drives automatically. If they want them back they get them back.

 

We do not charge for parts upfront, we only charge for successful recoveries so the client does not pay us for parts. They pay a recovery fee at the end of the recovery. And logical/physical recovery it makes no difference, if the client wants their drive back they get it back.

 

Tim Homer - Lead Engineer

Desert Data Recovery

t...@desertdatarecovery.com

www.desertdatarecovery.com

 

From: datarecovery...@googlegroups.com <datarecovery...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of pbzcbf...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2024 12:36 PM
To: DataRecoveryCertification <datarecovery...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: High capacity single drives

 

The other thing I don't like, especially as it applies to the present case, is the fact that you guys retain ownership of the client's drive. In this case the drive is perfectly functional, yet even when the drive has been reduced to bits and pieces, the client has still been charged for those pieces, so from a moral standpoint they belong to him.

 

Or am I wrong, and do you people return a drive that was the object of a purely logical recovery?

 

 

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[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

Under normal circumstances everything goes back to the client here regardless of recovery level even if it's a bag of bits, I don't want to deal with the ewaste,. The exception being my 120 quid service where the additional postage costs would mean having to raise the price. Even with that If the client wanted to pay the postage it would be sent back.  Whilst most clients don't want their failed drives in cases like this one it's pretty obvious it would be wanted and it would have significant value. 

I'm sure I've seen some labs that keep them though and others who include a nominal credit towards the recovery cost if allowed to  keep them.  

[Daniel Grevan]

Mike, do you have the thread's link?

[Mike - USBRecovery.co.uk]

Here you go   https://redd.it/1d2ac5g

[Daniel Grevan]

Thanks