DataPortability receives Cease and Desist from RedHat Inc
Chris Saad
DataPortability has sent us a Cease and Desist letter regarding the
DataPortability logo and its alleged similarity to the Fedora logo.
Here is a snippet from their email:
---QUOTE
Red Hat, Inc. ("Red Hat") recently became aware that on your website,
located at http://www.dataportability.org, you are using art work that
is identical to the Fedora Infinity design logo owned by Red Hat.
Specifically, I am referring to two images on your site: the green and
white logo, as well as the blue and white logo.
---END QUOTE
The Fedora logo can be seen here: http://www.linuxactionshow.com/images/fedora.jpg
The DataPortability logo can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sexyseo/2179140560/
In the interests of transparency and community participation - I
wanted to bring this to the community's attention and ask for your
advice and input. To that end I have a few questions for you:
1. Do you think that this is a legitimate claim by RedHat?
2. If you believe that the logo is indeed in conflict, can you suggest
(by actually creating an image rather than just describing it) a minor
tweak/change to the logo that would make it more distinguishable
Your comments, thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Lee Dryburgh
claimed "identical" nature.
The '8' thing is similar but that is a common symbol and the data port
one filles it differently. Then it is set in a completely different
body surrounding it.
That '8' infinity part they speak of I see quite a lot on celtic designs.
I could understand if the data port group was issuing an OS, that
potentially there could be a question or two raised but this is
absurd.
Regards
Lee
/ Skype: leedyburgh
\ Emerging Comms Conference
/ March 12-14 - www.eCommMedia.com
Richard Pendergast
side, I'd say there is definitely a potential conflict, and while I do
not agree with their statement that the DP log is "identical to the
Fedora Infinity design logo", it is close enought that there is an
issue to be resolved.
As to tweaks, I am at work, but will see if I can put something
together in MSPaint if you are just looking for suggestions :)
mary hodder
Well.. the logos are similar, and if it were parody or commentary on
Fedora and RedHat,
it would be fine, esp because DP is a non-profit and isn't doing
business commercially with it.
But I can't see how DP could claim that the d-logo is parody or
commentary, and I think they
are right, it could be confusing and the point of trademark is to
keep confusion away from the public.
I'd say you'll probably have to change it but maybe you could
negotiate with them, bring them into
the fold?
Sorry about that.
anders conbere
That is... I could make campbell's lawnmowers and not conflict with
campbell's soup, these are two unrelated items and confusion is
unlikely. Similarly I think there is very little risk of confusion
between dataportabilty and an operating system.
but maybe trademarks work differently for logo's (I don't think they do).
~ Anders
anders conbere
>
>
> Well.. the logos are similar, and if it were parody or commentary on
> Fedora and RedHat,
> it would be fine, esp because DP is a non-profit and isn't doing
> business commercially with it.
not to quote Wikipedia or anything but
"The extent to which a trademark owner may prevent unauthorized use of
trademarks which are the same as or similar to its trademark depends
on various factors such as whether its trademark is registered, the
similarity of the trademarks involved, the similarity of the products
and/or services involved, and whether the owner's trademark is well
known."
so it seems to me we have a few questions to answers
1) are the trademarks similar?
yes almost certainly
2) are the products and services similar?
Not really at all (they involve computers but that's about it)
3) is the trademark well known?
Well...none of us noticed it. The mark is probably well known to
fedora users!
~ Anders
Lee Dryburgh
had Cease and Desist notices for various matters before - I'd not
move. The offerings are in different categories and the logos are not
confusingly similar.
But there is a quick fix - flip the infinity part by 90deg. So if you
wish to avoid more letters just do that.
Regards
Lee
/ Skype: leedyburgh
\ Emerging Comms Conference
/ March 12-14 - www.eCommMedia.com
Lee Dryburgh
Register, Giga Om and Tech Crunch?
Regards
Lee
/ Skype: leedyburgh
\ Emerging Comms Conference
/ March 12-14 - www.eCommMedia.com
Phillip Rhodes
> In the interests of transparency and community participation - I
> wanted to bring this to the community's attention and ask for your
> advice and input. To that end I have a few questions for you:
>
> 1. Do you think that this is a legitimate claim by RedHat?
>
vs. the teardrop thing and the fill
of the infinity symbol are both different. In particular, the fill on
the DP infinity symbol doesn't
give the visual effect of an 'f' character.
That said, legitimate in this context reduces to what would occur (or
not) in a given courtroom on a given day.
If it went far enough to be litigated, a court might find them to be
conflicting or not. It's almost
impossible to predict. :-(
However, they are just similar enough, that I could see how *somebody*
(rightly or wrongly) could find them
to conflict. I think we would be better off just changing the DP logo
and not making a fuss over it.
> 2. If you believe that the logo is indeed in conflict, can you suggest
> (by actually creating an image rather than just describing it) a minor
> tweak/change to the logo that would make it more distinguishable
>
Sorry, no artistic talent here. :-(
TTYL,
--
Phillip Rhodes
Chief Architect - OpenQabal
https://openqabal.dev.java.net
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/philliprhodes
Jacob Chapel
official statement or reaction to it and this is more an internal
discussion on what should be done.
Jacob Chapel
http://dataportability.org
http://practicalportability.org
Richard Pendergast
1. Could we get away with it?
2. Do we want the bad PR associated with the fight?
The PR element is a nasty one. Why show ourselves to be hardasses? We
are trying to portray ourselves as good for the community. This may be
a necessary evil...
Marshall Kirkpatrick
Good luck,everyone.
Marshall
Marshall Kirkpatrick
Consultant at http://marshallk.com
Lead blogger at http://readwriteweb.com
Skype: marshallkirkpatrick GTalk: emailmarshall AIM: marshallkirkpatr ym: marshallkirkpatrick (AIM and YM are mobile IM friendly)
mary hodder
even if it's not something you intend to fight.
Pls also submit it to chillingeffects.org.
It's important to track these things and make them visible.
I would be polite, but simply state what has happened and say that
you are considering what the right thing to do is.
mary
anders conbere
<richard.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are two considerations here, not one.
> 1. Could we get away with it?
> 2. Do we want the bad PR associated with the fight?
>
> The PR element is a nasty one. Why show ourselves to be hardasses? We
> are trying to portray ourselves as good for the community. This may be
> a necessary evil...
But you're spinning it wrong :) We aren't being hardasses, we're the
helpless open standards fighters that are being pounced on by a cold
heartless corporation (not my real opinion).
I think the real answer is that we should talk to the folks at redhat,
find what they want, see how we can walk away amicably, and if they're
not cooperative we should decide what to do then.
~ Anders
Phillip Rhodes
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
> DataPortability has sent us a Cease and Desist letter regarding the
> DataPortability logo and its alleged similarity to the Fedora logo.
> Here is a snippet from their email:
>
>
mean, did they
try a polite request to change the logo first, then send the C&D? Or did
they send in the
lawyers as the first step?
Mike Reynolds
differences.
Fedora's image is infinity/8 with "f" shaded, all within a quote-type
structure.
DataPortability is infinity/8 with "d" shaded, all within a briefcase.
If a person were to trace the "8"...
... they could trace the Fedora "8" forever without stopping
... for DP, they would have to make their pencil jump/swerve given the
horizontal portion is a tad askew
The Fedora "8" involves two perfect circles, whereas the DP "8" are
imperfect circle-like shapes.
Said another way, there are strong linear elements to the two bits of
the DP "8", while Fedora is completely circular.
The slope of the Fedora and DP infinity/8 is the same slope as
Fujitsu's environmentality emblem:
http://www.fujitsu.com/img/ECO/top/emblem.gif
On that note, clearly there are an infinity number of slopes/
rotations, but this 45 degree positioning is the most obvious
positioning of infinity (other than the pure horizontal).
fusi...@gmail.com
employees I know. As a fedora dev this is BS. IANAL but AFAIK the
infinity symbol cannot be copyrighted as it would fall under prior
art. I'm trying to get clarification from the asshats over at redhat
legal.
-t
twitter: fusion94
On Feb 21, 4:54 pm, Chris Saad <chris.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
> DataPortability has sent us a Cease and Desist letter regarding the
> DataPortability logo and its alleged similarity to the Fedora logo.
> Here is a snippet from their email:
>
> ---QUOTE
>
> Red Hat, Inc. ("Red Hat") recently became aware that on your website,
Chris Saad
Please note that as a community group who's goal is to give something
of value to the internet, we don't want this to turn mean or litigious
- the best possible outcome is something that both communities/
organizations can agree on.
To any Fedora people who might come over due to Fusion's post, and to
the DP community, please remember we can disagree without being
disagreeable.
Thank you all for your insightful comments so far. I am sure we can
work this out and get back to helping to raise awareness of
DataPortability technologies and initiatives.
Cheers,
Chris
Aaron Cheung
Me a Fedora user for years, the DP logo did not recall me to the Fedora logo;
If decide to fight, need to and better do consult the trademark lawyers before responding;
But the larger issue being, since the logo, or rather, the badge with the logo, is meant to be
carried on external sites other than the DataPortability.org itself to show their support for dp,
complications arise from supporter sites whether they'd want to carry a badge of IP issues.
Aaron Cheung
YDrive Limited
Des
At any rate it's good to be noticed!
Navarr Barnier
and the rebuttal to it first:
I'm assuming that Redhat has basically declared that they don't like the
DataPortability workgroup, or they really wouldn't care. If anyone at
Redhat would like to dispute this, please do it in a non-flaming fashion.
Personally, I don't think it's nice to attack people who you should hold as
friends.
Secondly, there are many noticeable differences even to the un-trained eye
when a close look is taken:
- The DataPortability Logo is generally encased in a briefcase, whereas the
Fedora Infinity is in a teardrop.
- The DataPortability Logo uses a less-circular pattern for the two sides,
using what would be defined simply as square-ish shapes with large circular
corners, whereas the Fedora Infinity Logo uses more perfect circle-ellipse
shapes.
- The DataPortability Logo fill pattern is the bottom portion (constructing
the base of the future, if you will ;)) whereas the Fedora Infinity Logo
uses a fill pattern to make an "f" shape.
- The DataPortability Logo is generally displayed in Green, whereas the
Fedora Infinity Logo is a Deep, lovely, Blue colour.
- DataPortability is a workgroup dealing with Internet Standards, whereas
the Fedora Project is a Free, Open-Source, Linux Operating System project.
This list of claims should be enough to satisfy the fact that there is no
need to change the DataPortability Logo.
As for the Blessing? More attention for the DataPortability Workgroup! ^_^
-Navarr Barnier
m Nav...@gtaero.net
f http://www.gtaero.net/foaf.rdf
w http://www.gtaero.net/
b http://tech.gtaero.net/
-----Original Message-----
From: dataportabi...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:dataportabi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Saad
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:54 PM
To: DataPortability.Public.General
Subject: [DataPortability-Public] DataPortability receives Cease and Desist
from RedHat Inc
TheSocialNetworker
at the emblems. Whether we agree with them or not, they could make it
costly and bothersome. We faced this before in our company with a
barely similar name in the clothing versus out IT industry. It was
cheaper and easier to "comply" enough to not have a battle.
Paul Lindner
if you don't protect it you can lose it. Ask anyone who makes blue
jeans with a swoop on the back pocket.
I'm an active Fedora user and even maintain some packages -- I noticed
the similarity when I first saw the dp logo weeks ago.
Get over it, tweak the logo, move on.
Now does anyone want to tackle my Foaf <--> opensocial question :)
-- Paul
> From: dataportabi...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:dataportabi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Saad
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:54 PM
> To: DataPortability.Public.General
> Subject: [DataPortability-Public] DataPortability receives Cease and Desist
> from RedHat Inc
>
>
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
> DataPortability has sent us a Cease and Desist letter regarding the
> DataPortability logo and its alleged similarity to the Fedora logo.
> Here is a snippet from their email:
>
>
> Red Hat, Inc. ("Red Hat") recently became aware that on your website,
> located at http://www.dataportability.org, you are using art work that
> is identical to the Fedora Infinity design logo owned by Red Hat.
> Specifically, I am referring to two images on your site: the green and
> white logo, as well as the blue and white logo.
>
>
> The Fedora logo can be seen here:
> http://www.linuxactionshow.com/images/fedora.jpg
> The DataPortability logo can be seen here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sexyseo/2179140560/
>
> In the interests of transparency and community participation - I
> wanted to bring this to the community's attention and ask for your
> advice and input. To that end I have a few questions for you:
>
> 1. Do you think that this is a legitimate claim by RedHat?
>
> 2. If you believe that the logo is indeed in conflict, can you suggest
> (by actually creating an image rather than just describing it) a minor
> tweak/change to the logo that would make it more distinguishable
>
> Your comments, thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
>
>
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "DataPortability.Public.General" group.
> To post to this group, send email to dataportabi...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dataportability-p...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dataportability-public?hl=en
> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
>
--
Paul Lindner ||||| | | | | | | | | |
lin...@inuus.com
Robyn Tippins
Not sure how I feel about this one, but to people unfamiliar with the case, I think they will assume that it was borrowed, as people in this community tend to be tech savvy and would be aware of the Fedora logo.
I guess my input is, yeah I think we could fight it but would it be worth the effort and would it help us in any way to piss off Fedora? I will say that I hope they came to us with a friendly convo before calling in the lawyers...
Robyn
Robyn Tippins
408-718-0886
PM, Developer Tools Yahoo! Platforms
Sleepyblogger.com | Gamingandtech.com
joe lackner
i'd be glad to render some new logo concepts for this project. you
know, to prepare for the worst! =)
-joe lackner
new media ninja | http://celsius.ws
Brady
more cases than most people ever realize (even to transnational
corporations, see the Quark logo debacle of 2005). Many shapes and
symbols have been rehashed and reused countless times. The reality,
however, is that trademark owners do have an obligation to protect
their marks, or risk losing them.
I see a variety of steps that we could take going forward:
1) Modify the DP logo to comply with the C&D.
2) Reach a compromise with RedHat.
3) Redesign the DP logo.
Either way, the publicity doesn't hurt.
-Brady
Robyn Tippins
I'd love to see what you come up with... I love the smother earth logo.
Robyn
danielabarbosa
buy it.
@Phillip Rhodes this C&D was the first notification i believe and i am
fascinated by the fact that in our obviously open dialogue community
that a legal letter was the first interaction that Red Hat chose to
pursue
@Aaron Cheung makes a good point in regards to the fact that the DP
logo will be used outside of DataPortability.org on other sites that
support DP.
When someone lands on Dataportabilty.org is is OBVIOUS that it is not
a fedora site- but a simple logo in blue without the words
dataportability on the bottom of a page could be read incorrectly by
the site visitor that the site supported fedora . HOWEVER the infinity
loop within a briefcase in green with the DataPortability term
included wouldn't be confused.
I think a discussion with Red Hat to discuss details and a potential
compromise would be the most appropriate
Gordon Whiting
showing the worst of the negative effects of these types of conflicts:
consumption of bandwidth that should be used in other (productive)
ways. In terms of what might happen in a real legal fight, this entire
email thread would be used against us, as many DP-ers admit seeing a
similarity between the marks.
Time to mod the logo and move on.
Gordon Whiting
Richard Pendergast
comes form a guy posting on techcrunch.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/02/21/logo-war-red-hat-takes-on-dataportability/#comment-2002358
"...trademarks become invalid if the owner doesn't watch for similar
marks used by others, and send them cease and desists. So all
trademark owners who can afford lawyers will send out multiple cease
and desists *daily* - Red Hat does, and so does every other major tech
company, and every other major company *period*. It's not a big event
when it happens. There is someone whose job is to sit there all day
sending these things, at every large company in the world."
"...a cease and desist like this is not a "lawsuit" - it's an email.
The decision to send it would normally come from one person, it's not
some kind of major company initiative or strategic decision. The
person sending it almost certainly has no idea what DataPortability
is, their job is to just look at the two logos and send an email if
they might be confusingly similar."
put very simply if red hat do not defend their trademark they lose it,
and proving reactionary by shifting the discussion into the public
domain does not reflect well on dp. internal discussion like this
should not lead to external incitement, otherwise we will need to be
careful about what we post internally to the group.
while i do not necessarily agree with the practice, its a legal
requirement, and in red hats position id do exactly the same thing.
the reality is that given a chance to discuss the situation red hat
would most likely have come to the party.
ive now seen at least 2 major posts denouncing red hat, and am a bit
worried that this is no longer a discussion, but a slinging match.
while red hat are the big gun here and dp are most certainly the
underdog, the passionate reactionary posts appearing are certainly not
helping the situation.
chill out guys. were talking about a logo. a discussion and a few
tweaks will settle the dispute, but it will take a lot more to salvage
the reputation of dp if we become seen as a bunch of reactionary
cyberbullies.
chris did the right thing in asking the groups. do we now show him
that was a mistake, and that the big decisions should be handled
offline behind closed doors?
François Dongier
Also, the homepage of the Fedora project states that "The Fedora Project is out front for you, leading the advancement of free, open software and content." This, in my view, is not totally unrelated to the DP project. So there may be room for confusion and I believe we do have to find, with Fedora, a solution to this (relatively small) problem.
Just some remarks comparing the two logos:
1) The small Fedora Logo appearing on top of the Fedora project homepage (http://fedoraproject.org/en/index) looks like a letter "f" inside a blue circle. This one doesn't really seem (to me) to conflict with the DP Logo.
2) An animated gif version of the Fedora Logo (http://fedoraproject.org/en/static/images/banners/f8-banner-animation.gif) appears just below the first one. At some point of the animation, it does include a larger pic that does look similar to the DP logo.
3) This animated Fedora Logo evokes an infinity sign, while the DP Logo doesn't. I always saw the DP logo as an imbrication of letters D and P. If we had wanted to have it evoke infinity, we would have made the "tilted 8" rounder.
Chris Saad
So I think the consensus/summary from all the blog comments and posts here on the thread are:
1. The logos have at least one similar element
2. The alleged TM infringement is questionable and could be argued
3. DataPortability should not waste time, effort or mind share on the battle
4. We do not want IP concerns around the badge since we hope that others will use it
5. We should tweak/adjust the logo to avoid a confrontation with Red Hat
6. Let's get the logo changed enough to allay their fears.
I propose we go back a step to the top logo seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/syphonbandrew/2077819290/in/pool-592496@N21
However we use the rounded font that makes up the infinitity symbol.
So D P written next to each other using the very rounded font.
Thoughts?
Chris
Chris Saad
FaradayMedia.com - For Audiences of One
Particls.com - Are You Paying Attention?
Engagd.com - The Open Attention Platform
Media2.0Workgroup.org - Social, Democratic, Distributed
APML.org - The OPML of Attention
DataPortability.org - The next frontier; Data
Lee Dryburgh
Just to double check before you commit to the below - are you sure you
do not want the likes of TechCrunch holding a logo competition? If it
was me I would do that as it drives great publicity to the group and
will get you talented artwork free of charge.
Regards
Lee
/ Skype: leedyburgh
\ Emerging Comms Conference
/ March 12-14 - www.eCommMedia.com
On 22/02/2008, Chris Saad <chris...@gmail.com> wrote:
Julian Bond
>Ok guys
>
>So I think the consensus/summary from all the blog comments and posts
>here on the thread are:
>
>1. The logos have at least one similar element
>2. The alleged TM infringement is questionable and could be argued
>3. DataPortability should not waste time, effort or mind share on the
>battle
>4. We do not want IP concerns around the badge since we hope that
>others will use it
>5. We should tweak/adjust the logo to avoid a confrontation with Red
>Hat
>6. Let's get the logo changed enough to allay their fears.
>
>I propose we go back a step to the top logo seen here:
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/syphonbandrew/2077819290/in/pool-592496@N21
>
>However we use the rounded font that makes up the infinitity symbol.
>So D P written next to each other using the very rounded font.
Yes to all that. But I like the one Bottom Right.
--
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Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
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