Re: DataCAD user friendliness

[David Ramey]

I don't think DataCAD is user unfriendly at. It just has a learning curve.

Try Blender if want to see something hard to learn. It's open source and does animation.

DaveR

[Debbie at Sun Plans]

I was mainly speaking from the standpoint of my young students with one
class of 9-11th graders with a huge ability range. It was an elective meant
to be fun. When I saw them struggle with SketchUp, I was glad I did not use
DataCAD. They could find many how to videos with SketchUp to teach them
specifics and there are some very beginner SketchUp books too that we used
that gave them positive experiences early in the process. The school
allocated no money to buy any licenses of any software.

I also have had consultants interested in working with me over the years,
but when I'd tell them what software I used and they'd try DataCAD they
would say no thanks and then try to convince me to switch to theirs - mainly
Chief Architect and Softplan. There have been a few persistent ones that got
the hang of it, but that is the exception.

For me personally, I find the 2d very easy to use, but then DataCAD is all
I've known for 2d. The o2c viewer has me pulling my hair out every time I
try to use it even after looking at written input on how to use the
controls. I find it quicker to export to SketchUp to view than to use the
o2c viewer. I'm sure I will try to figure it out at some point, but it sure
would be nice if it was more intuitive. I felt the same way with the new Sun
Shader in 14. Maybe I am just not geek enough.

(Thanks for the heads up on Blender difficulty....)

Sun Plans Inc.
Debbie Coleman, Architect, AIA, LEED Green Assoc.
deb...@sunplans.com

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[Nick Pyner]

I don't see what geek has to do with o2c.

I fail to see what can be quicker or more intuitive than o2c. It is manna
from heaven for totally non-savvy, non-tech-head clients for chrissakes. All
you have to do is click the icon and wiggle the mouse. What could be easier
than that? I suppose it is possible to be missing the viewer icon bar, but
going to the toolbars menu and recovering it would have to be a better
option than going to SketchUp to view the model every time. That is utter
madness.

About the only that can happen is that you get a bad view of the model
because there is a great swag of extraneous stuff that shouldn't be on the
screen. That has very little to do with o2c and rather a lot to do with bad
management - probably in the GTV department.

I would suggest that, if you want to work in 3D, you get into o2c. It really
isn't hard.

Nick Pyner

Dee Why NSW

-----Original Message-----

I also have had consultants interested in working with me over the years,
but when I'd tell them what software I used and they'd try DataCAD they
would say no thanks and then try to convince me to switch to theirs - mainly
Chief Architect and Softplan. There have been a few persistent ones that got
the hang of it, but that is the exception.

The o2c viewer has me pulling my hair out every time I
try to use it even after looking at written input on how to use the
controls. I find it quicker to export to SketchUp to view than to use the
o2c viewer. I'm sure I will try to figure it out at some point, but it sure
would be nice if it was more intuitive. I felt the same way with the new Sun
Shader in 14. Maybe I am just not geek enough.

[David Ramey]

In DataCad you have to switch back and forth between wireframe and o2c where in SU, you can work straight from the shaded model. I have heard it from the grape vine that DataCad may use their sun sharer engine in the future to get away from o2c circa 1999.

There isn't a problem with their 2D.

DaveR

[Paul Nida]

I agree Nick, o2c is as easy to work with as anything I have seen. So if
someone is drawing their model in DCAD and switching to SU to view, that
makes no sense at all. But I can understand someone doing all of the work
in SU. Doing all of the work in SU makes sense because you make changes to
the model while looking at the rendered view. Instead of having to switch
to o2c to view it and then back to DCAD to make changes then back to o2c
to see what the changes look like. I wish DCAD woul get to the point where
you could actually work on the solid view of the model.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Nick Pyner]

I don't think that is what's going on here. I believe what is really happening is bad management and misunderstanding. There is nothing unintuitive about o2c.

 

Nick Pyner

Dee Why   NSW

-----Original Message-----
From: David Ramey [mailto:datac...@gmail.com]

In DataCad you have to switch back and forth between wireframe and o2c where in SU, you can work straight from the shaded model. I have heard it from the grape vine that DataCad may use their sun sharer engine in the future to get away from o2c circa 1999.

There isn't a problem with their 2D.

DaveR

On May 24, 2012 4:35 AM, "Nick Pyner" <npy...@tig.com.au> wrote:

I don't see what geek has to do with o2c.

[Dana Smith]

I too find building models in DataCAD too easy and forthright to start
fooling with SketchUp. I have been building everything in DC in 3D
since I started with DC7. When the O2C viewer was integrated, basically
in DC10, I quickly realized that to have any productivity, and save time
in future projects, the need was there to standardize the Pallet and
load the 256 colors with a practical set of textures, and leave a few as
just colors. There are enough colors to keep a decent number of woods,
carpets, paints, stuccoes, brick, roofs, concretes, etc. fully loaded
and always assigned to the same colors. Then as you build models, you
do not have to take the time to assign textures and fool around with the
pallet. You can name the colors to correspond to the textures so there
is no confusion as you build the models. Then, any time you use the O2C
viewer, your model is rendered in suitable textures and colors.

To keep from fooling with the pallet assignments for one of projects,
the pallet can be copied and renamed, and changes can be made to the
texture line up. Lets say you have projects that are commercial that
demand textures you don't need for residential, and vice versa, then two
separate but consistent pallets could be available and loaded as needed
before starting a new project. Then, if you have O2C-Interactive, you
can play with your model, changing the textures on any color and storing
the new "Scheme" so you can tab between a lot of different looks for a
customer, without screwing with the colors and textures in your standard
DC color pallets.

If you have a lot of surfaces, especially of different colors, SU is a
pain in the butt to make color corrections. I find, also, that the DC12
export to SU is usually incomplete or problematic in keeping all the
colors/textures consistent with the DataCAD model, and changing the
Normals and Colors takes too long to fool with. To make matters worse,
most of my models have too many entities to make the export transition
and crash at anywhere from 17% to 56%.

O2C, on the other hand, can get a little slow with a big model, and I
have had some problems with large models set on large TIN maps, with the
house populated with furnishings, that will not finish the
triangulation. But in most cases, the project will load and display
(Ray trace is another matter.)

In the long run, O2C is satisfactory and I just wish some of the
Radiocity and other render engines would either work on our ".aec" files
or the O2C objects. We just do not look big time enough for the
software creators doing plugins to fool with. That needs to be at the
feet of DataCAD.

Dana Smith
DSCS, Santa Fe

[Clayton]

Hi Dana,

H,mmm it is...!!!!
It seems your one of those power users that's invested a lot of time in DC
3D, so I wouldn't want to sway you otherwise.

However SU is King for me at the moment for 3D work, so each to his own I
guess.

Some can make all forms of CAD or non CAD software fly for Architectural
works, this chap has taken SU to another level.

https://plus.google.com/photos/102810828392851204700/albums/5312728763078205777?banner=pwa

Over & out,

Clayton.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Smith" <dsc...@gmail.com>
To: "Paul Nida" <prn...@verizon.net>; <dataca...@world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: DBUG> RE: DataCAD user friendliness


>I too find building models in DataCAD too easy and forthright to start
> fooling with SketchUp. I have been building everything in DC in 3D
> since I started with DC7.

----cut down----

> Dana Smith
> DSCS, Santa Fe

[Debbie at Sun Plans]

I think there was some confusion. I was not referring to the 02c viewer that
clients use but rather the 02c that you use directly in DataCAD. In any
case, the tone of "voice" used and assumptions made in the forum is a bit
disappointing. I do not find the 02C part of DataCAD out of the box user
friendly with o2c and there have been others that have agreed off forum. It
also not utter madness when it takes less of my time to do something. While
I do not doubt that there is a quicker way if/when I invest the time to
learn what that is, for the moment, it works best for me to export to
SketchUp to see my work where I know the tools intimately to view, rotate,
etc.

Sun Plans Inc.
Debbie Coleman, Architect, AIA, LEED Green Assoc.
deb...@sunplans.com

<I don't see what geek has to do with o2c.
I fail to see what can be quicker or more intuitive than o2c. It is manna
from heaven for totally non-savvy, non-tech-head clients for chrissakes. All
you have to do is click the icon and wiggle the mouse. What could be easier
than that? I suppose it is possible to be missing the viewer icon bar, but
going to the toolbars menu and recovering it would have to be a better
option than going to SketchUp to view the model every time. That is utter
madness.
About the only that can happen is that you get a bad view of the model
because there is a great swag of extraneous stuff that shouldn't be on the
screen. That has very little to do with o2c and rather a lot to do with bad
management - probably in the GTV department.
I would suggest that, if you want to work in 3D, you get into o2c. It really
isn't hard.

Nick Pyner[Sun Plans] >

[James Horecka]

I second Nick on this.

o2c very easy, once you get the hang of it.

I knocked-out a digital 3D model of a gnarly custom wood+steel
structure this morning, 7:10 AM to 7:40 AM, viewed in o2c, did a
screen capture and had that sucka plotted 48"x36" in time for a
dog+pony at 8:00, along with other 2D stuff I had to wrap up.

Practice practice practice builds easy, fluency, speed.

James Horecka, AIA
Architect

>>>>I don't see what geek has to do with o2c.

I fail to see what can be quicker or more intuitive than o2c. It is
manna from heaven for totally non-savvy, non-tech-head clients for
chrissakes. All you have to do is click the icon and wiggle the mouse.
What could be easier than that? I suppose it is possible to be missing
the viewer icon bar, but going to the toolbars menu and recovering it
would have to be a better option than going to SketchUp to view the
model every time. That is utter madness.

About the only that can happen is that you get a bad view of the model
because there is a great swag of extraneous stuff that shouldn't be on
the screen. That has very little to do with o2c and rather a lot to do
with bad management - probably in the GTV department.

I would suggest that, if you want to work in 3D, you get into o2c. It
really
isn't hard.

[Nick Pyner]

Pardon the bombast but there is no confusion here at this end. The o2c the
clients use works the same as the o2c you use directly.
If your clients are OK with doing that with your product but you are not,
they can't all be geeks and it is definitely time to ask some serious
questions.

Even if you are not alluding to your clients specifically, it will pay you
handsomely to question why you find it quicker to export to SketchUp. As I
said before, your problem is probably down to a simple management issue and
is easily fixed. If you are disinclined to do so, it might eventually come
out in the wash anyway, and I guess you will then see what utter madness it
truly was. When you do, this is something you might pass on to those others
off-forum who currently agree with you.

I further submit that, if you stay disinclined, you will probaly not be
fixing other problems that you and the rest of us don't (yet) know about. In
short, your o2c problem is just the canary in the coalmine.

O2c is one of DataCad's greatest assets. It provides all you need to check
the 3D work you are doing is kosher and, the more 3D work you do, the more
obviously an asset o2c becomes. The fact that you find it quicker to export
to SketchUp to view your model does nothing to lessen the madness. It is
merely an explanation as to why you keep on doing it.

Nick Pyner

Dee Why NSW

-----Original Message-----

From: Debbie at Sun Plans [mailto:deb...@sunplans.com]

I think there was some confusion. I was not referring to the 02c viewer that
clients use but rather the 02c that you use directly in DataCAD. In any
case, the tone of "voice" used and assumptions made in the forum is a bit
disappointing. I do not find the 02C part of DataCAD out of the box user
friendly with o2c and there have been others that have agreed off forum. It
also not utter madness when it takes less of my time to do something. While
I do not doubt that there is a quicker way if/when I invest the time to
learn what that is, for the moment, it works best for me to export to
SketchUp to see my work where I know the tools intimately to view, rotate,
etc.

[Michael Kriegh]

I generally go the same route as Debbie. I have never liked o2c for
anything more than quick checks on the 3d work. I haven't used it in
quite a while so perhaps its a better tool now. I know some have done
quite well with it. In the end, I think we gravitate to the tools that
work for us, hopefully after experimenting with the full tool kit.


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StudioMBK <http://studiombk.wordpress.com/>
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Follow StudioMBK <https://twitter.com/studio_mbk> on Twitter
917.837.1560

[James Horecka]

I've no issues with o2c.

 

For fun, I often include a cartoon RAT hiding in one of the bays between floor joists. Being adept at navigating in walk-thru mode, it's no sweat to cruise about and view said rat.

 

Heck, I've even included "telescopes" in my 3D models, which you can walk right up to and look into the eyepiece of.

 

I dig toolz. Learn to use. Practice. Become fluent. Elevate to art.

 

James Horecka, AIA
Architect

[Michael Kriegh]

I generally go the same route as Debbie. I have never liked o2c for
anything more than quick checks on the 3d work. I haven't used it in quite a while so perhaps its a better tool now. I know some have done quite well with it. In the end, I think we gravitate to the tools that work for us, hopefully after experimenting with the full tool kit.

--
Michael Kriegh,

StudioMBK <http://studiombk.wordpress.com/>
Like StudioMBK <http://www.facebook.com/Studio.MBK> on Facebook
Follow StudioMBK <https://twitter.com/studio_mbk> on Twitter
917.837.1560

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 9:18 NP wrote:

Pardon the bombast but there is no confusion here at this end. The o2c the
clients use works the same as the o2c you use directly.
If your clients are OK with doing that with your product but you are not,
they can't all be geeks and it is definitely time to ask some serious
questions.

Even if you are not alluding to your clients specifically, it will pay you
handsomely to question why you find it quicker to export to SketchUp. As I
said before, your problem is probably down to a simple management issue and
is easily fixed. If you are disinclined to do so, it might eventually come
out in the wash anyway, and I guess you will then see what utter madness it
truly was. When you do, this is something you might pass on to those others
off-forum who currently agree with you.

I further submit that, if you stay disinclined, you will probaly not be
fixing other problems that you and the rest of us don't (yet) know about.
In short, your o2c problem is just the canary in the coalmine.

O2c is one of DataCad's greatest assets. It provides all you need to check
the 3D work you are doing is kosher and, the more 3D work you do, the more
obviously an asset o2c becomes. The fact that you find it quicker to export
to SketchUp to view your model does nothing to lessen the madness. It is
merely an explanation as to why you keep on doing it.

[David Ramey]

OK, does o2c refresh automatically like it does in Spirit? Can you work with shaded objects as is? The version of o2c that DataCad uses dates back to 1999.

I think they have a pretty good Sun Shader that has possibilities to add to the 3d that DataCad already has. So if you are satisfied with something that was done in 1999, fine, but I think DataCad would like to be able to go further than that old 1999 code. Computers are fast enough now to do this as every other CAD program that has 3D in 2012 will do. I just bet that they may even be just about there. It will be interesting to see.

I have to click that icon everytime I make a change to a 3d model. It should at the very least update by itself everytime the wire frame model is changed.

DR

[James Horecka]

There's always room for improvement.

 

One of my catch phrases.

 

o2c has plenty of quirks and sucks in a hundred ways.

 

However, it also works just fine.

 

I'm all for improvements.

 

Note well: o2c is an Object Viewer. Hence its NAME: "Objects to See." Duh.

 

It is NOT an ideal viewer for architectural space.

 

I've written at length about this in the past. Mountains of prose, about how awful o2c is at this. And how it would be MUCH better to be an architectural space viewer like the engine that drives the video game "Spyro the Dragon," which totally kicks ass over o2c. Like, TOTALLY, dude. "Spyro the Dragon," at least a decade old, was far, far better than o2c. And a PROPER way to explore architectural work.

 

Viewing objects is soooooooooo very different from exploring architectural form and space. The writers of o2c totally do NOT "get" this.

 

However, that being said, I know what I "want" to achieve. Given the (crappy) tool that I have (o2c), I have practiced enough with it that I can get it to do what I want it to do. More or less. That is, I've found ways to make it "Spyro-like."

 

Practice practice practice.

 

James Horecka, AIA
Architect

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[Nick Pyner]

I agree with everybody, particularly with James about interiors, and I don't use it for rendering.  

But, for all its shortcomings, o2c is right up there with GTVs as one of DataCad's greatest assets, it works just fine, and beats the hell out of transferring to SketchUp just to view your model.

 

My only gripe with o2c is that the mouse buttons are wasted.  I don't want to put too much emphasis on the bleeding obvious, but a right click for exit wouldn't be a bad idea.....

 

Nick Pyner

Dee Why   NSW

-----Original Message-----
From: James Horecka [mailto:jhor...@verizon.net]

There's always room for improvement.

 

However, it also works just fine.

 

It is NOT an ideal viewer for architectural space. 

 

From: David Ramey datac...@gmail.com 

 

. It should at the very least update by itself everytime the wire frame model is changed. 

 

--  

-----Original Message-----

From: dataca...@googlegroups.com

[mailto:dataca...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Michael Kriegh

[SDES...@aol.com]

I have used o2c a LOT and find it's depth incredible for a variety of
applications.
o2c Interactive is a brilliant piece of software.
IMHO

_______________________________________________________________________
David K. Sargert, LEED AP

Design-Development Director
SAFFRON Group International
Houston, TX
505-573-9518 - Cell
_SaffronGroupInternational.com_
(http://www.saffrongroupinternational.blogspot.com/)





In a message dated 5/25/2012 3:00:25 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

mkr...@gmail.com writes:


I generally go the same route as Debbie. I have never liked o2c for
anything more than quick checks on the 3d work. I haven't used it in quite
a while so perhaps its a better tool now. I know some have done quite well
with it. In the end, I think we gravitate to the tools that work for us,
hopefully after experimenting with the full tool kit

[JAID]

JH wrote:

 

…Note well: o2c is an Object Viewer. Hence its NAME: "Objects to See." Duh…

 …Viewing objects is soooooooooo very different from exploring architectural form and space. The writers of o2c totally do NOT "get" this…

 

I think however that your first line above says it all, James. o2c says what it intends to be up front and does that pretty well.

 

While it can be and is used to investigate form and space from time to time especially with skilled use this also explains why it is reasonable for people to  step out to SU with varying frequency as that does  offer, in schematic form, a reasonable bite on form and space representation aiding more in its perception.

 

[JAID]

[Paul Nida]

As I have said, repeatedly, everybody should work the way they want to. Whatever floats your boat is fine with me. However, here is the question I have regarding this thread. Are you working in DataCAD and switching to SU to view it, or are you working and viewing in SU? If you are working and viewing in SU so be it. If you are modeling in DCAD and switching to SU to render it, fine, although I can think of free rendering software than SU, that is your choice. However, if you are doing all of your work in DCAD and using SU as a viewer and you keep making changes to the model in DCAD and switching to SU to view it and then going back to DCAD to make changes and re-exporting to SU to view it, that is just silly. And I don’t care who you are. Like I said, you can and should work however works best for you, but that doesn’t make that scenario any less silly. As a viewer, o2c is as good as SU. But as a modeler, it is not because you can’t model in o2c. Yes, you have to switch back and forth between DCAD and o2c. But since o2c works within DCAD that is far preferable to switching back and forth between DCAD and SU, if you are just using SU as the viewer.

 

As far as viewing is concerned, the two work very similar. The controls are very similar and the icons are even similar. You can rotate the model, pa,n zoom, walk thru, change your angle of viewing, etc. If you can use one as a viewer, there is no reason you can’t use the other. I have and do use both, and have no problem using either. While I prefer to model in DCAD some people in our office prefer to model in SU. We even have one guy who models in ACAD. Why? Because he is used to it and he knows the controls.

 

Use the software you prefer, however you want. If it gets the job done that is all that matters in the end. Although it might take longer, if it works for you, fine. But making a blanket statement that o2c is not user friendly is simply not true. o2c can’t do some things that SU can, but then it wasn’t meant to. SU can cast shadows and o2c can’t but then enter Sun Shader. 

 

From: David Ramey

Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 5:09 PM

To: Nick Pyner ; dataca...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: DBUG> RE: DataCAD user friendliness

 

OK, does o2c refresh automatically like it does in Spirit? Can you work with shaded objects as is? The version of o2c that DataCad uses dates back to 1999.

--

[James Horecka]

Yet, with practice, o2c is fine for exploring space and interiors. You get good at it.

 

I'm into "Ride Theory." Some of my digital 3D models even have "tracks" within them, indicating intended path of travel. Off we go!

 

James Horecka, AIA
Architect

From: JAID <i...@jaid.com>
To: 'James Horecka' <jhor...@verizon.net>; 'David Ramey' <datac...@gmail.com>; 'Nick Pyner' <npy...@tig.com.au>; dataca...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: DBUG> RE: DataCAD user friendliness

[Clayton]

Hi MK,

Yep, agree with you on that one, slightly different in my case, as just love
producing stuff in SU. I only export 2D plans from DC to SU to produce 3D
stuff anyway, so o2c is just a viewer for me that I don't use.

When & if DC ever gets the entire 3D "smarts" sorted to produce an entire
model of a building, i.e. "smart roof's etc, then I'd look to using DC for a
smart model by extracting 2D elements for construction doc's such as plans,
elevations & sections etc. & o2c may then be the way to go for an all in one
package.

Over & out,

Clayton.
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