Re: Revit - it's becoming the monopolistic scourge of the earth!

[Mark F. Madura]

Hello Chad,

 

Mark Toce may have some tips to offer. However, as far as I know, even the latest editions of AutoCAD cannot read a Revit file. There is a 20 page Autodesk publication about using AutoCAD and Revit together but the relationship is one way (DWG -> Revit).

 

The bigger issue, (i.e. Autodesk Monopoly) is the result of complacency among design professionals. They accepted the 800 lb. gorilla long ago. Now Autodesk only needs to take advantage of the opportunity. Their dominance is bolstered by our own federal government by specifying DWG and 'BIM' formats; while considered 'standard' are actually proprietary.

 

The FTC does not see the need to investigate Autodesk because in their opinion, Autodesk is not doing anything illegal, even though they have an effective monopoly.

 

This will only change when enough consumers like you complain to their state reps, vendors, and colleagues.

 

Thank You,

 

MFM

-----Original Message-----
From: "Chad Sutter" <des...@midrivers.com>
To: "DataCad Tech Support" <techs...@datacad.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:18:34 -0700
Subject: Revit - it's becoming the monopolistic scourge of the earth!

DataCAD Wizards:

 

I’ve been using DataCAD for two decades now and it has done everything I needed it to do 99% of the time.  We are a production based office putting most of our CAD time into working drawings/Construction Documents.  The tide is turning and we are seeing more demand for renderings and 3D modeling; for that we are using SketchUp almost exclusively.  We then start from zero on design development and transition into CD’s with DataCAD.  Typically we don’t blend SketchUp & DataCAD files or drawings one way or the other- we keep them completely separate.  It works for us as we have done few presentation drawings and renderings to date, though I can see the change coming.  It’s here actually.

 

That’s not really why I’m writing though.  I am writing about Revit and all the damned files that are starting to be only in Revit formats.  To start with most of the suppliers and manufacturers are switching the CAD files they make available to Revit based formats.  They’re completely useless to us using DataCAD and probably other non-AutoCAD/Revit programs, too.  I’m sure that is Autodesk’s master scheme.  It’s really starting to be a problem as I work on elevations, details and sections where I want to include a product in the drawings.  I spend the time to hunt down a product on the internet, at some company website, and not only are the CAD files getting hard to find, they’re now in Revit format.  It’s becoming a monopoly and unfortunately the Federal and State governments are driving it as much as industry.  BIM and Revit are neatly conjoined at the hip and are steering our profession into compliance through mandated CAD formats and document requirements.

 

Can we expect any support in DataCAD for Revit files in nearby updates or releases, or can you recommend a conversion program so we can make simpler 2D files in dwg or dxf format that we can import into DataCAD?

 

Thank you,

 

 

 

Chad Sutter

Stevenson Design

 

 

 

[Robert Scott]

Well, this should make for good Holiday reading ;) 

No comments from this cad jockey other than as a CEO I might have crafted my wording a little different rather than labeling my user base as complacent.

Robert

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Regards,

Robert Scott

Robert Scott Residential Design
Battle Creek, MI
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[Mark F. Madura]

I certainly meant no offense to our customers and given that the user base for AutoCAD outnumbers DataCAD probably 100:1 I was referring primarily to non-DataCAD users. At any rate, here is the original response I received from the FTC:

 

"Mr. Madura,

 

Thank you for your message.

 

I sympathize with your concerns, and have little doubt that Autodesk may be a monopolist in some markets.  They certainly appear to be pricing like one.  The antitrust issue, however, is whether Autodesk has broken the law by obtaining or maintaining its monopoly through anticompetitive conduct.

 

The complete analysis of that question is complicated; however, two things should be apparent to every CAD market participant:

(1) CAD designing is a network market. Network markets, by their nature, eventually tip to monopoly, in the sense that they eventually coalesce around a common interoperability format.  In other words, where interoperability is crucial, SOMETHING is going to be the dominant industry standard; and 

(2) The current interoperability standard, de facto, is the DWG file format as dictated by Autodesk.  

 

Present-day antitrust laws cannot unilaterally free a market from a monopolist that the market has legally (though unwittingly) anointed, nor would intervention in this case make a long-term difference without a viable alternative interoperability standard to which CAD users and consumers may turn.  Therefore, Autodesk’s dominance (and the resulting high prices) will likely continue unless and until CAD market participants—both CAD consumers and CAD software competitors—coalesce around an alternative interoperability standard (preferably one that is non-proprietary, open source, or formally standardized and thereby subject to a standard-setting body’s IPR policies).  To the extent you wish to free the CAD market from Autodesk dominance, I recommend focusing your efforts in that direction.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark Taylor

Attorney

Federal Trade Commission

Bureau of Competition

Anticompetitive Practices Division

(202) 326-2287"

 

So my main point is that any significant change will have to be driven by the industry professionals that are adversely-affected by Autodesk's 'dominance'.

[Mark Wilhelm]

Mark,

Thanks for sharing this FTC message, and I agree with your original analysis of the situation in your note to Chad.  What att'y Taylor seems to have missed is that governmental determination that design firms may use only one CAD system for government projects is effectively institutionalizing the monopolistic position of Autodesk, and neutralizes any effort we of the "CAD market" might make to introduce an alternative.

It's not clear to me whether you have any problem with .dwg being the interoperability standard.  Clearly, we have gotten by with that for some years with only minor inconvenience.  But what is really troubling is the BIM/Revit model, which is in no way an interoperability standard.  Even if you, DataCad, were to decode that drawing file format, it would not much matter because there seems no way in which we, using Dcad, or any other CAD platform, could work with the data.  If, as you said earlier, it is not possible to export Revit files down to .dwg (and I'm not sure you are right about that, as a firm I work with has repeatedly abandoned Revit for most detailing and completed the work in Acad, I thought by exporting to .dwg), then we are effectively excluded from interoperability with Revit.  That seems to me to be the real threat.  Revit has plenty of problems, but I don't think competition is one of them.

Best, and happiest of holidays to all,
Mark Wilhelm

 

[Mark F. Madura]

"It's not clear to me whether you have any problem with .dwg being the interoperability standard."

 

Hello Mark W.,

 

 

I don't have a problem with DWG being a standard for data exchange, but I do have a problem with it being proprietary in this context. With our Government's help, DWG has become a 'crown jewel' for Autodesk to the tune of 2.5 Billion per year.

 

DWG is not an openly-published format. The Open Design Alliance reverse-engineers the DWG format at considerable expense (paid for by Autodesk's competitors). So much so, in my opinion, the Alliance no longer has a compelling reason to continue to put pressure on government agencies.

 

There is a RealDWG Toolkit available, but only to non-competitors. One exception I am aware of is an agreement between Autodesk and Bentley but I suspect that has to due with the fact that our military 'prefers' Bentley products while our government agencies 'prefer' Autodesk products.

 

When we originally joined the Alliance as a founding member in 1998, Autodesk was also invited to join. However, they declined. Around the same time when AutoCAD 14 was introduced, Autodesk incorporated an encrypted portion of the DWG file header to designate 'genuine' Autodesk product origin. So when one of your colleagues opens a DWG file in AutoCAD that you exported from DataCAD, they get the following warning:

 

"This DWG file was saved by an application that was not developed or licensed by Autodesk. What do you want to do?

 

- Continue opening DWG file

-- Autodesk has not verified the application compatibility or integrity of this file.

 

- Cancel opening file"

 

The Alliance reverse-engineered this encryption and issued an updated toolkit so our DWG exports would be able to bypass this superfluous warning. Autodesk then sued the Alliance claiming it was a violation of copyright because their trademark was being removed from the file. They won the suit and the warning has been there ever since.

 

I find this interesting because it begs the question, who owns the drawing file? Autodesk, or the author (i.e., you the Architect)? This question was posed by the Alliance in a full-page Wall Street Journal ad; but it would seem no one has taken up the cause.

 

In a previous thread, I made a comment like "we can't even get past the friggin' pen table". This alludes to the fact that AutoCAD's pen table is encrypted, or binary (i.e., not human readable). DataCAD's on the other hand is plain text. In fact, whenever possible, we purposefully make DataCAD's support files human readable text-based files.

 

This opens the door to a free exchange of customizable drawing elements including pen tables, rendering materials, line types, hatch patterns, smart entities, and so on. I suspect the developers of AutoCAD and Revit have no interest in this, as like I said, "We can't even get past the friggin' Pen Table!"

 

MFM

[Robert Scott]

Serious question here:  Who invented the DWG/DXF format?

[Chad Sutter]

Information on file formats at Wikipedia, some include links with more info and source history.  I took the liberty of adding .aec yesterday (feel free to edit if I got it wrong):  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_file_formats

 

-Chad

 

From: Robert Scott [mailto:scottreside...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:29 AM
To: Mark F. Madura
Cc: Mark Wilhelm; Chad Sutter; DataCad Tech Support; DataCAD-DBUG
Subject: Re: DBUG> Re: Revit - it's becoming the monopolistic scourge of the earth!

 

Serious question here:  Who invented the DWG/DXF format?

[Mark F. Madura]

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Scott <scottreside...@gmail.com>
To: "Mark F. Madura" <ma...@datacad.com>
Cc: Mark Wilhelm <ma...@grazadovelleco.com>, Chad Sutter <des...@midrivers.com>,  DataCad Tech Support <techs...@datacad.com>, DataCAD-DBUG <dataca...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:29:28 -0500
Subject: Re: DBUG> Re: Revit - it's becoming the monopolistic scourge of the earth!

Serious question here:  Who invented the DWG/DXF format?

I suspect the answer lies with John Walker, co-founder of Autodesk:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/